Cleaning up Great Britain's Imperialist mess

[MikeyJones]

I won't lie, I strongly detest the virtual "no criticism off the hook" blank check the United Kingdom has gotten for the past 50+ years for their Imperialist past simply because they helped sack that maniac Hitler.

These people imperialized a third of the planet and massacred millions and committed genocide and mass murder on the level of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao against millions of "dark and yellow" peoples around the world in the name of propping up their fat, pompous ass of a monarch. Why do we hold them up as a standard to admire? The pound is only worth as much as it is because of all the platinum, silver, gold, jewels, and all the various other natural resources that the English crown stole and raped from its colonies for 150 years that now reside in that country's vaults.

Why are Kenya, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. so fucking poor? Because Great Britain stole hoards of their wealth and kept them for years from joining the international community and kept billions from advancing and enjoying the same standard of living we enjoy in the west because of all the assets and resources stolen by the British.


In 1922 British officers and delegations from the Saudi royal family met and drew up the current border of Iraq without any regard for the tribal, ethnic, religious, or historical sentiments that the "Iraqi" people might have to having their land stolen from them and being turned basically into little more than an oil tap for Great Britain and her tea-sucking socialites who lived high on the hog off the back of millions of impoverished, starving, third-world "colored" quasi-slaves.

You wanna know why Iraq looks like the Balkans? Because it fucking is like the Balkans. Any mutli-ethnic state can only be held together by a strong and ruthless central government that doesn't tolerate bullshit. Case in point look at Marshall Tito and Yugoslavia or the Taliban and Afghanistan. Without the centralizing order keeping the country and the people groups in cohesion it quickly becomes a Wild West free for all where the power vacuum creates ethnic strife and national civil war due to each individual group attempting to assert either its independence or its dominance over another group in the country.

A perfect example is Saddam -- he kept all the warring factions in check with an iron fist and shitloads of spilled blood.

But I beg the question -- had those racist Imperialist pompous snobbish thugs never conquered Iraq in the first place --

Would we really even need to be there in the first place cleaning up their foreign policy mess?

I think not.

The British need to answer for their Imperialist, racist past by giving up the First World standard of living they have come to enjoy from all the money they raped and pillaged from their colonies.

Only then and after years of apologies and reparations will they be vindicated and honorable enough to call themselves a nation again.

[enigma000]

1. The Ottoman empire was going to break up eventually

And if Britain and France didn't pick up the pieces I'm sure the Soviet Union or Persia would have. Even if the Arabs did manage to form 1 or more independent countries, would they have been able to avoid the chaos of WWII and the Cold War? It would be a mistake to assume the Arab world could have lived in blissful isolation these past 80 years.

[MikeyJones]

4. Why?

"It would be a mistake to assume the Arab world could have lived in blissful isolation these past 80 years."

The Turks have. With the exception of the Kurdish question they really have been isolated and have been left alone.

[enigma000]

7. Turks have a unity the Arabs don't have

They were a former world power, and became full members of NATO.

Plus Iraq and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States have oil - that makes them important.

[truebrit71]

13. Was that before or after their genocidal campigns...???

...

Hmmm, and I'm sure the Kurdish question isn't that minor to the Kurds....

[Name removed]

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[MikeyJones]

3. "misplaced, misguided and misinformed..."

Really? Tell that to all the Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs, Africans, Burmese, Malaysians, Jamacains, etc. who bled and died in English colonial prisons fighting for their freedom and for their nation's right to determine their own destiny instead of having it determined by a bunch of rich white assholes who just wanted to turn their countries into one big plantation.

And simply discounting the Empire's history as "far from perfect" does not explain the mass murders and genocidal campaigns that were carried out against quasi-defenseless third world peoples who went up against the English juggernaut with its tanks and machine guns with bows and arrows and spears.

If you can justify that then I urge you to rethink your opinion.

[truebrit71]

14. I urge you to go pound yourself in the arse....

Genocide? Really? Something like the genocide of the Native Americans in the US?

The French, Spanish and Dutch had no imperialistic designs or blame at all either eh?

So, according to you, ALL of the world's current ills can be laid at the feet of the British? I suppose you think that 9/11 was Bill Clinton's fault too right?

:eyes:

[Jed Dilligan]

36. Pretty strong argument for British genocide

See Mike Davis' "Late Victorian Holocausts"

If you don't have time to read it, it basically lays out the facts about how the colonial administrations in India and Africa systematically starved millions of people while exporting food from the starving colonies to England.

