Lets talk about voting for war and Democrats a little

[madokie]

I don't feel the Dem's who voted on the resolution supposedly authorizing the bush* cabal to start bombing and killing the Iraqi citizens is the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. I don't think they thought the * cabal would actually go into Iraq as they did and I don't give the Dem's a passing grade on that. I personally thought the cabal would but that was just me. I am not going to use the one vote as a tie breaker or as a deciding factor in who I will vote for or stand behind, in other words my eyes have glassed over on that. Most of our Democratic representative in Congress are good people, I'm sure most take grafts and that is pretty much the way it is in Washington at this time and it is wrong but you know. We have to keep raising our voices in opposition to that but we also have to remember the Democratic Senators and Representatives will hear us whether they listen or not, at least they hear our voices. Without our voices being heard there is no chance for any meaningful changes to the status quo. So pretty much if they have a D by their name I will give them the benefit of the doubt up to and including the elections to regain the control of the house and senate. But from that point on all bets are off. This battle we are in won't end until we have righted our ship of state so to speak and not in just stopping the water from coming in.

[panader0]

1. To mix metaphors, we need to get the ship of state

back on it's feet. Anybody with a D by their name gets my vote too.

[madokie]

2. Without the control of the house and senate we can't even think of that

I want to see some real changes made so something like this shit stain of a pResident can never happen again under any circumstances. but first

[Hubert Flottz]

3. We need to stop the GOPers stampede over the cliff first OR

EVERYBODY in the country loses! We can round up the strays later, after the herd is safe...

[madokie]

7. a good way of putting it.

this is very trying times to say the least. What happens in the next few years will decide the fate of the country. We already know what the bush* cabal think of the constitution, its just a g-d piece of paper to them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. I'll be voting anti-war in '06 and '08.

I've been a registered Democrat since 1965, and with two exceptions, I've voted for the Dems on the ballot. I have no qualms about voting 3rd Party if the choice is between a Republican and Democrat who votes with the Republicans on serious issues like war. I can give a pass on some issues, hold my nose, and hope the part-time Democrat doesn't do too much damage if elected. But, some issues are beyond nose-holding.

“I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all.” - Thomas Jefferson

[Hubert Flottz]

9. "no qualms about voting 3rd Party "

If the two or three percent hadn't voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, there wouldn't be a war, or a pResident Bush. Can we afford to make a mistake like that again?

Not trying to blame anyone but, did the people who voted third party in 2000 see all this stuff coming because Nader drew two or three percent of the vote? How can you say that the democrats in congress had any better insight then, when they voted to TRUST BUSH on Iraq? WE WERE ALL LIED TO! ALL OF US! Your congress critters didn't see into the future any better than the third party voters did!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Well, one of my Dem senators still supports the occupation.

After she chose to "trust Bush on Iraq" and voted for the war. I don't, for a moment, buy the pathetic line that they were "lied to", "deceived", etc. If they are that naive and unaware, then they don't deserve to be in public office.

[madokie]

13. so taking that person out at this time would be the right thing to do

even if it means we don't regain the Senate. :banghead: I no bic

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. That will be up to the voters.

If she's unethical enough to vote for Republican issues and back Bush and loses votes because of it - blame her.

[madokie]

19. Not blaming anyone just wanting to discuss

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Okay then, waste your vote again and hand the country over to

the liars and thieves and killers in the GOP again. Each new PNAC/neocon horror, we are treated to each and every morning, when we turn on the TV or read the paper, is what is REALLY fucking pathetic. Karl Rove loves to divide our party. It's how he's been winning. AND IT'S THE ONLY WAY, that he can go on winning NOW!

NEVER in the history of this country...did the president of the United States of America, stand up in a state of the union speech and lie to congress and the country...the way Bush did! The GOP controlled congress has done NOTHING to hold Bush accountable for any crime he's committed so far. Is that what you want more of?

Look what Crazy Rick is doing in PA. Funding the third party guy to help himself win. If we don't stop this fucking train wreck, come November, the country is TOAST!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Take it up with the Dems who back Bush in Iraq.

