Poll: At what age did you recognize the class war?

[skids]

At what age did you realize that class warfare was not an abstract concept in your social studies textbook -- that this country has always had, and has to this day, been an economic battleground?

Actually, to be more specific -- at what point did you realize that the middle class is not Sweden in the class war, that it is under attack along with the poor? Not to downplay the suffering of the poor, but that part is easy to see even for the very naive.

(EDIT: And if you had a "defining moment" please do tell.)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. I clicked early career but

It wasn't really my job that pointed it out. I was in the military and I had figured out that officers came from more advantaged backgrounds but that wasn't really what did it. I realized it when I was getting turned down for credit cards but my counterparts in their early 20s who were in college or had gone to college were getting them like they were candy. In retrospect, I think that was probably to my benefit but it still rankled nonetheless. Here I was gainfully employed serving my country, while my friends were just taking a few classes. But I was the one deemed un-credit-worthy. I couldn't get one until I was 27 years old.

[BlueIris]

2. Early teens. Parents decided I was best friends with someone "rich."

And so she had to go. They bullied me into breaking off the friendship because of their prejudice against those they perceived to be inherently "better off." Didn't matter that my friend was hardly from a wealthy, "connected" family, (solidly third-generation middle class; my parents are only second gen middle class and were disgusted by what they'd heard the girl say about the girl's grandparents buying the family's first home after the parents graduated from college and got married) and that she is to this day the closest friend I have ever known. It totally broke her heart and I still feel guilty that at thirteen I didn't realize that my parents were just irrationally unhappy about my simply having made friends with someone from a family they thought of as more socio-economically powerful. OK, and looking back, I recognize the somewhat more understandable class-based, politically motivated resentment, too. Her parents hadn't exactly...done anything in the '60s, beyond vote for moderate Dems, and my parents have always been heavily critical of those who were young and American at that time who didn't get arrested at least once in a march, sit-in or demonstration against the war and the right during those years. This was '91-92, by the by, before my parents largely lost the last of their sincere commitment to The Cause, (my dad was already getting sucked to the right at that point, and I think he even ended up voting Perot in '92) and many of their '60s memories were yet visceral.

I still miss my friend.

[skids]

7. Wow -- you live in the Bizzarro Universe.

I really wasn't expecting the role-reversed version. Kudos on managing not to become one of those "Republicans because my parents were hippies and I needed to rebel somehow" people.

[BlueIris]

10. You know what? I totally fucking do.

My hometown and most of the cities I've lived in have been like this (the really contentious social divisions have been more along the lines of value systems than class, though, I think, but it seems that I always get kinda screwed over by the entirely class-based ones).

At the moment, I am struggling to (once again; third time since finishing college) function in a work environment that is staffed almost exclusively by individuals who don't consider themselves middle class, and have decided that I must be, and therefore totally fucking hate me for it (it's not like I'm drowning in opportunities in the New World Economy, either). I have never been anything but an open-minded, non-judgmental, non-condescending team player in my work places. (I don't try to "relate" to those struggling with extreme economic hardships when my own are hard, but maneagable, I don't attempt to "bond" with the coworkers over the struggles "we've" had to get by in a racist, elitist world when, well, my professional life has been limited by the lack of jobs available to those with degrees...anywhere I can afford to move to, but it isn't like that's the same thing a black man trying to remain economically stable in America goes through.) I simply try to blend in, do my work, follow all appropriate policies and guidelines and be polite to co-workers.) Still, it doesn't take coworkers very long to sluice out and make their judgments about my presumptive class and start punishing me for it. This latest ride is especially fun, since I went out of my way not to mention my background, my education, my other jobs (none of which are exactly resumé boosters) or anything personal about me and this shit is STILL going on. For the record, I don't think anything about my physical appearance or manner of dress "gives me away," nor does my vocabulary, dialect, accent, whatever. I'm not even all that pretty!!! You'd think this would make it easier for people to not resent me. Sometimes I wonder what it'll be like if I ever get a job among members of the mysterious upper class I have known so little about in my professional life. If it's the air of classlessness about me that is screwing me over in these work environments, I have this bad feeling it may be worse for me working among displaced aristocrats, though. No one likes someone they can't classify, so to speak.

