Forbes Reporter Wives vs Prostitutes - like Coke vs Pepsi?

[OzarkDem]

If you liked Noer's recent column on bad marriages and career women, you'll just love his earlier article comparing working women, wives and prostitutes. He seems to feel that wives and whores are not like Coke vs Pepsi, but more like champagne vs beer.

Not sure where he thinks he's going with this one, except possibly to promote the idea that successful career men should patronize prostitutes instead of getting married.

Its truly shocking to see a young person in the US with this kind of backward mentality. Is this the fruit of many years of Rush's propaganda?

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/2006/02/11/economics-prostitution-marriage_cx_mn_money06_0214prostitution.html

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. So why are you givin 'em free press? Sheesh

Just ignore the PR stunt, please! Don't give the site click-throughs and raise their revenue.

[OzarkDem]

7. I suppose we should be polite ladies and ignore this?

No thanks. Its better to expose this garbage and refute the arguments loudly.

As someone who grew up in the 70's as a feminist, I'm very disappointed to see the revival of this kind of misogyny. It shouldn't be allowed to go unanswered.

[orpupilofnature57]

11. Your speaking to women that promote misogynists, Right?

[OzarkDem]

22. Clarify please? n/t

[Fredda Weinberg]

16. You're giving 'em what they want

My response to that article is a satisfying career and happy relationships. I don't respond, Pavlovian fashion, to every Veronica waved in my face.

Our response, if you must have one, should be to complain to Forbes advertisers, advising them that we'll avoid their products if they continue to support publication of articles that insult half the population.

[OzarkDem]

21. Everyone responds in their own way

The key is to respond and brand it for what it is, an attempt to turn the clock back.

We wouldn't have any problem with objecting to a similar aritcle if it were aimed at blacks or other racial minorities. Women deserve as much respect and protection of their rights.

Keeping a low profile doesn't help educate younger women that this kind of talk isn't acceptable.

[orpupilofnature57]

2. Ann Coldterd,Paula Zain, and that bitch from Florida are sending a message

to the female youth of our country.

[Nobody]

14. And that message includes

That the rules they lay down apply to all women except themselves. My response to women like Ann Coulter, Laura Schlessinger, Laura David, Marabel Morgan, Phyllis Schlafly, Beverly LeHaye (yes that LeHaye) is this: You first, ladies. Lead by example. If you want women to quit their jobs, and put hubby first and let him make all decisions for you, you must go first. That means stop writing columns, no more radio shows, and your husbands must pick up your ball and carry it.

Remember the Handmaid's Tale where Serena Joy was just like them. She hated having to live by the same rules as all of the other women.

[Warpy]

3. It is, Rush plus Hefner

and the mentality that no mere woman will ever tame HIM, no sir!

Every generation produces its share of men who feel this superior not only to women but to men who marry and raise families. Read "Pygmalion" by Shaw. He described them pretty well through a speech by Higgins back in the Victorian era.

If they do marry, they're like Newtie and consider women to be property, to be discarded at will and exchanged for younger models when they start to look a little shabby after years of unpaid servitude.

I have no clue why Forbes is giving this unformed young male so much time and space. His writing should be restricted to men's magazines, which is where this rubbish belongs and usually sells well.

[Berry Cool]

5. Actually, that article is good for a laugh.

It seems the economists were originally conducting their study to determine the answer to the age-old question "Why do hookers make so much money?"

Well, duh. I could have given them the answer to that.

Women who will do anything--or a particular thing, at least, that a man wants--sexually, to any man who asks for it, can command a pretty high price for their services because most of the women in the world will not do anything a man wants to any man who asks for it.

And there are a lot of men out there who want that kind of service.

Supply and demand, people. Supply and demand. And I never got past Econ 101!

[Matariki]

20. I know a pro-dom who commands $1000 a night

for putting a man in a crib and diapers. You know the only men that can afford that are men like the Forbes writer and his audience.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

4. This is disturbing. An analysis of the "value" of a wife vs. a prostitute

Complete with this statement (IOW, wives are unable to perform as well as prostitutes, sexually, WTF?)

