Microsoft's $399 "ultimate" version of Windows Vista...yeah, RIGHT.

[Human Torch]

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Microsoft Windows Vista goes on sale at Amazon

Software giant still has not set a release date for the new version of Windows, which sits on more than 90 percent of the world's personal computers.

August 29 2006: 4:43 PM EDT

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/29/technology/vista_amazon.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

BOSTON (Reuters) -- Amazon.com has started taking early orders for Microsoft's long-delayed Windows Vista operating system, offering versions of the product from $100 to $399.

The retailer's Web site said the software will be available on Jan. 30, and an Amazon (Charts) spokesman said on Tuesday the date was an estimate based on informal conversations with Microsoft and others in the computer industry. Microsoft spokesman Lou Gellos declined to comment on Amazon's pre-sale, saying the software maker is still finalizing its pricing model. It has not set a release date for the new version of Windows, which sits on more than 90 percent of the world's personal computers.

Microsoft has repeatedly postponed the release of Windows Vista, which is already five years in the making. Quality assurance delays have put off the consumer version of Vista until early 2007 - after the crucial holiday shopping season. Vista is due to ship to corporate customers in November. Goldman Sachs analyst Rick Sherlund said in a note to clients that Amazon's pricing on high-end versions of the software was above his forecasts.

Vista will be sold in more versions than Microsoft's current Windows XP operating system, with different lines targeted at consumers and businesses. Amazon's pricing ranges from $100 for a basic upgrade version of Windows to $399 for a full "ultimate" version of the operating system, according to the retailer's Web site.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[thepurpose]

1. $399.00 WTF are they crazy. I know there are fools that will pay this

but I ain't one of them. I would go to Apple before I paid that price of an OS that will be hacked to deaht in a few days.

[tridim]

3. You might want to do some research on the new security in Vista

MS haters aren't going to be pleased. ;)

[thepurpose]

4. You know I heard that same line with XP. If you think their security is

going to be worth 399 then go ahead. I wish you much luck. Me, I'm look for some alternatives because they are out there.

[tridim]

9. I never said it was worth $400

I said I'm sticking with XP64 for a while.

When I do buy Vista in a few years I'll get it OEM for about $90.

[thepurpose]

11. Well that was my entire point. It's not worth $90.00 let alone $400.00

[tridim]

14. How do you know, have you used it?

The beta has been available for a long time.

[Nomad559]

18. Don't waste your time

with him Tridim, he's just another anti-Microsoft ******

Windows Vista Is very secure, Vista Is built on the Windows Server 2003 kernel, and Windows Server 2003 has proven to be a very secure operating system.

?click

:)

[tridim]

24. Maybe you can answer this question..

The 3D windows, can they be rotated in any arbitrary direction on any axis?

I ask because I use a Wacom graphics tablet and I'm the type of artist who likes to rotate the paper as I draw. I have this dream where I rotate my tablet and the application window rotates with it. I'm guessing if MS has the angles hard-coded they'll still be rotatable via software.

[Nomad559]

28. Check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=240x1109

:)

[Deja Q]

62. The "security" is worthless. That's why they sell OneCare(tm) on the side/

But Microsoft is a trusted, wholesome name. That's why it's sold so well. :eyes:

Vista is XP with shiny, CPU-intensive graphics and a lot taken from Linux and OS X. But with much higher system requirements. Sod that.

[Greyhound]

83. I've heard the same thing from M$ with every release since the

first windoze version that sort of worked 3.1.

There seems to be no end to the gullibility of the microserfs. :argh: :dunce: :freak: :argh:

[Poiuyt]

6. Why? Will the security be as good as Macs are now?

[tridim]

7. Mac, Linux and Windows are all insecure in similar ways

It's just that there's no point in targeting only 3% of the market.

Add a free firewall and anti-virus software and Windows becomes very secure. You seem to be stuck back in the mid-90's, things have changed.

[stevekatz]

32. Nothing says it better then this

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060513

[tridim]

37. Those ads are so frustrating

Because I really enjoy them, but they are so dishonest and misleading.

They actually claim that Windows can only produce black and white pie graphs! Does anyone still believe that crap?

[Touchdown]

39. They didn't claim that.

The Dozer merely used a gray pie chart, because his family vacation wasn't important enough for color. Nobody on that commercial "actually claimed" that Doze's pie charts are only B&W. Hyperbolic much?:eyes:

[tridim]

46. It's exactly what they implied

Make excuses much?

