Mexican flag raised at Maywood, CA post office

[silverojo]

Whatever your position on the issue, these illegal aliens and their supporters have gone too far. They took down the US flag, raised a Mexican flag in its place, then threw rocks and bottles at the police as they tried to take the Mexican flag down.



There's also video of it on YouTube already:

Mexican flag hoisted over Maywood, CA post office, Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eISWvvMdA

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFuAStnEt8&NR


I hear Lou Dobbs did a story on this, but I missed the first airing; I'm going to catch the repeat tonight. All I know is, if they're trying to make Americans sympathetic to their plight, they've made a huge mistake.

What's the point of coming to a country that you don't even like or respect? And I'm tired of them calling people "racist" just because some people have a different point of view of how a problem should be handled by our government. Especially when, in these videos, you hear them hurling racist epithets at the Americans, like "white, blue-eyed devils".

I haven't watched all the videos posted by this user on YouTube yet, but I've heard that there's also footage of the mob beating up on a woman and an elderly man. I don't think my stomach could handle seeing that.

This isn't a left-wing or right-wing issue. This is an AMERICAN issue, when something like this happens on federal property.

[jpgray]

1. Well, CA is their ancestral homeland

A little over the top though.

[Deja Q]

5. Do they speak Spanish?

Or the language they originally had, before Cortez and his buddies "bestowed" upon them Spanish (and Christianity)? (and not by choice, may I add...)

[jpgray]

12. Well CA used to belong to Mexico

Of course, hardly any Mexcians/Americans/Europeans were in it at the time.

[itsrobert]

18. California was in the hands of Mexico for 25 years

25 years. That's it. Read your history. Maybe they should raise the flag of Spain instead?

[jpgray]

21. Insofar as in general Mexico began as a Spanish/indigenous blend

I'd say the Mexican flag makes enough sense. It's a point of view, expressed in an over the top way. I'm not advocating what they did, but I'm just trying to get where they're coming from.

[jerry611]

28. They are coming from stupidity

There was a war fought 160 years ago. They lost, they signed the treaty, therefore it is no longer their land. End of story!

That's how the world works. A vast majority of the world's population does not live on their ancestor's land. People get moved around.

If this is the idea you want to go by, maybe we should give the colonies back to Great Britain.

[Ken Burch]

256. Yes, people DO get moved around...

Which is another reason not to get too obsessed with which side of a border a person is born on.
Also, the fact that the injustice was 160 years ago doesn't mean it ceases to be an injustice.

The answer is cross-boarder organizing for workers' rights and social justice, not dividing working people by nations. A worker is a worker is a worker. The answer is justice for all.

[unlawflcombatnt]

289. Excellent Point

Wars have been fought and settlements have been reached as to who owns what countries and who'll govern that country. As you stated, California is part of the United States. A treaty was signed and it's a done deal.

Illegal immigrants are not people who were already living in what is now California. People that were residents at that time became American citizens, and their ancestors became American citizens. Those living South of the U.S.-Mexican border are Mexicans, not U.S. citizens. Those crossing the border unlawfully are illegal immigrants. There are legal channels for coming to this country. Those that use them become legal residents. Those that don't are illegal and are breaking U.S. law. What country "owned" what part of this continent 200 years ago has nothing to do with anything.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[radwriter0555]

195. Mexico didn't BEGIN as a blend of anything. It's always been Mexico

long before for the spanish invaded and conquered...

Mexica (Aztec)
Main article: Aztec
With the decline of the Toltec civilization came political fragmentation in the Valley of Mexico. Into this new game of political contenders to the Toltec throne stepped outsiders: the Mexica (or Aztecs as they were subsequently labeled by European anthropologists) . They were a proud desert people, one of seven groups who formerly called themselves Chichimecs, "descendants of dogs", but changed their name after years of migrating. Newcomers to the Valley of Mexico, they were seen as crude and unrefined in the ways of the prestigious Nahua civilizations, such as the fallen Toltec empire.


Aztec warriors as shown in the Florentine Codex.Latecomers to Mexico's central plateau, the Mexica never thought of themselves as heirs to the prestigious civilizations that had preceded them, much as Charlemagne did with respect to the fallen Roman Empire.

In 1428, the Mexica led a war of liberation against their rulers from the city of Azcapotzalco, which had subjugated most of the Valley of Mexico's peoples. The revolt was successful, and The Mexica, through cunning political maneuvers and ferocious fighting skills, managed to pull off a true "rags-to-riches" story: they became the rulers of central Mexico as the head of the Triple Alliance.

This Triple Alliance was composed of the city-states of Tenochtitlán, Texcoco, and Tlacopan. At their peak, 300,000 Mexica (Aztecs) presided over a wealthy tribute-empire comprising approximately 10 million people (out of 24 million within the region). This empire stretched from ocean to ocean, and extended into Central America.

By 1519, the Mexica capital, Tenochtitlán, was the largest city in the world with a population of around 350,000 (although some estimates range as high as 500,000). By comparison, the population of London in 1519 was 80,000 people. Tenochtitlán is the site of modern-day Mexico City.


Allies
In the formation of the Triple Alliance empire, the Mexica established several ally states. Among them were Cholula (the site of an early massacre by Spaniards), Texcoco (the site of a major library, subsequently burned by the Spanish), Tlacopan, and Matatlan. Also, many of the kingdoms conquered by the Mexica provided soldiers for further campaigns such as: Culhuacan, Xochimilco, Tepeacac, Amecameca, Coaixtlahuacan, Cuetlachtlan, and Ahuilizipan. Mexica fighting forces would become multi-ethnic, comprising many soldiers from conquered areas, led by a core of Mexica warriors and officers. This same strategy would later be employed by the Spaniards.


Legacy
The Mexica left a deep and durable stamp upon Mexican culture. Much of what is considered Mexican culture today derives from this Mexica civilization: place-names, words, food, art, dress, symbols, and even the name "Mexican". (See also Origin and history of the name "Mexica").

I love wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Mexica_.28Aztec.29

[jpgray]

197. That's not correct--there are 60+ indigenous groups recognized in Mexico

The Aztec or Mexica are just one of those.

[nadinbrzezinski]

249. The Mexica are no longer around anymore

but among those 60+ indigenous groups are Nahuatl speakers

[Igel]

264. Moreover, the Mexica never got near

any territory now part of the US. Nor to the southern border of the current Mexico.

They may have been expansionist and imperialist, but they simply didn't have the roads or environment suitable for large-scale empires even by European standards. They didn't even conquer all the tribes in their own neighborhood; the Tlaxcala would have fallen, but turned instead to the Spanish to save them.

What's good for short-term local politics isn't always good for the long-term survival of a people or state. Something that's far too often overlooked.

[SoCalifer]

316. you're incorrect

The Mexica originated from the areas of what is today Northern Mexico and South Western United States. They are part of the Chichimecs, and the group of them that migrated south into the valley of Mexico eventually became the Aztec.

This is corraborated by the linguistically related groups of people distributed throughout the U.S. Pacific Intermontane region, the U.S. southwest and northern Mexico, known as the UTO-AZTECAN-TANOAN GROUP, which includes such tribes as the Paiute, the Shoshoni, the Hopi, the Pima, the Yaqui, the Tepehuan, the Rara'muri (Tarahumara), the Kiowas and the Mayos.

[Igel]

262. Mexicans aren't indigenous to Calif., any more than

those of European or Asian stock are.

Spain claimed the area and conquered as necessary; then they set up missions to preach and subjugate the people there. For that, they used some people from what is now Mexico, and the process continued after independence. Yep, Mexico was an imperialist power, except that it was imperialist and colonialist wrt territories adjacent to it. In other words, they did what the Americans did, just earlier than Americans.

The indigenous folk are mostly gone, or reduced to being 1/16, 1/32, or 1/64 indigenous (at what point does the 'one drop' rule stop applying?); some bands of Indians survive, in much reduced numbers.

To say that people--even if they were pure-blooded indigneous folk--in Meso-America can claim the continent is rather like having Germans protest that they're the only ones to claim Spain, ignoring the Basques and the Spanish entirely. After all, it's the same continent, and Germans certainly conquered the area. Ok, ok, it was Goths that did the conquering, hardly Germani or Alemanni, but by current interpretations 'Germanic'. Same fallacy, why quibble?

[mike_c]

2. it's just a flag, for pete's sake-- I'll get upset when they...

...do something serious.

[jerry611]

31. A flag is a symbol of national ownership

All this does in inflame the debate that Mexicans are crossing the border trying to take over the country. It does nothing but provoke racism.

When people start seeing the Mexican flag flying from US government buildings...you are going to start seeing a very ugly side of human nature we havn't seen in decades.

[mike_c]

33. well, you won't see it from me....

I've got more important things to be concerned about than whose piece of cloth is hanging from a nearby pole.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

276. Does the American flag mean nothing to you?

Or is it just a "piece of cloth"? I abhor Republicans who abuse and misuse the flag. It represents our freedoms, our people, our lands, our liberties. It's a symbol of what we fight for every day.

Illegal Mexican nationals attempting to replace the American flag at a government building with the Mexican flag is a fucking disgrace. Mexicans are no more indigenous to California than are European, African, or Asian Americans.

If you want to get technical, Native American tribes who migrated from Asia millenia ago are probably the original inhabitants. That would make them the "indigenous" people of California. Maybe we should kick everyone else out and find the desdendants of these migrants from thousands of years ago and give them all of California.

[manic expression]

286. Perhaps

It looks as though that poster doesn't really care about flags, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[mike_c]

295. it doesn't mean nearly enough to inspire the kind of rage...

...I'm seeing all over this thread!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

301. Mexicans replacing an American flag with a Mexican flag

as if there's a war between Mexico and America is ridiculous. I feel for them and their plight, and think we should do everything we can to help them integrate into our society so they can have successful careers and a safe place for their families.

But, if they consider this some sort of war, then I do think some of the rage you see is justified. Many many liberals are fighting their asses off to help migrant workers, and these sorts of actions set back the debate 100 years and give conservatives real ammo in the fight. Do you think the average American is going to be impressed by this childish and violent stunt?

[Sterling]

317. I am offended.

I don't actually hate my own country like many here do. I view this kind of thing very seriously. Almost an act of war.

It does not give me any reason to have more sympathy for illegals thats for sure. By taking down my countries flag on our soil they disrespect something I care very much about. If they want to make enemies of most Americans this is the way to go about it. Viva La Raza indeed. Fuck that.

[roguevalley]

189. well, this can't be good for the reasonable voices on their side of

the argument. people are going to start bringing guns.

[datasuspect]

228. " . . . Mexicans are crossing the border trying to take over the country."

am i on DU right now??????

i had to check the URL to make sure.

that's it, you've hit the nail on the head.

countless immigrants from mexico are coming here to SPECIFICALLY TAKE OVER THE UNITED STATES.

can i have some of what you are smoking?

i too need a break from reality.

[WinkyDink]

218. Well, how about you try to raise the U.S. flag on a MEXICAN Post

Office, and see the reaction you get?

And no snarky remarks going back a couple centuries.