Notwithstanding Jerry Hall's quip when she was married to Mick Jagger, about being "a maid in the living room and a whore in the bedroom," one normally cannot be both a wife and a whore.

After some more incredibly misogynistic drivel, this stunning conclusion to the article:

Still, the economic analysis of marriage explains one age-old phenomenon: gold digging.

"In particular, does our analysis justify the popular belief that more beautiful, charming and talented women tend to marry wealthier and more successful men?" wrote Becker. His answer: "A positive sorting of nonmarket traits with nonhuman wealth always, and with earnings power, usually, maximizes commodity output over all marriages."

In other words, yes, supermodels do prefer aging billionaires. And Gary Becker proved it mathematically decades before The Donald married Melania.

:eyes: MKJ

[cornermouse]

6. Same old story.

Men get older, they dump the wife because she's old and the babies ruined her figure so that they can go out and find someone young and gorgeous to take her place. .

[Warpy]

8. Meanwhile, they are oblvious to the workload

a wife assumes once the honeymoon is over. They honestly believe that their clothing breeds in the closets, that labor saving devices actually save labor, that everything they need to sustain life appears by magic. And all that is if there are no children produced.

All they think about is the "value" of being supplied with sex.

[Boojatta]

9. Would there be a Church of England if that never happened?

A hear that a certain Pope refused to grant a divorce to a certain monarch.

[Zensea]

10. Go read Mrs. Warren's Profession

by George Bernard Shaw.
In particular, read the introduction.
I'm relatively sure that the writer of the Forbes article doesn't look at it this way, but there is a marxist/socialist argument which says that marriage is institutionalized prostitution.
That's the argument Shaw makes.
One aspect of it is that as long as women make 60% of what men make, then the economic system "forces" a form of prostitution on them to make up the difference.
Marriage being one such form.

[orpupilofnature57]

12. Excellent, not to mention media bombardment, controlling sense of worth

[Nikia]

13. How do they explain smart, attractive women who aren't prostitues

Who make more than their husbands.
I forgot. That's why men aren't supposed to marry "career women".
The thing is that men like the author would be the first to complain about a wife that went to work and was successful in her career and left him when he became unemployed or underemployed when he finally found a job even though his line of reasoning would make such a decision reasonable for such a woman.
I am shocked by these articles. Although I always believed that Forbes was a conservative magazine, I had no idea that it spewed misogynistic crap until these past couple weeks.

[orpupilofnature57]

17. The face of " Friendly Fascism " can do that.

[natrat]

15. article is weird cuz author is careful not to state his own opinion much

[Nikia]

18. Well, I wrote papers like that in college (as far as stating opinion)

He let the "experts" state is opinion for him. It makes it seems like his thesis is fact or at least an opinion supported by the "experts".

[Retired AF Dem]

19. My wife is a career woman

If I remember correctly the last time she initiated sex was in March of 1988. I think we have had sex five times from 88-06. Don't get me wrong, I love her to death, but there are times I think about straying even though I'm a bit overweight and balding and don't think anybody else would want me anyway. Life sucks.

[Matariki]

23. That sucks

Instead of straying, have you considered whether you need to work on your <ahem> skills?

A lot of women become disinterested in sex when their partners don't know how to find the, um, sensitive parts, or don't approach sex with any imagination, or don't have much regard for the woman's pleasure once they're 'finished'.

Women tend to not want to hurt their man's feelings by letting him know he isn't so good in bed and unfortunately never communicate what would do it for them. Instead they slowly shut down their sex drive over the years.

I'm not saying that's what is going on in your situation.

ps - as far a improving skills, it goes both ways. It's difficult to broach these subjects, because it means saying you're dissatisfied with a very personal part of the relationship. But communication is ESSENTIAL. Instead of approaching it as "you don't have sex with me enough and i sometimes think of straying", approach it as "how can we improve our sex life?" This gives her a chance to tell you the things she wants as well. I understand that it's not an easy thing to do, it's very difficult for people to articulate what they want sexually, it's not easy for people to hear that they haven't been satisfying their partner. It's worth the effort though, it can save a relationship and bring both people lots of happiness.