[Touchdown]

74. Implying and "actually claiming" are 2 different things.

Learn narrative context lately? What are they saying that's false? Can Windows NOT make grayscale pie charts?

[Touchdown]

38. No they're not, but it's nice to know the myth is still alive.

:hi:

[RoyGBiv]

52. Actually, they're not ...

Saying that they're all insecure in "similar ways" shows a rather glaring misunderstanding of the security problems in each.

I say this not to suggest that each doesn't have its on security issues because they certainly do, but they are different kinds of issues on each.

[tridim]

55. Please, educate me.

Every OS is subject to a simple DOS attack for instance, and user error is common across all three platforms and can easily compromise security.

[Solon]

70. Only if allowed...

That's part of Windows' problems, the default user accounts are given root(administration) priveleges, and indeed, NEEDS those priveleges just to run video games or other applications. Neither Linux nor MacOS X allows that, at the very least. I mean, you actually would have to login as root on these systems to damage the system itself, the worst you can do is kill off your own userspace, bad in itself, but the rest of the OS is still intact.

If I had a "Family Computer" one where more than one person is on it, I would run either Linux or Mac on it, not Windows. The reason is simple, few in the family are "computer smart" and may screw up Windows, but with the other two, I can set it up really easily where they CAN'T mess it up.

[Solon]

68. Excuse me, but neither Linux nor Mac needs normal users to be Root...

just to run VIDEO GAMES. Windows XP, in particular, is bad at this, I put the blame at about half for Microsoft, and half for Windows game designers. I mean, USER access should be the default, not root, please!

[LifeDuringWartime]

77. good article

"Is Windows inherently more vulnerable to malware attacks than OS X?"

http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisemac/archives/2006/08/is_windows_inhe.html

[The Revolution]

48. You're telling me

I got Vista Beta 2 installed at home. If anything, it's too secure. I had to go to safe mode just to delete some files because I didn't have the proper permissions. Reminded me a lot of Unix/Linux :)

I've heard things are better in the more recent builds though. Less popup questions and such, and more stable overall. I'm actually looking forward to the final release though. I know I'll be getting it for sure, just for DirectX 10 if nothing else.

[tridim]

2. I'm sticking with XP 64-bit edition for a while

No need to abandon a good thing.

The only good thing about Vista is that it'll force more companies to release 64 bit versions of their software. Actually the other good thing is the new network stack which has already been tested and approved by the independent hacking community.

I predict when I'm ready to upgrade it'll be about half that price, and even cheaper OEM.

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. I'm still on Windows 2000 - the best OS they ever made

:)



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[ramapo]

10. Me too

Likely to be my last MS OS too. I've migrated to MAC OS except for one last PC. It'd be gone if only I didn't have so much HW/SW stuff that doesn't run on the MAC

[Junkdrawer]

12. Amen. n/t

[tridim]

19. I would have agreed with you about a month ago.

But I'm sold on XP-64.. XP was just "meh, whatever" IMO.

I recently spent a whopping $280 on a new MB, 1 gig ram and an Athlon 64 x2. It's easily the best $280 I've ever spent. I went from a single 32bit processor that tended to overheat on a daily basis, to a dual-core 64-bit processor that uses about half the wattage. The performance is stunning and my computer is actually considered green!

[mainegreen]

42. Preach!

[wakeme2008]

8. Amazon must think they will get a discount

from http://news.com.com/Microsoft+Canada+leaks+Vista+pricing/2100-1016_3-6110267.html?tag=nefd.pop




The real question is what version will MS sell to Dell and others and at what price??????????

[William769]

13. For people illiterate here about Windows Vista

The majority of people will only need the basic version which of course is about a 100 bucks.

I have been Beta testing Windows Vista (ulitmate version) hey it was free what can I say.

Just today I donloaded the prerelease of RC1.

I LOVE WINDOWS VISTA!

[Human Torch]

15. So the obvious question is...

..."WHY do you love it?"

:toast:

[William769]

17. First thing I fell in love with is Windows media center

It comes in Windows Vista. Windows Aero is way to cool. Live taskbar thumbnails, Windows Flip and Windows Flip 3D. Windows Sidebar & gadgets is a computer geeks wet dream! :)

[tridim]

20. Just to make you mad. :)

[William769]

22. You so bad.

:rofl:

[Nomad559]

16. I am also using the pre release of RC1

Build 5536

?click

:)

[William769]

23. I take it your happy with it?

[Nomad559]

26. Very happy with It

I haven't had any problems with this build as yet, BUT ... It's a beta, I may have some Issues with It later.

