I can assure you Hilary Clinton will never be President , thank goodness.

[CollegeDUer]

Over the past few months I've been really rooting for Jonathan Tasini, a very progressive Democrat challenging Hilary in the Primary (I'm not even in NY, though, so it's more or less a cheer-up call than anything else).

Many have attacked me viciously for this stance, calling me a Green or some far-leftist, etc, etc.

Well, I have a question for you:

Is it so bad to practice democracy?

A year ago I saw Hilary give an address at Agnes Scott College. She spoke of "womens' rights" being helped along "by our soldiers" -- of Iraqi women being "liberated" in the New Iraq. A few months later I witnessed the head of the FWCUI, the largest Iraqi union group, Falah Iwan tell me that womens rights had been pushed "back past the 1950's."

I was never a huge fan of Hilary before, but during these moments I truly realized where she stands.


She spends her time with the hyper-rich constantly. She's at multimillionaire luncheons and fundraisers with Rupert Murdoch while Tasini is marching with striking workers. She pays lip service to a few liberal causes and then goes into Congress and decides to not even mention the issues her constituents are worried about. She has a decent approval rating -- but why wouldn't she? Voters see the only alternative as a Republican (few know of Tasini because he doesn't have the money to campaign like her).

Tasini is running the Wellstone way: "Vote for What You Believe In" Like Wellstone he has spent his life fighting for working people here and abroad. Like Wellstone he fought the cuts in social services when even the Dems in Congress strongly supported them, he criticizes the Israeli atrocities against Palestinians, he believes strongly in grassroots policy.

Hilary -- she just doesn't. What are her accomplishments on behalf of any progressive cause? Lip service?

I know I'm going to be barraged with statistics and facts about how liberal she votes, and how only the far left thinks she isn't leftist enough. Well I'm proudly that kind of "far left" if that is true. She doesn't believe in what I believe in or do what I think needs to be done -- so I disagree with her and find many of her votes to be fundamentally unjust. And I'm going to speak up against that! People NEED choice, but Hilary won't debate Tasini (who has much over the poll numbers needed to enter NY1's debates but not the money) because she doesn't WANT people to have an alternative. She doesn't want single payer healthcare or quick withdrawal from Iraq or to respect the rights of Palestinians or third worlders slaving in our sweatshops. She doesn't stand by the poor and downtrodden. That's not her game.

And this Clinton election push -- I say we kill it now. I personally as well as every informed progressive will not be going out for Hilary. I believe in personal responsibility. She voted for the IWR unapologetically (but don't be surprised if she later "comes out against the war" as some kind of campaign smear). People are responsibile for their actions. She is responsible for authorizing the President to embark on an illegal war of aggression. That is a war crime. I hold her responsible.

And the middle and right wing of the country WON'T vote for her. They have this mentality based on 0 facts whatsoever that she's some kind of far-left communist bat out of hell waiting to turn America into the next Soviet Union. It'll be the most horrific election loss in history. She'll get maybe 30% of the vote.

So I ask DU: Isn't it time to form a new front against ALL Democrats you disagree with, to replace them with people you find more acceptable? Isn't that democracy? Shouldn't EVERY election have incumbents fighting for their seats -- because God knows few of them are truly doing what the people want?

I'm embracing democracy here. How about you?

[mnhtnbb]

1. I'm with you. Hillary would make George McGovern look like a winner

[CollegeDUer]

4. Not my votes; not the rural votes; not the votes of anyone aside from the

small constituency she has of people who basically just like her because:

A) She's a woman in politics

B) She has the name "clinton"

If she had any decent accomplishments on behalf of ordinary Americans I'd maybe consider her, even if she was a longshot in any type of election. But I won't consider someone who has nothing but star power -- no more Governators.

[rinsd]

26. Again, ANY facts to back up this assertion?

Seriously.

Now I am attempting to equate rural with a socially conservative demographic but that data doesn;t bear out that these people will not vote for her....quite the opposite.

Here are Clinton's numbers in upstate NY



Here are her numbers amongst regular church goers in NY



Here are her numbers amongst men in NY



Here are her numbers with whites in NY

[ThomWV]

32. In This Part Of Rural WV She Wouldn't Get A Dozen Votes

And the other 25,000 or so people in the county would want to lynch her. Seriously, people who would vote for Byrd in a heartbeat absolutely hate her. I do not say that coming from any study, I say it coming from what my neighbors tell me when we talk - which is often.

