Why do so many Americans support the GOP's anti-immigrant plans?

[auburngrad82]

It's neither in sync with America's history or with Christian beliefs.

How do they square it with the Bible?

New International Version:

Exodus 22:21 "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt."

or the King James Version:

Exodus 22:21 "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Or how do they square it with American history?

English was not the first language in our country. There were many nations of Native Americans here long before English-speaking white guys came along.

The plan of the city of Washington was designed in 1791 by Pierre L'Enfant, a Frenchman.

The designer of the Vietnam War Memorial was Maya Lin, a Vietnamese immigrant.

Bob Hope, the entertainment icon who for years entertained our troops overseas, was born in England.

Republican political hero Arnold Schwarzenneger, is an Austrian immigrant.

US District Attorney Alberto Gonzalez' grandparents were very likely illegal immigrants.

GOP Presidential hopeful Rudolph W. Giuliani is the grandson of Italian immigrants.

One of the most recognized of American monuments, the Statue of Liberty, was built by Sculptor Frederic Auguste Bartholdi, a Frenchman, and has the following engraved on it's base:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

For years we were proud of these words and the fact that America was the Melting Pot, the Land of Opportunity.

Where did things go wrong?

[Totally Committed]

1. Because we are basically still a racist society....?

Why else?

TC

[auburngrad82]

6. That's pretty much it in a nutshell

The GOP appeals to its base by making anyone with brown skin either a terrorist or an illegal immigrant. Witness Conrad Burns' "joke" about the house painter a week ago and George Allen's insult of an American-born man with brown skin.

Are people that idiotic that the believe that keeping brown-skinned people out of our country is the solution to all of our problems?

[MercutioATC]

12. It's not a race issue, it's a legal (and economic) issue.

I don't care if their skin is purple. As long as they're in the U.S. legally, I have no issue.

I don't care if their skin is white. If they're not here legally, they should be deported.


The GOP may be exploiting the "brown skin" issue, but that's just the sales pitch. The principle behind the pitch isn't racist, at's a matter of law and money.

[Pathwalker]

14. Are you willing to pay higher taxes for all the new jails?

I've heard numbers from 13 million to 36 million illegals; rounding them up will take billions and billions and billions of tax dollars, first for the cops to do it, then jails to hold them. then, there's the matter of transportation for that many people. How much more in taxes are you willing to pay for this. Of course, their families, many of whom ARE American citizens, will object, so they'll have to be jailed too. But, you'll pay for that too, plus we'll have to feed them while they're here...unless you prefer to toast them in the new ovens...the logistics of this proposal are a MUTHA!
Where do we get the money for this, eh?

[MercutioATC]

15. Nope. I don't favor a mass round-up.

...just deport them as they access the system. Seeking medical care, enrolling in school, getting a driver's license, running afoul of the law...

No huge flood of deportees at one time. No thousands of new INS agents to track them all down. Yes, it'll cost money, but not as much as an active round-up.


Actually, the deportations are the least important of a four-phase plan:

1) Make it economically unviable for employers to hire illegals (BIG penalties and a minimum living wage).

2) Secure the borders.

3) Give illegals a 1-year grace period to leave on their own and/or apply for U.S. citizenship. Don't give them special consideration, make them get in line with the thousands of people who are LEGALLY trying to come to this country.

4) After the grace period, deport illegals as they access the system. It won't be a comprehensive solution, but it's economically a lot more viable.


That's the plan I'd like to see, anyway.

[Pathwalker]

17. Where do we get the money, though?

On CNBC, they're using the "D" word (depression) more and more, saying the US is going broke. Securing the borders will cost money - money we don't have. Then, there's the matter of our northern borders, vastly larger than the southern border that everyone cares so much about...we have PAY PHONES for the people to "notify" the authorities of their arrival in the US, but no one seems to care about the northern borders, where van loads of people arrive every day without stopping at the pay phone. We have roads that lead into the US up here, but nary a border cop, or even a local cop ever patrols these areas. What about our northern border?

[MercutioATC]

23. The same place we'll get the money for national healthcare...

...by getting rid of things like $250M bridges to nowhere in Alaska...

You DO support things like increased education spending and national health coverage, don't you?

ANY program costs money. That doesn't mean they're not necessary or valuable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Sorry I am a teacher not a border patrol agent

I also want my doctors to be doctors, not cops.

[datasuspect]

48. new america

where everyone is a cop.

god, i cannot believe what i read.

[MercutioATC]

67. Doctors are already required to report gunshot wounds

and suspected abuse cases to the police.

What's the difference?

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Those are injuries

Teachers are required to report abuse and neglect also. We PROTECT children. Turning them in to immigration is not at all protective.

[MercutioATC]

70. They're still making the report...

Either way, requiring certain professionals to contact the authorities about certain things doesn't make them "cops".

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Yes it does make me a cop.

It makes no difference where my students were born. I am paid to teach them, not to check their papers at the door. On the other hand, abuse and neglect is harmful to them. It is in their benefit to report that. I see no benefit whatsoever to them in reporting they weren't born here in the USA.

It also goes against what we have been taught - that any child who comes to school gets an education. ANY child.

The other thing that blows my mind about this argument is this - what do you suppose these kids will do when we deny them an education? They won't go back to their native country; their parents are here for JOBS, not for schooling. Now imagine all these kids with nowhere to go all day long while everyone else is in school. I doubt they will stay at home and play video games. :eyes:

[MercutioATC]

90. No, it's an administrative function.

Teachers wouldn't be involved, school administrators would...and they ALREADY perform the function of verifying students' personal information.