So far, this build of Windows Vista performs better than my SuSE Linux system (Build 10.1)

?click

?click

?click

:)

[banana republican]

34. better than SUSE 10.1

at about 7X the price at CompUSA.

Or 1000x the price if you download from en.opensuse.org.

P.T.Barnum was right....

[Nomad559]

43. I have never paid one cent

for a Linux Distro, and I have never paid more than $50 dollars for a copy of XP Pro.

You are correct on the P.T.Barnum quote, anybody that would buy a copy of Linux (Any Distro) Is a fool, you truly do get what you pay for.

I've been beta testing several Linux Distros for years, Linux still has a few problems, It's not a stable O/S ( I get to many crashes) and far to many annoying bugs In It. BUT, I feel that Linux has the potential of becoming a great Operating System someday. But having said that, I suspect Linux will never become a serious threat to Microsoft.

Why! ... the Linux community needs to clean house, get rid of ALL the Linux "Fanboys"
Where are the Linux Geeks?

The reason more people don't try Linux Is because of the Linux fanboys, the "Smugness", the "Arrogant" attitude of the Linux fanboys turns people off from trying Linux.

;-)

[RoyGBiv]

49. *** Yawn ***

Yeah. Those Microsoft forums don't have a single fanboy in them, and no one that uses Windows is in the least bit arrogant. They're saints, in fact.

[Nomad559]

63. When did I ever make the statement

that Microsoft had no fanboys?

I suspect their are hundreds of thousands of Microsoft fanboys, and many are just as smug and Arrogant as the Linux and Apple fanboys.

But In all my years, I have never encountered a fanboy that was as obsessed with a particular operating system or browser than a Linux or Apple fanboy. The Linux and Apple fanboys truly do believe that they are superior to all others, the Linux and Apple fanboys see themselves as some kind of supergeek, but the truth Is, they are not Geeks, they are Insecure fanboys, nothing more.

But that's just my opinion of them, and "My Opinion" Is just that, my opinion and nothing more.


What is the difference between a Fanboy and a Geek?

A True Geek Never Would Have Found Offense By My Post Above.

;)

[RoyGBiv]

67. You didn't ... forgot my smiley.

I was at work and got cut off in mid-statement. Shouldn't have posted actually because I hadn't read the thread, just a couple comments from people who were posting in it who tend to have intelligent things to say. I confess to being somewhat taken aback that you believe I was offended, until I read the previous exchange. Still, bad context for my statement on my part.

I was not offended, rather amused.

And don't get me started on MAC fanboys. We'll be here all week. :-)

[Touchdown]

75. That's right. No fanboys in the MS forums.

Our wandering friend of half a thou sixty-minus-one, is too busy trolling the Mac and Linux forums, dissing both of them, and hot linking to porno sites with Mac bashing videos (although the iPad maxi pad replacement was funny). He's got no time to worship at the altar of DLL. I hope they pay him well for that.

[Solon]

81. What the hell are you doing to crash Linux?

By the way, are you talking kernel panics, or just weird program behavior? I mean, I have heard many complaints, valid ones, against Linux, from Hardware support(rapidly improving), to Software support(where are the games?), and usability(how the FUCK do you install this?), but stability? Not a peep.

[RoyGBiv]

84. I was similarly curious ...

As per a previous note, I got cut off in mid-message. I was going to ask about this.

I suspect this has something to do with people's (mis)perception of what an operating system is. I have never managed to crash Linux. I know it can crash, but in normal operation, you almost have to be trying to do it. I crashed X a few times after messing with configs, and I did something rather stupid once that made me forcibly restart X else sit there for several hours while what I'd done worked itself out. As you note, some programs exhibit strange behaviors, but that's the individual program, not Linux.

And Linux has allowed me to recover from problems, without data loss, that would have resulted in a disc wipe and reinstall of Windows. As a recent example, while chewing on a database about 2 gigs in size, the program doing the chewing ran across a physical error on my hard drive. Naturally, it complained. The program itself got hung up so badly that I couldn't even kill it with a signal 9. But, I was able to open a terminal, forcibly unmount the partition with the problem, run some data recovery software, and get everything back ... all without rebooting. It took a long time for the data recover to finish, but it fixed everything. The equivalent of what had happened was destroying a FAT.