[bahrbearian]

3. How about when Reagan was Elected?

[Vidar]

4. Early teens. Read a lot of ancient history & didn't much like the

patricians.

[Withywindle]

5. 17!

I was in college in upstate NY ...and the guy I was sweet on and I both took the Metro North train to Penn Station in NYC.

From there, he took a taxi to the airport, and I took the subway to the Greyhound station.


(I had never known rich people before then. I knew people with college scholarships like me, but, wow, plane tickets--just for Christmas!--freaked me out! This was in the mid-80s.) This was the point where I realized I was not just a "neutral" entity--middle-class for the region I grew up in, but poor for the level of kids who'd blow my $60 monthly allowance in one night on cocaine.

I never wanted to flush money down the toilet like that once I'd seen it firsthand.

[Alacrat]

6. I said early, but not because of monopoly

It was when I entered junior high, some black students started calling me a rich white boy. I heard this over and over. My parents were normal in every way, my Dad was a salesman, my Mom a nurse. I didn't wear the fashionable cloths, didn't have the expensive air jordan shoes. My parents didn't buy me a car when I turned 16. I bought one myself, with a little help from them, before going to college. I never knew what made them look at me, and call me a rich white boy. We were about as well off as any of them, and we were all far from rich. I also experienced this when I got hired at the fire dept. Many black firefighters called me a rich white kid, and thought anything I had was handed to me by my parents. All I had was a 79 jeep CJ5, and lived with my parents, I was 20 years old, this was 1991. Again I was wearing the least expensive pair of acceptable (uniform standard) shoes I could get, and had a $10 timex watch.I've worked my ass off since I was 12, cutting grass, cleaning gutters, and raking leaves. When I was 15, I got a job at a local gas station, pumping gas, and sweeping the parking lot, I made $2 an hour, this was in 1985, I made $80 a week, working 7 days a week, not bad for a 15yo, but again not rich either. I guess there are some people who believe if you are white, you are rich, and have had everything handed to you. Just like there are white people who look at blacks, and assume they are poor, live in the ghetto, and are gang bangers. I never had those preconceived notions about anyone. IMO class warfare, is learned, just like racism. I saw at a young age, the difference between the have and have nots, and how the economy, taxes and inflation, affects the poor much more than the rich. Also societies perception of people if they are poor or rich. The poor are viewed by many as less than human, and stupid, and the rich are viewed as greedy and smug.

[Disturbed]

8. My step dad was a Sgt. in the Army.

I noticed in my early teens that the officers apts were a whole lot more spacious and grand than the enlisted personnel's were. When I started looking at society it was obvious that there were many different classes there, as well.

[acmejack]

9. That's a good point, but I always just thought that was a military thing.

I still played with the Officers kids. I went to school with them I went to their houses and knew their parents. But now that you mention it, I never swam in the Officer's pool! It was of course much bigger and nicer than the enlisted pool and served many less people.

[BlueIris]

22. Sounds like the "rich white boy" charges were stemming from a

perception that you had benefitted enormously in your life from white priviledge. Not saying the perception was accuate--at all--or that predjudice based on perceived life experience is valid, at all, (I agree with you that classism, like racism, is learned) but...from what I've observed, caucasian individuals are utterly oblivious to how much is handed to them by our increasingly racist society on the basis of light skin color alone. Still not suggesting it was right that non-white coworkers (or anyone else) made assumptions, but I can sort of understand how that happened.

[Alacrat]

31. I agree

There are some guys at the fire station who will always have those preconceived judgments, irregardless of the other person's back ground. I have been there 16 years , and now many of those guys are great friends. The judgments went away when the realized, just like them, I was working payday to payday, scrambling every month to pay rent(I moved out when I was 21), and keep my poor old jeep running. Things are far better now, I grew up, became a responsible adult, and also own a small business. Times were tough back in the day, having to choose between beer money, or rent. Times were pretty simple also, I wish that was the most important decision I had to make now. laughing!

