Is America even worth saving?

[mikelewis]

The world economy is struggling back on its feet after a century of war both hot and cold and we are now drowning in debt. Our products are too expensive for world consumption and our people are too ignorant and divided to lead in the new world economy. The only thing we really have left to protect our place in the world is the reliance on the dollar and an indestructible army, both of which are becoming less reliable and less indestructible everyday.

Our Constitution is not only openly ignored by our own President but it has been usurped by millions of sub-laws and statutes. The average American person probably violates at least 1 law a day and We hardly have to leave our homes to do so. Our sense of morality is so twisted that even our spiritual leaders are nothing more than two-bit con-men.

Our addiction to oil has turned us into junkies. Our addiction to television has turned us into zombies. Our addiction to fear has turned us into slaves. So is America even worth saving? Wouldn't it be better to let her die than to continue to be some grotesque malignancy on the world? Is it even realistic to believe we can fix a country so broken and depraved?

[PVK]

1. We should start over.

It obviously is a huge failure.

[Jim Sagle]

2. Yes.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. Hush your mouth!

Of course it is! Where else are we going to live?

I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!!





Book TV Schedule January 21-23
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x199787#200041
Great programs this weekend! Peter Bergen, John Perkins, George Lakoff and more.

[Selteri]

6. It's my country, I want to either save it or improve it

and definitely protect it from those who would turn it into an empire.

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. If every American sucks, then you suck too, by definition

I for one am not going to surrender MY country to the bigots, crooks, thieves, and killers. If you don't want to fight, then yes, perhaps you should move to another country, and leave the battle to the rest of us.

[mikelewis]

7. I didn't mention leaving, I asked is it worth saving?

[PatrioticLeftie]

5. So

You're just going to give up?

I'm not, because I know we can be what we've always wanted and what others have exploited. I am sick of being stereotyped and generalized by people who I've never met. I know that there are good, hard-working people out there being screwed to an inch of their lives and being lied to day in and day out because they don't have the time to sort out the facts. These people deserve better; better wages, better hours, better conditions.

We have a lot of problems, but there is no god damn way I am just going to give up.

[mikelewis]

9. I never mentioned giving up. I asked is it worth saving?

[otohara]

59. Legit Question - Sorry

you're getting slammed. I would bet the religious right thinks America is spot-on track, they think they are the ones "saving" this country. Chilling but true.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

11. Good post, I agree n/t

[MoonRiver]

68. "Good post"? The mods deleted it!

I didn't read what the poster said, but your response seems strange considering the post was considered bad enough to delete.
:wow:

[EFerrari]

10. mike, we are America.

:)

[onenote]

12. what does this even mean? "Wouldn't it be better to let her die"

I have no idea what that means. What does a "dead" America look like? A state of chaos and anarchy? Are you suggesting we just give up voting and let the right wing pass whatever laws they please and lock up whomever they want?

onenote

[Greyhound]

62. Look out your window... see? There it is...

the lifeless carcass covered in vultures...
America 'died' in the 80's after suffering a long illness, resurrected as amerika by the ignorant, the short-sighted, the greedy, the evil.

[onenote]

77. y'know it wasn't so great at times in the past either, but the pendulum

can and will swing back. Look outside in the 1930s as an African American and see what it was like. Look ouside during World War II as a Japanese American. Look outside as a gay American in the 1950s. Look outside as a woman at the beginning of the 20th Century. Look outside as a college kid trying to avoid the draft in the 1960s.

The bad news is that the pendulum swings both ways and every time we make some progress, the rw pushes us back. But the good news is that over the course of time the progressive moves outgain the repressive ones. If we keep our eyes on the prize and refuse to give up, we'll set things on their right course again. It won't be permanent and it won't be everything we'd like..its a neverending struggle which is why giving up isn't an option.

onenote

[MN ChimpH8R]

81. I wish I could be that optimistic

The unique problem facing intelligent people in the US today is that one totally corrupt and utterly ruthless corporate cabal controls everything - the media, the politicians (including DLC phony Dems), much of the bureaucracy, the courts, and the mechanisms that count the votes. There has never been a time in our history when power over all the important elements of society has been centralized in the hands of so few.

While the Gilded Age had its industrial barons, they tended to focus themselves on one industry. Carnegie had steel, the Harrimans, Stanfords and Morgans had the railroads and the banks, but it was not a case as it is today, with a handful of megacorporations controlling all of the mainstream media, especially television. The monsters have combined and integrated in ways that Carnegie, Rockefeller or Morgan could never have dreamed of.

And those who hold the power are not amenable to changing their minds or reforming. They will do whatever is necessary to maintain their position, and if that means letting the useless eaters (that would be us, folks) die off - think bird flu - or killing them outright if they get too restive, they will do it.