Try that on Windoze.

[Solon]

85. Everything you say is true...

If Firefox crashes(haven't had that happen since 1.5), you are NOT going to lose your shell, nor will it require a reinstall/formatting of the harddrive. However, if IE crashes, badly, especially when doing something like copying/moving files, you can get a corrupt filesystem, really quickly. Granted, since XP, this is thankfully rare, but 98 was especially bad with shit like this. However, XP is still prone to trojans, viruses, etc. because someone had the bright idea of letting the file manager/shell merge with the internet browser. Add in activeX and you have a recipe for disaster.

Now I will say that Microsoft is trying to alleviate the problem somewhat, but they still haven't gotten rid of IE as part of the OS, rather than just another application that is not needed for OS operation.

Another thing I should note, one of the common complaints, that Linux has usability problems is actually beginning to be a thing of the past. In fact, I find installing Ubuntu Linux easier than installing XP. Especially the latest version, 6.06. I mean, in Windows XP, to install straight from CD, it loads the installer on boot from CD, then tell it to partition/format, etc. then you reboot at least 2 times(three if there is a hangup setting up the start menu and personalized settings). Depending on the speed of the computer, it can take well over an hour, and you STILL aren't done, I had XP boot into VGA mode, 640X480 with 16 colors, believe me, that isn't pretty. So then I either have to hunt my graphics driver CD, or go on the net(after installing the drivers for the ethernet adapter), then reboot again, after installation of that. Then the Sound Card is next, hunt for CD, or find it on the net. After about 2hours, I'm done, and glad I finished. Talk about effort!

On Ubuntu, let's see, boot the Live CD install, tested the system before the install, this could take a while, if you have fun. :) Double click on the Install Icon on the Desktop, a nice graphical installer pops up, then I answer the standard questions, where to install, partition, username, then it copies the system to the hardrive. I then remove the CD and reboot. System started up, at 1024X768 with 32bit color with full sound, only problem was that I didn't have hardware acceleration. So I fired up Synaptic, then downloaded the Nvidia drivers from that, typed in ONE command "sudo nvidia-glx-config enable", then hit CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE. Xorg restarted in a couple of seconds, and boom, everything works. Total time, 30 minutes tops, and oddly enough, EVERYTHING JUST WORKED!

Now, for people with odd configurations, this may not be as easy, but I built my own computer, and installed Ubuntu on a Compaq Pesario(file server), and tested the live CD with Dells, etc. with no problems, internet, sound, everything just worked, I'm frankly amazed at its hardware compatibility.

[RoyGBiv]

86. I agree ...

This is as good a place as any to offer the rant that's been brewing in my head for the past 24 hours.

I build systems for people sometimes. Last night I got all the parts for one someone had asked me to build and put it together, after which I went about installing the OS and getting everything working. This was a very low-budget system for someone who needed a computer but couldn't afford anything that was being sold in the stores except for the really cheap pieces of crap, and they didn't want to settle for a piece of crap that would break down in a month. So, I did the parts shopping and managed to put together a full, 64 bit system for under $400, operating system included, but they simply refused to consider Linux. (I don't argue, just do what I'm told.) Because of the off-brand hardware I was getting, I expected to have some problems when I installed Windows, but never did I expect this level of problems.

To make what could be a very long story a bit shorter, I got frustrated with the initial attempt to install Windows and threw in a Knoppix LiveCD just to see if I could do anything, i.e. to see if the parts were bad. After the frustration I had experienced over previous couple hours, I almost fainted in delight when Knoppix booted to a desktop with the sound, network, and graphics (minus 3D acceleration) working perfectly. So, I played around with that awhile just to make myself feel better and to determine if I'd built a real computer or a doorstop.

And here's the kicker. One of the problems I had experienced with the Windows install was formatting the hard drive. It managed to complete this, once, and then halted due to some error expressed in hex terms I didn't understand just by looking at it. When I tried to restart the install after that apparently successful attempt at just a quick format, the installer told me the parition was corrupted. (That was actually what inspired the test with the LiveCD. I thought either the hard drive or the IDE controller was bad on the mobo.) Before shutting down and trying Windows again, I decided to play with QParted, which until then I didn't realize offered the option of formatting in NTFS format. I selected that option and ten seconds later, the hard drive was formatted.

I restarted the Windows install, using the existing partition rather than allowing the installer to do the formatting, and everything proceeded perfectly. A half hour later, I had a working system with Windows XP installed.