Also the English invented the concentration camp in the Boer War... The first modern "counter-insurgency" operation.

The interesting thing about looking back at the crimes of British history, instead of allowing the Blitz to wipe them clean, is that they are the exact crimes that are being repeated today. Free-trade and free-market fundamentalism at any cost... Massively superior firepower as a civilizing influence... It's all pretty familiar to the student of Victorian history.

I don't share the OP's anger at the UK or blame the English for the world's ills. But US leaders today hearken back to Victorian colonialism as a golden age of prosperity at home and only "little wars" abroad. (My least favorite British import, Niall Ferguson, is the main champion of this cause.) By using the terminology "genocide" and "holocaust" in discussing Imperial Britain, we act in the service of this particular chapter of history not repeating itself ad infinitum... Though right now the prognosis is not good.

[truebrit71]

41. "allowing the Blitz to wipe them clean"....Are you seriously suggesting...

..that had Hitler "wiped London clean" all of the modern problems wouldn't exist? That's even more ridiculous than the OP's twisted opinion....

[Jed Dilligan]

45. No, untwist your panties.

That's not in any way what I meant.

I meant that it's common to love England and London in the US today because of the heroism of our British allies during WWII. They are almost beyond criticism now, kind of like the NYPD since 9/11. The Blitz "wiped clean" the sins of England's colonial past in the American popular consciousness. The Brit went from a traditional villain to a traditional hero in our culture, and it's very hard for us now to see the English as genocidal. Which is one reason why this "repeat of Victorian colonialism" meme on the right can fly, whereas a "repeat of Mussolini's Abyssinian campaign" meme certainly would not.

[Bigmack]

5. The US has taken all the bad...

parts of British Imperialism and added that unique American combination of stupidity and high-tech weapons.

The US has also ignored the nation/infrastructure building parts of Brit imperialsim.

US foreign policy... clusterfuck only begins to describe it.

[enigma000]

10. pity the Germans didn't win the war, eh?

Would the world be so much better? Or if the Soviet Union won the Cold War?

[MikeyJones]

12. Think of it more this way - had Britain and France not crippled.....

Germany's economy -- would they have allowed that madman in power in the first place?

Especially given Hitler was ONLY elected because he promised to restore Germany to its past pre-WW1 greatness when it was actually more like Britain is today in terms of a constitutional monarchy than Britain was at that time when the British monarchy was in the middle of a quasi-power struggle with parliment?

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. "the British monarchy was in the middle of a quasi-power struggle

with parliment?" Sorry, what period are you talking about - 1640s, 1680s? The last possible period you might be referring to is the 1780s, when the aftermath of American independence firmly established that Parliament was in charge of Britain, and the monarch just a figurehead. So what has that to do with WW1 or Hitler? Before WW1, the monarchy in Germany had far more power than the monarchy in Britain.

As for what happened to the German economy, it was France that insisted on the crippling reparations, not Britain. Here's an independent view from 1922:

However, despite the great ability of the British bourgeoisie to adapt itself, and despite its stubborn efforts to win back the world market, it has become clear that, in the conditions created by the Versailles peace treaty, Britain cannot flourish. Such a highly industrialised country as Britain cannot exist unless the economies of Germany and Russia are restored. Here the interests of Britain and France violently clash: Britain wants to sell its goods to Germany, but this is prevented by the Versailles peace treaty; France wants to squeeze huge sums out of Germany as compensation for war losses, but this threatens to destroy German purchasing power. Hence Britain favours a reduction of reparations, while France is carrying on an undercover war against Britain in the Near East to compel greater flexibility on the question of reparations. While the British proletariat, through the unemployment affecting millions of workers, is shouldering the burden of the war, the British bourgeoisie continues to make new deals with the French bourgeoisie – at the expense of Germany.

Fourth Congress of the Communist International

[MikeyJones]

49. Bullshit

Britain went along with France like a little brother following his suicidal brother off a bridge. Germany had a "parliment"(I'm sorry but I don't know the name) who met in the Reichstag. The Social Democratic party was the main opposition in "parliment" to the king. King Edward(who I believe was the limey king at the time) was one of the strongest supporters and helped carry out war orders for his Imperial army. That's what I'm talking about him having more power. I've read in several WW1 books to where he had considerable power and influence during the war. Whereas the Kaiser's powers during the war were more a symptom of the war than something that had existed before hand. It's the old "rally around the flag, rally around the king/president" feeling. People for some sad reason tend to blindly trust their leaders during times of war.