[Der Blaue Engel]

2. I'm not forming any kind of a front against any Democrats

I support true progressives in primary races, but once the Democratic candidate is nominated, they get my vote.

[rodeodance]

5. Bingo.

[citizen snips]

6. I agree

[CollegeDUer]

7. Ok but in the primaries

Do you agree with my idea that there should almost always be primary battles -- because the people need a real choice and are rarely 100% satisfied with the people they have?

[Der Blaue Engel]

19. Primaries, sure

There are probably some arguments against it as well, like possibly "spoiling" the eventual nominee by trash talking them on the way up in a close race against a Repub, but in general, yes, I'm in favor of healthy competition in a primary. And I'd want the most progressive candidate to be the one chosen, regardless of whether I thought they were "too liberal" for Joe and Jane Sixpack to vote for in the General.

[atfqn]

33. In principle yes.

But it would be awfully nice to not have to choose between a bucket of excrement and a pile of excrement.

[Der Blaue Engel]

34. I can't think of any Democrats who deserve quite that level of vitriol

(Joementum doesn't count. He renounced his affiliation.) Oh, wait...Zell Miller. Okay, one.

[atfqn]

40. True enough.

But I was a New Yorker when Clinton bought her way into the senate. It would have been different if she had put some time into the NY political scene before she bought a house and ran on her husband's name. Since she has been there I have not seen anything from her office that has had a direct benefit on NY. Our taxes are among the highest. The economies of the upstate region once rife with high technology - corning, harris, kodak, xerox and bausch and lomb have withered and died. I do not lay this plate at her feet but I never saw her do anything about it either. NYC had how many peaceful protests and they received how much coverage? Through out all of this I ask where was she? And finally I ask where is she now? Where was her outrage over the complete lack of any kind of mid-east peace process? You say that no democrat deserves that kind of vitriol and I agree my words were more out of frustration and my lack of representation. I hope she doesn't get the nomination - I want to be able to be proud of who I vote for.

[sui generis]

3. I think it's better to have a justified, considered opinion

either way than to just hate or love her for some irrational reason.

Personally, I think she cleaves too much to the "conservative" side of the democratic party and that she is far too much a political animal to make a good leader.

A good political leader has to make the right decision more often than you or I would, all other facts considered. A president has to be exemplary at this. I would probably invite Hillary Clinton to be Secretary of State, or to remain a senator with all honor due, but right now I would have a very difficult time supporting her in a run for president without some significant clarification of her position on many topics.

[Reckon]

8. Hillary is the repubs choice just like Joe Luberman is...

Edit: One word.. Panderer

[CollegeDUer]

11. Hands them elections and even if she wins

She won't challenge their status quo too much.

[tandot]

9. If Republicans stay in power, we can kiss democracy good-bye

This election is about the Democratic Party winning back the house and senate, and getting rid of these Republican fascists.

It is about electing Democrats who CAN win against Republicans ... this is about saving America

[CollegeDUer]

10. Tasini can win easily

He doesn't have the hate cult around him that Hilary Clinton does by the Right and few Dems would abandon him because he's too progressive in New York.

[tandot]

15. Oh, Really???

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060825/ap_on_el_se/clinton_s_challenger_1

Tasini struggles for recognition

NEW YORK - Anti-war Democrat Jonathan Tasini's longshot bid to oust New York Sen.
Hillary Rodham Clinton should be riding a crest of momentum now.

Just weeks ago in nearby Connecticut, another anti-war upstart, Ned Lamont, stunned the political world, defeating Sen.
Joe Lieberman in the Democratic primary. Flush with victory, liberal activists and bloggers who helped drive Lamont's candidacy sought out other prey.

But with less than three weeks to New York's Sept. 12 primary, Tasini remains unknown to most Democratic voters and overpowered by Clinton's celebrity and vast fundraising edge. Bloggers have remained largely on the sidelines, choosing to wage their anti-war insurgency elsewhere.