Where would the children go? With their parents...back to their native country. Yes, there's the whole anchor baby issue to resolve, but we're going to have to come up with a solution for that regardless of the immigration plan we choose to implement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. They aren't going to go back if we kick them out of school

They won't go back if we refuse medical care either.

How many immigrants do you actually know? I am betting NONE or you would know why they come here. Hint: It's not for schools, or medical care, or social services or any other taxpayer funded programs.

If we refuse to educate their kids, then the kids will run the streets. If we refuse to treat them when they are sick, then they will get sick and die (but not before spreading contagious diseases). How are either of those scenarios better than keeping the kids in school and keeping people healthy?

And as many on this thread have said, it is certainly not very progressive to advocate the mistreatment you endorse. In fact, it is downright inhumane.

[MercutioATC]

110. If it's not jobs or social services, why do people illegally immigrate?

I disagree with your contention.

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. You obviously know little about this topic

if you don't even understand why they come here.

It's a 3 letter word that starts with J.

[MercutioATC]

119. Have you READ any of my posts in this thread?

Unless they're coming here for "Jem" ( http://www.jemunlimited.com/ ), I'm assuming you're talking about jobs. I've addressed that. It's my belief that also making social services less attractive is a less important, but needed, part of the solution.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. I disagree

I work with these people and they are not here for social services. If they were eligible for any services, we would have a hard time getting them to access them. They are proud people and do not want help from us or our govt. They come here to WORK and take care of their families, that's all.

[MercutioATC]

138. I'm a little confused by your statements.

You say they're here for jobs, not services.

My proposal is, in part, to eliminate their job source.

By your own statements, wouldn't they then leave of their own accord? If so, how would making access to services less attractive do any harm...they'd be gone?

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. You have talked about taking services away

all through this thread. Are you now changing your mind?

I don't feel it is right to send immigrants back. But yes, if it weren't for jobs, I doubt they would come to the USA. Whether they would leave or not - I can't say. Life in Central America is horrible for many of them. It wouldn't surprise me if they stayed here even if they didn't have a job.

[MercutioATC]

143. Did you read my post further up this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2004030&mesg_id=2004857

Eliminate the jobs, secure the borders, give them a year to make arrangements, deport those who are left in the least invasive way that I can think of.

I'm interested in other views, but this one seems like it'll work pretty well to me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. "Deport them as they access the system"

Sorry I can't agree with that and I already explained why.

[MercutioATC]

146. Fine, then I guess we'll just provide them with services....

...and that will teach anybody else thinking about illegally entering the U.S. that once they're in they'll have access to free healthcare and education.


Can you see why I think the whole deportation thing is necessary?

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. Do you not listen or are you just stubborn?

They don't come here for services! They come here for J O B S. If you want to deter them from coming, then make it impossible for them to work here.

[MercutioATC]

150. It's part of the plan. Consider it done.

My question stands.

You state that they all just want jobs and none of them want services. That may even be true.

If it is, how does cutting off their jobs, giving them a year to make arrangements to leave and THEN deporting them when they attempt to access services harm them at all?

If they're all as you say they are, they'll all be gone.

Anybody who's left after a year without a job and still attempts to access services is obviously not the type of person you're talking about, right?


Every group has people who don't quite fit the mold. They're the only ones who would be affected. Given your statements, what possible reason could you have to take issue with this?

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. Until the economy in their native countries

improves, it is cruel to send them back. We helped bring about the demise through NAFTA. We owe it to them to help improve the economy in Central America.

Right now, we treat them just a bit better than slave laborers. Yet, they still want to come here. That tells us how desperate they are. So no, I don't advocate sending them back.

[MercutioATC]

155. You seem to be singling out Mexicans.

Well...and Canadians too, I suppose...


We brought about their demise through NAFTA??? I was under the distinct impression that their own governments signed that agreement. Wanna blame corporate America for exploiting undocumented labor? I won't disagree. That's why severe penalties for employers are the first phase of the plan. However, they (I'm assuming you're talking about Mexicans) came from a country that suffered from widespread poverty even before NAFTA. NAFTA may have made it worse for some of them, but their own governments did that to them. We didn't.


Getting back to the bigger picture, this plan is meant to apply to ALL illegal immigrants, not just Mexicans (and/or Canadians). You state that we "owe" it to illegal Mexican immigrants to allow them to stay here and support them. Do we "owe" the same debt to illegal immigrants from every country? We have trade agreements with everybody I can think of. Does that make us responsible for their poor?


You don't advocate sending them back. What DO you propose we do with them...and the millions that will follow?

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. Welcome them

We are a nation of immigrants. Get used to it. :)

[MercutioATC]

158. We are a nation of LEGAL immigrants.

We have always had regulations that kept some people out...and that was while we still were growing.

We're grown. We don't have the resources to provide for open borders, which is what you seem to be advocating.


Nobody is talking about eliminating immigration. The discussion is about illegal immigration...the result of people who break laws to come here and live here illegally.

We are a nation of immigrants. We always will be. Suggesting that should negate any concern about present-day illegal immigration issues is deceptive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. Until 20 years ago, immigrating was much simpler

And yes, I do advocate open borders.