And it all will be packaged for the sheeple by the corporate media in the guise of saving the country from the radical extremists who wanted things like health care and jobs. The Bushbot sheeple and the non-thinkers will say "good riddance" and continue fooling themselves until the elite's minions come for them. But no one will speak for them then. Too bad, chumps, maybe you should have been paying attention before the country was officially feudalized.

What America has become in the last twenty-five years probably isn't worth saving. The only way to save this country would be to purge Congress, dissolve the Fortune 500, redistribute the wealth, tax the wealthy as they were taxed in the 1950s, provide publicy financed campaigns at every level of government and dismantle 80% of the military-industrial establishment. There is no way that one of these things, much less all of them, can be done. As a contry, we are a terminal case and on a ventilator. All that remains to be filled out is the date of death.

[Greyhound]

88. It's depressing because it's true. We could fix it, but those with

the power to do so, have no motivation to. We need another round of founding fathers or another Teddy R, people that will work against their own best interests in favor of the sheeple. I don't see anyone on the horizon that fits the bill this time.
I hope we're wrong.

[tom_paine]

92. And they'd get JFK'd or Wellstoned if they came back

Such people do not achieve power during the decline of a Republic, typically.

[CottonBear]

13. I have chosen to stay and fight. n/t

[leftstreet]

14. 57% of Americans can't name any current Supreme Court justices

Wound meet salt.
:P

http://public.findlaw.com/ussc/122005survey.html

FindLaw's US Supreme Court Awareness Survey

According to a December 2005 national survey conducted by FindLaw, only 43 percent of American adults can name at least one justice who is currently serving on the nation's highest court. Fifty-seven percent of Americans can't name any current U.S. Supreme Court justices.

The percentages of Americans who could name each current justice were as follows:


Sandra Day O'Connor - 27%
Clarence Thomas - 21%
John Roberts - 16%
Antonin Scalia - 13%
Ruth Bader Ginsburg - 12%
Anthony Kennedy - 7%
David Souter - 5%
Stephen Breyer - 3%
John Paul Stevens - 3%
The national survey used a representative sample of 1,000 adults nationwide, with a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points, and conducted for FindLaw.com by Ipsos Public Affairs.

[TahitiNut]

15. If it's worth saving, it'll save itself.

Democracies get the government they deserve. :shrug:

[KitSileya]

25. Amen to that.

The problem is that good governments benefit the people in the country in which they govern, bad governments are most often detrimental to the whole world.

[leftofthedial]

16. America is

Murka is not

Americans are, and will

Murkans aren't, and won't

[applegrove]

17. Of course it is. Just get the kids out of the playhouse. Governance

is hard. So too is adjusting to a changing world. America is well suited to face the changing world. It just needs to get rid of idealogues who see profit & opportunity in human disaster. It debases the humanity of the world. It frees up rogue nations to be rogue. It teaches tribalism and undoes democracy and the idea that we have to stick together and do our part, that we have to sacrifice to be in a democracy.

[Doctor_J]

18. the infrastructure certainly is

this is the most bountiful country in history, so the actual land is definitely worth saving. As for the Republic, it is desperately in need of a major overhaul, as most of the people actually governing are honest-to-god criminals and degenerates.

[mike_c]

19. you know mike, the more I learn about recent American history...

...and by that I mean post-WWII history, the more I find myself asking the same question. The moral bankruptcy of America did not begin on January 20, 2001. It got worse then, but America has been an imperial power since the 1960s, at least. It has been ruled by greed throughout that time-- its political history is largely the history of greedy exploitation of the rest of the world. Ordinary Americans are notably ignorant about the rest of the world, yet they depend on global exploitation of cheap labor, cheap food, cheap energy, cheap plastic crap, and the cheap lives of poor brown people to a remarkable degree, and even more remarkable, the rest of world has born them upon its bent backs for generations. There's not a whole lot to be proud of in American foreign policy since the end of WWII. At home the democratic republic has gradually been eroded by corporate greed, making America a rich nation with a high infant mortality rate, one of the most advanced medical technologies in the world, but one that many citizens do not have affordable access to, and so on. Our worship of the worst excesses of capitalism, just because they're "not socialist," makes the rich richer and the poor more destitute every year.

Anyone who thinks these problems originated during the last five years hasn't been paying attention. Every American administration since Roosevelt has contributed toward the demise of the Republic, IMO, regardless of political affiliation. The best that can be said about the democrats is that they haven't been as bad as the republicans, generally. That's not a ringing endorsement.

The more I learn about the America I've lived in for the last 50 years, the less pride I have in my country.