Karl Rove isn't forcing the unscrupulous Dems to back Bush. Nor did he when they voted for the war.

My Dem senator certainly hasn't done anything to "hold Bush accountable for any crime..". Is that what you want more of?

Casey in PA has dug his own hole by not backing women's rights on choice giving some PA voters no alternative but to vote 3rd Party. Do you want more of the same Republican anti-choice policies?

[Hubert Flottz]

27. Don't come crying to me when you're paying $5.00 a gallon in...

December and your kids are on the way to Iran.

Edit...And Bush declares himself Fuhrer

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Ok. I won't.

But, don't come crying to me if the Dems win the congress and you're paying $5.00 a gallon and your kids are on their way to Iraq.

[Hubert Flottz]

29. I won't cause I won't be able to see you!

Have a nice life!

[madokie]

26. That is exactly how I feel, IMHO we have to stop the train first

then we can get our bearings but in the mean time stop the damn train wreck.

[kentuck]

5. You get what you settle for...

unfortunately.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. Why is it that *I* knew, and *you* knew, yet....

>>>>>I don't think they thought the * cabal would actually go into Iraq as they did and I don't give the Dem's a passing grade on that.>>>>

these seasoned professional public servants did *not* know?

It goes to the question of *judgment*.

I'm sorry, but if I have a choice between some one like Tasini, who opposed the war and someone like Clinton (ugh!) who made a carefully calculated decision to *support* it ( and *still* supports it! ) I'm going to to be strongly inclined to support the candidate who has demonstrated superior judgment on this issue.

Ditto the rest of the rubber stamp DEMS in congress.

Particularly those who *continue* to aid and abet .

[madokie]

8. I didn't intend to insinuate to vote for the incumbents

my intention is to retake the house and senate with the best qualified candidates as long as they are of the Democratic party. at this point another re:puke: or a green isn't getting us anywhere. So I will hold my nose a little longer and work to elect more dems no matter what.

[Smarmie Doofus]

15. Understood. OTOH, there are plenty of DEMS

>>>>as long as they are of the Democratic party. at this point another re :puke: or a green isn't getting us anywhere. So I will hold my nose a little longer and work to elect more dems no matter what>>>>>

representing solidly blue districts who have been *abysmal* on the war. I say, (metaphorically speaking) "off with their heads."

They have no serious GOP opponent and the only meaningful discussion of this issue will be in the context of a DEM primary fight.

Clinton is one such case. My Congressional rep., Elliot Engel,(NY CD17) is another pro-war freak being challenged by a better qualified ( as demonstrated by consistent opposition to the the Iraq catastrophe) DEM primary opponent ( community activist Jessica Flagg).

Elect DEMS, by all means. But let's get our house in order. No point in gettin' em elected if they don't stand for anything, seems to me.

[madokie]

23. this election we have to give some of them a pass

because it is imperative we retake at least one house or senate
I agree with you wholeheartedly

[INdemo]

10. What the Dems voted for was the authorization to go to war

Only if the UN inspectors were not allowed to finish their job..Once the vote was taken Bush ignored that and took the vote as a blanket authorization..The MSM of course backed up his authority but never mentioned the fact that there were strings attached.

[madokie]

11. Thats why I refuse to let the one vote sway me

to me framing it otherwise is what kkkarl and co want. makes their job easier, their job being at this point in time to keep their collective asses out of the slammer first and foremost

[MadHound]

14. Sorry, but if we continue to give Dems a pass

Then we will continue to watch them work against our interests, time and again. It isn't just one vote. Anybody could have predicted, and many, many people did both publicly and privately, what Bush would do as soon as the IWR was passed. No, it is the simple fact that these Dems failed completely to do their job, which is to represent the collective voice of their constituents.

During the run-up to the the IWR vote, messages to Senators and Congressmen were running 268-1 against the IWR. Millions of people, both worldwide and in this country were out in the streets screaming NO. Public polls overwhelming showed that the American public wanted to take NO action, including voting on the IWR, until the inspectors finished their job. Yet when the vote came down, the Dems failed us all, provided bi-partisan cover for Bush, and went against their constituents wishes and voted for the IWR. Sorry, they shouldn't get a pass.