[MercutioATC]

163. How many unskilled low-wage workers are you willing to personally support?

House them, feed them, provide medical care, school them, etc?

Because if we had truly open borders, we'd have a huge influx of people who wouldn't be able to provide those things for themselves. How would you propose to pay for that?

[NNN0LHI]

51. Deport them when they seek medical care?

I have never even considered using the ignore feature here on DU in all these years until right now.

I think I know who needs the medical care too.

Don

[MercutioATC]

68. When they access ANY social services.

It's not like my proposal wouldn't give them plenty of time to handle their situations legally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. That is just sick

and not the least bit progressive.

[MercutioATC]

89. "Sick" is a subjective term.

I don't feel it's offensive at all...and it's much less invasive than breaking down people's doors.

...and it would work.

[mccoyn]

93. It would not work.

Illegal immigrants would just stop using social services that enforce the deportation. That means kids won't go to school. Illegal immigrants won't get medical attention. A healthy illegal immigrant won't leave and will still take a job.

[MercutioATC]

95. I don't believe that.

If you inplement all four steps (increased penalties to employers, securing the borders, a grace period for illegals to leave, and deportation) the vast majority of illegals would have no reason to stay in the U.S....especially in light of the fact that every time they tried to use a social service or got a traffic ticket they'd be deported anyway.

[mccoyn]

102. Your right, I got too focused.

If you successfully cut off the employment, most would leave or get legal immigration.

[MercutioATC]

105. It would, at least, be a start.

Serious penalties for employers would be the most important facet of this proposal. I believe a responsible plan to make accessing social services unattractive would finish 90% of the job.

No job and no access to services without the risk of deportation...no reason to stay.

...and it would be a lot less invasive and degrading than a mass "hunt for illegals".

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. It is demented and inhumane

"There but for the grace of God go I"

I am not a religious person, but that quote has always led me in the way I treat others. The golden rule is another good idea.

[MercutioATC]

112. They chose to break the law.

This isn't about providing charity to the needy, it's about enforcing laws...laws that exist for some very good reasons.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. They are desperate

and hungry and very very poor. They didn't choose to break the law, the law is nearly impossible to follow.

[MercutioATC]

120. So is the majority of the world.

The reality is that we can't provide for them here without some sort of restrictions (that's known as immigration law).

How many unskilled illegal immigrants are you willing to personally house, feed, clothe, employ and provide medical services for? I understand the sympathy issue, but this country cannot grant these people amnesty for two simple reasons:

1) We can't afford it, and

2) doing so would undermine our efforts to have others abide by the process and become legal U.S. residents and/or citizens.


In a perfect world we could provide for all of those in need. This isn't a perfect world.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. Every penny we are spending in Iraq is a penny we could

be spending on social programs, medical care and education here. Last I heard we were up to $1 million a MINUTE in Iraq.

Don't tell me we can't afford to take care of people. The truth is we can but we choose not to.

[MercutioATC]

136. You're preaching to the choir on the Iraq issue.

However, Iraq or no Iraq, we still don't have the resources to provide for every person in the world who wants a better life.

This isn't only about the 12-million-plus illegal immigrants who are here, it's about the tens of millions more that we'll have to deal with if we don't address the problem.

[Cleita]

125. Really? It's not racism?

So how do you explain the sentiments in websites like this one?

http://www.taking-a-stand.org/

This is only one of many that I have bookmarked. They all are about racism and they all voice the same arguments about the immigrants being illegal like are voiced here by the anti-immigrant faction. This one tries to hint that immigrants might be responsible for 9-11 with the same juxtaposition trick the neo-cons used to connect 9-11 with Saddam. I guess they have their brown people mixed up. Iraqis, Mexicans, they all look the same to these people I suppose.

[MercutioATC]

139. Well, yeah...that's a white supremacist site. What did you expect?

Example:

You: Those kids are cute.

Me: You're a pedophile!

You: Thinking kids are cute isn't about wanting to have sex with them!

Me: Oh no? I have a link to a pedophiles' site and they all say that kids are cute and they want to have sex with them.

You (rightfully): What a silly position to take.


...that's all I'm saying. You can't argue that something is an issue of race and "prove" it by linking to a white supremacy site...

[Cleita]

141. So you agree that white supremists are experts on racism?

If opinions from rank and file Americans about immigrants seem to match the same opinions of avowed racists, it would seem that the opinions of those Americans are racist. Actual studies done on the immigrant population of the United States do not support the hyberbole being spread in the media after they interview some Minutemen on TeeVee and some posters come rushing to the internet to repeat what they heard.

Try a source that does research on this:

http://pewhispanic.org/topics/index.php?TopicID=16

[MercutioATC]

162. Another site with an agenda...

They're presenting he issue as an "immigration debate". It's not. It's a debate on ILLEGAL
I also strongly disagree with your contention that "opinions from rank and file Americans about immigrants seem to match the same opinions of avowed racists" .

The "avowed racists" don't like ANY immigrants of non-caucasion heritage...legal or illegal. That's a racist position.

The majority of the American public believes that ILLEGAL immigrants of any race should be deported. That's a legal and economic opinion.


It's ofensive to suggest that the majority of Americans are racist because they don't support illegal immigration.

[melissinha]

2. Because the middle class is being destroyed

on purpose and they see immigrants as the enemy whereas the enemies are the employers who are saving millions on lower wages,.....

If we were doing alright it wouldn't be such a big deal but we are not only making less money, paying more for insurance, but being replaced by immigrants or foreigners..