Of course, it wasn't completely working. The sound didn't work. I couldn't set the graphics display to anything higher than 800x600 in 16 bit mode. The network refused to connect. I spent the next hour or so finding drivers, saving them to my USB drive, then copying them to the new machine. (I was simply thankful Windows did recognize that.) Finally, at about 2am, 5 hours after I'd started this process, I had a working system that was actually working.

The next time someone tells me that the problem with Linux is that it doesn't work "out of the box" I'm going to slap them.

[Solon]

87. The key is this...

Most computer users have NO experience in installing Operating Systems, they buy a computer, prebuilt, by either US or some manufacturer(Dell, Gateway, Apple), and with the OS pre-installed. They have no idea what it takes to install Windows and make sure everything WORKS. I've installed operating system and built computers since I was 14 years old, with a 386 I built myself out of some parts a buddy was selling me, I then put Dos 6.22 and Windows 3.1 on it. That was a struggle, and the system was slow as all hell. Work up from there. I installed '95, '98, XP(skipped ME, thank the Gods), and even Windows 2000 RC1 that I got for free as a beta tester on about 3 different Mobo/CPU setups. I don't buy "whole" computers, if I can reuse a part, I will, I'll sell off my old Mobo/CPU/RAM(if needed), and use my saved up money in addition to the money I get from the sale to buy a new Mobo/CPU/RAM(if needed). To give an example, my diskette drive, right now, is from that old 386, its almost 20 years old, and finally, just last year, crapped out(kept corrupting disks). Good thing I don't need it anymore.

I upgrade slowly, but only if needed, I'll recycle what I can to save costs, I have yet to buy a monitor, the joys of having a best friend that cleaned offices that threw out perfectly good computer equipment. Anyways, so I upgrade slowly, I'll get a new Graphics Card or Sound Card for about 50 bucks a pop, then, maybe a year or two later, a new Mobo may be called for, that's the "major" upgrade. In between 1995 and 2006, I only bought two cases, the second was required for ATX compatibility with the new Mobo I was getting. I have yet to spend more than 300 bucks for an upgrade, I went with cheaper AMD chips, and probably not going to change anytime soon.

Anyways, all but Windows 2000 were a pain to install. By the way, this brings up another rant, prebuilt computers are CRAP!!!! My Grandmother has a Gateway that my Uncle bought her, anyways, about a year ago, he bought her a CD burner so she can backup a bunch of data onto it. Did he install it, no, I had to do that. So anyways, I came over, unscrewed the case, removed the Zip drive that took up the other 5 1/2 spot, then tried to put in the CD burner. Now, I already had to rearrange the interior of this thing, the hard drive was mounted sideways, which interfered with the IDE cables, etc. So I slid in the CD burner, and about a quarter of an inch of it was sticking out, and it wouldn't go in any further. I look in the case again, and low and behold, the fucking MOTHERBOARD was in the way. They did NOT make up enough room for this damned CD burner, or indeed, ANY CD/DVD upgrade. Talk about poor design. I still hooked it up, and it worked beautifully on her computer, if it looks a tad ugly, oh well. I told my grandmother that if she ever wants an upgrade, call me first, I'll be HAPPY to build her a computer.

And don't get me started on Dells, or those Gods be damned E-Machines that people bought in the 1990s, poor design, hell, I require a crowbar to open those damned things up!

[RoyGBiv]

88. That makes sense ...

I don't know why I'd never thought of it in those terms before, but I hadn't. Not since my TRS-80 COCO days have I had a computer on which I didn't install the OS. I personally think of the ability to install the OS and make it work as part of owning a computer, and perhaps that is arrogant of me. This explains why, aside from my mucking around with themes, my mother didn't realize for a week that she had a Linux system, and then only because she tried to install some Windows program she'd downloaded. (The program had a Linux version, and I was able to teach her how to install that with no problems. This is one of those things where I feel like saying, "If my *mother* can do it ...")

I have to slightly disagree on the subject of E-Machines. I love 'em. I love 'em because several of the people who bought them got so fed up with them they ended up coming to me, paid me to build them a new system, then gave me their old E-Machine system, which I could harvest for parts. Got a great paperweight I made out of a CPU/Heatsink combo from one of them. :evilgrin:

[pimpbot]

21. People pay for Windows?

:hippie:

[zulchzulu]

25. Do you get a big can of Raid with each purchase?

I have no plans on updating to Vista for at least 10 service packs later...