[mike_c]

226. not me-- I don't get too excited about that sort of thing....

eom

[unlawflcombatnt]

304. You'd be arrested,

If you tried to raise the American flag at a Mexican post office. In fact, you'd be arrested in just about any other country on the planet for raising an American flag at their post offices.

[Ken Burch]

3. Could these be provocateurs?

Sounds like an old-style FBI "black ops" kind of thing. I don't think we can assume these were actual immigrant activists.

[Cleita]

8. True because in California we have Mexican Americans

who have been here for generations and who haven't had their culture washed out of them like other ethnicities. I would like more information before I draw conclusions.

[musette_sf]

9. agreed n/t

[silverojo]

24. Yes, you can

Check out their signs...they're the same artwork on the immigrant activists' web sites. Yet there's no way you could enlarge said artwork enough to make a sign out of it, without it being pixelized beyond words--these are the original owners of that artwork. The same people who were behind the May 1 marches...look at pics of both events, and you'll find the same signs at both.

As for those who think it's no big deal what they did to the flag on federal property...please don't give the Republicans LEGITIMATE reason to think Democrats are un-American. Most of us love our country and the flag that represents it. Burning a flag to make a political statement is one thing, stealing a flag from federal property and replacing it with a foreign one is quite another. It's a federal crime, in case you're unaware.

Put it this way...how would you have liked it, back in 2004, if someone had stolen your Kerry/Edwards sign from your front yard, and replaced it with a Bush/Cheney one? Now add "breaking a federal law" to that, and you might grasp the seriousness of this.

[Ken Burch]

143. It seems to me that one could EASILY replicate the artwork

by downloading it to a disk and taking it to a sign store with digital capacity. Anybody with ten minutes access to a PC could do it.

It could also have been the work of somebody who got kicked out of the movement and decided to get payback by doing something to discredit it.

I just think we should be very careful in how we respond to this. Flying off in a rage at the entire immigrant rights movement probably wouldn't do us any good. We'd needlessly offend millions of Hispanic voters and there's no way our response would ever be zealous and vicious enough to satisfy all the right-wing anti-immigration types. Democrats never gain by denouncing minority activists in any case.

The timing of this event seems, well, just a teensy weensy bit CONVENIENT to me.

[Seabiscuit]

67. Yep. A Repuke-staged event. Without a doubt.

They really must want the 50th District bad!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

224. Maybe the ones who threw things at the police.

Other than that, a nice, nonviolent protest.

[EFerrari]

232. I've never known an undocumented person who would do such a thing.

Or, their legal family members, for that matter.

This wasn't real.

[Horse with no Name]

257. Me neither.

As I said in another post...the Anti-Mexican sentiment needs to be stirred so that Bush can use that to justify sending troops down to suppress the citizenry of Mexico who are protesting the vote.

[Ken Burch]

297. Well yeah, obviously I meant them and the flagpole guy.

Black ops.

In fact, it's equivalent to the people who showed up out of nowhere at '60s antiwar rallies and started calling cops "pigs" and screaming obscenities. If any returning Vietnam vet actually DID get spat upon, it was mostly likely the same sort as well.

These guys could have been busted as "coyotes" and offered more lenient sentences or no sentences at all if they "Did Uncle Sam a favor".

It was just too convenient.

[raccoon]

239. Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

This sounds EXACTLY like an FBI "black ops" thing.

[Sterling]

318. You guys are pathetic.

These were Mexicans. Not CIA people. Jesus people here are trying so hard to defend this shit you guys are becoming nut bags in the process.

[Beelzebud]

4. Thats way over the line...

They aren't doing their cause much good by behaving this way...

[Deja Q]

7. They're just showing their love of their home country.

Much like some of the things I see at a gay pride parade, what those folks did might have made themselves feel good, but it's not convincing the people they're trying to convince that they're being constructive in their efforts...

[Beelzebud]

11. I agree with everything you said there.

I'm sure it did feel good for them, but thats the sort of image that plays right into the racists hands...

[roguevalley]

190. well, given that, if the Russians raised a Russian flag over the

borough building here because they once owned Alaska -and some of the Politburo crazies talked about getting Alaska back- then I know I would be offended. IT doesn't help your cause to provoke the crazies.

[RebelOne]

211. Well, they can just go back to their home country. n/t

[Egnever]

215. If they love the home country so much

Why not go back?

Sorry but this kind of crap really does not make me feel sympathetic to their cause. If they want to come to america come be american. Dont come here to try to turn it into the place you fled from.

Where is all this passion they seem to have here when it comes to actually reforming the place they supposedly love so much?

[Bake]

320. If they love their home country that much

Then why the fuck don't they go BACK there? "They're just showing their love for their home country." Horse shit. They took down the flag of this nation, ran up Mexico's flag as a protest, as a gesture of defiance, whatever. But it WASN'T just showing their love ...

There are legal means of immigrating to this country. Canada does't just open its borders to anyone who feels like dropping in. Illegal immigration is a problem in this country, thanks to the big business types who want cheap labor with no benefits. Whatever the solution is, it is NOT just opening the borders to one and all.

And someone who takes down the flag of the United States over a government building isn't going to be high on the list of people I'd let in.

Bake

[Selatius]

6. Nationalism is an ill afflicting the working classes of the world, imho

No matter where you come from or what your background is, the simple fact is to a greedy businessman, you are nothing more than a wage slave.

[Deja Q]

And when governments support wage-slavers,

it kinda makes any loyalty to one's government a moot point.

I don't think what's about to happen can be called "Feudalism"...

[MoseyWalker]

14. I would completely agree if this was the world cup, but it isn't

it is a group who apparently put a Mexican flag on the pole of a US post office.

It's a statement, and regardless what side of that statement one falls down on, it's a serious statement.

The borders are blurred. If others want to give up the borders of the US, then that's the way it is. I don't agree, but I see part of their points.

People in the US are not becoming wage slaves because of nationalism, but rather for the opposite reason. Corporatism encourages this type of action, but it does nothing to help those who need the help. It hurts their cause.

The lack of borders creates wage slaves, and that is one reason why Chavez is Argentina, Cuba, and other countries try to protect their nationalism.

A complicated mess, ain't it?

[kurth]

10. "For Hispanics, everything; for non-Hispanics, nothing"

"For the race, everything; for those outside the race, nothing." - La Raza's motto.

[Cleita]

13. Could you post that in Spanish so we can know that is what they

really say? I can't imagine any gringo hating group having that motto in English.

[kurth]

15. "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

[Cleita]

20. Okay, proper translation.

Everything for our people! Nothing for those against our people!

On edit: I forgot to add that the word "hispanic" is an English word that has no translation to Spanish.

[slaveplanet]

110. not literally

gente = people

raza = race

pretty straightforward, If they meant people don't you suppose they'd use word people(Gente)?

Don't words mean certain things? If they are all interchangeable, why do we need dictionaries?

And since they're clearly using the race card, How is this different from a group of racists, who refuse to believe they've lost a war, hoisting a KKK banner? or more subtly a banner that shows identity with an alternate state, like say a confederate flag?

[EFerrari]

115. In Spanish, raza and gente are interchangeable, not like in English.

And, bet me this is staged. Bet me anything.

[Art_from_Ark]

166. Not exactly interchangeable

If you say "El es buena gente" ("He is a good guy") it has nothing to do with race. But "mi gente" can be used in the same sense as "mi raza", much the same way that some English speakers will say "my people" to mean "my race".

[Cleita]

179. You have zeroed in on why slogans cannot be translated that

well from one language to another. To pick words from a dictionary doesn't always capture the meaning. I always found that translating jokes was the most difficult because they really capture the meaning of the words in that context.

[Cleita]

116. Oh f**k.

Gente means the population. Raza to the American born, but not so accepted Chicanos, means "the people" to them because the majority of them are Native American. Get hip will you?

If you are going to use their slogan at least try to translate it fairly.

[slaveplanet]

126. Is there some need

for potty mouth.

look up any spanish-english dictionary, or vice versa

those are the literal(look up that word while your at it).

You'll find those are the literal translations, no matter how much one wants to pretty things up.

[EFerrari]

128. Literal doesn't translate to usage. n/t

[slaveplanet]

152. usage

yes usage does matter?

When the slogan is used by people to express racial pride and empowerment = OK(unless its by the KKK)

When it is used as a slogan in addition to displays of alternate statehood on goverment structures for purposes of intimidation = not OK (unless it's brown people doing it)

yes the usage does matter, even if the slogan isn't being hijacked for that second usage.

[EFerrari]

176. Whoa! All I meant was, dictionary defs are not equal to the vernacular.

:scared:

[Cleita]

132. Since I seem to know English better than you do, the "F"

word appears in "Canterbury Tales", an effort by the author, Chaucer, to write in the common vernacular of the Anglo-Saxons who were subdued by the Norman French. This is why the other "F" word, fornicate is acceptable because it's what the upper classes called it and fuck is the vulgar word of the underclasses. If you want to criticize my English, please learn to speak it.

[EFerrari]

145. It's a bad day when we have to invoke the Wyf of Bathe. lol

[Cleita]

147. Yes it is. LOL n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

206. Actually, 'fuck' doesn't appear anywhere in Chaucer.

'Arse' ('ers'), 'cunt' ('queint'), 'fart', 'shit', 'piss', yes; but no 'fuck'--(the first known instance in English is in a name, 'John le Fucker', recorded in 1278; the word isn't known again in written English until the early 16th century, according to the OED, at least).

[EFerrari]

231. I believe you are right. n/t

[Cleita]

247. Not all versions include it and it's edited out.

It's in the tale of the Wyf of Bathe as others have mentioned here.

[Spider Jerusalem]

250. Actually, it isn't.

Sorry, but you're mistaken.

[Cleita]

252. See my post #251.

I guess I'm going to have to say Oh swyve from now on not to have a so-called potty mouth.

[Cleita]

248. Not all versions include it and it's edited out.

It's in the tale of the Wyf of Bathe as others have mentioned here.

[Cleita]

251. Here is the passage:

Thus swyved (f*cked) was the carpenter’s wyf...
Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales, The Cooks Tale. The word used "swyved" and "fuck" were interchangeable in Middle English.

Also, the word seems to have been similar to the Dutch word fokken that means to breed

[Spider Jerusalem]

253. Swive means fuck, but it *isn'*t fuck.

Just because it has the same meaning doesn't make it the same word; and any edition that uses 'fuck' instead of 'swive' (or 'swyve') is one which substitutes more modern English for the middle English in which Chaucer wrote. Every dictionary of etymology I've seen (including the OED) doesn't mention use of 'fuck' by Chaucer, and surely so notable an early use would have been recorded.

[Cleita]

254. I think swyve has been used in place of f*ck.

I copied the passage including the parenthesied F word exactly as it was written on the source I copied. One of my teachers in college had a version with the F word in it, which she said was the Anglo-Saxon word for fornicate and considered vulgar. Since that was fifty years ago I really can't go to that source so you will have to either believe me or think that I am a liar. So be it. I have found many old works to have many versions. It does happen in editing.

[Spider Jerusalem]

259. I think I'll believe the editors of the OED...

because I think they probably would have noticed had 'fuck' been in the original (which they didn't).