[ComerPerro]

26. If illegals weren't working for $5 an hour, you would be

and you know it.

The idea that they somehow bring down our wages is bullshit.


There is always someone who will do the work for less money.

[Critters2]

39. It's simple supply and demand

Fewer available workers will drive up wages, just as a poor crop drives up prices on commodities. Hardly rocket science.

[ComerPerro]

50. so its finally happened.

I am being lectured on "supply and demand" by another DUer.

What's next? Are you going to tell me about the wonders of Adam Smith?

[Critters2]

54. Supply and demand is not a political position

nor an economic theory. It is a rule of economics, and not liking won't make it go away.

[ComerPerro]

55. and its an economic theory that is always being oversimplified

such as in this case.

Supply and demand will fix everything, won't it?

Look around. Even if you get rid of illegals, there will still be plenty of supply of cheap labor.

Or are you suggesting that maybe there truly are some jobs Americans won't do?

[Critters2]

56. I didn't say it would fix everything

I said it is the problem--too many workers means unliveably low wages. Again, not rocket science.

[ComerPerro]

57. They will pay only what they have to

you think they will start raising pay to compete for workers?

Shit no.


Workers have never been, and never will be, in control.

As long as people need to eat and need to live, employers will set the pay rates, not workers, and not supply and demand.

[Critters2]

58. If there are fewer wokers

"what they have to" will go up, to attract workers. They'll pay the lowest possible wage, but with a surplus of workers, that wage is suppressed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. You know who believes that, don't you?

You know who pounds that message into the heads of their followers? You realize whose pundits throw this idea around, don't you?

Hint - no one on the left. As Comer said, this is way over simplified.

[MercutioATC]

91. Republicans also believe that the sun rises in the east...

...just because Republicans believe something, that doesn't automatically make it false.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. I wasn't referring to Republicans.

[MercutioATC]

111. Sorry, I took "no one on the left" to mean those on the right.

Care to expand on your thought?

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. Far right wing

Rush clones, hateful war mongers.

[MercutioATC]

121. Aren't most of those people Republicans?

What am I missing here?

[earth mom]

64. And you're not lecturing?

:eyes:

That DUer is absolutely correct!

[MUSTANG_2004]

73. And long overdue apparently n/t

[Kailassa]

140. They also add to demand, which means more workers are needed.

[warrens]

49. If you were a roofer or a carpenter

You might have a different view on that issue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. If I were a roofer or a carpenter

I would be demanding that my UNION insist on a living wage for ALL workers. This is more of a labor issue than an immigration issue. The answer lies with organized labor.

[Critters2]

94. Illegal immigrants help in busting unions. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. EMPLOYERS bust unions

Undocumented workers take jobs when they are offered. It's not like they have a pow wow at the border and decide to come to the US illegally so they can take jobs away from Americans. :eyes:

[Critters2]

113. Employers use illegal immigrants to bust unions

Call it what you want, the effect is the same.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. Place the blame where it belongs please.

[Critters2]

118. You're espousing the corporatist view nt

[Hope springs eternal]

130. sometimes compassion goes too far

I understand and admire your position, but the above poster is right. We simply do not have the resources to handle the situation. I say we give them the treatment at the hospital...then send them back...


Or...

Europe? I have always felt that OTHER industrailzed countries would love to have our labor pool (Japan anyone?)

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. Compassion can never go too far

That is hardly a progressive position.

Heartlessness and cruelty - those can go too far.

[MercutioATC]

144. Compassion (in this case) goes too far when it harms legal U.S. citizens

and residents.


Let's pretend I own a farm. Is it more compassionate to figure out what I can give away and still remain solvent or is it better to let everybody take what they will in one year and not be able to continue to give to those in need?


Immigration laws exist for a reason. Ideally, we're helping who we can. Maybe the quotas are open to a little adjustment, but we can't simply let everybody in.

[Greyhound]

153. What about the tradesmen that live in FL, TX, AZ, and all the other

"right to work" states?

[melissinha]

83. I am not talking so much about the lower wages for immigrants

So much as the corporations are letting the immigrants be the scapegoats when they not only offer regular jobs we used to have to immigrants and foreigners, but contribute less to insurance if at all... disolve pensions and the like....

Its so easy for Americans to blame immigrants because it is really hard to learn to criticize the hand that feeds yo.

[Greyhound]

152. You make the argument for those that want to stop it.

It is the endless supply of "someone who will do the work for less money" that is driving down wages. We created a middle-class by forcing markets to increase wages to attract the workers to the jobs that needed doing. By opening the floodgates you remove that pressure and this is the result.

[Nozebro]

3. Because OVERpopulation = low wages, higher prices, lower standards

and a lower quality of life for all. The rich aren't effected, but the rest of us sure are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. LOL What book did you get that out of?

[LostinVA]

129. giggle

[William769]

4. That just goes to prove that Republicans are NOT Christians!

[The Deacon]

5. I'm Reading "The Party Of Fear"

And every anti-immigrant claim we hear today is, word for word, exactly the same ones as used in the 1830 and after tracts of the Know Nothing Party (anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic, anti=Freemason.) Word for word.

[nosillies]

7. Plenty of people are just racist.

Others, however, are not anti-immigrant. They are just anti-illegal immigrant.