[TahitiNut]

27. "Quality assurance delays"??? Bullshit!

As a long-time professional in software engineering, I can say with complete confidence that there is NO SUCH THING AS A QUALITY ASSURANCE DELAY!!! There're quality shortfalls and late software engineering changes, but the scapegoating of the quality assurance function is one of the worst corruptions of the software engineering process.

The time it takes to complete a software assurance function is directly proportional to the quality of the software turned over to the QA team. The more bugs and the longer the engineering people take to fix those bugs, then the longer it takes to perform QA.

Don't EVER let anyone tell you there are "delays" in quality assurance. That's a lie. It's one of the four big lies ... right after "the check is in the mail" and before "I'll respect you in the morning."

[tridim]

29. But you have to assume they're working on compatibility issues

Hardware, software and driver. I would consider that a QA process.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. Quality is building it into the system, not about fixing it at the end

The quality assurance team is merely pointing out deficiences that could have and should have been addressed at day one. A quality product breezes through quaility checks like a hot knife through butter. Products that can't make it through QA without years of rewrites and fixes are not usually as good as they could be.



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[Beelzebud]

36. It's an OS not an app......

[TahitiNut]

41. Makes no difference

It's elitist/macho nonsense to claim that an OS is somehow not subject to the same disciplines of engineering. I've done software engineering at the firmware, OS, systems software and applications levels for years. I wrote operating systems software at levels closer to the hardware, using machine languages that today's "sofware engineers" would be helpless with - without the huge suite of "tools" and scaffolding they're accustomed to. (Most of those calling themselves "software engineers" today are not much more than what I'd call "script kiddies," merely going through the motions of using canned packages.)

TANSTAAFL.

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. Me too... what Tahiti nut said

Been there done that too :) My first machine was a Motorola 6502 on a bare motherboard with no operating system, no hard drive, no floppy drive and no tape drive. Every program was written in machine code on a typewriter and hand typed into the machine each time you wanted to run it. The display was an 8 digit LED bank and if you wanted to see the results of your code, if more than just a single line output, you put a scope on the PIO.

I'm much happier using .net 2.0 nowadays - it's SO much less tedious :)



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[tridim]

47. Have you ever written an OS that supports millions of software packages

and thousands of hardware permutations? Not many people have.

[TahitiNut]

51. Isn't it nice they can rely on a BIOS?

There is nothing about the scope of the OS that precludes effective quality assurance - and, if anything, makes such quality assurance disciplines even more necessary.

[tridim]

54. Wait, I thought we were talking about reasons for the Vista delay

You and I both know QA, QC and public beta testing all take time. All I'm saying is that MS is taking it's time because they MUST have 99% of existing hardware and software and all the device drivers working perfectly by the release date. It's not easy, especially since there's a 32 bit x86 emulator involved.

QA in the PC world is a moving target. They're just trying to get it as perfect as is possible.

[RoyGBiv]

56. Question ...

How many *device drivers* would you say Microsoft is working on with Vista?

[tridim]

59. All of them

In coordination with hardware manufacturers.

The video driver and networking is 100% new.

[RoyGBiv]

65. All of them ...

<backs away slowly>

[Solon]

72. LOL!

The most Microsoft does is TEST some drivers, and they are apparently "Locking down" on unsigned drivers for Vista.

[TahitiNut]

58. Microsoft's fundamental problem is their long-time failure to maintain ...

... rigor in software (and hardware) interface standards. It's a corruption that the Big Boys fall prey to quite easily, in thinking they can lock out the competition, or tilt the playing field. They've incorporated 'application dependencies' internal to their operating systems software. (Two words: Internet Explorer. Other examples are abundant.) Historically (which is what creates "legacy" problems), they've not only exploited (in their applications software) side-effects and 'cheats' ... they've short-sightedly and improperly defined the various functional interfaces, both internally and externally.

"Pay me now or pay me later" ... and since they choose to "externalize" the costs of such engineering "cheats," they scapegoat QA when it's really a FAILURE to QA.

My original quibble is in blaming QA for "delays" -- when it's actually the absense of validatable and verifiable interface specifications and requirements. That's an engineering problem, not a QA "delay."

[wakeme2008]

60. Ah,,, when the I/O New PSW points to your code

:evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

61. 0C3 abend (ROFL!)