Your assessment of the royal monarch in Britain being just a figurehead in 19th Century life sounds a bit like revisionist Anglophile history to me. They want Britain to look like some kind of an Americanesque quasi-democracy where the people had some say in their lives when really everybody knew they did not inbetween massarcres they committed against the Irish.

[malaise]

6. They will never be vindicated

Too many people do not know the truth about Britain's role in the mess on planet earth today.

[MikeyJones]

16. re:

"They will never be vindicated Too many people do not know the truth about Britain's role in the mess on planet earth today."


Tell me about it. Anglophile history texts from the late 19th Century all the way into probably the 70s described British massacres of native peoples as "battles." A very cute way to write off genocide. What a "battle" typically consisted of was a bunch of brave warriors with spears and swords and arrows charging en-masse against a line of cowardly Limeys who subsequently mowed them down with what at the time was high tech artillery and machine gun fire.

Read about the Amritsar Massacre where a tea-sucking motherfucker mowed down over a thousand of unarmed Indian men, women, and children. The officer was given the name "The Butcher of Amritsar." Instead of hanging the racist bastard they let him retire and then gave him a comfortable living with a military pension. Virtually awarding his crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_Massacre

And here's some more about British Imperialism in Egypt:

http://www.logoi.com/notes/battle_or_massacre.html


When they answer for their crimes and pay the peoples they exploited then I say let them back into the international community in a very cautious way the same as Germany and Japan were after the were.

[truebrit71]

19. Seriously, get over it....

...and then go take a flying fuck at the moon...

You are so fucking ignorant, and so fucking one-track-minded you are blind to the truth of the times you discuss....

What's your deal pal? Did you just see 'Gandhi' for the first time and got your nappy in a bunch?

Shit happened, get over it...

Unless you happen to live in a country that is without blemish throughout it's history you have nothing to talk about...

[truebrit71]

20. Yeah the Brits did it all....and 9/11 is Clinton's fault....

...what stunning ignorance....

[whistle]

8. Plenty of imperialistic ambitions were involved during the past...

...ninety years. Here is a three part series titled: "Imperialism and Iraq: Lessons from the past"

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/iraq-m29.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/irq2-m30.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/irq3-m31.shtml

[Skink]

9. Britain eventually bankrupted itself through wars of imperialism...

kind of like the path the U.S. is on today.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Actually, when they drew the borders it was done with careful

regard as to who was within what borders.

As they did everywhere, they drew the borders to fracture existing social structures, splitting ethnic groups to weaken their power, and turning the governance of the new colony over to a strong minority, which can only stay in power by supporting the Empire. Disenfranchise the majority, and make the minority dependent upon them. That's why there are Pashtuns in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. They made them the impotent majority in one, and the ruling minority in the other. They did this in virtually every colony, which guaranteed that there would never be a successful transfer of power from the Empire to the locals. They always confidently predicted that the transfer of power would be easy, because of the British schooling of the leadership class, but every time it ended in disaster and, usually, dictatorship because of the imperial policies of the British government.

The riches of Africa are plundered by kleptocracies as a result of British colonialism. The ongoing Arab/Israeli conflict can be traced directly to British policies.

It would do us well to remember that we are living in an era of imperial collapse, no less earthshaking than the collapse of the Roman Empire -- and the repercussions from that lasted for hundreds of years. The US system of military bases across the world is a direct copy of the British Empire's global influence, and while we may not directly rule those other countries our influence over them cannot be overestimated. We are the Goths, settling in the ruins of Rome, and we are speeding toward the dark ages.

[MikeyJones]

22. Damn good point

Forgive me for not even realizing that. They PURPOSELY carved up people groups into "colonies" and let the people kill eachother to take the attention away from the people who they should have been really killing -- they Anglo slave masters.

[genie_weenie]

46. So, the best thing to do is to take it out on the

people living on the English Isles Today, right? Kill and Rob from them, makes it "Fair"...

[MikeyJones]

50. Hate to say it, but yes

German companies and the German government(which wasn't even the same one as the one with Hitler) are still to this day paying monetary reprations for the Holocaust so why can't the Anglos inconvienence themselves a bit and pay the pied piper for their nation's crimes like the Germans and the Japanese have done for the past 50 years.(that's another rabbit trail I don't want to get started on)

If the Anglo economy and its cushy rich Western style of living is based upon billions in stolen foriegn currency and precious metals I say give it back to its rightful owners. After all -- you don't allow stolen property to be willed to one's children just because said person died do you?