[EFerrari]

131. Cleita -- has the revolution started?

:hi:

:rofl:

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

164. I don't think that's an accurate translation

The spanish is: "Por la raza, todo; fuera de la raza, nada." It translates more closely as: "by the race, everything; without the race, nothing," and is adapted from the slogan of the cuban revolution: "Por la revolucion, todo; fuera de la revolucion, nada."

"La Raza" actually means roughly the same as "the people" (la gente), though it can imply the mixed/mestizo nature of most of the people in latin america.

[Igel]

266. In context it's no more or less exclusive

than das Volk was.

Nice, usual word, but in context it says that the purpose of the group is strictly race-based, dedicated to helping one race and only one race. "Race" being not quite the right word here, but close enough.

If I were a Ukrainian and heard a Russian living in the Ukraine saying the equivalent thing, I'd be very upset. Populist-style Nationalism tends to regaining empires these days. Mexico had an empire. A dinky one, but you glorify what you can; it increases the sense of victimization and oppression, and nationalists and populists get sleek and fat on such a diet.

[fishwax]

279. in context, I think it's more like

one for all and all for one. United we stand, divided we fall. Rather than implying that "the purpose of the group is strictly race-baed, dedicated to helping one race and only one race," I think it actually is making the point that the goals of the group require unity.

[Igel]

288. Numerous groups wouldn't be able to define themselves

and their way of operating so blatantly, at least not without attracting opprobrium.

The opprobrium would be merited. Having met many MEChistas, and having had to deal with them, I think it's merited in their case, too.

[K8-EEE]

170. I Don't See That "Motto" On Their Website But Rather...

Pix of Arnie, Hillary, and Karl ROVE....come on. La Raza is not that radical of a group, it's civil rights for hispanics, por favor!! Look on their site and show me the "nothing for non-hispanics" stuff. If you google it you just come up with old freeper posts!! That's probably where it came from, IMO...or maybe ONE speaker out of a thousand said something like that and they are trying to paint all latino activism with that brush.

I searched "Motto" on their site and came up empty.

http://www.nclr.org/

As for the pix here, I want to find out more about that community and what is really going on here and who these people are and who they represent.

I live in Los Angeles and we had THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DOWNTOWN, although it pissed me off to no end because I got stuck in the traffic, I saw NO signs or attitudes like that -- it was awash in American flags.

[raccoon]

240. Wow, isn't that the motto of the uber-rich elites in the US? nt

[Cleita]

16. So what do you think of the confederate flag flown rather

boldly in many towns in this country?

[Llewlladdwr]

34. Nice.

Extremely subtle use of the racism card there.

I mean, obviously anyone who opposes the raising of a Mexican flag over a US Government building simply must be an unreconstructed Confederate.

[Cleita]

40. The Confederate flag stands for the south, who tried

to secede from the USA. They lost. The Mexican flag maybe stands for the USA usurping lands in the southwest that once belonged to Mexico. They lost. So your objection to the Mexican flag should be as flagrant as your objection to the confederate flag, but it isn't? Could you explain?

[Llewlladdwr]

49. My objection...

is to your implication that anyone who opposes raising a Mexican flag over a US Government facility is a rebel flag wavin' racist. No one on this thread mentioned the Confederacy until you brought it up. Perhaps you could expand a little bit on your Mexico/Confederacy analogy? 'Cause the only thing I came away with was that Mexicans and Confederates are both losers.

[Cleita]

56. I'm not against your concern. I am questioning the post and what really

really happened. The confederate flag,however, is another issue. It seems widely accepted in many white pride organizations in place of the USAAmerican flag, which those folks disdain. I think we really need to focus on what both these symbols mean to people on either side before flying off half cocked.

[Llewlladdwr]

69. What really, really happened....

was that the flag of a foreign nation was raised over a US Government facility. To me, and apparently several others, that's a step too far. I'd feel exactly the same about the Rebel flag or any other national flag.

I honestly don't see what this has to do with the Confederate battle flag. I've lived in the South for a great deal of my life and while I've seen the Southern Cross flown over State buildings I've never known it to flown over one belonging to the Federal Government.

I think we can assume the Mexican flag has a great deal of meaning to those who took this particular action. I don't think the choice to fly that flag over a US Government building was taken lightly, and I think it was intended to make a strong statement. If that statement wasn't an assertion of Mexican sovereignty over US territory then what was it?

[Cleita]

74. Wow, you must hate all those flags at the United Nations in

NYC flying there. What about all the embassies and consulates in this country? Will they never be allowed to fly flags in this country?

[Llewlladdwr]

79. I was unaware...

that the UN building is a US Government facility. Or that the embassies of foreign nations belonged to the US Government. I thought an embassy belonged to the Nation it represents, not the host country.

[Cleita]

94. You are right. However, you are also wrong because

it's within the continental boundaries of the USA and if we decide to run them out we can. Go back to your lawbooks.

[Llewlladdwr]

104. The UN or an Embassy?

Either way neither facility belongs to the US Government. And over-running an embassy would be an act of war.

Look, if you want to fly a Mexican flag over your house or business then more power to you. But raising the flag of a foreign nation over a US Government facility is a very powerful and not at all friendly statement.

[Cleita]

111. This should never have been done at a Post Office

or any other USA facility, I agree. As a hispanic myself and a very legal one since I was born, I know that most immigrants would not do this, whether legal or illegal. So who did? Have they caught the suspects yet?

[silverojo]

80. The UN is a very different matter

<<Wow, you must hate all those flags at the United Nations in
NYC flying there. What about all the embassies and consulates in this country? Will they never be allowed to fly flags in this country?>>

They're allowed to fly flags in the appropriate places and in the appropriate manner. And under NO circumstances is an American flag TAKEN DOWN to be replaced by a foreign flag.

[Cleita]

97. This story so stinks that I want the truth. n/t

[struggle4progress]

136. Few sources of info. Whoever ran Mexico's flag up the pole,

may have done it after the post office had lowered the American flag at closing time. Most of the "info" is on wingnut sites and is echoed by some of the accusations in this thread: "illegals did it" and so on.

Here's a sympathetic account with pictures: maybe some ANSWER thumbing its nose at SOS. http://www.theexperiment.org/articles.php?news_id=2188

The photos are surprisingly unlike some of the pictures posted in this thread

[Cleita]

144. Fantastic! Thanks for posting the other side of the story.

I always knew that Maywood was one of the hispanic neighborhoods of Los Angeles. Great to know that the Minutemen assholes were the ones who instigated this whole thing.

[FARAFIELD]

109. FYI

The post office had alread closed and there was no flag flying at the time. God be accurate for crying out loud.!!!!

[Cleita]

121. Thank you!

:hi:

[Ms. Clio]

210. no, no, don't be silly

the purpose of this bullshit thread is to distort, deceive, and inflame.

[WinkyDink]

219. Not the same, and you know it. Same for embassies.

Why defend ILLEGAL actions? Sounds like what a Republican would like to see Democrats do.

[jerry611]

38. Different issue

The Confederacy was made up entirely by Americans, it was just a different government.

Mexico is an entirely different nation which in my opinion is not a friend of America.

[Cleita]

42. In your mind I guess Native Americans don't matter, the ones

who were in the southwest long before the Europeans, who were conquered by the Spaniards, and who rebelled against their Spanish overlords to found the country of Mexico. Then the USA came along and annexed what they wanted of Mexican territory here. I don't see the difference.

[Ken Burch]

154. Given how Mexicans have historically been treated by "El Norte"

Is there any reason they should be friends of our government?
(Also, you will inadvertently offend many if not most residents of the Western Hemisphere if you use "America" to refer to the United States. To Mexicans, Central Americans, and South Americans, "America" refers to the entire landmass from the North Pole to Tierra Del Fuego. Che used the phrase "Nuestra America"(Our America)to refer to all of these lands.)

[GreenArrow]

278. so, what is the name of this country again?

That's right, the United States of America. Should the people of this country not call themselves Americans simply because other people on the American continents don't like it?

I have never understood the offense taken at this.

[Ken Burch]

284. Then you need to study the history of this hemisphere.

And it really isn't worth being possessive of the "A-word" when there are far larger issues to think about.

Leave nationalistic arrogance to the GOP.

[GreenArrow]

290. I'm well aware of our history of dealings

with our neighbors in this hemisphere, and I'm aware that they have many good reasons for animosity towards us, but the name of our country is not one of them. Nationalistic arrogance has nothing to do with it; the name of our country is the United States of America, and it has been since 1776. We are known as Americans throughout the rest of the world. It's very easy to make a distinction between continent and country. It might be worth noting as well, that even though both share the same "last name", that South America is distinct from North America, each being a different continent.

What follows is a list of the various countries that comprise the American Continents and their official names.

República Argentina
República de Chile
República Oriental del Uruguay
Federative Republic of Brazil
República de Colombia
República Bolivariana de Venezuela
República del Perú
Republiek Suriname
Republic of Guyana
República del Paraguay
República del Ecuador
República de Bolivia
Estados Unidos Méxicanos
Belize
República de Costa Rica
República de El Salvador
República de Guatemala
República de Honduras
República de Nicaragua
República de Panamá
United States of America
Canada

[Ken Burch]

296. Why isn't it enough to call ourselves "The United States"?

Why are you so possessive of one word?

And the event that started this thread didn't even involve the USE of that word.

You sound like such a gringo when you get uptight over nothing like that.

[GreenArrow]

299. "Why are you so possessive of one word? "

I'm not quite sure how I'm being possessive since I've clearly argued that the word American has distinct meanings; i.e. it specifically refers to a citizen of the USA, and more broadly, to an inhabitant of one of the American continents. (Even then, it would be more precise to refer to oneself as South American or North American) It seems to me that it ought to be easy to make that distinction, and to allow for more than one usage. So, I guess that makes me a gringo, or a yanqui even...

[Ken Burch]

305. Then why are you making such a big deal about insisting

on OUR country being called "the United States of America"?

I guess I don't understand precisely what you're being a stickler about here.

[Sterling]

319. Because that is what it is called?

I really don't see the issue here. Maybe you should petition congress for a name change if it means so much to you? As it stands now the name is The US of A. I don't see any reason to argue against this fact. Unless you like looking like an idiot?

[Beelzebud]

41. I think it's pathetic. The flag of treason should never be flown.

Although, that doesn't give these people a free pass to fly thier flag over a U.S. post office...

[Cleita]

46. No it doesn't if that is in fact what happened.

I find the details very sketchy here at first about what happened.

[petronius]

168. If those 'white pride' types raised their flag over a gov't building,

I personally would consider it just as wrong as this current example. If someone wants to fly a confederate flag over their own home, or stick it on a tee shirt of bumper sticker, I have no objection - and the same goes for the Mexican flag.

However, raising any flag other than the U.S. over a federal building is unacceptable, and is an action that shouldn't be supported (IMO). With that said, it is also an action that, while symbolically potent, strikes me as pretty minor - for example, anything that caused actual damage to the building would seem worse to me...

[RB TexLa]

17. talk about a non-issue

yawn

[MoseyWalker]

22. seems to be an issue for quite a few people

in one way or another, the US has to deal with hispanic immigration.

I would just like to say that I have lived with and love a hispanic person, and have done so for the past 9 years. I'm not up for racist/nonracist arguments. A little intelligent discussion would be nice.