I can't tell you how that brings back memories. :rofl: Sheesh! It's been YEARS! DECADES! And I still seem to have the fragments of memories laying dormant in my skull sponge - I wuz a BAL "guru," able to write armored, bullet-proof code to do anything I freaking wanted. (That's why they wanted me in the Audit Department, actually. I was honest.)

I played 'games' in OS/3x0 (in the MFT/MVT days and later) that G-d was afraid to play. I wrote software that built channel programs with strategically-placed TICs that went on f-o-r-e-v-e-r as a way of spooling on a stripped-down 360 to the ol' 1403N1 printer ... and had to be careful not to drive it so hard it broke print chains (harmonics, you know). I used DEB extents (with IO appendages) and some of the anomalies of memory (mis)management to give my emergency utility programs "supervisor state" (masked from interrupts, of course) so they could do anything they damned well pleased. I wrote system crash recovery utilities that went in and did the scut work on files (clean up and VTOC management) that the access method software got interrupted doing. (In the meantime, I wrote a little utility that opened the disc drawers on removable DASD drives when the operator was in the aisle - trapping him between open drawers. A 'joke' that became almost famous in my day.)

Gawd! I *loved* playing around in that OS ... and HASP. It was my Disneyland - new rides around every turn. (I actually DREAMED in BAL sometimes.) Years later, when I was doing 'consulting' at IBM's Santa Teresa Labs, after "object-only" policies were in place, I saw that some of the old code was still laying around in VM - many, many generations later - code that I'd patched or did APARs on. It was soooo nostalgic.

[wakeme2008]

64. Ah the pleasures of writing in assembly language.

But then again there was Jovial :evilgrin: OK that an old Military joke.... I think....

After the military I ended up as a MFT System's Programmer at a bookkeeping firm in Tampa. From there to Paradyne working on their channel extention product. One of the packages I help write added multiple console support to DOS/VS before IBM ever thought to do it. That program was the one that the I/O New PSW pointed to my code.

But then I FOUND Unix.... :rofl:

While I am working on a new system at Norfork Southern RR, one of my cruising (ship) buddy in support keeps giving me the eye and asking "do you really know assembly language?"...... LOL he just converted a PL/I program to Cobol... Seems they are having a hard time finding PL/I ppl.... Don't know why.....

Remember reading "The Zen of Assembly Language Programming" and saving notes of ways and instructions that do things fast...

Shit there is still large pieces of HASP in IBM newest and greats JES xxx.

[Tesha]

80. "Do you really know assembly language???"

> While I am working on a new system at Norfork Southern RR,
> one of my cruising (ship) buddy in support keeps giving me
> the eye and asking "do you really know assembly language?"......

The correct answer, of course, is:

"Why yes, quite a few!" ;)

Tesha

[wakeme2008]

82. I know Nothing....

:)

Unless you have the big bucks.... I always have a price :rofl:

[TahitiNut]

40. You got it. QA is not QC or testing.

QA is about the engineering process and ensuring that the process identifies and achieves the functional goals. It's not about testing, per se, but IS about ensuring that disciplined tests (independent assessments) are performed to verify the function performs as required. The key (buzz-)words are "verification and validation" and the letter "V" is often used to graphically depict the matching analysis and synthesis (two arms of the "V") which, when performed and managed properly, will guarantee that the product is exactly what's desired.

I fought the educational battle for years before ISO-9000 and even before "structured" approaches and even before the "TQM" days. The absolutely FACT of the matter is that the product WILL accurately represent the process. If the process is flawed, then the product if flawed. There's not a damned thing in the product that's not the direct result of the process. If the process is performed correctly, the product will be exactly what's desired.

[MsUnderstood]

30. I began researching a mac

Recently upon making a new laptop decesion I started researching a mac. I'm an IT professional and don't have trouble with the Windows Whines that accompany the software but had seen so many good things about the mac so I investigated.

Turns out the mac computer has a significant problem that is being pretty much ignored: random shutdown of the notebook.

Google the words macbook sudden shutdown and take a look at the forum sites:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-19,GGLJ:en&q=macbook+sudden+shutdown

Go to Amazon and read the customer reviews.

For all of you so hip on Mac and its benefits, pushing it to consumers fed up with Micro$oft, don't forget to warn users about this crucial issue. You think a PC was hard to fix, wait til you get the mac and gotta ship it off cause yo have no repair nearby.

So to sum up a mac:

Has less inexpensive software options than windows (I mean like the $5 bargin software to write a will at Office depot and the shareware avialable on the internet).