[EFerrari]

9. In other words, they are against hungry people. n/t

[nosillies]

10. Call me a utopian dreamer, but I wish the world had open borders

:loveya:

[w4rma]

42. Me too, but it's not possible in a positive way for at least 70 years. nt

[Tyler Durden]

8. Because they need a SCAPEGOAT.

Scapegoats make excellent rallying icons for the mob; fed up with no raises, outsourced jobs, a destroyed educational system, and no healthcare..? BLAME THE ILLEGALS! THEY'RE using up all your resources, stealing jobs and getting free indigent healthcare!!!

Easiest and most effective smokescreen on earth.

[katsy]

11. Open the borders already.

I'm not a Christian so I won't address those biblical verses.

Maya Lin, L'Enfant, Arnold S, Bob Hope, Giuliani... were indeed immigrants.

Gonzalez... let's not go there.

The Statue of Liberty... Melting Pot... no problem.

The problem, as I see it, is about corporate slavery and those willing to feed it by illegally entering a sovereign country.

I'm for punishing the corporate slavemasters. If that can't be enforced... mandatory living wage laws regardless of legal status. If that can't be enforced... I'm not sure where the answer to that lies.

I find it repugnant that Americans have allowed bush** to place himself above the law. By the same token, how can anyone scream bloody murder about the criminals in this administration, and at the same time pick & choose which other laws are okay to break. I do not make the distinction that immigration laws are okay to break but wiretapping or labor/health/safety or war powers laws are not okay to break.

Corporate slavery (and it's enablers) is of great concern to me and I'm smart enough to understand that the solution won't be found in the bible. Meaningful debate is squelched by name-callers ("racist"). So why bother addressing this stupid topic. Open the fucking borders already. Without MANDATORY LIVING WAGE LAWS... declare it a win for corporate facsists.

Change the immigration law if you don't like what's in place. But spare me the christian biblical tear-jerkers and vacuous "racist" name calling bullshit.

[stepnw1f]

13. Because It's Convenient

and unchallenged in the GOP owned corporate media.

[jerry611]

16. The GOP is pro-immigrant

They WANT those poor mexican workers to come here illegally. It is labor that can be exploited. It is the core of Bush's free trade agenda. He needs illegal immigrants and 3rd world countries in order for CAFTA, NAFTA, and FTAA to work.

Part of the reason why Democrats may win back the house this year is because the GOP is going to be losing a lot of voters because they have taken a pro-immigration stance.

[Critters2]

101. Exactly--GOP is the party of the corporatists nt

[WinkyDink]

18. Bible, Schmible; what's the relevance of THAT?

The Statue of Liberty isn't exactly law, either.

Let's not be disingenuous; the ISSUE is ILLEGAL immigration.

[auburngrad82]

22. If the issue was entirely ILLEGAL immigration the Burns wouldn't

have singled out an immigrant who was here legally and Allen wouldn't have singled out an American citizen who looks like an immigrant.

Just today someone posted a poll on DU and one of the options was to close the borders. That's not just anti "ILLEGAL" immigration, that's anti-IMMIGRATION. When I saw the poll, close the borders was the most-selected choice.

So what is this anti-immigration based on? There's tons of reports that immigrants, both legal and illegal, actually help the economy and that they are not a drag on the government. So is the hatred based on religious beliefs, on "patriotism" or on racism? I'm not by nature religious and I'm by no means racist. I also know that our country was built by immigrants of all colors. There are very few of us who can say we are truly "native" Americans.

In my background I have German, Irish, Scottish and Blackfoot Indian. My wife is second-generation Jugoslavian. I don't have a problem with immigrants, legal or illegal.

[SheilaT]

19. Because too many people

have been persuaded that illegal immigrants are the source of various woes, such as high taxes for schools and social security. The reality is that most of them work, are woefully underpaid, pay taxes from which they get few or no benefits. They don't collect welfare or unemployment or social security (despite many claims that they do).

The REAL villains are the companies that knowingly employ them, claiming Americans won't work for the wages they offer. Well, no one wants to work for wages you can't live on. Illegals are easily exploited and we all benefit.

[WinkyDink]

21. Well, then, if they weren't here they wouldn't be exploited.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. So we could then exploit a different group of people

like maybe African Americans or Hispanics. Or Muslims.

It's the American way :sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

24. They DO depress wages.

They DO put additional demands on our schools and healthcare system.

No, they're not the source of all of our woes, but illegal immigration DOES have its serious issues.

[ComerPerro]

27. depress wages? You know that is bullshit

what, you think if all the illegals disappeared, then employers would magically start paying more?

Boy, you've been sold one of the classic right wing lies. And you fell for it, bigtime.

If an illegal isn't there to do hard work, long hours, at $5 an hour, an American who needs a job or the money will be. Corporations can count on that.

That was one of the biggest problems for organized labor in the early 20th century.

Employers may treat workers like shit, but there is always someone who needs the money bad enough.

[MercutioATC]

31. If they want their cabbages picked, they will (pay more).

Laws exist that restrict employers' ability to hire illegal workers. They're not regularly enforced and the penalties are negligible, but they exist.

If what you say is true...if there are so many legal American citizens that will do these jobs at the same wage...why would any employer hire an undocumented worker? If I offer you a pirated copy of Microsoft Office for $10 and a legal copy for $10, which are you going to choose? The chances of being caught are remote, but you'd choose the legal version if it cost the same amount.

If businesses didn't have a large labor pool of undocumented workers, they'd have to pay more.