[Name removed]

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[truebrit71]

65. We'll do it right after the US pays slave reparations...

...and gives back all of the land that was stolen from the Native Americans and the Mexicans...

Deal?

:eyes:

[MadHound]

15. A bit of a disagreement in regards to your premise

First of all, if Britain hadn't become an imperialistic power, we would still have had to clean up an imperlialistic mess of some flavor or another. The era of colonialism wasn't simply a British era, other countries, notably France and Germany, were also making imperialistic inroads into Asia and Africa. Power abhors a vacumn, and if Britain wasn't going to fix boundaries after WWI, then it would have been some other country.

And yes, the US would have still been in Iraq, no matter what Britain would or wouldn't have done. Oil is at the bottom of the mess over there, has been for decades. And if Britain had never conquered Iraq, we would still be there for the oil. The US isn't in Iraq or the ME to clean up the messes left by yesteryears imperial adventures. We are there for on simple reason, greed. The current administration isn't altruistic enough to repair the damage done by imperialism, they are simply there to seize what they can at the barrel of a gun.

[enigma000]

17. Would the Commonwealth exist if member states hated

their former colonial masters?

Many of the countries with a Britannic history are doing well - of the 15 countries (over the population of 4 million) with the highest GNP per capita, 4 are former British colonies and the UK (USA #3, Ireland #4, Canada #7, Australia #14, UK #14)

Do Indians begrudge their time in the British Raj? Sure they are thankful for independence, but they inherited many of the institutions that make that country relatively peaceful and stable (at least in comparison to the neighborhood) Germany and Japan were remade in the Anglo/American image after the war, they seem to be doing well.

Compare occupation under the empires of the French (vietnam, algeria), Belgians (the Congo) or the Soviets (eastern Europe).

[Mass_Liberal]

18. ...

er... ya, Colonialism was bad. Yes, it has caused many of the problems of today. Yes, Britain was a colonial power. One of many. The British don't need to "answer for their Imperialist, racist past" any more than France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands or any other European country. Or Japan or China for that matter.

To ask a people to give up their standard of living because their country historically took advantage of others is completely moronic. Using this train of logic, the entire first world, and plenty of nations outside of the first world, would have to give up their standard of living. History isn't pretty. Countries with power don't play nicely with others. This is universal, be it Colonialist Britain, the United States, or the Aztecs.

I don't think Texans on this board would think that their property should be confiscated and given back to Mexico. Descendents of slave owners shouldn't have to give up all their money to the nearest Black family. We can't help who our parents are, or what our history is. All we can do is try to go forward and conduct ourselves in a more admirable way than our ancestors. For the most part modern Britain has done that.

[MikeyJones]

21. And to be honest -- why do you speak English any way??

For all those conservatives bitching about immigrants speaking "foreign languages" within the United States -- last time I fucking checked English was spoken by people from England.

So why are we speaking a foreign language? Shouldn't we make up our own language and our own culture instead of having to borrow our culture from Europe?

[MadHound]

23. Ummm, we do speak our own language, and indeed have our own culture

The English spoken in American is far from the language spoken in Britain. In fact given some of the more intense dialects of both countries, there is very, very little relating the two. Same about culture. Glaring, obvious differences in the two cultures, from sports to music to art to even how we approach life in general.

I think that your anti-British sentiment is leading you to over generalize too much.

[MikeyJones]

27. Not really

We still speak English. The only difference is a few u's after o's here and there and the fact we don't share their weird slang system. But we do speak the same language. Differences in dialects do not constitute speaking a different language. That would be like saying that people in Western England aren't English because they speak a different dialect than the people in Eastern England.

I say we in the Americas scrap French, English, and Spanish and opt for our own language. A language and a culture of our own.

The only people on here who are calling me names are the little Anglophiles and their friends who still want to think that America is Europe's cultural child when it is anything but.

[MadHound]

37. Sure we do

:eyes:

Have you ever visited Britain, Wales, Scotland, Ireland? I think that you would find that the English spoken there is a hell of a lot more different than "few u's after o's here and there and the fact we don't share their weird slang system." If you would do just a little etymological study, you would find that American English is a conglomerate of many languages, British English, German, French, African tribal languages, and much, much more. It is distincly different from the English spoken in Britain.

And your suggestion about scrapping our language and culture are, quite frankly ludicrous at this stage in the game. It isn't doable, since the vast majority of people will still continue to speak American English and continue to revel in American culture.

And frankly I don't care who is calling you names or why. I'm just really interested in how this thread on what's going on in Iraq, past and present, devolved into your little flame fest.