[treestar]

25. There could be other issues on the marriage that have gone unaddressed

or even the wife having health problems

Sounds like counseling is good. There are women who have aversions to sex, etc., now there is both counseling and pharmaceutical treatment.

[Matariki]

26. Agreed.

I didn't mean to imply that mediocre sex was the ONLY thing that would bring about disinterest. I just think it's something that doesn't occur to some men as ever being a possible problem.

Counseling is a great place to have the sorts of communication needed to improve couple's sex lives.

[Syncronaut Seven]

27. Get over your hangup about oral sex

I've never seen this advice go wrong. Never underestimate the value of multiple screaming orgasms. :evilgrin:

Bring this book home:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1885535678/sr=8-3/qid=1156700880/ref=sr_1_3/002-9838314-3583225?ie=UTF8

Let your wife find it after you've read a couple chapters. Thank me later. :hippie:

[converted_democrat]

53. Best advice I've seen on the thread.. n/t

[Generic Other]

24. Last time I compared Laura Bush to a prostitute

Skinner deleted my thread! Guess I should have written an article for Forbes.

[Porcupine]

28. Read any personal ads lately? Evidence supports the cash value

of romantic relationships theory. Sorry to say but I'm a single guy with a bad work history due to several back injuries. I expect that aside from "professional" help I'm not getting laid anytime soon. (which means never) It just doesn't matter that I'm liberal, a former chef, trained masseur, educated, gardener, etc. etc, etc.. No cash, no date. In my case it meant no marriage.

Men's experience supports the mythology that women are EXTREMELY cash conscious when choosing a partner. Go into a bar and on of the first things a woman will ask in conversation is "what do you do for work?" (read how much money can I expect to get from you). This DOES NOT CHANGE at a Sierra Club singles event.

Sorry ladies but your protests do not pass the smell test in male liberal circles. We've all met wealthy A-holes on their 4th wife. We all know really nice guys who are broke and single. We've all had the conversation with the professional, liberal, woman who complains about the "shortage" of men. And we all understand that she means "shortage of men who make more than me not occupied with another gold digger."


:rant:

[Matariki]

29. Sorry dude

I've dated plenty of guys who were unemployed when I first met them (current partner included). And I'm a catch. Perhaps there's more to it than a lack of cash than you're willing to admit to yourself? I've known guys who are deadly dull and without an iota sexual charisma who love to tell themselves the myth about women never liking 'nice guys'. You one of them?

[Porcupine]

31. Yah, right. Broke guys are just ugly and arent' interesting......

to talk to. We just cant' relate to your ski vacations and can't talk about cruises and trips to Cancun at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

Funny how that goes out the window when the guy is loaded. Ever seen Bill Gates give an interview? Seen his wife? There's a man with a fascinating "personality."

[Matariki]

33. Bill Gates IS an interesting person

I've seen him speak in person when I worked at Microsoft, he was funny and articulate. Nor do I think Linda Gates was a 'gold-digger'. But that's beside the point. I dated a guy who was unemployed and dumpster diving when I met him, he was also overweight. But he was smart and interesting and good in the sack. The guy I'm with now was unemployed when I met him. He's very attractive and utterly fascinating.

You just keep telling yourself it's all about your income and how all women are only interested in a guy's money. It's very charming. Sure it makes you a barrel of laughs to spend time with.

[Nikia]

30. I don't know you or the dating scene in your area

Some of it might have to do with the area you live in, probably more common in urban areas where people know a much lower percentage of people who they encounter. It might have to do with the type of women who you are attracted to, like women who focus on superficial success who may coincidently (or not) be the ones most likely to look like models or women who might have a good reason to seek financial stability in their lives. It may also have something to do with the way you present yourself and talk to women, like you may act inferior and like you don't deserve to date decent women or may appear like a gold digger yourself.
You also shouldn't always assume that a woman asking what you do for a living means that she is most interested in your bank account. Some people seem to think that work is a major part of one's life and therefore a good question to ask in getting to know someone.
My sister and I have never been gold digger types. We are both angry with our mother for marrying a financially well off guy who she hadn't known very long who turned out to be a terrible guy.