And yes, it is only one vote. However time and again, the IWR, the Patriot Act, war budget after war budget, the bankruptcy bill, the prescription drug bill, on and on ad nauseum we have seen the Dems voting and acting like 'Pugs, or more accurately, filling the wishes of their corporate masters. And yet we should reward this behaviour with our vote? Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. If you don't hold these people responsible for their actions, they will continue to vote in the interests of their corporate masters, and ignore our wishes.

Sorry, no excuses, no passes, we have to hold these people responsible for their votes, especially a vote that has killed tens of thousands of people and cost this country trillions of dollars. Anything else is simply voting against our own interests.

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. Good to get all this in before history is completely written.

Nicely summarized.

[madokie]

18. Today the only chance of stopping this slide is to retake the house

and hopefully the senate, the only thing imho. You have to stop the bleeding first before the operation

[MadHound]

22. And that is the same meme I've been hearing for thirty plus years

Election after election, the excuses have gone on, "We have to take back the House. We have to retain control of the Senate. Unless we hold onto control of Congress, we can't make *any* sort of reform." And dutifully I've fallen for that bullshit, as have millions of other leftists and progressives. And what the hell do we have to show for it? A Congress that is less responsive to us more than ever. A Democratic party that has moved so far right that they make Goldwater look like a leftist. And a two party, same corporate master system of government that ignores the will of the people and insteads only pays attention to their corporate masters who feed them the money.

None of us, not you, not I can buy a represenative. However we can withhold our vote to show our displeasure. If we are going to hold our reps accoutable it is high time that we started withholding our vote. No bullshit, no excuses, none of that putting off for tommorrow. We've played that game for far too long now, and look where it has gotten us. NOW is the time, not tommorrow. Otherwise, we're going to continue to slip down that slope, and soon we won't have any options left.

[madokie]

24. explain to me today what that will do for the control of the house

and senate, today. I agree with you but now is not the time to draw a line in the sand. Our Country depends on us getting this one election of all elections right.

[MadHound]

30. And it is short term thinking like that which got us into this mess

More of the same won't get us out. It can't always be about today, Today, TODAY! We have got to start thinking long term, ten years down the road or more. How did the the 'Pugs become so dominant? They got buried time and again, yet here they are, large and in charge. Well it wasn't through the brunt of short term thinking, oh no. They laid the plans for long term success, sacrificing short term gains for long term power. And it worked! We have got to do the same thing, otherwise the party will continue to drift rightward, and we will have less power within it.

If now is not the time, when? If here is not the place, where? Our party, our country is suffering greatly under the two party/same corporate master system of government, and frankly our democracy is on life support. If we continue to put off the reforms we need to make in order to regain our government, pretty damn soon we won't be able to do anything, other than take to the streets in armed revolution, and frankly none of us wants that. Short term, two year, immediate gratification thinking has absolutely got to be sacrifices for solid, sensible, long term reform. And the time to start this is NOW, not tommorrow, not next year. Our country is on life-support, it is past time we started bringing it back to health.

[madokie]

31. You make good arguments and I give up

Its not about now, Its not about holding accountable, its about control of the house and senate, nothing more, nothing less.

[Hubert Flottz]

32. For what it's worth...I agree with you.

Now is not the time to test our theories...now is the time to take our country back from these monsters!

EDIT...we are running out of time and chances.

[madokie]

33. this november will be the last real chance we have without a lot

of blood and heartaches first.

[INdemo]

21. Most Democrats voted against

the Repukes Medicare bill and prescription drug plan but you do have a good point...There are all those other bills with the Why? I think the name of the game is those pet project's (the pork).Without these projects most Congressmen could not be re-elected.
Very few elected officials vote the will of their constituents.
They vote for the will of their campaign check book balance.Check out the number of registered lobbyists in Washington today compared to say 20 years ago...