[RB TexLa]

26. talking about a flag being on a pole somewhere is hardly

a useful discussion.

[MoseyWalker]

37. it is if one looks at the ideas behind it. n/t

[cboy4]

19. Are you sure they took down the US flag or was it an empty flag pole?

It is my understanding that it was after post office hours and the US flag had been taken down.

That makes a big difference if you ask me.

[silverojo]

32. Yes, they took down the US flag. Here's a "before" photo

<<It is my understanding that it was after post office hours and the US flag had been taken down.>>

Does this answer your question? The American flag is quite visible in this pic, and the YouTube video shows the sequence of events, too.

BEFORE:


AFTER:


Remember the good old days, when immigrants who came here (LEGALLY) loved and respected their new homeland?

[cboy4]

39. Well there you have it. Yea, not a good thing, but I'm not going to

crucify a whole group of people for the actions of some.

I know a number of great Mexican friends who are opposed to this kind of behavior.

[earth mom]

23. Let's see some who are pro-illegal immigration defend this!

But they won't because this is so wrong it ain't funny! :grr:

[Cleita]

30. Let's settle something, which has been repeated over and over

here at DU, but it keeps coming up.

NOBODY IS PRO-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!!

This is the same argument used for being pro-killing babies if you are pro-choice.

Drop the rhetoric please and maybe someone might take you seriously.

[Llewlladdwr]

43. Cleita, you're incorrect.

I've read more than one post here at DU saying that borders are wrong and any restiction on immigration shoould be lifted. I've read plenty of posts making the argument that illegals are just trying for a better life and should be welcomed and supported.

To say that not a single individual on this board supports illegal immigration is just not a provable assertion.

[Cleita]

47. My dear! It's words.

No one is in favor of illegal anything. What we want to do is rationally go over the laws and redraw exactly what legal and illegal really is in regard to workers. The Pew Center studies has dropped the word for unauthorized workers because they admit that pinning illegal on people is ludicrous.

I mean prostitutes are illegal, aren't they? Where do you want to ship them? This is a buzz word to inflame people from looking at the real problem.

[Llewlladdwr]

55. "No one is in favor of illegal anything"?

I think you're playing semantics. A good case could be made that lots of folks support all kinds of illegal anythings. I myself support several different activities that are currently against the law. I suppose you could argue that what I really support is the de-criminalization of these activities but if I engage in them in the meantime wouldn't it be more honest to just admit that I'm all for certain illegal anythings?

[Cleita]

70. Yes, I am playing semantics because I am fed up with the

language being co-opted by a bunch of American Nazis. It's time to take back the language and our country. If you agree that we should be waging a war against terror then you have been sucked into the new Bush dictionary and anything I have to say about their propaganda techniques will be lost on you.

No I am not changing the subject. You just did and decided to make the subject semantics. I'm ready to go at it with you.

[Llewlladdwr]

76. Okay.

Though I'm not exactly sure how being opposed to being killed by Islamic fundamentalists using terrorist tactics makes me a Bush stooge. But then I don't fully understand how objecting to the raising of a foreign nation's flag over a US Government facility makes me a racist either.

[Cleita]

78. Did you just call yourself a racist?

Because I didn't.

[Llewlladdwr]

84. But you did.

You earlier implied that those who oppose the raising of a Mexican flag over a US Government facility would support the same action if it were a Confederate battle flag instead.

[Cleita]

92. No I didn't.

eom

[Llewlladdwr]

105. Okay.

Semantics again.

[mike_c]

36. what's to defend?-- it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned....

I don't get too excited about flags.

[jerry611]

44. Maybe 15 million Mexicans flooding our border?

-Maybe over 200 incursions by the Mexican government into US territory shooting live rounds at our border patrol?
-Maybe the drug crime, gangs, and human trafficking occuring every single day on the border?

Those arn't important issues?

[EFerrari]

149. The Mexians are coming!

Boo!

:rofl:

[Ken Burch]

163. It isn't possible to seal the border.

The answer is to organize people on both sides for workers's rights and economic and social justice for all.
"Stop immigration" can NEVER be a progressive slogan.

As to the issues you mention above, they are mainly driven by criminality and greed, not by the influx of "illegals".

[struggle4progress]

192. The Mexican government is shooting at our Federal officials?

I bet that ole Mexico is trying to buy yellowcake in Niger, too ...

[High Plains]

194. Are you sure you're on the right board?

That hysterical rhetoric is right out of Freeperville.

[nadinbrzezinski]

207. Jerry I worked that border

and you know what? incursions occur on BOTH sides regularly. You know why? Outside of urban areas, the border is so poorly marked that many a times people just stray across... yep corrected border patrol agents who were a tad south a couple times as a Medic... and I was invited across to render medical aide a couple times. Usually all them incursions are ignored by BOTH sides, because nobody wants to kill them damn trees.

The problem is that every election year, like clock work, you see these stories, why? FEAR... FEAR... FEAR... and by the by... similar stories are sometimes used by Mexican Politicos on the other side of the border. Usually the bad guys are Border Patrol and from time to time (that is when troops are on the border) US Troops. See a pattern? I do... it is the cynical use of fear by politicians, regardless of language.

As to the flag, extremely bad PR... but it will be effective ONLY if you pay attention to it. By the way, while your blood boils over that one... which I am sure made it the MSM, what else did the crime family do to subvert your rights and the Constitution? Fear, mission accomplished...

[martymar64]

277. It stinks of COINTELPRO

What they call a false flag operation. Do something to blame on someone else.

[zonkers]

287. No kidding. So what. All this dopey moral bluster and indignation is

dopey. There are bigger things to worry about.

[blm]

25. Well, people thought leftists were burning flags in 1988 in cities that

just happened to be on GHWBush's campaign schedule. The burnings would ussually be a few days or a week before he got there.

I don't believe in coincidence theories when a Bush is in office and there is an election coming up.

[Generator]

27. Pat Buchanan is your man

Saw him frothing on CNN tonight. Really, you should check the dude out. I've lost respect for the American flag myself. I don't think it stands for much but lies anymore. Not the Mexico is any better. But anyhoo-it's interesting no? How different in views you can get...I don't have any outrage- not a drop anymore about that precious American flag. It's just a damn piece of fabric. It doesn't stand for anything anymore. Certainly not for talking care of it's citizens. Not for protecting them. Not for telling the truth to them. It seems we are just cannon fodder for the rich. Mexican flags? The least of our problems seems to me.

[TankLV]

45. I saw his "performance" too - I was stunned. The guy is completely nuts.

But this (flag) display is disgusting.

I'd like to see how those who approve of this or think it is nothing would react if some Americans did the same thing in Mexico.

Somehow, I think they would be all tuckered out for all their sudden outrage...

This stinks to high heaven.

But I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some right-wing racist AMERICAN freaks to be behind this...

Another election cycle comming. Check.

Another "outrage" directed at some group for distraction. Check.

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. If they did this in Mexico

it would be the Mexicans problem, not mine... and quite frankly I suspect they would over react just like you are overreacting.

You want to worry about something that actually matters... how bout them diebold machines? May I introduce you to the US Patriot Act? How about the NSA spying on you? Perchance that is a tad more important than something that seems staged and ready made for the election season.

By the way, raza means people in the vernacular as many have told you... but hey... get annoyed, get angry, don't pay attention to the things that truly matter, mission accomplished

[Ken Burch]

307. It'd be sort of pointless

To raise a Mexican flag over a Mexican post office. They'd probably already be flying one, wouldn't they?

[silverojo]

75. You need to learn what the pro-illegal movement is really about

Here's what's being written by those who head up these marches. Mexica-movement.org (the web site plugged on the largest signs) has this to say:

"The non-European world does not owe Europeans a living
from our lands, our continents, or our labor. The world is not obligated to serve European interests in the way that you are not obligated to keep a cancer in your body or in the way that you do not allow parasites to feed off of your body. A cancer must be removed and parasites must also be removed,
for the sake of your life as a healthy human being."

If you're of European descent, you're a "cancer" to these people. That's a pretty racist comment.

Another page from their site:
http://www.mexica-movement.org/BURBANK1-21-06.htm

Count how many times the word "racist" is used. A picture of an older woman carrying an American flag, standing away from the crowds, is captioned, "THE HATEFULL ANGRY & RACIST GRANDMOTHER. She remembers the 'good ole days' when segregation was the law of the land and racism was something white people could be proud of." I guess they're mind-readers now. It'd be laughable if these people weren't serious.

They also vilify their fellow Hispanics who don't parrot their party line, calling them "vendidos". The photo of one Chicana holding a sign stating that she's a "proud Chicana Hispanic Minuteman" is captioned: "Here's that stupid self-hater again with her blue sign." A veteran who is Hispanic is labeled a "vendido", and the caption reads, "Here you see him more animated in his hate for our people." He's ONE of their people, how can he hate them?

A photo of a sign that says HOME DEPOT BRINGS BACK THE SLAVE LABOR TRADE is captioned: "Read the stupid and hypocritical sign on the left. As if they care that our people are doing slave labor. It's all about racism with them. They would put our people in concentration camps if they could get away with it."

Maybe they figure we think like they do. Exhibit A....

Another pro-illegals site (and yes, they're PRO-ILLEGAL because they want illegals to be able to break the law and stay!) reveals the anti-Semitism prevalent in this movement. The entire column can be found here:
http://www.aztlan.net/aztlan_nationalism.htm

And here are some highlights. "(Hitler) knew that in the souls of those sons and daughters a new, powerful and jew free society would come forth....Jewry, a religion and race of pure evil....(today's youth) crave the street drugs like Ecstasy and GHB which are manufactured in Israel and sold to our children by rabbis!....Nazi Germany is called a racist state which planned to exterminate all non-Aryans beginning with the jews. This, like most jewish slander, is in fact mere projection of the jewish psyche onto their victims....We must be careful not to accept as fact the lies which are published and broadcast about Nazi Germany....let us recognize that our Ultimate Enemy is the jew...the jew regards us only as prey. Let the hunted become Hunters!"

No, this isn't quoted from a KKK or white supremacists website. This is from organizations encouraging illegal immigration because it furthers their goal of "taking back" the American Southwest (a/k/a "Aztlan"). Anti-Semitism, as well as anti-white racism, is rampant among their numbers. THEY are the racists, not the people trying to stop them. This country is a RAINBOW, not the so-called "bronze" nation that these people are striving for.

Go to Google and research "MEChA", "La Raza", and "Aztlan". Don't read what people are writing about them--read what they, themselves, have to say. And know that people with this mindset are in our schools and universities, recruiting young Hispanics to perpetuate their culture of hate.

Finally, consider this: George Bush may talk about "border security", but he wants to let illegals come here and work legally, which will make it easier for them to stay illegally after they're supposed to have gone back home. When George Bush wants something, it's bad for the country. Period.

[struggle4progress]

They're holed up in the post office! Shooting at pedestrians!

A division is marching up from Mexico to support them! This sleepy little post office is another Alamo!

Oh .. wait a moment .. I see .. somebody took down a US flag briefly and flew a Mexican flag on the pole .. a while ago ..

Uh, do you know exactly who did this? Do you have their names, for example?