[Surya Gayatri]

43. Excellent short essay, mike,

This expresses so well exactly what I feel. That's not to say that other so-called civilized Western nations haven't been guilty of the same kind of exploitation, baser human nature being what it is. What's so glaring and galling in the case of the US is its unbearable self-righteousness--always publicly preaching to the rest of the poor benighted world about 'freedom & democracy' while gouging them behind the scenes. We should hang our heads. SG :blush:

[chimpymustgo]

44. It's not just the last 50 years - America has been f*cked up since Day 1.

Sure, it was founded on some lofty principles and noble ideas, but we had to MURDER the indigenous people here so set up our little "democratic republic", then we built it on the backs of ENSLAVED human beings.

The 20th Century began our terrorization of the rest of the world. And here at home, the elites have the money, the power, the VOTING MACHINES. The Presidency, the Senate, the House, the Supreme Court, the Media, the new Patriot Act.

What is left to save? And just exactly how do you do it?

[MN ChimpH8R]

82. Well said, mike_c

America's imperial ambitions go all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt. The only countries in the world worth emulating are the Scandinavian countries - yes, there can be a successful welfare state - but Americans are, as a whole, so addicted to cheap oil, being told what to think, mindless consumerism and being oblivious to the world that they will tolerate any government policies that maintain the status quo. The American populace is, collecitvely, possessed of the mentality of a selfish 4-year-old.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

20. I am a patriot American and will live to see America's golden age!!

It is worth saving!! :patriot: :patriot:

[Greyhound]

63. More likely a return to the guilded age. n/t

[Crazy Guggenheim]

69. I hope not. But I, for one, will fight for it's Golden Age.

:patriot: :patriot:

[Check12]

21. America is worth saving for sure

I'm just not sure if many americans are worth it.

[Surya Gayatri]

45. Do you mean the land mass, or what ?

In any case, the North American continent will endure long after the American Empire has passed from the world stage. Of what use are a few iconic documents and a body of Constitutional law if there is no one to live by them? SG :shrug:

[Hardrada]

22. What's one "superpower" more or less in the greater flow

of human history. Who misses the Russian and Ottoman empires, for instance? Or The French or British? Maybe we have to devolve into smaller states like what might happen with Iraq. I think many of us in the UPPER Midwest would be glad to severe connections with Jesusland.

[gordontron]

27. if you guys leave take us (the west) with you,

I'm not sure how it will work to have a state without connecting land, but whatever. and yes America is worth saving. There is still a lot of good in America

[philly_bob]

Blaming the Victim: Long-term results of 2000, 2004 election fraud?

Ask yourself whether you would be likely to feel that way under Presidents Gore and Kerry.

By the way, I feel much the same way.

When you're seat-belted into a car heading toward a cliff, you say "Swerve, dammit, swerve!"

[Lexingtonian]

23. Don't buy into the apocalypticism, mike

Liberal political eras end in the rising, vocal, tyranny of the stupid. Right wing political eras end in dissolution, decay, and finally subdual.

George Dubya has been burning up the political cred of the hard Right for five years. All of the overt and latent conservatism in The People has been tapped, is being exploited and slowly burned up. At this point we're a country about in which about 50%-60% of the people are liberated from that inner baggage of a Past that is about hate, fear, distrust, and cynicism, and trauma of bad families and ugly wars and inadequate opportunities.

We can't have the Past back. We live in a world with less hierarchy and greater autonomy than ever before, and hierarchy will continue to degenerate throughout our lifetimes. We have to make up for with better cooperativity and ever increasing collective responsibility.

America has all the stuff for greatness- the educated and creative and hardworking people, material resources, and no dilemmas not of our own making.

But white America has spent over 350 years trying to be a pre-Modern European society to the exclusion of all else, and the inherent limitations of that identity have been reached. That pre-Modern European social ideal created the wealthiest Western society there was- at the price of plundering a continent and dispossessing its aboriginal owners, and slavery- and expended that identity on helping Western Europe survive its internal, Continental, macro-cultural schisms (WW1/2), on Europe's final round of an old existential fight with the Asian Hordes (WW2/Cold War), and a last indulgence in Europe's old but lesser fight with the peoples of the Middle East (I/P, Kuwait, Iraq).

That identity is ending as Modernity slowly levels the world hierarchies and social barriers. Indeed, that America is dying. The American social future is not European/white, is not African, is not agrarian, is not industrial, is not traditionally Christian (i.e. European or other paganisms operating within a facade and frame of nominal Christianity). What this means is that American life loses its ideology-based definition (a convention of European thought), loses its certainty about what kind of people "look" the elite (contrast the public face of the Republican establishment with the public face of Hollywood), loses the family farm and respect given preachers and centrality given fossil fuels as inherently valuable things.

No one wants to talk about what that post-European, Modern, future America is and looks like. There is a lot of denial about it, really, a refusal to contemplate it and its place in the world. It isn't the opposite of what we have now, nor all qualities neutralized. It will be what Hegel call Synthesis. It's a country that looks and acts more according to its Indian heritage, in a wise fashion; it will actually become a civilization in the process and shed the colonial purposes/corruptions and oppressions that dominated its life for 400+ years. It will be a simpler and socially larger, and perhaps more just, place. It will be A More Perfect Union than we have now, and struggle to improve further on that notion. Our political era is defined by dismantling of the complicated present American social caste system defined by race, gender, and religion. The next political era will be more about dealing with the basic problem of socioeconomic class, structural poverty, and its several roots.