[Porcupine]

32. Blame the guy. Good job. Care to respond to my post?

y'know the part about personal ads. Dig through them and you will find woman after woman who specify they want a man that makes $50K ++. Some of the real pretty ones specify $100K plus. They all LOVE to travel and some of them like horses too.

Income is an issue. Well off men are hunted; people write books on how to do it. Deal with it.

[Matariki]

34. It's pretty obvious from your posts that your income isn't the problem

You seem pretty hostile toward women, which is probably a HUGE red flag to women with any self respect. If a couple stupid classifieds makes you come to the conclusion that 'all women are the same' you are either stupid, making excuses for your short-comings, or just hated women to start with.

I doubt anything I say is going to open your eyes though, so whatever.

[Porcupine]

36. Yap, the myth startted with me. How does that apply?

For starters: I am employed as a maintenance manager for a property management firm. Which makes it REALLY icky for me to date anyone I meet through work. Totally off limits. I make just over the median income for my area.

I never said "all women are the same;" I inferred that income is a very large consideration that women have in choosing their mate. I suggested looking at personal ads, online and off, as a means of evaluating the premise.

YOU attacked my personal life. I only referred to my personal life to say that given the choice between prostitution and celibacy I'm taking the later. Since you don't know me I must assume that "blame the guy" psychology is in action here. You wouldn't happen to be a shrink of some kind would you?

This isnt' about me or you; it should be about understanding how women and men choose mates. Since each of us is a sample size of one our experience is a limited measure.

[Matariki]

38. correct me if i'm wrong

but in the post i first responded to, you said: "Sorry to say but I'm a single guy with a bad work history due to several back injuries. I expect that aside from "professional" help I'm not getting laid anytime soon. (which means never) It just doesn't matter that I'm liberal, a former chef, trained masseur, educated, gardener, etc. etc, etc.. No cash, no date. In my case it meant no marriage."

That sounds very much like you are blaming your lack of a relationship or sex on your financial situation.

You also said: "We've all had the conversation with the professional, liberal, woman who complains about the "shortage" of men. And we all understand that she means "shortage of men who make more than me not occupied with another gold digger."

"We" don't all "understand" that's what she means. Your words speak for themselves. If you can't see what's wrong with that statement, well too bad for you.

I know many, many women who are not interested first and foremost in the income of the men they are dating. People often want to put the blame outside themselves, on some mythical generality, than face their own short-comings. Like the person who also posted in reply to you said there are plenty of men who make less than $50k a year who are married. There are plenty of unemployed men who are married or dating. You are just making stuff up.

[Porcupine]

40. unemployed men dating?

There are unemployed men dating; they are college age or retired. Possibly in some other contexts but not likely. A guy has better luck living with his mother than trying to date while jobless.

Again read the personals. "You must have a job" or some variation is seen repeatedly in women's posts. It's not present in mens. Womens criteria for expected income will also more often cite an income range greater than their own. Most men simply list "any" on the income qualification.

These women are speaking for themselves. Income is a large consideration in the selection of their spouse regardless of political affiliation.

[bicentennial_baby]

47. again, get away from the g'damn personals!

:eyes: How about meeting some *real* women, in real life? :)

[bicentennial_baby]

46. You're generalizing....

"I inferred that income is a very large consideration that women have in choosing their mate."

Sorry, but you do not have a clue about women. End of story. Trust me, I am one.