[FARAFIELD]

93. BFD

Here is a quote from Kayne West "george Bush doesnt care about black people" and one from me "right wingers dont care about anyone that isnt white" wish I could have been there to help them run that flag up

[Berserker]

29. What a crock of shit

taking down the American flag and putting their's up? What the hell is this? I am so pissed off and I can't believe that some people sympathize with this shit. If I were there I would either have been beaten to death or in jail. Fuckers.

[Don Claybrook]

48. but why?

Really, I'm curious why you're so worked up over this. Fine whoever did it, press charges, whatever. But what is it about the partciular design on the flag that gets you (and many others) so worked up that you'd contemplate (hyptothetically) violence? Who was hurt by this? Who was screwed over? Who is the victim of this?

Our nation has become a killing and grief-making machine. I don't see why the flag over a post office means much of anything. Help me out.

[Berserker]

50. What does

patriotism mean to you? Does it mean that you love your country and your flag and what it stands for? I still do even living with the bullshit we live in now. I still love my country and my flag and when anyone tears down my flag in my country and puts another country's flag up thats going way to far and I will fight for that. Why wouldn't you? Does that help you out?

[Don Claybrook]

82. let's see

No, it doesn't help because you didn't really answer the question. You tried, but I'm still missing part of the answer. You say it's going way to (sic) far to do this flag switch, and that this is something you're willing to fight for.

I'm missing the "why" in why you're ready to fight over this. Mexican nationals haven't made a claim on California or even on one post office in CA, and if they had, they would have gotten nowhere.

So what I'm asking, and I'll ask you directly since you were good enough to reply, where does the shifting of gears take place that permits you to contemplate violence at the display of a relatively neutural symbol?

Now I'll answer your questions. I have a difficult time anymore trying to distinguish the finer points between patriotism and jingoism. That, and I really don't know what patriotism buys you. It seems like one of those things that very easily lends itself to sliding into jingoism (and maybe that's because it's entirely possible that patriotism is nothing more than a good marketing term to describe jingoism).

I love much about my country, and nothing about my government. I feel shame for what my country has done. And I can't imagine that the love I feel for my country would stop at the Canadian or Mexican border--natural beauty and wonderful people can be found everywhere, I hope.

I have no particular love for the flag. I have a definite distaste for what this flag currently stands for.

[jerry611]

51. Do this in any other country on this planet...

A civilized country will put you in prison...

Most 3rd world countries would execute you...

[struggle4progress]

60. Gotta link to support yer excitin claims?

[Don Claybrook]

63. What an inane response

Who gives a shit what they would do to me in Lower Grokistan? I'm in the US, and that is germane to this conversation. I don't really wish to expand the discussion to argue with you the finer points of our vicious government versus their vicious governments.

So I take it that your answer to my question is, flag replacement crimes only matter to you because "non civilized" countries would execute you for doing such a thing? ok then. It is at least instructive to know how your opinion becomes informed.

thanks.

[K8-EEE]

185. No, "Civilized" Countries Do NOT Execute People For Symbolism.

Excuse me...I would never burn the flag but I don't want to live in any hellhole dictatorship where it is illegal to do so...

[High Plains]

196. Dude, quit taking those mushrooms!

[Bake]

321. How about this: ship their asses home.

If these clowns are in the country illegally, enforce the law and ship them the fuck home. They have no respect for our laws or our flag. Ship their asses home.

And I'm someone who would defend to the hilt the right to burn the US flag, as odious as I find that to be, because it is undeniably protected speech under the Constitution.

Bake

[Pastiche423]

68. It must be so nice

to have so little bad things happen in your life, that you would have been beaten to death or in jail over a stupid issue like this.

I HATE NATIONALISM!

[Berserker]

165. I hate anti-american people

that think this is a stupid issue. And what the hell do you know about my life or what has happened in it? Nice personal attack. Is that all you got?

[mike_c]

227. I'd be proud to join the list of people you hate....

This sort of nationalistic chest-thumping is childish. Mexican-Americans raised a flag. Big deal. I didn't get too excited about the flag that was there originally and I don't find the one they replaced it with particularly exciting either. So hate me. :shrug:

[Pastiche423]

274. Methinks you have

Anti-American people confused w/Nationalistic people. VERY big difference.

How the hell do I know about your life? Why, from the words you write.

[Skip Intro]

35. too far

I'm sorry, no...I'm not sorry.

This is too far.

They don't get to have CA. Or any other US state.

This is a nation built on immigration, and I'm happy to live by the words on the Staue of Liberty (unlike any freeper I've ever met) but this is the United States of America. We may not have a proud history what with maifest destiny, but this is too far.

If this kinda thing ever comes to blows, and God, I hope the hell it doesn't, I know what side I'm on.

I will say I almost feel as if I'm being manipulated. This smells a little.

[Cleita]

52. You hit the problem. People are afraid that something is

going to be taken away from them. You are playing right into the right wing kool-aid servers agenda. Fear. No one is going to take anything away from you. Those of us who are of hispanic heritage, in California especially, don't want Mexico to become our nationality. Why do you think they want to come here?

[Skip Intro]

54. Good Point

This smells. Drumming up of fear.

I hate it when I react from fear.

Still, the imagery.

Fell like I've been here before. Many times in the last six years.

[Llewlladdwr]

57. Then why are so many...

flying Mexican flags? If you don't want to be and don't consider yourself to be a Mexican then why use that particular flag?

[Cleita]

59. So many Mexican flags? I though it was one in one tiny

little suburb of Los Angeles.

[Berserker]

66. Unbelievable

and where was this one tiny little American flag tore down and the Mexican flag raised was it on American soil? I believe that LA is still and American city. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Cleita]

73. La Ciudad de La Reina de Los Angeles de Portola is the

proper name of this American city.

[struggle4progress]

77. El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciuncula?

[Cleita]

81. Thank you for correcting me!

I couldn't quite remember. But I'm sure they get the idea. :hi:

[Throd]

193. I get the idea that you obfuscate and dissemble

Give any Mechista a few beers and let them ramble in friendly company. I have heard firsthand the demonization of the mayates, chinitos y gringos.

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. Yes and .... I have also head the

the demonization of the wetbacks, racism takes two ro tango.

By the way, there are worst things to call a gringo... trust me on that... I know.

[Cleita]

245. No I don't. I couldn't remember the whole name. Most

Angelenos can't and I didn't have time to look it up. My purpose was to show that the name is Spanish in origin. What I put up was proof enough if not entirely accurate word for word. The rest of your post is highly insulting to white people unless you think calling them gringo is a compliment. I have no idea what you mean by mayates and chinitos but considering you lumped them in with gringos I have to assume that they are equally insulting. Name calling is against the rules here at DU.

[Igel]

269. I've been lectured here by

people claiming that 'gringo' was at worst neutral, at best a term of mild endearment. Of course, it was done by DUers supporting a specific set of DUers, and I was on the opposing side in the argument.

I personally consider 'anglo' to be insulting, but what can you do?

[Cleita]

270. Anglo is a word like hispanic, that labels one group as different

from the other. Neither is meant to be insulting. Actually, both words are meaningless really and shouldn't be used. When I lived in South America gringo applied to everyone of northern European ethnicity, however, here in America it's more insulting. Americans were specifically labeled yanquis in South America. None of the terms were meant as insults but were common slang. The real insulting words for white Americans I won't put up here. You already know the real insulting words for hispanics and hispanic Americans.

[Igel]

268. Of course, 'Baghdad' isn't an Arabic word.

It's Persian, in fact.

In fact, al-Anbar used to be the name of Fallujah (so I guess 'Anbar' is the 'proper name' of that Iraqi city). A nice Persian word, I've been told.

I wonder what the *real* proper name of all these places are, you know, what they were called before the Europeans got to the area known as 'California' and set up the empire later inherited by the government in Mexico City, or before the Arabs and Persians got to the area now known as 'Iraq'. But the former search for the 'proper name' ultimately get us to asking who the first settlers were were in the area--they certainly had language--while the latter forces us to ponder whether Neandertals had language, whether archaic humans did, or if the early modern humans that displaced the Neandertals bothered to give those locals any name at all.

[Cleita]

273. Los Angeles was in fact founded by Spanish rancheros.

The early city still stands in part in an area now known as Olivera Street in downtown Los Angeles.
Some of the old family names have become famous, for instance Elena Verdugo and Leo Carrillo who were descended from the original settlers.

The Chumash native American tribes were nomadic and didn't build cities. It's all on display in and exhibit in the Museum of Natural History in Elysian Park in Los Angeles.

[Igel]

291. Yes it was.

Explore the history of some of the cities in the Middle East, and elsewhere.

Founders frequently lose. And when they lose, they lose their claims. Otherwise we'd be arguing for Iranian sovereignty over Baghdad, "God's Gift", and Roman sovereignty over London--Londinium (and other British towns). But those imperialists were driven out by other imperialists or by the natives. Other times the imperalists are simply absorbed; otherwise Germans would properly claim Paris.

In both cases, the indigenous folk--to the extent any were left--weren't asked. But I'm sure that the folk in the area had names for the areas. Otherwise, for example, a Chumash would be asked, "So, where were you today?" "One of the places that have no name." That wouldn't go over well.

This is the equivalent of arguing that a word's "proper" meaning is the one that etymology yields.

[Llewlladdwr]

71. Guess you missed all the rallies a few months ago?

I recall seeing lots of Mexican flags. There was even a similar incident involving a high school.

[Cleita]

85. Okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty.

Is this about flags or about Mexicans. Because if it's about Mexicans, they are here. There is nothing you can do about it except shoot them.

[Llewlladdwr]

98. I thought it was about Mexican flags?

But as far as illegals go, there's plenty of actions that can be taken short of shooting them. For example, actually enforce the laws against hiring them. Once a few CEOs, small business owners and lawyers go to jail the jobs will start drying up. With no work there's no reason to stay. Or, actually deport the illegals arrested instead of just turning them lose on the general population. Strengthen the laws against identity theft and stiffen the penalties for using a fake SSN. Deny illegals driver's licenses. There's plenty that we could do that we aren't.

[struggle4progress]

102. *gasp* You mean they were plotting against post office flagpoles?

It sounds like this is a threat sweeping the country!

Today! A post office in Los Angeles! Tomorrow! A post office in Burbank! If we aren't vigilant, a Mexican flag will soon be flying over Baja California ...

Where will it stop? :scared:

Which of the post office flagpoles in my town do you think I should guard?

[Llewlladdwr]

107. All of them.

You can't be too careful....

[silverojo]

86. Yes, so many Mexican flags

<<So many Mexican flags? I though it was one in one tiny little suburb of Los Angeles.>>

These flags are all over America, in shop windows and what have you, being flown by people who refuse to fly American flags. That should tell you something about their loyalties.

[FARAFIELD]

101. I got an idea why dont you

Go tell all the Irish Americans to take down their beloved IRish flags on St Patricks, day???? What a hypocrite!!! those damn irish they are loyal only to IReland I suppose!!!!

[tanyev]

159. Apparently there are lots of Irish illegals in U.S., too.

Don't hear too many complaints about them, though.

[High Plains]

199. I don't give a shit if people want to have Mexican flags on their cars

or anywhere else for that matter.