That next political era may seem irrelevant or unimaginable at the moment. But a realistic vision of the future being fought for is important- whatever the silliness and utopianism and pessimism/apocalypticism of the moment. Mankind carries on and doesn't forget where it left off. Our competition drives us on when our collective desire does not, and vice versa.

[baby_mouse]

34. This is all very reassuring but strikes me as somewhat starry-eyed.

I hope you're right...

I have been caught unawares recently by the idea that in fact the corruption hasn't been increasing but staying at roughly the same level and has become increasingly difficult to cover up in the Information Age....

Then I remember the penalties for drug use in the States and think: "Ah, actually it's getting worse."

If they manage to convince a sizeable portion of the US populace that warrantless wiretapping is necessary there's a BIG problem. This is NOT progress.

[Lexingtonian]

61. perhaps so

There will be a lot more pain and sacrifice and uncertainty before we get to There.

There is a growing tension between corruption and ever-encreasing media exposure. Bill Clinton said a few years ago that he asked Bob Dole after their Presidential race about whether politics was dirtier and governance more corrupt in the past. Dole had said it really was, partly because the media had covered and exposed so much less of it and in part because far fewer people had considered it their business. (We were a country with a far sharper social pyramid, then- more blue collar/less middle class, with power therefore much more concentrated in the elites, then.)

The media are a lower tier element of the political establishment of the country, and they behave that way. They have to balance their intermediary role between the powers above them and popular opinion below them. Where we see them not holding the powerful to account, they see an audience that wavers on holding its leaders to account with a few vocal people disputing which way to go.

The country "turned to the Right" in the mid-Sixties. The more I've looked at it, the less I believe that is true in an absolute way- it merely rearranged and polarized across a lot wider of a political spectrum. But the Right believes it on situational, empirical, grounds, which are also in their fashion correct. The reason both views are true is that center of public opinion about what the country should be and how it should be governed has stayed in much the same place since the mid-Forties, I believe. That was a solution that allowed the country to survive the Cold War. But we can't live on the terms of a Forties society for much longer, that's what unites us- the look backwards at the horrors that society was about.

[glitch]

49. Beautifully said. nt

[MN ChimpH8R]

83. As long as Diebold counts the votes

nothing can or will change. And we can do nothing about Diebold counting the votes.

[BigBearJohn]

24. Me, I'd like to divide the US into two sections -- Red and Blue

and let them soak in their own quagmire of stinkin shit

[scarletlib]

35. Two Points:

1. Many of the so-called red states may be purple and/or outright blue due to electoral vote theft.

2. Many, many liberal, generous good people live and vote in those states. Would you just leave us in the stinkin' shit? We are working to change things here.

[BigBearJohn]

79. My only point was to let the Republicans have their own state and the dems

have their own.

[OneBlueSky]

26. the American ideal is worth saving . . .

the nation, in its present form, is not . . . its time to start over and construct something that works . . . something "of the people, by the people, and for the people," to quote a famous Republican . . .

[hfojvt]

28. Read John Brunner's

The Sheep look up

and ask again.

Jump on the Austin Train.

[McKenzie]

29. I'm a Brit and I want to see the US I used to know recover

I might be related to some of you guys but even if I'm not I don't want to see a country that I used to admire go down the pan.

The fact that people are speaking out shows, quite clearly, that there is still a large sector of the US population that isn't rabid fundamentalist, corrupt or just completely nutz.

Don't abandon the good ol' US - take it back. Never surrender.

[Golden Raisin]

30. Depending on what

happens with the 2006 elections, it may already be too late. Your post is rather depressing but accurate and thought-provoking.

[lies and propaganda]

31. sometimes i wonder the same.

when i see even 7% approval ratings (i wish,) I cant help but wonder what metal defect those morans have, yet alone 50%.

[bklyncowgirl]

32. It's worth saving because I live here. Enough said. nt

[Toots]

33. To quote Gracie Slick "I would rather my country die for me"

:shrug: We can do better...

[stray cat]

36. No, we should nuke ourselves and commit mass suicide

I certainly do believe in a culture of life if this is the other type of proposal. Where do you anticipate finding perfect people in a perfect society who deserve to live in your definition?

[cali]

37. My knee-jerk response

to your question was to say of course the country is worth saving. And in the end, I have to believe that's true, but your assessment is accurate about so many of the things you bring up. What Lord Acton said about power doesn't apply only to people but also to nations; we've seen that often enough in the past. Frankly, if we are to judge the USA over the past 60 years, things look pretty dismal. In the end, whether or not America is worth saving is not the right question. We have to try and steer this country off the disasterous course it's on because there's no other real option. We have to stop it from getting worse than it's ever been, and not only for ourselves, but for the rest of the world.