[izzie]

11. I just grew up with it. In small towns every one knows every one

I was born in the early 30's. Old people had little and it was pointed out that one must save all the time for that day. We also had chickens so lots of eggs and my mother used to have us run in to the poor farm and give them our extra eggs. I was also the only kid in town that's mother had her own car and a maid. She was very ill but also did things no other women did. We also were kids that went to the dentist with one other girl and for some reason every one made fun about it. "think your rich because you go to the dentist?" I did not feel lucky about going to the dentist.I guess or know now many did not waste money on baby teeth in those days.

[HeavensHell]

15. The "good" life

I first realized there was a class system when I entered public school. Most of my childhood years I spent with people who were no different from me. We were sheltered but when we entered public school man did the other kids hate us. I had no idea about rich and poor, ect. Like I said I was sheltered. Throughout high school it was hard to tell who were my real friends and who was just using me.. By the time I entered college I toned down talking about my home life till people got to know me... I got tired of the sarcastic; "Why are you working? You dont have to!" When I started my career I stopped talking about it all together. I don't think I'm better than anybody else. I don't believe I'm entitled to more just because I'm my fathers son. My mother always told me growing up; "Son, you can have every thing in the world and still have nothing!" Those words always stuck with me. Some times living the "good life" comes at a very heavy cost. One of those costs was losing my family. We rarely ever see each other or speak. Just recently my father stopped by to make sure "I was still alive."

[BlueIris]

16. Holy crap. "'Why are you working? You dont have to!'"

Yikes. And I thought I had been the periodic target of prejudice from those who consider me and my upbringing (which didn't even include health insurance for fuck's sake) the epitome of elitist oppression, but that reaction goes WAY BEYOND anything I've ever encountered. Jesus. How rude.

[HeavensHell]

20. And it still happens

Even when I'm out enjoying a drink... I've gotten reactions from the bartender such as; "Oh must be nice to enjoy daddy's money." I feel the only way to get be my own person is to completely leave the state. The reaction about why work, if I didn't state it, was from a really close friend of mine. People feel I work because I'm bored. I work because I am independent and have pride in myself. There are reasons for people's reactions. I live in an area that is economically depressed and my family works in NYC but we are very well known in my hometown. Jealousy reigns supreme here but what they don't understand is the hidden "costs" to this kind of lifestyle. I don't have a family in the real sense. It's been sacrificed for dollars and cents.

[BlueIris]

25. Sadly, based on what my one or two friends from "well-off" NY families

have told me...leaving the state might be one of the only ways to get any peace. Which is not to say that it's going to alleviate the not-so-hidden costs of your lifestyle at all, unfortunately. The two guys I know who have gone through what you are putting up with have said they literally had to come all the way out West to get away from the stifling hate-fest back home, and then it was a whole new set of headaches. Nothing quite as overtly appalling as that "Why are you working/you don't have to!" line, but not wonderful. (My friend, "Ellis," keeps having women throw themselves at him, harass him, stalk him, etc., and has an impossible time finding dates with anyone who is not obviously interested in his family's money alone, and my friend "Harris," who doesn't swing that way, is having the same issues in his search for a decent boyfriend...and man, Harris' dating life has taken some ugly turns out here, including one nasty incident involving a short-lived attempt by one of his partners at identity theft, if you can believe that. Not to mention how culturally alienated both sometimes feel.)

[HeavensHell]

26. It is sad

Funny you should mention out west, cause thats where I was thinking of heading.... I'm hoping for a new start. I've had a few nasty relationships here, but I build a reputation hehe so I don't get the gold diggers so much. Well they hide the gold digging until after the break up. I'm sorry and I can relate to what your friends are going through. Once I'm gone, there will be no mention of my life back in NY!!!! I've learned from my mistakes. A lot of people believe money will solve all their problems but what they don't understand is the isolation that comes with it.... I will admit growing up I walked into this situation I now am in, but I didn't realize it at the time. When I'd ask people to go to the mall or out and would get the response, "I don't have the money." My response was, "I didn't ask that." I guess in a way I bought my friends. Pretty pathetic huh?

[izzie]

32. My father said every one had to work. And we started young

and we had to bank our money. We had a black board behind the kitchen door and you got to do nothing until the list was done. Then we had to go our side the house and work when we got old enough. I just thought every one was sort of the same only some fathers make a little more then others.