God, the nativist paranoia level around here is disturbing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. And if you are not careful you may notice the Italian

flags, the Irish flags, and more rarely polish flags... then there are the Puerto Rican flags and some of those folks truly want independence from the US.

So tell me, can Italian American and Irish American fly the flag no problem (and I don't mean the stars and stripes here), but Mexicans cannot? When was that forbidden?

And given the high percentage of those same mexican American kids in the armed forces... I think you are blowing a little paranoid smoke

Oh and given the avatar you are running, somebody will question your loyalties as well... not me, I know better.

[MoseyWalker]

58. I see your point, but

(there had to be a but, didn't there!)

there are many reasons why immigrants come to this country.

I see it as a logical progression.

There are laws about legal immigration. There are many who choose not to pay attention.

There are many who see those who do not pay attention as not creating a problem.

There are many who see those who do not pay attention as creating a problem.

I live in the southwest, and see this as a problem. A very real, day to day problem. Not some idealistic thought that was jettisoned into the cyberworld. A very real, day to day problem.

I don't see most immigrants as personal threats, but the level of illegal immigration creates problems. Problems that have to be dealt with, because it is a real problem. I wish a true discussion could be had, but it can't because most are seeing the situation from here or there, many who have no idea what people in the areas are truly dealing with.

I don't want to have emotions about this, because that would be a freeper, moron type of response, however, I wonder where people are that they don't see this as a problem to be worked through.

[Cleita]

62. So you see a problem that needs to be addressed.

We all do. But on either side of the issue there has to be dialogue and factual information put up. Bumper sticker hate messages won't work. All it will do is get another bunch of Republicans elected in November. This is their plan and their operatives are busy at work even convincing DUers that this is a hate issue. The flag! Hate that flag!

[MoseyWalker]

72. what I'm saying is

I wish more would respond with thoughtful responses on how to deal with a very real situation, and find a solution for america rather than give simplistic answers to what is obviously a problem presented in a way so as to gain emotional, rather that thoughtful, responses.

that is what I wish.

It is a problem to be dealt with, sooner or later. People have to look at possible solutions rather than respond to internet posts with simplistic answers that show they are part of the propagandistic problem, not part of the solution.

There used to be a time when people could discuss problems, and try to find thoughtful solutions. That time does not appear to be now.

(not speaking to you directly, btw!)

[Cleita]

90. You are very right.

I actually stayed away from these threads for awhile, putting the flamers on ignore, the whole slinking back in the shadows so as not to be noticed, but I am really concerned over the way this country has been taken over by the Bush cabal and they have pulled every stop out in their effort. This latest race war is following the abortion wars, and many others. I may not last here but I will attempt to fight the ignorance and the deliberate seeding of misinformation as long as I am allowed to.

[silverojo]

88. It wasn't the Republicans who convinced me it's a hate issue

It's all the hate being spewed on the pro-illegals' web sites. People who are tired of illegal immigration are furious with Bush, so it's hardly playing into right-wingers' hands.

This issue is going to blow up in the faces of BOTH parties, if they don't stop ignoring the majority of Americans who want illegal immigration controlled, and fast.

[Cleita]

103. Why don't you tells why you call yourself "silver eye"?

If you want the phrase in Spanish, it's "Ojo de Plata". I think there is a story here that we would like to know.

[silverojo]

130. Silverojo is JAPANESE, not Spanish

It means "silver princess". It was the name of a character on a Japanese TV show.

See, there are other cultures in the world beside Hispanic ones.

[Cleita]

137. Thank you for explaining and how nice that we

might start a little international tolerance here. See I shudda known but I didn't. Now it's time for you to learn something about the people you don't seem to like.

[FARAFIELD]

106. No it wont blow up in both parties

It will only blow up with the republican right wingers becuase their feelings are more along the racist lines and us progressives are more along the tolerant line. I think it means something that people want to be Americans, I dont like illegal immigration but i grew up in California so what are you going to do? This comes down to an ANTI hispanic thing for me, because no one is giving a crap about the million plus illegal CHINESE, its the right wingers talking about invasion and blah blah, its a loser for the repukes, because if you can vote and you are hispanic us DEMS seem to be on the right side of this one. Put that one in your pipe.

[Ken Burch]

202. Why such a fetish about the idea that "they broke the law"?

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the reason these people didn't go through the standard immigration channels is that they would probably have starved to death if they'd waited for all the formalities(which are dragged out for years for Hispanic immigrants, far longer than they ever are for Europeans)to be completed?

If you don't want "illegals" help organize working people on both sides of the border for workers' rights, a decent wage and decent working conditions NO MATTER WHICH COUNTRY THEY LIVE IN.

It doesn't help anything for "citizen" workers to fight "illegals" when both should be joining forces to fight the real enemy.

[Berserker]

61. Fear?

Yes you are right they should fear the American Patriot. And that's not right wing kool-aid talking thats patriotism talking. This is not a repuke stance this is and American stance.

[Cleita]

64. Patriotism. Yes, you must be patriotic because to disagree

with the fuhrer makes you unpatriotic. Something Goering said.

[Scout1071]

243. I agree. This is too damn far.

I agree it smells, but I will say that this picture and story pissed me off big-time. I'm all for immigration, but I will not stand for this. Period. This is the type of shit that will turn me and the average American away.

[Hosnon]

53. Too far. Bees and honey, guys...nt

[tanyev]

65. American citizens waving a foreign flag in an American city. Tsk, tsk.

[jerry611]

83. Who said they are citizens?

If they are illegal...police should have arrested them and shipped them out.

If they are not US citizens, they don't have any rights under the constitution.

[Don Claybrook]

99. non-citizens have no rights under the Constitution?

Alberto Gonzales? Is it really you?

Please show me the "screw you, foreigner" clause of the US Constitution, the part that says they have no protctions under said constitution.

[jerry611]

119. You think the founders intended for foreign nationals to be protected?

Are you crazy?

And my point still stands...if they are illegal, arrest them and ship them out. They are illegal. They should not have a job. They shouldn't be jamming our school system. And they should not be milking our healthcare system.

Sorry but I have absolutely no respect for illegals to walk into this nation and then fly their national flag while demanding rights. My family has sacrificed too much for the American flag for me to allow it to be trashed by peopld that don't give a damn about it.

[datasuspect]

223. um yes, a foreign national is accorded the same PROTECTIONS

under our laws.

are you on acid?

[nadinbrzezinski]

237. Wromg, yes they do

all rights except voting, perchance you might want to read it.

[SoCalifer]

315. Sigh

If they are illegal...police should have arrested them and shipped them out.

If they are not US citizens, they don't have any rights under the constitution.

The reason police don't arrest so-called illegal immigrants is because of many legal reasons. One having to do with "constitutional rights".

I would suggest that maybe you should look more closely at the Constitution and take note that in certain places it is specific toward the "Rights of U.S. Citizens" such as "Citizens" having the right to vote. But the Constitution is equally specific about "Rights" of none U.S. Citizens, such as "ALL Persons" have a right to due process of law.

[silverojo]

91. Those flags aren't on federal property

Get a clue!!

[FARAFIELD]

113. When Dale Earnhardt died

pOST OFFICES FLEW THE NUMBER 3 FLAG AT HALF MAST, did you say something about that?

[silverojo]

133. When Dale Earnhardt died

There wasn't an angry mob taking down the US flag by force. It was something the post offices in question did voluntarily.

[struggle4progress]

191. Got any links for "angry mobs taking down the US flag by force"?

I'm quite eager to read all the details of this story.

Does it include the new revelations about how Jon Benet was about to blow the lid off a Latin American terrorist conspiracy which she had infiltrated on her trip to Aruba and how Clinton's failure to take her revelations seriously sealed her fate?

[nadinbrzezinski]

238. Have you driven into a US Military base recently?

I have... and you will see plenty, and I mean PLENTY of foreign flags on service members cars as well as their families. Perchance you are a tad paranoid but here is the list of flags I have seen

Cuba. Mexico, Ireland, Israel, Puerto Rico (granted this is a territory but you get the point). German, British, get the picture? They ARE on federal property. Wyy do you think base commanders have never gone out of their way to forbid this behavior from people they could very well do?

[enid602]

87. Cao Ky

The ex-President of South Vietnam lives in nearby Garden Grove, surrounded by hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. His house is built to look like an old presidential palace in Saigon, and he flies the South Vietnamese flag every day. Where's the rage there?

[silverojo]

135. I don't like illegals from ANY country

I don't like illegals of any color, white included. It's just that the Mexican border is so porous, it needs to be dealt with first.

[Cleita]

188. Interesting!

The Canadian border is far more porous than the Mexican border. You want to know why? It's longer to begin with. It isn't patrolled as vigorously as the southern border so there are all sorts of white people who pour through everyday.

Prove me wrong.

[Llewlladdwr]

142. No one cares ...

what flag you fly over your house, or your place of business. What has upset some (myself included) is the raising of a foreign flag over a US Government facility.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[im10ashus]

95. You are serious????

Or should I say, "series." I wondered what the snake flag in the crowd was about. :shrug:

[jerry611]

96. Regardless....illegal immigration has gone way too far in this nation

Illegal immigration needs to be stopped. The border needs to be secured. And we need to stop supporting the corporate agenda of exploiting slave labor of the 3rd world.

If you support illegal immigration, you are a Bush supporter. Because illegal immigration is the centerpiece of Bush's free trade agenda.

[cboy4]

114. I know! Illegal immigration has gone "way too far" in this

nation, why I barely get eight hours of sleep every night. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

118. Nice flag, btw.

:)

[cboy4]

125. Y Thank you!

:)

[struggle4progress]

120. "All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to ..

.. an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian" -Pat Paulsen

[im10ashus]

122. "Regardless....illegal immigration has gone way too far in this nation"

But this is a 97% Hispanic community and these bigoted "minutemen" are way out of line here. There's a difference in fighting for reform and blatant racism.

[jerry611]

124. Funny...the protesters look hispanic to me

Obviously they supported putting the flag on that pole. And I guess the people with the signs that said things like "STOLEN" were just minutemen too?

Come on...

Even if racist groups started it, the hispanic groups played along. For that, they are just as guilty.

[im10ashus]

129. "Funny...the protesters look hispanic to me"

Funny...I can't tell their ethnicity as the picture is somewhat blurred and distorted. AND I have 20/20 vision. :shrug: Do you always paint with such a broad brush?

[Ken Burch]

201. The way to stop "illegal" immigration

Is to organize working people on BOTH sides of the border for workers' rights, social justice and full employment.
Your approach is basically to say to Latino immigrants "stay home and starve, you aren't human and you don't matter".
Justice is the solution, not a fascist wall that won't ever keep people out anyway.

[The Straight Story]

100. I googled it, this pic was found:

[FARAFIELD]

117. Good for you

I feel somewhat redeemed now, Despite the fact that the moderator took down my post that told the story accuarately, IM glad someone posted a pic that shows that it was actually a protest by local Hispanic citizens against white supremicists, Klan Members and Minutemen that had staged an ANTI IMMIGRATION rally. Sheesh, why should the truth be deleted.?