[Nikia]

35. There will be more superficialities in certain environments

My sister, who currently lives in Chicago, complains about people who she knows that are superficial when it comes to dating. She complains about both women whose goal it is to marry the richest guy possible and guys whose goal it is to marry the most beautiful woman as possible. She knows friends who have been hurt by both kinds of people, dumped for someone richer or more attractive and being even told that was the reason. We grew up in a smaller area where people knew a much greater percentage of people who they encountered and people didn't act much like that.
Personal ads are impersonal and anonymous. Since a person might receive hundreds of responses, they might choose to be picky in the criteria they set. There are also usually many ads and people should be picky about which ads they respond to. Since you have been discouraged by women being interested in money and don't have much, you would choose not to respond to ads seeking a minimum money requirement as might some men who actually have money but find such attitudes distasteful.
Women who look like models are more likely to be intested in superficialties than other women (no offense to DU women who look like models). Their appearance (something superficial) is really important to them. While I think that most women prefer not to look like slobs, it generally takes a lot of time and money to look stereotypcially attractive. Women that choose to spend that time and money might have different priorities than women who don't.
What do you think of women who are married to lower class men? Many male janitors, fast food workers, retail cashiers, and low level factory workers are married. If all women married only men who made above $50,000 per year, these men wouldn't be married.
Do you have certain socioeconomic standards? Would you date a woman who could not afford to have
her hair and nails done professionally regularly? What about make up? What about not being a
college graduate? What if she made under $30,000 per year? What if she were a college student but her parents barely broke the poverty line? Women experience these issues too.

[Porcupine]

37. To be really clear about standards.

I know more than a few employed men in their 40's and 50's who are single. Their standards run to two sentances. 1) It would be nice to feel that we could enjoy/maintain conversations in the future. 2) It would be nice if the partner was about as attractive as me and still mutually attracted. Get both of those and the guys happy with his date. Personally I would add the qualifications that the woman be a reader and have some interest n the arts.

I have NEVER heard a guy say either "I love talking to her but her nails are a deal breaker." or "If she would just wear some more make up she could get my interest." Women tend to be overrepresented in the cities due to the availability of white collar jobs. Dating sucks for women in cities. Dating sucks for men in rural areas. Sorry about your sister.

[Kat45]

41. I always see men say that she must be attractive, and I've also

seen them say she must be blonde--criteria based on looks. I've also seen men, generally with high incomes, wanting a woman who also has a high income.

[bicentennial_baby]

45. Look for women outside of the personal ads, first tip

Um, join the real world...Jeebus, f'n christ on a cracker...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

51. Yeah and look at all the ones from men

Where they want women several years younger and want them to be thin. So what? All things being equal, you bet I'd prefer a millionaire over a window washer.

[lukasahero]

39. No complaints about the shortage of men from me

I married a wonderful liberal man who trades the "power" spot in our financial lives with me routinely (sometimes he makes more, sometimes its me.)

I think it was his lack of bitching about how horrible women are that attracted me to him. But hey, it might just work for you. :eyes:

[Blue_Tires]

43. i feel you, but

you can't afford to let cynicism affect your outlook on dating too much (believe me, i speak from experience)

[bicentennial_baby]

44. BULLSHIT

I declare utter BULLSHIT on this post...face it, you're bitter...Seek therapy, please.

"Men's experience supports the mythology that women are EXTREMELY cash conscious when choosing a partner. Go into a bar and on of the first things a woman will ask in conversation is "what do you do for work?" (read how much money can I expect to get from you). This DOES NOT CHANGE at a Sierra Club singles event."

Get a FUCKING life....and I am SO glad I'm "taken"....men like you are fucking unreal... :crazy:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

49. You know why don't you?

Because he ignores the majority of women everywhere he goes and heads straight for the "hottie". Most guys who complain like that have very conventional taste in women.

Here's a clue: If she's got lacquered nails, expensive highlights, and a boobjob - You probably can't afford her.

[bicentennial_baby]

50. ....

:applause:

You got it, yep :D

[mrreowwr_kittty]

48. Me dating a poor man is like you dating an obese woman

When I date an unemployed or under-employed guy, I get the same pitying looks and snickers from people that you'd get for being with someone heavy. You probably never realized that, did you?

It's wrong and it sucks but there it is. It's extremely hard for most of us to get past deeply entrenched expectations and look at the real person.

[Lilith Velkor]

52. Shortage of men who are not misogynists, actually.

All pretensions of liberalism aside, most of us can smell misogyny like a fart in a car.

[Jed Dilligan]

42. I can see how this theory holds...

...for men who can't give women sexual pleasure. And who are so disgusting in other ways that no woman wants them.