[spun_in_montana]

38. When my Father returned from

Viet Nam, he renounced his citizenship and became a Mexican National. I refuse to do the same. So far.
While his experience differs from most, I cannot see giving up on this Country. I and my family, will ride this neocon nightmare out-be it to the revolution or the death.

[ourbluenation]

39. Join me in my campaign to take us all to the EU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=201500&mesg_id=201500

[H2O Man]

40. Yes.

Absolutely.

[annabanana]

41. I f America can't fix it's ailing Democracy..

No one will be able to sustain theirs. Every functioning democracy in the world right now is based on our example. We brought the world and the condition of man up from raw monarchies and brutal feudalism into a place where "ordinary people" can have some control over their destinies.

HELL YES IT'S WORTH FIGHTING FOR..

(are you MAD, man?)

[WilliamPitt]

42. Jesus

One thread filled with people looking to flee the country. Now this.

I'm pretty disgusted. Fixing what is wrong will take years, decades, a lifetime. If you're not up for it, maybe you should go. Maybe you're the one not worth saving.

[chimpymustgo]

47. What's the plan, Will? How do we beat the voting machines, the media,

the Supremes, the Congress, the Patriot Act II? The spineless, enabling Dems. Okay, let's fight - but how?

[WilliamPitt]

54. Not quitting

is a good first step.

Working in your area to grab one of the 15 seats we need in the House is another. If nothing in your area is available, look elsewhere...like Christine Cegalis in Hyde's old seat in Chicago.

Voting machines bla bla...they're not everywhere yet, not by a long chalk, and running that up the flag in every instance is just an excuse to sit on your ass.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. Thank You Will. 100% Accurate Statement. And "Not quitting is a good

first step" is the quote of the thread, in my opinion.

[tom_paine]

93. I'm not quitting either, guy and HELL YES, America is worth saving!

(what annabanana said two posts or so above me)

I'll be out there this summer and fall playing my part in what I increasingly perceive as the crookedest, biggest Reality Show in all of History...but I'll be there day in and day out for four or five months 3 days a week.

Just in case I am wrong...

[ourbluenation]

52. ashes to ashes - my peeps came from Ireland and I see nothing

wrong with going back from whence I came. It just may be that I want a little more for my children than a lifetime of fighting here.

My hunch is that the righties will implode eventually anyhow, with no help from us.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

46. I don't know. Is it?

That's a decision you have to reach on your own. Is the war on poverty worth fighting? Is the fight against hatred worth joining? I can't think of anything better to be doing with my time than working to save our country--our constitution, our land, our ideals.

If you don't like the state of affairs, then change them. It's that simple, and yet that complicated. What else are you going to do with your life?

[Greyhound]

65. "If you don't like the state of affairs, then change them."

OK, how?

[bigtree]

48. my two sons think so

[jokerman93]

50. I am waiting...

This is such a great thread! I'll bet many Americans are asking themselves these things right now - telling themselves - no doubt. It's an important dialog, to think of it that way.

kicked and nominated!
:kick:

And as a patriot I have to vote for:

We are America, and there's still a good chance we can yet become the free and just nation of many peoples we were intended to be - in far more than an idealized sense. Growth is a painful process at certain points and I believe this "becoming" thing is just getting started.

We are America as long as America keeps showing up every day. That's what I say. Things will change. They even seem to change quickly in this new century and time of ours -- "Our Time".

:toast:
citizen J

Here's a favorite - a birthday poem for DU, a love poem for America. :-)

I Am Waiting

I am waiting for my case to come up
and I am waiting
for a rebirth of wonder
and I am waiting
for someone to really discover America
and wail
and I am waiting
for the discovery
of a new symbolic western frontier
and I am waiting
for the American Eagle
to really spread its wings
and straighten up and fly right
and I am waiting
for the Age of Anxiety
to drop dead
and I am waiting
for the war to be fought
which will make the world safe
for anarchy
and I am waiting
for the final withering away
of all governments
and I am perpetually awaiting
a rebirth of wonder

I am waiting for the Second Coming
and I am waiting
for a religious revival
to sweep through the state of Arizona
and I am waiting
for the Grapes of Wrath to be stored
and I am waiting
for them to prove
that God is really American
and I am waiting
to see God on television
piped’ onto church altars
if only they can find
the right channel
to tune in on
and I am waiting
for the Last Supper to be served again
with a strange new appetizer
and I am perpetually awaiting
a rebirth of wonder