[im10ashus]

123. There's a story here:

http://www.theexperiment.org/articles.php?news_id=2188

:hi:

[K8-EEE]

184. Interesting!! Noticed The "Mexiwood, Population Illegal" Signs

Hey tempers were flamin' on both sides. I don't approve of the post office thing and think they should have the book thrown at them but please, don't act like Mexicans stormed the P.O. out of nowhere. Listen to the BS that guy is spouting on the video here -- people lost their cool and did the flag thing not because it was "federal property" but because it was a flag pole and they wanted to piss off these freepers. But don't misrepresent this 20 minute Jerry Springer episode with the entire Latino population, that's not fair.

[im10ashus]

187. Agreed.

These bigots went there looking for trouble, IMHO. Looks like they got just what they came for if you ask me.

[silverojo]

138. You've got it backward

The locals came out to COUNTER protest the SOS/Minutemen protest.

[K8-EEE]

186. Those SOS/Minutemen Looked Like Asshole Freeper Types

And they had a lot of racist-type signs...shit got stirred up and somebody pulled the flag prank, and yes that person defaced federal property and should be charged and prosecuted but the alarmist BS over this incident is ridiculous.

[silverojo]

127. Freeper, my a**

Let's see, I worked my butt off volunteering for Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton (2x) and Kerry. What were you doing all these years? I'm a third-generation Democrat, and just because I don't want to see my country's flag stolen from federal property doesn't make me a freeper.

<<The town of maywood is almost completley hispanic (around 95%).>>

Duh. I suppose its being a haven for illegals to stay without fear of deportation or prosecution has nothing whatsoever to do with that. And don't tell me, let me guess...you're Hispanic?

<<the Save our State group (in other words the Minutemen and Klan members)>>

Enough of your lies. The Klan WAS NOT there. The Minutemen are just Americans who are tired of our government not protecting our borders. The Save Our State group is being painted as racist by pro-illegal liars, in an effort to make their very real concerns be labeled racism.

<<announced they were going to MARCH through the town (as a provacatio)>>

They didn't march as a provacatio, nor did they march at all. They stood in the downtown area and PROTESTED (an American right, something you really seem to hate) Maywood's insane policies of harboring illegals AND getting rid of their traffic cops, so that illegals don't even have to worry about being picked up for traffic violations.

More importantly, it was the pro-illegals who arrived to cause trouble during a peaceful demonstration. You may lie, but the videos on YouTube don't--it's very obvious who the troublemakers were, and it was NOT the SOS or Minutemen causing trouble.

<<if you will notice in the Posters pictures, the photos are taken from behind the barricade where the Minutemen and Klan Members are, (that ought to be your first clue)>>

If they're these rough, tough Klanners (as you falsely claim), how come these people weren't yelling racist slurs and beating people up? How come THEY were the ones getting yelled at and beaten up? How come THEIR cars were vandalized, while the pro-illegals' cars weren't? Because the pro-illegals were the thugs, period.

And I know freakin' good and well the pics were taken from the Americans' side. Now I suppose it's wrong for Americans to take pictures?

<<Another thing it was after hours and so as a sign to let the Minutemen and Klan Members whose town it is some of the towns folk ran up the Mexican Flag.>>

If you're really a postal worker as you claim, then you're fully aware that what they did is illegal, and anti-American besides. If you want to object to someone's presence, you don't do it by putting the flag of a foreign nation on federal property. Maywood isn't a Mexican town, though people like you would love to think so.

<<The truth is this post and those pictures were taken from where the Klan and minutemen people were and whoever posting this is just a poser.>>

It's bad enough you're lying about the protest, but you're NOT going to get away with lying about me. I challenge everybody reading this to look at my web site (click the link in my sig) which I worked my butt off on, and wrote material for over the course of DECADES. You'll see what a freeper I'm NOT. I worked my fingers to the bone, volunteering for Dem candidates over the years and supporting the party. It may come as a shock to you, but there are Democrats who don't think it's a great idea to let illegal immigration go unchecked.

<<Sure we are supposed to be nice, but lets be allowed to call it the way we see it. I bet you a million if I google "maywood and mexican flag" i can get the real story.>>
Go ahead. While you're at it, go to YouTube and look at all the videos from the event. The real story is out there...the question is, will you keep lying about it, the way you're lying about me?

[jerry611]

140. Don't worry about people like him

He supports open-borders, illegal immigration, and Bush' free trade policies. And the only way he can justify his argument is by calling everyone that disagrees with him racist.

Apparently to many DUers...it is racist to be angry about illegals coming into this country flying the Mexican flag on government buildings.

[Ken Burch]

203. If the Minutemen had existed in 1939

They would have been working night and day to keep Jewish refugees from Hitler from getting to safety in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. The US government did that

Read about the ship of the damned. We are a very racist country at the core... and I fear it has not changed, under the surface that is, from the hay days of segregation and WW II...

This nativist paranoia rears it very uggly head ever so often. Mexicans are the new Jews and Italians, with some Irish thrown in... that is the truth.

[Ken Burch]

255. I know it was official government policy.

I was just pointing out that that policy would have been backed by today's "stop illegal immigration" types.

[nadinbrzezinski]

258. In that we agree

they also suported the stop Italian and Irish immigration. Hell, these were teh sme folks who posted No Irish, Italian or Negro served here. At times they added Jew too... and were behind the land deeds forbiding the sale of land to the above mentioned groups... a friend of mine, she is a holocaust survivor, bought a house in La Jolla, California, to point one place in particular where this practice was common. The only reason they could not do that were laws in the books in the 70s... but she has the original house deed.

[Cobalt Violet]

108. K. & R.

[EFerrari]

112. LOL!

:rofl:

[WillyT]

139. LOL !!!

:rofl:

:hi:

[EFerrari]

150. Caramba!

:hi:

[WillyT]

153. Mui Loco !!!

:hi:

[NNN0LHI]

141. How many innocent Iraqis did we kill today?

Oops wrong thread.

Don

[Cleita]

146. Will we ever know.?

I guess those we are fighting over here so we don't have to fight them over there are our own fellow citizens.

[jerry611]

148. Iraq isn't the only problem facing this country...

Unfortunately it is the only issue anyone wants to concentrate on...

[EFerrari]

151. You're right. We're also faced with the issue of mindless nationalism

and bigotry flowering in the night.

[tanyev]

155. *snort*

:toast:

[Cleita]

174. Double *snort*

:toast:

[jerry611]

156. So allowing 15 million Mexicans to flood our borders is a non-issue?

Are you insane?

[im10ashus]

158. What's this 15 million of which you speak?

Can you at least provide some hard data as opposed to your random thoughts?

[jerry611]

162. The government estimates that between 11 and 15 million are here

You live in New York. you don't see it.

Come down to the South and I will personally show you how bad this problem really is. Police just raided a house about 2 blocks from me. Why? Because over 30 (THIRTY) illegal aliens from Mexico were living in it. Not a single one of them could speak English, and most had fake IDs that they bought on the street.

Police also just did a sting to shut down a hispanic gang responsible for a half-dozen drive-by shootings.

Schools are now above 40 students a class. Walk into any ER and you will find 80% of the people in the waiting room hispanic unable to speak any english.

This is a MAJOR problem...And if we don't solve it fast, it will sink America.

[cboy4]

167. Oh my. Here is a good decal for your pick-up if you don't have one already

;)

[RebelOne]

212. Where can I buy it?

[cboy4]

302. Hmmm, nice response. Sounds like you manufacture them

:eyes:

[Lost-in-FL]

322. I think you might find a good link here

You might also enjoy the video I suppose. :sarcasm:

http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?ID=184

[Ken Burch]

180. The above post is a version of the same paranoid rant

That has been directed at EVERY immigrant group in this country's history.

The truth is, the reason there are so many Mexicans here illegally is that it has always, and for no just reason, been made harder form Latin American people(other than right-wing Cubans after 1959)to come to this country than it was for anyone from say Ireland, Poland, Italy, or Eastern Europe. Why was this so? Why should it EVER have been more difficult to move from Tijuana to San Diego than it was to move from Prague to Pittsburg, or from Belfast to Boston, or from Rome to Rochester?

[Ms. Clio]

208. what a steaming load

If you have links to any of that hysterical tripe, then provide them.

Otherwise, you're just pulling all those screaming stories and stats straight out of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

244. Sadly anecdotally mind you

I could point to days when the ER was full of Americans who spoke no word of spanish (After a good bar fight usually) but gosh golly, that was a border city and we had that problem oh 'bout once a month... that is when my ability to speak both languages became so important.

Oh wait, forgot to put it in here ... the gringos are coming, the gringos are comming... :sarcasm:

Forgot to mention that this was on the MEXICAN side of the border.. and this is when lovely words like pinche gabacho (told you there is worst than gringo) flowed freely from some personnel. Nothing lovelier than to have to deal with a drunk while you attempt to get some sutures on them, I don't care what language they speak.

[EFerrari]

160. Jerry, there have always been Hispanics in this country. There

has always been a population of workers going back and forth between the US and Latin America. This is an issue brought to you by the GOP.

You can bust a gut or you can get some facts in hand.

And no, I'm not insane as far as I can tell. :)

[jerry611]

171. Not with these numbers....

1.2 million a year are flooding this country just from Mexico alone. And you don't think this is a problem.

It is obvious that you favor a world without borders. And that is where we disagree. We are obviously not going to find common ground on that. I don't believe in that kind of Disney world.

[EFerrari]

173. You may be right.

:)

[Ken Burch]

183. What the hell DO you believe in?

It sure doesn't sound like you believe in a society with any progressive or compassionate values. You can't deny a person's humanity because of what side of an arbitrary border they were born on.

And really, why should anyone BUT the rich care about borders? If we are going to have free movement of capital, why should we not have equally free movement of human beings?

The answer is to build a just and progressive world everywhere, not just to say, as the anti-immigration reactionaries do "you wetbacks should stay home and starve because THAT'S your station in life."

[nadinbrzezinski]

246. Actually yes

you may research the brasero program in the 1950s. By percentage of the population it was THAT HIGH... just that it was out mind out of sight. And during WW II... plenty of people (in the millions) came over to work in fields, factories and other essential war time industries... out of those millions, most remained in the US.

By the way... replace Mexican for Italian and 2006 for oh 1890s and you have the same tripe and the same language... just as a simple example

Also, and this is a "problem" that exists since at least 1848 (partly due to the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo that the US Congress ratified and BOTH Nations still treat as in effect) the movements of populations across the border is legally allowed. Then there is this wonderful thing you should read, called NAFTA, especially the side agreements regarding immigration, that again the US Congress (need I remind you a REPUBLICAN one) ratified? Under these agreements Mexicans, Canadians and Americans can move freely without papers across borders. At times I am amazed a young Latino lawyer has not taken the whole immigration matter to immigration court on these grounds alone, but that is another story.

Yes I live in the Southwest, by the way... and I know problems do exist, but you know what? They are the same problems that existed with every other population that moved to the US .

And if you want America for Americans... you know what buddy, I hope you enjoy the place where your family came from. Some of these immigrants, from the we were here first mentality, have a far better claim to the land than you or I do.