[WePurrsevere]

12. Although I sort of knew about it when younger it really hit me hard when

as a young teen my father, new step-mom and step-sibs went on a cruise to the Caribbean... and stopped in Haiti. The contrast of what I was used to as a middle class kid brought up in the 'burbs and the horrible poverty that I saw at the port of Haiti hit me like the broadside of a beam. The whole scene of people begging for "rich" tourists to buy something from them for what to us is chump change and the "rich" trying to DICKER a person down over a beautiful hand carved mahogany statue for $5. item that was easily worth 5 times that or more stateside so overwhelmed me that I begged to go back on the ship.

Since then I've been both "poor" and "comfortable"... I've kept good company with the "rich" and the homeless on the street. I've been lucky to have a family that has been there when I would have ended up on the streets otherwise and when I needed a helping hand up it was before the "Contract On America" and the "Reverse Robin Hood" way of "governing". I've been healthy and disabled... thin and fat... sadly "classism" and bigotry are everywhere, although some have tried to disguise it by calling it "compassion" (BS! :puke: ).

[TalkingDog]

13. Defining moment. When the women at the Chain Store laughed at me

and my cottage-mates from the orphanage I lived in.

I was 6. I knew why they were laughing.

'Nuff sed?

Oh, no wait...one more....

My 2nd grade public school teacher yelled at the entire class that she was ..."sick and tired of paying my tax money for all you welfare brats."

Ah, yes...I remember it well.... good times...good times. (I don't use smilies, so insert sarcasm tag here < )

[BlueIris]

17. This post made me cry.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Anyone who "recognizes" it after age five is on the wrong side

Gnaw mean?

[Lilith Velkor]

24. Gnaw

Watchoo mean?

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. If ya need ta "recognize"

Then you bettah ask somebody.

[Lilith Velkor]

30. You somebody, aintcha?

[OnionPatch]

18. Early teens

but not because my friend got whisked off to private school. It was because that's when my father sank deeply into alcoholism and my mother, who was following society's rules and was merely a housewife, could barely afford to support us once our breadwinner hit the skids. We had to move into the projects and take food stamps to eat. The evil looks people gave us in the grocery store line when we used those food stamps was the first time I really woke up to class warfare.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. I grew up poor in a Socialist family.

There's nothing like being a hungry kid to give one a first hand knowledge of the class-war. But, the middle-class spurns the poor as much, or more, than the aristocracy.

Classism isn't merely a top vs bottom phenomenon. The aristocracy may be at the top of the heap, but the "middle-class" is eager to look down their noses at anyone who doesn't live in a nice house, has the wrong skin color, or hasn't accumulated as many toys.

[BlueIris]

21. Yeah. For some elite, it's money/influence. For some middle class,

it's status (especially as reflected through property ownership, educational pedigree and representation of ethnicity).

[Jed Dilligan]

23. Private school scholarship kid, K-8

'nuff said.

[leftofthedial]

27. early teens

I knew some of the differences between poor, middle class and rich earlier than that, but that there was a class war being waged downward by the wealthy did not become apparent to me until I began pondering access to higher education. I had perfect SAT scores and third-party scholarships that paid my way. I was a "hall-of-fame" kind of kid academically, athletically, musically and extra-curricularly (and I like making up words too!). I should have been able to go to school anywhere, but I found that certain schools wouldn't accept me without alumni sponsorship. For some schools, the local alumni didn't view me as "their kind of people," that is, I wasn't the kid of one of the prominent local rich country club repukes. Those kids were able to go wherever they wanted, despite mediocre grades, legal problems and weak academic records.

[ThatsMyBarack]

29. When I was 9....

....I went to an all-girls camp in Wisconsin. I was the "odd girl out" for not having all the latest "preppie" fashions.

[BlueIris]

33. I can't believe this thread doesn't have more posts.

I mean, I know it's sad, but it's one of DU's best ever, in my humble opinion. I expected to come home from work and find that it had exploded with contributions. What happened?