[ComerPerro]

32. Well, ok, fair enough. They can pay illegals less than minimum wage

but there are plenty of Americans who do and will work for minimum wage.

so pay will go up from 4 and 5 dollars an hour to 5.15

Aren't you a champion of the working class? You must be very proud.

[MercutioATC]

33. $4/hr to $5.15/hr is a 28% wage hike.

It's still not a living wage, but it's closer.

To deal with the gap between the minimum wage and a "living wage", we have to address raising the minimum wage. That has nothing to do with immigration law. However, eliminating cheap illegal labor is a step in the right direction.

[ComerPerro]

34. my bad. Because, we all know, if there were no illegals,

then we would all be making $500,000 a year.

Its not the fault of corporations, right? They want to pay fantastic wages, but they just can't because illegals work for so much less.

Damn those mexican bastards.


But I'm not racist.

[MercutioATC]

36. Let's look back at our pirated software example, shall we?

The reason people download and/or buy pirated software and media is because it's cheaper. It's not legal, it's not right, it hurts the economy, but that consumer pays less for that particular item.

How do we deal with this? We shut down the sources of the pirated items and penalize those who buy them. Makes sense, right?


The same approach works with wages. Eliminate the source of cheap (illegally cheap) labor and penalize the people who break the law.


As for the rest of your post, it's just silly. Nobody's suggesting that corporations are altruistic and want to pay outrageous wages. Nobody suggested that eliminating undocumented workers would change that. However, it WOULD help enforce the legal wage floor, which is vital.

...and the issue here is illegal immigration . I'm not singling out illegal Mexicans.

[ComerPerro]

37. your example is invalid. Entirely. They are completely separate issues

get rid of opressed illegal workers, and you will have oppressed legal workers.

People will do the work.

[MercutioATC]

66. Actually, it's you that's attempting to combine two separate issues.

1) Illegal workers and the fact that their illegal status allows employers to illegally pay them less.

2) The lack of a legal minimum wage that resembles a living wage.


Solving one of these issues does nothing to solve the other. We're talking about the effect of undocumented workers on wages, not the need for a legislated living wage.

[Quantess]

20. The rising population of this country is concerning.

The environment is suffering.

[ComerPerro]

28. What about fundie families who have six, eight, ten, twelve kids?

[Quantess]

29. Yes, what about them.

Overpopulation is a serious issue that needs to be addresed.
I think we have enough people here already, and I think the environment is being stressed.

[earth mom]

65. Bingo! We have a winner!

:applause:

[ComerPerro]

25. because, dammit, scapegoating is fun

Why go after the real source of your troubles when you can instead rally against people who can't defend themselves?

[OregonDem]

30. Why do Americans support the GOP anti-immigration plan? 2 reasons

Some on the left don't understand basic economics.
The right wants a "White, English speaking, Christians Only Nation".

[Greyhound]

154. Speaking of not understanding economics...

it seems to have escaped you entirely.

[Kickin_Donkey]

35. Because, even though this is a liberal board, racism and white ...

supremicism run rhrough American society, and even many "liberals" are infused with it, although it's not as obvious as with Pukes and said "liberals" can't see or would not admit to their racism.

The racism bubbled up in full view after the foiled terrorist plot in the U.K., when you had a lot of DUers howling for racial profiling because they, as white people, were inconvenienced by the delays at airports. I held a contrary opinion, and DUers were snarling at me with "god damn Pakistanis" and the usual stereotypes of Arabs/Muslims/Middle Easterners.

You see it in the countless posts justifying Nagasaki and Hiroshima. There may be valid arguments for vaporizing 500,000 people in terms of war, but a lot of it comes down to that some DUers place less value on the lives of brown people.

You see it when some DUers claim there is no racism against African Americans anymore.

Racism is part and parcel of American society, and you're going to get whiffs of it even here.

[Critters2]

40. African Americans suffer more from illegal immigration

than anyone. Advocating cheap labor is working against the interests of African Americans.

[BlooInBloo]

52. I'm WITH ya! - black folks are TAILOR-MADE for low-level jobs!

Who needs a mexican when there's a perfectly good negro just sittin' over there smoking crack?

You guys SLAY me! :rofl:

[Critters2]

53. So you don't think illegal immigration harms African Americans?

I know African Americans who differ with you.

[NNN0LHI]

59. My racist parents want to send all the African Americans back to Africa

Right after they get done deporting all the Mexicans. All my parents friends and most of my other relatives feel the same way. They are dead serious too. I have heard it my whole life.

And they are not shy about telling anyone about it either.

Tell that to your African American friends who are upset with the Mexicans getting all the good jobs.

Don

[Critters2]

60. Right. My African American friends and colleagues

don't know there are racists in America. :eyes:

Pitting people of color against one another won't solve the problems.

[BlooInBloo]

61. I'm just glad that SOMEONE cares enough about those negroes....

... to protect those sharecropping-level jobs from those filthy mexicans. Lord knows those negroes aren't gonna be able to get any other jobs!

Blessings of Jesus be upon you, brother.


EDIT: SLAY - you guys absolutely SLAY me! :rofl:

[MUSTANG_2004]

74. Why ignore basic facts?

It's not racist to say that black unemployment is higher than the national average:

http://www.cbtu.org/2003website/takingastand/blackunemployment.html
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/bawnews/economy817

Any action that decreases the number of available jobs (such as massive illegal immigration) will affect the groups with the highest unemployment the most, lessening opportunities even more. I don't think it's racist to say this.