--SNIP--

A Marist Poll released this week found that 68 percent of Democratic voters say the Iraq war should be a "major" campaign issue this fall, and 64 percent said they would be inclined to vote for a candidate who opposes the war. But the same poll found Clinton leading Tasini, 80 percent to 15 percent.

---------------

I don't want Hillary to run as President, but I doubt that Tasini has even the slightest chance of winning the Senate race. Sorry.

[zalinda]

21. I have really no hard opinion of Clinton

She is my Senator, and has done a good job here in New York. She is well liked by dems and repubs a like. Like I've said in other threads, New York state is not as blue as NYC. There are quite a few red areas here in the state, and even they like her. So far, what I have seen is she is playing to her constituents, not the US as a whole. I think it's a red herring by the right that she is running in '08. Her name is just like gay marriage or stem cell research, a way to get the far right out to vote.

zalinda

[Democrat 4 Ever]

28. Tasini can't win even in his dreams on his best night.

Sorry, but those are the facts. I, personally, like Hillary, would love to have the privilege to vote for her but I will support the Democratic candidate - no matter who it is - because we can't take another four years of these asswipes.

And you are right, he doesn't have a cult of hate around him, hell, he doesn't even have a cult of sorta like him to bolster his bid. I wish he would take his time and money and put it forth into a race that needs help - Tasini against Goliath ain't it. He just doesn't have the juice and I'm glad. We need smart (read that as SMART), savvy, understands how dirty politics can be and is willing to get down and dirty to fight people in DC. Say what you will about Hillary she knows the game and plays it really, really well. When we constantly knock Hillary we are just doing KKKarl's work for him.

I understand you guy is Tasini, may the force go with you, but will you support Hillary after she beats him in the primary?

[Lowell]

12. I agree with you

I think that she has lost contact with the real world and has been ruined by her time in the Senate. Her stand against flag burning was nothing more than pandering to the rabid right. She has got to go. I think the Repubs would really like to see her win the primary because they know they could beat her. She carries too much baggage.

[CollegeDUer]

13. It's not like she can ever win the right over anyway

She has the name "clinton"; you know, the guy they tried to impeach over a blowjob.

I don't know why she tries to pander to them. Maybe, in the end, she just has new friends who aren't her constituents.

[WA98070]

18. Is it pandering when it's her position in the first place?

[Bake]

37. Simply put, YES.

It is pandering, whether it's her "position" or not. Any politician - ANY - who says we need to amend the Constitution to protect the flag from the Constitution itself (First Amendment) is pandering, plain and simple.

Bake

[nini]

30. That 'Clinton' guy also had a 70% plus approval rate after impeachment

People liked Clinton.. necons did not.

Don't forget he also won two elections. The last president to do so.

[Nutmegger]

14. HRC needs to face her vote for the IWR

Just like the other members who voted for this atrocity. If the Dems had spine and stood up and voted for withdrawal bills etc then I would have a different opinion but I'm not going to sit on my ass while Iraq gets pushed aside and ten Dems vote for troop withdrawal, twenty-five vote against and the rest abstain. I'll have none of that.

We need someone else for '08 though. If HRC gets the nomination and elected it'll be:

Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Shrub, Shrub, Hilliary, Hilliary (if elected to second term).

[NYCGirl]

16. Clinton is leading Tasini in NY by 80% to 15%. Glad he's running, but he

has no chance.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/25/ap/politics/mainD8JNJMVG1.shtml

[warrens]

17. You're not wrong

But she ain't gonna lose her seat. And she ain't gonna be our nominee. Or even VP nominee.

[truedelphi]

20. She was the attorney for Sam Walton of WalMart

During the eighties

She voted for the bankruptcy bill, she votes for the big banking issues, she
is quite the hypocrite.

It takes a village, but Sam Walton's WalMart helped destroy many a village

Just goes to show you how blind most people are to the icons they support

[trumad]

22. You can't assure shit....

Nice rant by the way.

[rinsd]

23. I love it, the anti-Hillary crap is non-stop

First who put out the meme that Hillary has no chance vs. the Republicans?

Why has the Republicans want to run against Hillary become a mantra?

"And the middle and right wing of the country WON'T vote for her. They have this mentality based on 0 facts whatsoever that she's some kind of far-left communist bat out of hell waiting to turn America into the next Soviet Union. It'll be the most horrific election loss in history. She'll get maybe 30% of the vote."