[skids]

39. I have no cult following.

No worries. It doesn't bother me in the least. I found the response was very edifying and thank my fellow DUers for taking the time to share.

[earth mom]

34. In my last year and a half of high school, I became best friends

with a girl whose Dad was a well off dentist. My Dad was a house painter and painted her next door neighbors house. She and I both drove the same kind of car. Her parents gave her her car. My parents scraped up some money to add to the more than half that I had saved up to help me buy my car. My friend and I had a great friendship and lots of fun, but I was always aware of the differences between us.

[fortyfeetunder]

35. Too many damn turning points before 10th birthday.

Witnessing segregation and poverty. Why a kid had to see all that then....

Seeing segregated medical facilities in the 1960's....yes the 1960's in the South. Airconditioned for whites with chairs, no A/C and sitting on a bench for blacks.

Another minor yet defining moment...meeting a paternal great aunt who lived in abject poverty, yet happy. My maternal grandfather made fun of her. I lost respect for him at that point.

Resurrection City in DC. Riots. Being told the springtime parades in the city were cancelled, because as one teacher said "too many responsibilities". Trying to make sense of why the areas we used to shop in were destroyed beyond repair.

[NMMNG]

36. In grade school

My mom, recently divorced for the second time, had to go on welfare while going to nursing school and supporting the three of us. The way she talked being "on welfare" was something to be ashamed of (this was pre-Reagan era no less). I got reduced-price lunches in school which meant when I paid for lunch in the cafeteria I used a ticket instead of money and the other kids would make fun of me.

Even after my mom got out of school and became established as a nurse things were still tight and we never had it easy. We lived in the "poor" section of town whereas many of my classmates lived in the nicer, more expensive area of town. Even within my neighborhood there were the better sections and the older, more dilapidated areas--and of course I lived in one of the older areas.

While many of my peers never had to work a day during their school years, I worked almost from the day I turned 14 (I tried to begin working at 12 but state law forbid children working prior to 14). I'd work full time or as close to it as possible in the summer, and part-time during the school year.

[aaronbees]

37. When I was growing up I felt it watching my parents raise us

(me and my sister). My mom worked several jobs as a single mom to raise us in the old family farmhouse away from the established neighborhoods in town. Often, instead of a babysitter it would be our grandpa who'd come over and watch over us while my mom worked nights. I know at times my grandparents must've helped my mom financially though that was all quiet. I could sense it when going over to a friend's house and their homes were these immaculate, spotless upper middle class homes where the dad's gizmos (boat, etc.) and the mom's decked-out kitchen ruled the roost in very traditional family settings. We had none of that stuff and frankly didn't miss it, that I can recall. I could taste it uncomfortably when an uncle would complain about "black families" moving into the neighborhood and babbling about house values going down and nonsense like that. Or how amongst the pre-adolescent group of kids I'd hang out with at the bus stop it was generally the poorer kids who got picked on first. On his own, my father had a rough time of it before and even after he first remarried. He owned a used bookstore for a while and lived in the back of it; when my sister and I would come up to visit, we'd sleep on sleeping mats on the floor. Didn't bother me at all, but I knew it was different than other families and, in retrospect, I think it must've hurt my dad on some level to not be the kind of provider he imagined he'd be. But it was okay with us, that's for sure. Honestly, we didn't grow up with many hardships at all, but I always knew we were "different" than what I saw in standard middle-class homes.

So, no defining moment, just a slow, growing awareness I suppose.

[HughBeaumont]

38. College.

Learnt a lot about life in college, specifically at the 4-year and not relating to my major. Learned that I made a poor choice in the 88 election, learned that free-trade, give-the-corporations-whatever-they-want-and-it-will-work-for-the-lower-have-nots-in-the-end economics is a pile of bat shite first hand. Coming out of the associates degree in '91, there wasn't a DAMNED job to apply for, at least not anything that would get you out of the Parent's Hilton. If there wasn't a sign on the door that said "Not Accepting Resumes or Applications At All", the personnel/HR people would just flat out tell you there was a freeze, we weren't hiring, we'll call you, etc etc, ad nauseum. I'd peer into these places and there'd usually be rows and rows of empty cubes, only the chosen few that were just happy to have a job for whatever reason walking around.