[Critters2]

98. It is racist to ignore the needs of those with the highest

unemployment. Assuming that black unemployment is and should be the status quo is inherently racist, imo.

[Sterling]

161. I mostly see peopole who are racist towards white people here.

But of course, that is OK. It's cool to hate white people. It's cool to blame the worlds problems on white people, go right ahead.

[w4rma]

38. America cannot support open borders just as we cannot support "free" trade

It's not racist to know how folks' salaries will be affected with unlimited cheap labor.

A Ronald Reagan-like amnesty for illegals is NOT popular with Americans. And is also *bad* for America.

Btw, the Republican leadership wants *more* cheap labor, not less. So you are supporting the Republican leadership on this issue rather than regular folks.

[Critters2]

41. Exactly--open borders is the dream of the corporatists. nt

[Karenina]

43. With NAFTA, *corp American money

destroyed the livelihoods of MILLIONS south of the border. And now you complain that they try to feed themselves and their families by migrating north to the delight of Big Ag there. SHAME ON YOU!!!

[w4rma]

44. It destroyed the livelihoods of millions north of the border, also.

And now you complain that they try to protect their livelihoods and their family's by enforcing existing immigration law to the delight of Big Multinational Businesses. SHAME ON YOU!!!

[Karenina]

88. THAT is the point! JAIL THE EMPLOYERS.

There is only one post on this thread (#19) that ID's the real culprits. *Corp Amurikka does not want the LAWS prohibiting hiring illegals enforced, so they are NOT in any meaningful way. Instead of falling for the racist appeals to blame people who are victims of crony capitalism and your nation's foreign policy, perhaps a campaign to stiffly fine and JAIL (1 year mandatory) any head honcho of any concern, regardless of size, for hiring illegals would be more effective. Ya think?

[MercutioATC]

92. Stiffer penalties would be the MOST effective step.

$10k per day per worker for the first offense.

$25k for the second.

$50k for the third.


None of these employers could afford that kind of penalty.

[Critters2]

97. Penalties and jail

There are fines now, and Tyson et al just work them into their budgets. Larger penalties would help, but if the CEO of Smithfield were frog marched out of his office, a lot of things would change pronto!

[MercutioATC]

99. The issue is cost of prosecution.

I believe it'd be more cost-effective to simply fine their asses off.

[Karenina]

126. Strictly enforced, going after the "big guys" first

Use the fines to return those affected to their place of origin without prejudice (in the legal sense that they would be able to apply at a later date for a status that would allow them to work) and with a small symbolic "goodwill" severance package. WHY THAT? To promote an atmosphere of sticking the blame where it belongs- with the EMPLOYERS who flout U.S. law with IMPUNITY. Provide the children born on U.S. soil the passports to which they are entitled. Yo, Merc, the mess would be cleared up so fast heads would spin...

[MercutioATC]

127. Great way to handle the anchor baby issue, Kerenina.

I honestly hadn't considered something that simple.

[Greyhound]

160. You must add jail time to repeated offenses. Fines mean little to the

largest and worst offenders. If however, there were prison sentences for all of the executives involved, it would, as Karenina says "the mess would be cleared up so fast heads would spin", I especially like the friendship building part of her plan, very effective.

[orpupilofnature57]

45. FEAR!!!

[MUSTANG_2004]

75. Economic fear, and why not?

Why shouldn't we worry that an endless supply of cheap labor might cause us to work for a fraction of the salary we would normally get? That fear seems reasonable to me.

[orpupilofnature57]

147. Because it's other Americans ripping us off.

[The Jacobin]

62. Because we (the Democrats) offer no alternative.

America has no patience for anarchy (Noam Chomsky is no exception). Since we have offered no alternative, the choice is between law and anarchy. America will choose law every time.

We must offer an alternative. Yes the door is open, but it is a door where people line up and enter in an orderly fashion - not a mob crushing its way in.

The alternative must be to control the border - everyone coming in and out is identified and their bags are searched. That is what is supposed to happen. Since the law has never been enforced, people are turning to the repugs who call to close the border completely.

[Sapere aude]

63. Because multiculturalism scares the hell out of them.

None of the reasons to be anti immigrant hold water. The reasons given are given so that it looks like there is no real xenophobia but rather a bunch of logical rational reasons for those people to stay in their own country and not to come here and bring their culture with them. Period end of story.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. Because they see well-paying jobs disappearing and larger numbers of

visible immigrants, and they make a false connection in their minds, eagerly encouraged by the right-wing media.

The same thing is happening in England, by the way, only the immigrants in question are Eastern European instead of Latino.

[mod mom]

77. They are afraid of non-white people getting and controlling (by #'s) the

vote. I heard Pat Buchanan ramble on recently about how Mexicans thought they still should contol the SW US and migration was an attempt to re-populate the area, get voting rights and take over. I believe that those who support the GOP plan absorb these rascist views and jump on the band wagon.

[hogwyld]

78. Hell, for second, I thought I was on FR!

I can't believe the xenophobic dribble I'm reading! This is a nation of immigrants, and if some one want to take out the trash at McD's, he's welcome to tha job! I'd rather deport the * administration before I want to harass immigrants.

[NNN0LHI]

79. You are right

Something doesn't seem right here.