I am waiting for my number to be called
and I am waiting
for the Salvation Army to take over
and I am waiting
for the meek to be blessed
and inherit the earth
without taxes and I am waiting
for forests and animals
to reclaim the earth as theirs
and I am waiting
for a way to be devised
to destroy all nationalisms
without killing anybody
and I am waiting
for linnets and planets to fall like rain
and I am waiting for lovers and weepers
to lie down together again
in a new rebirth of wonder

I am waiting for the Great Divide to ‘be crossed
and I am anxiously waiting
for the secret of eternal life to be discovered
by an obscure general practitioner
and I am waiting
for the storms of life
to be over
and I am waiting
to set sail for happiness
and I am waiting
for a reconstructed Mayflower
to reach America
with its picture story and tv rights
sold in advance to the natives
and I am waiting
for the lost music to sound again
in the Lost Continent
in a new rebirth of wonder

I am waiting for the day
that maketh all things clear
and I am awaiting retribution
for what America did
to Tom Sawyer
and I am waiting
for the American Boy
to take off Beauty’s clothes
and get on top of her
and I am waiting
for Alice in Wonderland
to retransmit to me
her total dream of innocence
and I am waiting
for Childe Roland to come
to the final darkest tower
and I am waiting
for Aphrodite
to grow live arms
at a final disarmament conference
in a new rebirth of wonder

I am waiting
to get some intimations
of immortality
by recollecting my early childhood
and I am waiting
for the green mornings to come again
youth’s dumb green fields come back again
and I am waiting
for some strains of unpremeditated art
to shake my typewriter
and I am waiting to write
the great indelible poem
and I am waiting
for the last long careless rapture
and I am perpetually waiting
for the fleeing lovers on the Grecian Urn
to catch each other up at last
and embrace
and I am waiting
perpetually and forever
a renaissance of wonder

~Lawrence Ferlinghetti

[Zech Marquis]

51. this isn't America anymore

same place, but the people are so much indifferent to what's realy going on--for me I think I'll probably say farewell to Jesusland and relocate to Europe or Japan.

[channa18]

67. kick

[leeroysphitz]

53. Are you? n/t

[The River]

55. Which America Would You Save?

The 1776 America where only free white males voted or owned property?
The 1863 America where we engaged in a bloody civil war?
The 1943 America where we engaged in a World War for survival?
The 1950's America where a womans place was in the home and gays stayed in the closet?
The 1990 America where "Greed was Good"?

America is not a static "thing" which can be saved and restored to what it was yesterday.
America is an idea, an ideal and a set of underlying values which we look to for guidance
as the visible surface of America undergoes constant change.
Things may look bad now but they have looked worse.
Things will get much worse before they get better.

Take a look at the entire spectrum of human self governance from the very beginning.
From "might makes right" in ethnic tribal groupings through empires based on "divine right",
military conquest, theo centric commonality and, most recently, democracy. Even "Democracy"
is subject to evolution.
America began as a "National Democracy" which created a new "Nation". As the wheels of industry cranked into high gear, we evolved into an Industrial Democracy (What's Good for Business is Good for America).
This was replaced after WW2 by the current state of Corporate Democracy. America, I'm afraid, will remain a Corporate Democracy for many generations to come. We are entering a future which can only be guessed at after reading the entire science fiction section at Borders Books.

The Corporate "vote" is the only vote that matters now or in the near future.
Unless you are living a 100% "Mother Earth" lifestyle, you depend on some Corporation(s)
for everything in your life. Your food supply, your job, your home mortgage, your media,
your "vote" and yes, even your internet connection.
Until the Corporations run out of oil or raw materials from which to manufacture the
blinking distractions which keep us fat, lazy and stupid, they will remain in control.
Until most foods become a luxury.
Until the water and air are unfit to drink or breath will "we the People"
rise up and reclaim a Democracy based on basic sustainable human "Values" necessary
for human life.

The Greens, both here and in Europe, are the only ones who have a real clue
of how to "save" the America you mourn for.

[MN ChimpH8R]

86. That's the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

The Corporate Vote is the only one that counts. We are fodder for the machines.

[More Than A Feeling]

56. It may be fucked up in many ways, but it is still OUR fucked up country

We bear the responsibility for what our country has done, to different degrees, but still... We own this country just as much as the corrupt Republicans and their enablers do. They shouldn't be allowed to take it from us, and destroy it for their own selfish gain.

Anyway, we may not have a choice in the matter. We're kind of on a deadline here. This country may not be regained until after it is too late to prevent disaster.

[natrat]

70. oh yea it's our country-right--i was thinking more like corporation's

[laruemtt]

57. i compare the u.s. allegorically to my life -

i'm 53 now and have certainly made my fair share(more than?) of mistakes that could often have been fatal, mostly in my teens and 20s, but people (and benevolence from the universe) stepped in and i am so thankful to still be around. believe me, many times the survival was very questionable. i did and am still learning from my mistakes. that's how i see the u.s. we're going through a very turbulent dangerous adolescence now. we can learn and must learn from our mistakes, and imho we are worth saving!