[Quantess]

267. I think overpopulation is a big issue.

There are just too many people for this earth to sustain. Correct me if I'm mistaken, I very well could be, but some countries seem to be overflowing with people. The environment suffers. I think it is better for the environment when immigration is not out of control.

[Cybergata]

309. Oh yes....

blame environmental pollution on the Mexicans! Get real. How about all those good U.S. companies that have moved across the border as a way of avoiding the environmental standards in the U.S.? Do you care that you buy products that have increased pollution in Mexico? How about all those SUVs that cause more pollution than regular passenger cars? How about the government's relaxation of the pollution laws we worked hard to enact a couple of decades ago? What about the companies that give campaign contributions to those in power to ensure that they are not asked to clean up their act? No, it is that dirty Mexican. Talk about wearing your racism in large letters across your forehead. Shame on you.

Some people responding here don't get it. Immigration has always been viewed as a problem when those in power fear that those who have no power will demand their voice be heard. What better way to control those out of power but to divide and then ignore once they are in power.

Before long those of us who have had family living in my part of the world since 1598 and for a few 1000 years before that are going to have to carry identification cards because we look just like those environmentally challenged Mexicans. When it comes to discrimination against illegals, somehow we who have deeper roots in the U.S. than most of you get hit by the poop that is flung.

BTW, Mexicans invented recycling. Those tires that you toss aside for a new set are made new by Mexicans who use them again. They recycle everything. Think of all those tires being tossed away in the U.S. and all the plastic packaging you toss off every single purchase you make before you say the environment is worse when immigration increases. Before you call my brothers and sisters on the other side your imaginary border the problem for our environment look at all the filth we create on this side of your immaginary border.

[nadinbrzezinski]

242. Mind yuo MOST of these people have come across over the

last six years. Perchance you are barking up the wrong tree?

[xynthee]

293. Thanks for that!

:applause:

I don't know why I read these threads; they make me SOOOOOOOOO mad. I can't believe how the really hateful people seem to materialize out of nowhere when immigration is discussed. They have to be trolls, don't they?

I appreciate you fighting the good fight. I'm too thin-skinned to get into it with these people! I'm glad you're not.

Thanks again!

[EFerrari]

298. Welome to DU, xynthee

:hi:

[im10ashus]

157. Wrong.

Jon Benet is far more the story than anything happening in Iraq. Most American's can tell you what is happening with a confessed child molestor but have no idea of the number of lives lost today in Iraq. It's pathetic.

[EFerrari]

161. LOL

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

169. You behave.

:rofl:

I am series.

[EFerrari]

172. I'm getting out my Chaucer right NOW to see what the Wyf would do.

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

175. LOL!

I hear Camus is "hot" this summer. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

177. Hamlet! He's supposed to be reading HAMLET

:shrug:

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

178. The Elizabethan language was just too much for him.

Can you hear it now?

Bubble-boy: Tony, this shit sucks. He couldn't even write proper English.

Tony Snow: Mr. President, that IS proper English.

Bubble-boy: Pull my finger. Heh, heh.

[EFerrari]

181. What a piece of work

is man. Or near man, W.

:toast:

[im10ashus]

182. I'll drink to that.

:toast:

[autorank]

198. "I hear Lou Dobbs did a story.." "I haven't watched all the videos"

"I've heard of the mob beating up..."

This sounds like Fox News. That's the most densely packed OP in terms of meaningless, but inflammatory assertions based on nothing...

Dobbs story -- the demonstrators are anti - American but you didn't see it.

Demonstrators beating the elderly -- but you have not seen it yet.

This is inflammatory and unsupported.

[Ms. Clio]

209. exactly -- no links to any sort of genuine news source

just a lot of crap.

[silverojo]

280. Well, Lou Dobbs HAS done the story

<<"I hear Lou Dobbs did a story.." "I haven't watched all the videos">>

I've also since had time to watch the videos. Bury your head in the sand all you like--it happened. Which you would know if you actually looked at facts, instead of pro-illegal propaganda.

[Marr]

200. Please- I don't buy this for a second.

It's election season, anti-immigrant sentiment is just about the only thing the GOP can run on, and this meshes absolutely perfectly with the right-wing talking points.

I'd bet you cash money this was staged either by some right-wing civilian group, or by a government agency. Perhaps not the gathering itself, but the flag and several of the signs. They simply play too neatly into the right-wing propaganda.

How many times have we seen similarly doubtful (though convenient for the GOP) situations come up, and then turn out to be staged? I can't even count the times. I'm amazed that anyone on DU still reacts to this garbage with a "well, we have to wait and see". I don't have to wait and see- this is clearly bullshit.

[treestar]

214. Psy-ops

Written all over it. If it even happened.

Couldn't agree more.

[hogwyld]

204. So what, it was theirs first anyway

Let them have their fun. At least the Mexicans are fighting for their elections unlike tee lapdogs here in previous years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. You know how to make this highly ineffective?

ignore it, just like idiots in the ME burn the American flag. Let them, make it a non issue, ignore it.

By the way as an immigrant I know there are actually things a little more important to get PO'ed over than people raising a piece of cloth up... yes it is a symbol that has changed oh so many times... over the course of Mexican History. But you know what actually outrages me a tad more (as in a lot more), our dear leader and his people SHREDDING the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Yes a flag is a symbol, but the Constitution is far more critical.

Disclaimer, I came from Mexico... I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic, and you know what... these immigrants are just annoying, and bad at PR... but chukclenuts are doing the real damage. You see these photos, and your blood boils, mission accomplished.

[treestar]

213. Are you forgetting that there are Muslims out there who want to

kill you?

:sarcasm:

Why are you worried about this?

[The Backlash Cometh]

216. I tried to tell ya'll, but you wouldn't listen.

Nationalizing an immigrant to become an American citizen is a process that requires full cooperation from the individual. Having one illegal alien slip over the border with strong ideas of what this country owes him is one thing, but when you have great numbers with the same perception...problem.

[WinkyDink]

217. Maybe they don't remember they lost the war. Sorry, but this is

now bugging the beejeebers out of me. Somehow we native-born should rally to support ILLEGAL immigrants?

Somewhere, Patrick Buchanan just sold some more books.

[LanternWaste]

220. Until U.S. flags are not printed on paprer plates and diapers...

Oh my gosh! ...and just last week I was at Six Flags Over Texas and they SIX different flags! Only one of which was the American flag! The nerve of some people! And just last week a high school geography teacher was suspened because he had flags of counties other than America!

Until U.S. flags are not printed on paper plates and diapers anymore, I see it as just another election years issue...

[distantearlywarning]

221. My opinion?

This is completely a non-issue. Its primary usefulness is to right-wing politicians and others who want to rile up the American public prior to election day about something that doesn't really matter but is a simplistic, easy to understand issue with emotionally charged pictures. You should dump this Mexican flag story on the "who gives a crap" list right next to the other major issues of the right wing manipulators this year: flag-burning, the "War on Christmas", and the fact that some people in Alabama and South Carolina keep sex toys in their bedrooms.

Further, I suggest that if people, including the OP, would like to get extremely upset about something going on in this country, that you consider spending some energy worrying about electronic voting, the Patriot Act, our country's inability to respond to natural disasters or terrorist attacks, or the consequences of global warming. Just to name a few.

[datasuspect]

222. what this thread needs

is a little tricolor:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

225. Let me see if I get this straight. They threw rocks and bottles...

...at the police... and yet the thing you're most upset about is replacing a FLAG???

Really. Get a grip.

[WinkyDink]

260. The FLAG-RAISING was the catalyst to the violence.

Gee, maybe we should have "Adopt-a-Post Office", like to clear highway litter. Maybe the German settlers where I live could replace the S&S with the German flag.

Or is this okay only for ILLEGAL immigrants?

[Name removed]

229. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Union Label]

230. It looks like some repebliCON commercial

Just in time for november, how convenient. Mostly a bunch of racist freepers. Fuck'em!:evilgrin:

[Dora]

235. Some people are frightened by flags.

Ooooooh. "They" hung "their" flag! Color me quaking in my boots!

Let's pay attention to an issue that really matters: impeachment, perhaps?

[GreenArrow]

292. flags are symbols

might this act contain some sort of symbolism?

[WinkyDink]

261. ITA. I CANNOT believe there is ANYBODY who can support ANY FLAG other

than the NATIONAL one on FEDERAL buildings!

WTH????

[Skidmore]

263. I agree. To me that says they are claiming US land.

An act like this could be viewed as an act of aggression easily and not a harmless stunt. There are many ways this can be interpreted.

[noamnety]

308. Good lord.

Please learn the difference between street theatre as part of a political protest, and "an act of aggression."

Maybe they're a whole nation of avid stamp collectors and they are plotting to buy up all our Ronald Reagan stamps. :scared:

[Cybergata]

310. Sort of like when the U.S. marched into my state...

and planted the U.S. flag. There were also hangings of those who resisted because they feared losing their land, which was exactly what ended up happening. I'd say that it really helps to have some good old hangings and guns to be an act of aggression. The Mexican flag incident sounds less like aggression but more like a crime of passion. Of course all of this is just another way of dividing those who have united to push for a more Democratic U.S.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

312. I agree.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

265. Eeek! The Brown Bogeyman is gonna' getcha!

Golly, a flag! How terrifying!

[savemefromdumbya]

271. We fly an Irish flag sometimes and no one tries to take it down?

not just on St Paddy's day

[silverojo]

281. I don't fly Irish flags over my local post office

And if you tried to, you'd be arrested before it reached the top of the flagpole.

[Solon]

303. Dude, get a grip...

Its not unusual around here to see Irish flags flying in CITY HALL, oh gosh, the HORRORS! :sarcasm:

[savemefromdumbya]

311. No not here I don't think they would notice

[Xenotime]

272. They deserve to have their voice heard.

If there was wrong doing, it should be undone.

[PresidentWar]

275. VIVA AZTLAN!

[Name removed]

282. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

306. That doesn't fit in this thread.

Nothing personal against Number 42 or anything, it's just that this isn't the Former Democratic President Personal Appearance Announcement Group.

[WI_DEM]

283. I don't really care

This seems like something to inflame racial hatred and will play into the hands of the GOP, I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't behind it.

[Jed Dilligan]

285. Whenever someone suggests that I have to agree with them,

I disagree.

I could give a flying fuck what flag flies anywhere.

EOM

[unlawflcombatnt]

294. Question

Do any of the videos show the Mexican flag being raised?

[noamnety]

300. In Providence, Rhode Island

The Italian section of town (Federal Hill) has areas where instead of two yellow lines down the middle of the road, the roads have a red, white and green stripe to represent the Italian flag.

Yet, somehow, people manage to survive there. :)

[Lost-in-FL]

313. What if it was Pakistani agents

inciting violence by placing Mexican flags? Some look Mexican to me. :+

[Marie26]

314. I do not understand

why people care so much. The whole flag hysteria still leaves me perplexed. OMG - Mexican flags! Run! These are some protesters who got out of hand in Maywood, CA. Why is it inspiring 300+ posts here? When did people start caring so much about the Post Office as a sacred symbol of US sovereignty? The anger is way out of proportion, IMO. And of course Lou Dobbs did a story on it. That goes without saying. Wherever there's a Mexican flag glimpsed at a protest, he'll be there. *Saluting*