[MikeyJones]

52. Not quite as ludicrous as you might think

"And your suggestion about scrapping our language and culture are, quite frankly ludicrous at this stage in the game. It isn't doable, since the vast majority of people will still continue to speak American English and continue to revel in American culture."

Right now we have huge numbers of angry disenfranchized latinos in America who refuse to speak the Anglo language and still speak their imperialist-imposed Spanish sadly.

As for your claim about people continuing to speak American English and reveling in American culture -- you might want to think otherwise. Whites and blacks(the main speakers of the English language in this country) will be a minority in America in a mere 50 years. Latinos and Asians will make up the majority and will speak the language they have been taught from birth.

I know 4th generation latino-Americans who can't speak English above a few sentences. And frankly, I don't see any reason why they should stoop themselves to becoming "Uncle Tomas"s just to satisfy their rich white employers. Wait until white people are the majority in America and see how fast English burns up.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. You should change your name, then.

'Michael Jones'...you're not Welsh, right? So why have a Welsh name? Why have a European name, for that matter? Why not call yourself something more 'American-sounding'...maybe rip off Indian naming customs, since you've got such a down on Europe, and call yourself 'Great Wind Between Ears'?

[truebrit71]

42. "Great wind between ears".....LOL!!!!

Absolutely classic!!!


:rofl:

[MikeyJones]

53. "MikeyJones" is simply a screenname.....

I apologize but for privacy reasons I can't disclose my non-Anglo name.

[Mass_Liberal]

24. what a moron.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[MikeyJones]

31. Low post count?

What does that have to do with being anti-Imperialist?

[truebrit71]

32. Absolutley nothing....and everything to do with you being a....

...trolling wanker....

[MikeyJones]

30. Don't take this the wrong way.....

But anybody from New ENGLAND doesn't exactly have impartiality in this debate. lol

[truebrit71]

33. And which perfect country do you live in?

..

[The2ndWheel]

25. Not sure why you're picking on only the British

Not that I don't agree.

"kept billions from advancing and enjoying the same standard of living we enjoy in the west because of all the assets and resources stolen by the British."

But we wouldn't have that standard if the west hadn't done the imperial conquest thing. Nobody is enjoying this standard of living without the use of force.

Might I suggest looking up Jared Diamond? He talks about geography(and all the factors involved in it) and how that might be the only reason the Aztecs(or any other empire that was colonized by European powers) weren't the ones coming over to Europe to do the conquering.

[cigsandcoffee]

26. They do have a lot to answer for, alright.

Much of our early Iran policy was designed by the British, for instance. And their record in China certainly added years to the cooling of animosity between them and the West.

[AngryAmish]

28. Look at the blight that is Singapore

Or the horror of New York and Hong Kong.

[genie_weenie]

34. It's good we have

those Damn Brits to blame en masse because shit I can't think of any other Nation-State which has ever done anything. In fact I think this all started when those Evil British Folks invented the Compass and sailed from their accursed Island to conquer the Globe!

And thank goodness we don't have to have a nuanuced look at the history of the world! I mean why not hold the ENTIRE British People as guilty, everyone knows that those Chimney Sweeps of London in the late 1800s were stealing the wealth of Mayalasia! After all the Leaders of those Evil People were doing exactly what every single British Person has always wanted to do. Rape, Pillage and Molster the peace loving peoples of the world.

This post is right up there with the detailed world view espoused by some of the leading members of the * Regime.

[leftofthedial]

38. don't pull your punches

tell us how you really feel

[mr blur]

40. So it's our fault that your countrymen are torturing and slaughtering

Iraqis? Thanks for the clarification. Without your mighty brain we might have mistakenly thought otherwise.

By the way, when does your country get to apologise for its "Imperialist, racist" present?

You are a shithead.

[cigsandcoffee]

43. Er... I think the UK has been slaughtering some Iraqis, as well.

Or have I not been keeping up?

[truebrit71]

44. Yup, the Brits ran Abu Ghraib, and were responsible for Haditha...and

... and used chemical weapons against civilians....oh, wait....


Let's make sure you apportion blame correctly eh? ;-)

[cigsandcoffee]

47. Right. The Brits have just been there smooching on the Iraqis.

lol.

Britain has centuries of blood on its hands. Centuries. If it were my country, I'd be very ashamed of those sins the way I am of America's. I'd still love my country (as I do America), but I'd be amazed at just how much bloodshed and violence could be traced back to British expansion and Colonialism.