[Greyhound]

66. Yet we make the same mistakes over and over. Apparently we

are incapable of learning and are doomed to repeat endlessly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. I'm Not Even Sure How To Reply To This Outside The Risk Of Being Deleted.

There is just so much wrong with this thread. So much weakness, so much misguidance and so much defeatism. Being frustrated is one thing. Recommending and trying to influence others that letting our country die completely is the right thing to do, is just such a vile statement it almost makes me want to vomit.

Luckily, weak statements and calls for surrender matter not to those who are truly fighting, not just saying they are fighting. Those of us that are truly fighting will fight regardless of negativity, and will always have the resolve to look straight into the eyes of the beast and continue on.

Our country is always worth saving, and I and my true american brethren will continue this fight with or without you, yet will still do it for you and everyone else. We will not back down, we will not give up and we will fight till the bitter end and rejoice in the beautiful beginning that occurs when victory is ours.

[natrat]

71. when we got no one fighting for us on the team

or most of the team has been bought by the other side---we are left with a rag tag band of little leaguers up against tripple A teams---so you could fight your little heart out and get nowhere,,,not even get to see the glimmer at the end of the tunnel---Personally i think america is totally full of shit,although there are people and places that are beautiful

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. Then Why Do You Still Choose To Live Here?

Since you can't stand the country and aren't even willing to fight for her, what keeps you here?

Just curious. :hi:

[natrat]

74. let me get this straight-i am american indian-and you dare ask me that ?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. Race Matters Not. Attitude Does.

Yes I dare. I don't care what race you are. It doesn't matter what race someone is in order to continue fighting for our country. Someone who dislikes this country that much and has an attitude that hopeless about trying to save it and has given up to the extent you posted above, than I think asking what keeps you here is a legitimate question.

See, I explode on people (usually freepers) who say to me "why don't you leave then". But you want to know why I explode? Because I tell them that I'm here to fight for MY country, and that I'm not gonna leave MY country because fascists have taken over. And that I'M doing my part to take our country back and in order to do that I need to be here. And I say that I'M not going anywhere because this country needs us to fight and I'm gonna continue fighting till we take her back.

But in the absence of that spirit, but instead one of defeat and hopelessness, what's the point in even staying?

This country isn't full of shit, and our efforts are not futile and worthless. We have the power and we will continue to fight, with or without those who declare the fight is hopeless.

[tom_paine]

94. Pretty damned fine statement for an effing Rangers fan!

:toast:

LET'S GO FLY-ERS!

[Dogmudgeon]

64. Sez you

Nothing personal, Mike, but I'm going to stay and fight.

So we have an ignorant, corrupt asshole for a president, we live in uncertain times, and have developed some bad national habits. They can be fixed, re-cultivated, and if need be, impeached. The rest of the world is experiencing similar problems, too.

Some things are worth fighting for. The American Democracy is one of them.

--p!

[LiberalPartisan]

72. Not this America

America is a set of ideals embodied in the Constitution. That Constitution is presently being shelved to make way for the Fascist States of America. And the sheeple applaud. The ideals of America are not defined by nor confined to a geographical area, they can be employed anywhere, so if possible I say begin anew elsewhere and leave this land to the New American Nazis. Maybe we can come back in a few decades, all full of 'I told you so' and clean up the mess but for the present it appears Americans want their little experiment in Fascism more than the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

[Spinoza]

75. America has been (and still is)

a literal life-saver for tens of millions of immigrants. My own family included. Even today hundreds of thousands of people literally risk their lives every year trying to get into America by hook or by crook. Very few recent immigrants would wonder if America is "worth saving". For many of us America has literally meant life vs death.

[Rich Hunt]

78. what the hell?

Of course it is.

I still like the Constitution, so why not? That IS the law of the land....

[Clara T]

80. Of course not

That's easy to see.

The need to adhere or worship at the altar of a national system of governance has always struck me as a bit of a pathology. And of course the question/answer should be extended so as to display the characteristics of The Insane Society and its origins. Now consensual validation has conditioned Americans to consider the collective pathology of its peoples to be normal, but this does not make that behavior any less sane.

The fact that so many people share the same vices does not make these vices virtues, I do not mean that in any moralistic sense.

Also, people like to swim in the bathos of "Wanting the country back", but any intellectually honest and comprehensive view of America shows that it has been a pretty bloody, oppressive and earth destroying enterprise all along the way. It is happening at warp speed now due to technology and a particularly criminal administration (easily the worst ever) but the seeds for what we are experiencing at present were sown many years ago and have been nurtured all along the way by a certain American way of being that is completely wrapped in violence. The nostalgia for an America that never was is understandable but simply and sadly leaves us attempting to 'fix' something that was always broken.