Has fewer repair locations

Has a significant hardware issue not being addressed

Matches perfectly with your I-Pod

[The Anti-Neo Con]

31. That's too much $, for real!

If you really want it, just download it off a torrent site.

Cost: $0.00

[banana republican]

33. Linux: I am in the process of

moving everything that I can over to Linux.

It is so similar toe Windoz that I wonder if MS has not pirated part of the open source software for its own use. I think it has ... especially with respect to windoz xp.

The look and feel of Linux is almost the same as that of Windoz.

It shouldn't taake anyone more that 4 to 6 hours to learn the differences as a user. A superuser will take much more time...

[RoyGBiv]

50. Aqua ...

As one example, the new eye-candy that's a part of Aqua came from an idea that grew out of FOSS development. MS threw money at it and developed a scaled down version of what will eventually be possible. XGL with Compiz is the current OSS equivalent, developed from the same idea. Buggy as all hell, but it is incredibly cool when you get it to work.

As for your other point, I installed a Linux distro on my mother's computer, skinned it to look like WinXP with what I said were a few eye-candy modifications, and it took her over a week to notice it wasn't Windows.

[Solon]

66. I think you meant Aero, Aqua is Mac OSX's interface...

Windows XP's interface is called Luna, as far as I know. Also, XGL with Compiz is stable(And themable now!), as far as I can tell, been running it, on Ubuntu Linux, for the past few months, and given my system's modest specs, it runs REALLY WELL. Using my graphics card for the interface actually sped it up! Considering this is a AthlonXP 1.25 GHz PC, with only a 128 MB GeForce 4 card in it, that is impressive!

I have Windows XP, on a second hard drive, boot into it about once a week, just to do updates, don't even know WHY I keep it around, won't even play DVDs anymore. By the way, XGL is loads better with movies now, even on my system, I can run a DVD, straddling 2 workspaces, at full speed with no slowdowns.

As far as Vista is concerned, let's see, its XP with a pretty interface, oh, and DRM, thanks but no thanks.

[RoyGBiv]

69. Sorry ... I did.

I have no idea why, but I continually get the words themselves mixed up all the time.

I'll defer to your knowledge of XGL and Compiz. I messed with it at a very early stage on an ATI card, and let's just say I had issues. :-) Got it to work just fine and didn't experience the kind of problems I expected (crashes) while I was playing around, but it slowed everything to a crawl when I did something that used the graphics hardware, such as playing a movie. (I assumed it was an ATI driver issue actually.)

I decided to stop playing with it much until I get my new system finished in a couple weeks, which will have a GeForce in it.

I echo your thoughts on Vista. Everything that approached being innovative has been taken out of it, so it pretty much is as you describe. It does have some security improvements, but a lot of what is being offered as better security is in fact DRM.

[Solon]

71. Ugh, ATI...

I have an Nvidia card, and Nvidia at least actually provides DECENT drivers for Linux. Actually, my desktop looks pretty good right now, this link shows 3 different themes with various programs running, all from my computer, BTW:

http://webpages.charter.net/solon7766/Desktops/

[DireStrike]

44. LOL. I'll install it on my $599 PS3.

Guess I'll be sticking with my pirated 2k pro. At least, till I break down and pirate XP.

[BlueJazz]

53. Even being a Microsoft Engineer and all that crap, I don't....

...understand why someone would "upgrade" their system from XP.

What the hell would be the point?

If your system works don't screw with it....

And Yes...I run Linux also.

[ToeBot]

78. opps, mis post

[NNN0LHI]

57. Really happy with this Windows XP Media Center Version

It has run flawlessly so far. Not like the Windows 98 I was running until last week. That was a real horror show.

Don

[Solon]

73. OK, this is fucked up...

Home Basic upgrade is basically Windows XP, no Aero interface, no HD media support, and its a HUNDRED BUCKS(Upgrade).

Home "Premium" edition is the same as Basic, but with the Aero interface and HD media support, and its 160 bucks(upgrade).

I think someone(customer) is being ripped off here!

[oc2002]

76. The $399 version will be for database servers, or somesuch thing mostly

Not something the average user needs, mostly for high end database servers or even some web servers.

[ToeBot]

79. The pricing structure for the various versions is about the same as XP

How many people buy a license for a full version anyway, about no one. You either buy an upgrade or get the OS included with a new computer. If you need a reason to hate Vista (or Microsoft), try bitching about the DRM infection built in to OS and the DRM crippled hardware it requires.