Don

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Amen

Glad to see you also get it. And I love that idea - let's deport the evil repukes along with their leader before we deport hard working immigrants! LOL

[MUSTANG_2004]

87. There's a difference

Between legal and illegal immigrants. I'm all for legal immigrants. Hell, I just hired one. But illegal immigrants and the employers who hire them should not be tolerated.

Tolerating illegals and the under-the-table shenanigans of the companies who hire them puts the honest employers who hire people for legal wages and pay all the employment taxes and insurance at a disadvantage.

[LostinVA]

103. In about five seconds you'll be ripped to shreds

Because "you just don't get it," "You're not affected by it," and a bunch of other RWish memes... most of which were directed at the Irish, Jews, and Italians who entered this country from the late 1800's through the 30's or so... including my great-grandparents.

[MercutioATC]

123. Did your grandparents immigrate illegally?

I'm assuming they didn't.

Nobody here is arguing against legal immigration. At issue is how to deal with illegal immigration.

[LostinVA]

128. As I said -- in five seconds, except it was me, not the poster

Maybe YOU think it's about illegal immigration, but the whole recent dialog in real life and on DU most certainly isn't.

I'm not engaging with you on this. I think you are totally wrong.

[MercutioATC]

137. Fair enough.

Legal immigration isn't the issue here, but you're certainly within your rights to disagree.

[truth2power]

80. Immigrants are just the enemy du jour, that's all. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

85. According to DUers, every Mexican cooking, cleaning, serving...

... could be a negro instead.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2004030&mesg_id=2006589

That's DUers' anti-immigrant stance - protecting the negro's slave job.

These guys kill me.

[NNN0LHI]

86. Would you please quit making me laugh so hard

They kill me to.

:rofl:

Don

[Critters2]

100. Not everyone agrees with you--which is a shock to you, I know

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5319916

[LostinVA]

104. OMG -- I missed this post -- crazy

[FILAM23]

96. The difference

all those listed above were/are legal. Admittedly Arnold
was legal turned into illegal when he overstayed his work
visa but using the US legal syatem became a legal citizen. However
the complaint is about those that knowingly break our laws to come
here, people support these measures because these people are
criminals and should be punished not rewarded.

[Homer Wells]

122. IMHO

If all there were in this country were white skinned Anglo Saxon Protestants, there would be a push by SOMEONE to persecute Red haired people, or people with eyes that were not the exact shade of blue as the sky, or who had round instead of oval faces, or any other ridiculous difference that was not shared by the majority of the persecutors.
The only way mankind will Ever get together is if we are invaded by non-human aliens, thereby giving all of mankind someone to trash.

[Alcibiades]

124. What GOP anti-immigrant plans?

Illegal immigration has skyrocketed under the Bush administration. Bush himself would rather play ethnic politics and court the Hispanic vote than risk it by cracking down on illegal immigration.

During the fist term of this administration, the illegal ( or, if you prefer, "undocumented") immigrant population increased from an estimated 8.4 million to 10.3 million, a net increase of 23 percent, or an extra 485,000 per year from 2000 to 2004. Illegal immigration has increased during the Bush administration, and not just by a little bit.

The Bush administration could have done something about this much sooner. Instead, they have done nothing until recently, when the National Guard was sent to help the Border Patrol. The fact that they have taken up this issue only now suggests strongly that this is being used as a political issue in the upcoming congressional elections--if Republicans had taken this problem seriously, they would have done something before now.

Remember, too, that it was George Bush, then the Texas governor, who attacked Pete Wilson in re Prop 187.

We keep confusing the illegal immigration issue with the civil rights movement. Civil rights was about getting rights for American citizens who were too long denied them. The question of immigration is whether we, as a democratic country, will continue to choose the rules by which people are admitted into our nation, or whether anyone desperate enough to come here will be allowed to live here indefinitely. As Democrats, we need to come up with something that is an alternative to the Republican plan of allowing masses illegal immigrants to drive down wages while, Janus-like, issuing draconian "border fence" schemes to appeal to racists. I suggest that we get rid of the antiquated quota system and issue more visas for people from Central and South America to come here legally, while securing our borders and increasing the compliance with our labor laws.

As Democrats, we really should give more thought to this subject. What happens to the social programs that at the heart of the New Deal if we allow unregulated immigration to continue? What about the social costs that ensue from allowing foreign criminals to take up residence here (I'm not talking about the old "all illegal immigrants are criminals" meme, but that an estimated 10% of persons coming here illegally have criminal records in their country of origin)? How much other criminality is enabled by the existence of a massive industry that provides forged identity documents, an industry made possible by the prevalence of illegal immigration?

Contrary to the OP, anti-immigrant hysteria is tragically "in sync" with much of American history, we've seen waves of it. Today, most Americans are in the middle when it comes to immigration, and we will be rewarded if we devise a policy that is not anti-immigrant, but anti-illegal immigration, that prevents the exploitation of people in our workforce, that addresses the root issues of poverty in the countries of origin, and that increases legal immigration while protecting all American residents from immigrants with criminal histories. This would be an immigration policy that appeals to the best in people, not the worst, as these various Republican proposals tend to do.

[Critters2]

131. Well said nt

[nosillies]

157. thank you

:applause:

Finally, a brilliant post made all the more brilliant by its lack of name-calling and emotion.

I like your style!

[Imagevision]

149. Imagine as many Cubans entering the US. as mexicans, then what?

Would any of you lose one of your jobs?