Please tell me what you base the above on? Seriously because the polling data counters it. The right wing is gonna vote against whoever the Dem nominee is so I don't care if they hate her or not.

Here's Hillary's tracking polls for Liberals, Democrats, Indies and Moderates. Granted these are for NY but it gives you a good idea where she stands.









Even in national polls her disapproval numbers are better than some other Dem champions including Gore and Kerry.

"I know I'm going to be barraged with statistics and facts about how liberal she votes"

Pesky facts, much better to go with one's gut and info pulled from one's rectum I guess.

[atfqn]

36. You say we need to see the facts

and yet you choose one of the most consistently liberal states as your factual basis. I give you credit for notating this, but still do you think these numbers are even remotely close in places we need to capture like florida, ohio etc... There seems to be a recurring theme throughout my conversations with people - they want change. The only change that clinton is bringing to the plate is her sex. She hasn't spearheaded anything worthwhile and her voting record is perfectly on the fence. They crucified Kerry for this do you think she would fair any better? The only benefit I can see with her winning this and I mean the only one would be that she brings back Bill with her, a person who has been there and done that (with a cigar even.) Overall she has not provided the leadership this country needs and with all of these voter fraud cases, I think we need more clear cut candidates. We will need someone from the south (currently residing or close) and wes clark. At this point I do not care who but wes clark and anyone is an imposing ticket.

[rinsd]

39. Response

"still do you think these numbers are even remotely close in places we need to capture like florida, ohio etc... "

Possibly. I looked at her upstates, male and regular church going stats and she does fairly well there.

"her voting record is perfectly on the fence. They crucified Kerry for this do you think she would fair any better?"

Minor correction, Kerry had a very liberal voting record but they decided flipflopper career Senator would prove more fertile negative ground. Its not her voting record that the rwers will go after, it will be herself.

"We will need someone from the south (currently residing or close) and wes clark. At this point I do not care who but wes clark and anyone is an imposing ticket."

I like Edwards alot(and probably will campaign for him if he runs) and I find Clark intriguing. I am not a Hillary booster persay but I don't believe the simultaneous CW of Hillary will win the nom but get slaughtered in the general.

Truth be told any Dem nominee will have their hands full if McCain gets the nod.

[atfqn]

42. Great response.

We still slightly disagree on her vote ability. But we agree on Edwards and Clark. As well on McCain getting the nod. This is what I am truly afraid of and it seems he is being groomed for it. This is exactly why I feel strongly against Hillary. I do not want to see democrat infighting on television or in the papers over hillary vs X. I want to see a strong united front behind a team that will get the votes. I might be persuaded to vote hillary clark but I just don't think we are ready for it and especially not against mccain. Thanks for your response.

[leftchick]

24. Hill is a Corporate Shill

and a warmonger with a ton of money. I think the DNC should dump her for a progressive, but that is where that money comes in. The DNC can not afford to dump her and how sad is that for we the people? And too bad for Tasini because I love him!

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jacobin]

27. She's a PNACer

Thank you for your work in democracy.....we need alternative candidates, to help get differing views out, even if they may not ultimately prevail.

I don't begrudge one penny of the small fortune (for me) that I sent to Howard Dean when he was up for nomination.

:applause:

I have no use for IraqNam PNACers and Hillary can blow me.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

31. Where did you get the idea that Hillary is PNAC? Inquiring minds

would like to know if that is just an opinion of your's or did she sign the "world domination manifesto" along with Chucklenuts & the Cabal?

[WI_DEM]

29. So you decided that all on your own, huh?

Look I don't want Hillary as the Dem nominee either, but I won't go so far as to say "she won't be president" if she is legitamitely nominated I will work day and night to make sure she is the winner.

[DURHAM D]

35. Her name is Senator Clinton. If you don't want to show respect

to her at least respect the party and the office. This is the democratic underground after all - not freeper world.

I find these kinds of threads totally useless, not at all thoughtful and clearly demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the real political world. In a word, juvenile.

[ronnykmarshall]

38. Oh goody! A Hillary Clinton bashing thread!

:woohoo:

[elehhhhna]

41. No. More. Political. Dynasties.

[pinto]

43. Locking

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