Then I went to college and read up a shitstorm on this phenomena and realized that Economics really can be summed up in one sentence - "Horatio Alger, which may have worked long ago in fantasy land, is BULLSHIT." I feel that the wealthy of this nation truly do not give a fuck about the truth that when the little guy prospers, EVERY class is better off in the long run. I truly think that they HATED what went on in the mid-to-late 90s (that is, a few normal Joes threatening to reach their country club) and started to throw everything in their power to make sure that we ants are kept in line, and for GOOD. They would sacrifice the long-term prosperity of this country to keep the gap between us and them growing ever greater by the day. They toss you the occasional bone for a period of a few years, but historically it's pretty much been gangbusters for the Robber Barons while we get the shit-end of the Charmin.

Seeing any shoe-strings potentially turning into the next Microsoft lately? Anytime one does (i.e. Napster, youtube, etc), they eventually get crushed, corporatized and marginalized. Very few, such as Amazon, survive and it took them years to turn a profit. Old Money Corporations own everything. They control the message. They control religion. They control the vote process. They control government, the military, the politicians, the infrastructure, and in turn, our progress. Try starting up a business or offer a service that a Wal-Mart, Microsoft or some other mega-conglomerate chain doesn't offer and wouldn't instantly price you out of.

[BlueIris]

40. Anyone else? This thread is so great.

Come on! Bring the enlightenment!

[SoCalDem]

41. I grew up watching wrenching poverty.

I remember asking why the "poor people" lived in "houses" made from cardboard boxes, when there were pretty houses on the "other side" of the fence.. (Panama 50's & 60's)

[Nikia]

42. When I went to elemenetary talented and gifted class

The gifted program took students from all the city's elementary schools and met one day per week according to grade level. Over half the students in the class were from one elementary school, which I learned was the rich kids' school. Some elementary schools were not represented at all which may have had something to do with them being the poor kids' schools. My elementary school was also one of the "poor schools" but there was one other girl in the class from me whose father was a college professor. I hadn't really thought about class until then because I didn't think of myself as a class, which was at the time, economically poor but middle class.

[Nikia]

43. I saw more examples as I got older

When my mother married her second husband, who had an upper level managment job at a national company, we moved to the edge of town to his house in a subdivision. The school district that the house was in was a rural district with students from a variety of backgrounds, more so than in my city elementary school. There were students who lived in some of the most expensive houses in the county. There were students who lived in trailer parks. There were students who lived on farms. There was everything in between. The first girl that befriended me lived in a trailer park. I still had not thought too much about class then. I soon learned that to be friends with the richer students who I lived near, although several went to private school instead, that I had to choose between them and my trailer park friends.
When I went away to college, there were some students that didn't need to worry about getting a job after college. It was all arranged. They just had to get a degree. They were pretty tolerant of poorer students but not those adult dining hall workers and cleaning staff, but they ruthlessly bad mouthed just for being poor.
When I applied to jobs, I found that there were jobs for certain types of people. I also found out that if you took certain jobs at certain companies that you would never get promoted. Certain people were hourly employees. Certain people were salaried employees. Once an hourly employee, always an hourly employee.
These are just some examples from my class experience.

[Kat45]

44. I learned when I hit college.

I grew up working class/lower middle class, and most of the folks in town were at the same level. I just thought that's how everyone was, because that's how everyone I knew was. I got my first hint when the college I went to accepted me as a commuting student, although I had applied as a resident student. Though I didn't quite realize it yet, they were telling me I couldn't afford to live there and they weren't going to give me the aid to do so. Fortunately, my parents won some money in the state lottery that year and that paid most of my tuition. (I got some small scholarships and loans.)

The school was fairly elite, and I began to realize that most of the kids were rich kids. I couldn't relate to them at all and ended up hanging out with other commuters, who were also working class kids. (Commuters were a small percentage of students at the school.) Some of the comments from classmates reinforced the class schism I was seeing. People would be shocked that I was a commuter--they'd never heard of us. One girl said to me, well you're already paying x-amount tuition, what's a couple of thousand more? That really drove it home.