Indeed. Much to answer for.

[truebrit71]

48. I'm not surprised. I actually paid attention in history classes...

..and as has been mentioned in other posts here Great Britain was not the only European country involved....

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

[malaise]

56. Clearly you read history texts

written by the defenders of British Imperialism. I lived through British imperialism and your primary contribution to the planet was to divide, rule and plunder. Then you knighted your thiefing Brits.

As Bob Marley says - Old pirates yes they rob I.

[truebrit71]

60. Uh-huh...

When was this, in the late 18th century perhaps?

As Bob Marley said - Man I'm stoned....

[Bitter Cup]

61. Perhaps we should throw some stones at everyone equally

The Sins of Empires should be discussed and criticized. We just need to understand that no one nation has the corner on that market. Britain, Germany, France, the US, etc all need a serious slap upside the head for their history and we need to make sure that it is something we don't allow to continue in the future...and something we obviously need to put a stop to in the present.

[truebrit71]

62. A point that the rocket scientist that started this little Anglo-hate fest

...constantly ignores...

What, we don't have enough things to pay attention to in the US, we have to make up fake goddamnded fights as well??? :eyes:

[MikeyJones]

55. I couldn't help but notice the Irish flag......

I always enjoy conversations with Irish people living in the London area. Frequently they have become "Uncle Toms" themselves trying to conform and adapt to Anglo culture but no matter how hard they try they always fail. It's sad given their history and their exploitation at the hands of their Anglo masters.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[MikeyJones]

54. If I remember correctly.....

had your countrymen not mindlessly carved up Iraq without regard for the people who lived their and for their wishes and for the extremely unstable political situation that the world inherited upon their pseudo-independence. Not we're dealing with borders that should never have been drawn in the first place and that could have saved the world a whole shitload of problems had Britain not drawn the map the way they did simply to steal as much oil as possible while leaving the "Iraqi" people poor and destitude while the rich Anglos robbed them of their main capital-producing resource.

[truebrit71]

58. WHICH PERFECT COUNTRY DO YOU LIVE IN?

ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION.

[WHAT]

51. I'm glad you said this...

I have become very suspicious of UK and europe wrt action vs words...

Case in point...Lebanon/Israel. Sentiment displays concern/empathy...but, Israel is just a tiny country (OK bigger than Lebanon, but) American policy is targeted, while, Israel could be isolated a lot easier than Turkey (by UK Europe) but never is. I think the whole thing is like one of those rubber balls attached to a paddle by elastic string...fragile and amusing, an amusement and a distraction. It wouldn't take much to isolate Israel and direct discussion, but it never happens. Why? I think American policy might be complicit with european intentions...playing good guy and bad guy while aiming for the same goal. Kind of a similar thing is happening in Washington state wrt Anwar and Maria Cantwell's defense thereof; I suspect a small point of contention might be gracefully conceded in order that the "defender" is over-looked while furthering more important agenda.

I do suspect that those that squeak the loudest may be enabling the very actions that they protest (on a minor point) sic. UK, Europe, and the middle east. The power players are those with money and power, not Israel, however she is portrayed or leveraged; she just couldn't stand-up to a sincere effort of restraint...later, she might be the scape-goat when marketing efforts try to pry open the psyche and coalesce the consumer soul that they anticipate in the middle east.

Well, this might be my conspiracy of the day, but; NO, I don't trust the UK or Europe in these machinations. The BBC resembles too much the intent of PBS and NPR even though the style is different.

I don't really think it will work, anyway...I wish I could live long enough to see a new form of banking that could change the rules on enterprise. By the way, China has some interesting ways of organizing money, creative. Who knows?.

[sweetheart]

59. well ain't that rich

I cannae say what you think you're gonna acomplish with an anglo bash, given the anglo
worship of the culture where most educated americans are very familiar with shakespeare,
led zepplin, the beatles, the who, the rolling stones, pink floyd, stanley kubrick,
monty python and the other benighted agents of an empire reborn in media.

"the englishman's burden" is carried now by america, and everything you hate is inside
you already. It is after all, just like Arthur Andersen and Andersen Consulting. The
former is the parent of the latter, and the former got taken down by enron, whilst the latter
has been making money hand over fist whilst dumping all the karma on the parent... much
like your rant coming from an american, just a tad rich.

[LanternWaste]

64. Read Paul Kennedy's, 'The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers'

Read Paul Kennedy's, 'The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers' and then get back to us...

[unhappycamper]

66. This flame-fest is now

locked.