[against all enemies]

84. YES, for the rich! could you poor people please go away?

[Ksec]

85. a better question is are Americans worth saving

These idiots voted the disaster in. They look past his torture, spying on us, saying outsourcing is good for Americans, cheating on everything he does, backroom deals with corporate powers , etc.

Are the people who say this is fine worth saving? I say no.

[mikelewis]

87. Those are precisely the people who need saving.

If we're going to save America, we have to save everybody, even those we can't stand.

[TheWatcher]

89. What if some of those we can't stand don't WANT to be saved MIke?

What if they'd rather do away with you instead?

What do you do then?

What do you do with those that are so convinced Bush is right they'd gladly see us disappeared or killed or silenced if it could be done without consequences?

I think we should not give up on this country no matter what. We should fight till the end, and go down swinging even if there is no hope.

But we must face the reality that some of our countrymen have crossed the Rubicon, and they are not coming back, and they do not WANT to come back. And there are unfortunately a great many, perhaps more than we want to admit, who actually SUPPORT the REAL Bush agenda, and have all along, because they identify with it, and they are just as bad as he and his cabal are. The only difference is they do not have the Power, Money, or Influence to pull it off. But the support it and enable it nevertheless.

You aren't going to be able to save them all, Mike, whether you want to or not, and it does NO good to attempt to reach those who are unreachable, if the result is going to be you yourself being taken out of the fight.

While your statement is correct in some respects, we are going to have to find a way to save this country, including the people we cannot stand, DESPITE them, and as for the people we cannot stand, we may end up having to defend ourselves AGAINST them as well if they come after us directly.

It's not pretty, and it's an ugly proposition, but this is one of the ugliest times in our history.

I reached a point not long ago when I had just boiled over and decided I could no longer co-exist with those we cannot stand either. But I realized that is no better a solution then the fate they would wish for us, and although understandable, not practical. You, along with several others, attempted to shout me down as some sort of foaming-at-the-mouth radical reverse Nazi that was no better than they were, when in reality I was just fed up, scared, and at my breaking point. Don't worry, I don't hold it against you, no matter how ridiculously presumptuous it was.

I believe that America is worth saving because of the POTENTIAL of what this country could still be. Despite what we have become, it is still possible, no matter how faint, to reverse course, even if we have to somehow start over from scratch. If we look at our history and how our country was developed after the Revolution, the REAL reality of what America has been, we would find that by looking at our history OBJECTIVELY, we really want to save the dream of an America that never was and never has been, but what America STILL COULD BE, if we get our shit together somehow.

And to me, that makes America worth saving. The desire, the dream, and the potential of what we can be is still there, and it still lives and is present in many of us. We have lost our way as a country, there is no question about that, and we are closer to losing our country now more than we ever have been before in some respects, but as long as the concept and potential of what America COULD be and COULD become still exists, yes it IS worth saving.

Also, our history is rich with plenty examples of this potential and desire to be what we can be applied first hand. Plenty of wonderful things have happened that show what we could become. You know what they are as well as I do, and they do not need to be listed here, for it would take more space than this server will allow.

What we must do is find a way to get around and fight back the Powers that seek to hold us back from our potential and what we could be because of their own self-serving agendas and interests. They care nothing about America and what it could be. They only want to use it as a means to their own ends. They are not Patriots nor countrymen, but scoundrels seeking to take advantage of this country's Power and Wealth to enrich their own self-interests and themselves. You know who they are, and I don't need to list THEM either. Until we do that, we will never progress as a Nation.

So yes, America IS worth saving, despite our current state.

At the same time, we MUST face the reality that there are those who don't WANT to be saved. We cannot help them directly, and we may end up having to defend ourselves from them.

We are going to end up having to save this country DESPITE itself, and DESPITE some of our fellow countrymen.

But we must not Give Up, and we must never Give In.

I will say the same thing I said in my Post on Friday.

FIGHT THEM ANYWAY.

It is worth saving Mike. And we will have to ATTEMPT save everyone, even those we cannot stand, despite themselves. We will just have to find a way to somehow co-exist with them after we prevail, and make every attempt to somehow get them to come around to the light. But if they do not WANT to be saved, there is nothing we can do for them.
And we cannot force them to see our point of view, or force them to live it, if they choose not to. If we are to have the country we want after all, we must have that choice available for them, even if it not what we want, or for the greater good. That is part of what America is about.

In the end, THEY will have to make that choice, and we cannot make it for them. If they choose not to come, we cannot save them from whatever fate results in that action. And we cannot allow them to destroy this country anymore than those we are fighting against. It is they who will choose their fate and they who will have to live with it.

The rest of us have work to do.

Let's get to it.

[mikelewis]

90. Do you have faith in the Constitution?

[TheWatcher]

91. What does THAT have to do anything?

Of course I do, and I would assume you do as well.