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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:00 AM
Original message
Americans are not uninformed
they know exactly what´s going on, but rarely give a rat´s ass, unless their personal financial well being is threatened. Look at Mexico, a stolen election took millions to the streets. This would never happen here, for instance 2000 and 2004.

Americans know Bush is a mass-murderer, they know about Abhu Graib and Haditha, they know about Bush stealing from the poor and giving it to the rich corporate mobsters with his tax cuts, they know about Bush p*ssing on blacks during Katrina, they know about Bush ignoring 9/11 warnings etc etc. They know everything. Some might protest but they *never* dare do anything substantial.

After this November, nothing will change. Repugs will most certainly keep both houses, the terror alerts alone will guarantee that. They have Diebold just in case. And they have Clinton campaigning for neo-cons like Lieberman, and Clinton´s neo-con wife, the opposition (gulp) party´s greatest star, who voted for war, who doesn´t want to bring our troops back even after the entire planet saw proof that the war was a lie, who voted for the bankruptcy sham, etc etc, an appalling voting record.

Don´t blame the media for Americans being uninformed. They are not. They know. It´s simply that they care only about their pockets and they financial well being, even at the cost of innocent lives overseas.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. i blame the media anyhow
the 'mericans i talk to in droves are Foxed in the head 100%.
clear as daylight. they parrot pretty damn accurately.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. I know plenty people who are.
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 01:07 AM by mmonk
They only use talking points they've heard and don't know anything or much about neocons, PNAC, or much else for that matter. Many believe talking points of Norquist and they think Muslims all over the world are in Jihad against the US for no other reasons than religious. They believe everything bush is doing is defensive in nature and is not after power, but is protecting us.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. yup . . . most people still get their "news" from the corporate media . .
and generally trust that what they're hearing (even seeing) is pretty much the truth . . .

they don't know about all the stuff that's NOT reported . . . nor do they know about the intentional distortions and omissions in what IS reported . . .
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Mexicans revolted because they're desperately poor
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 01:06 AM by Selatius
Poverty, it seems, burns away the fat of laziness and apathy. It inflicts pain, and it seems that if enough pain is inflicted, the population will do what is necessary to stop the pain...including rising up against the government or the authorities in the area like what is happening in Oaxaca, Mexico.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Don´t blame the media for Americans being uninformed." WTF?!
OK.... I won't 'blame' the 5 multi-national corporations that control 95% of all media for skewing coverage to gain advertising $$$ and make their subsidiaries look good.

WILL THAT MAKE YOU HAPPY?


Good God - get a clue!
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. still, Bush is at 36%
so you can´t blame the media, people know damn well the man is an aberration. The 64% still do nothing. You should get a clue buddy.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Uh, yeah...............
GET A CLUE!
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. no argument huh?
I thought as much
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Not uninformed - deceived.
They (generally) have not a clue about what is really going on. The fact that a few of us can find the facts does not mean that that info is being conveyed to "the masses" by the corporate media. Doubt me? Walk across the street and ask your neighbor about PNAC.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. you're exactly right
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 01:37 AM by Skip Intro
half the country still believes Saddam/Iraq had something to do w/ 9*11.

I blame the media, but I also blame the lazy, gullible apathy of the average adult in this country.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. The original post is just one more example of blaming the victim.
Very few of us have the time, background, and/or resources to pierce the veil of corporatist propaganda. Those who lack those advantages are not to blame.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. There are people with whom I've shared the obvious thuth
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 02:33 AM by Skip Intro
yet they refuse it, choosing instead to live deception

I'll bet I'm not alone

Cold comfort trumps everything for some
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. You're not alone.
People say all the time "well I don't believe that" when I try and inform them. I reminded of the saying, "those willingly blind are the most adamant in their blindness". They've heard enough disinformation that when combined with the myth's of American exceptionalism, one cannot change their minds unless they have something confirmed through the mainstream broadcast media.
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. oh sure
the poor American victims, what a riot! Bush got 58 million votes and poor Americans are not to blame, lol! They knew about the Iraq lies and knew about torture, yet did nothing.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. Defeatist hogwash!
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. not defeatist
realistic, a nation´s government is simply a reflection of its people. It goes back to Rome and Greece.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
62. Not THIS government. It reflects Diebold, not the rest of us.
Time to hit the books. professor.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
9. And I will ask you what I have also been asked.....
What are YOU going to do about it?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. KKK-KKK-KK-KKK-KK-kKK-Karl-- Is that you?
:hi:
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. Let us know how that "something substantial" works out when you get around
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 01:36 AM by Der Blaue Engel
to it. Cuz clearly "we" just don't give a rat's ass and are doing nothing. :eyes:

Quit giving the fucking propaganda machine a pass. You refer to the terror alerts ensuring a Republican majority. Where exactly do you think those alerts come from? The moon? Either the media is lying and enabling this piece of shit administration or it isn't. Which is it?

Edited for a rat's ass
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Not THIS rat's ass!
:D



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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. I did!
it flew right by you. I used Mexico´s example, you obviously missed it.

TAKING TO THE STREETS IS THE ONLY ANSWER. REVOLUTION IS THE ONLY ANSWWER.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. There is something about our Manifest Destiny & Wild West
That makes Americans more self centered. Self centered= selfish? But, the likes of FOx news causes them to stay uninformed.
Still Americans did not suspect until Abu Grabib just how horrible BUsh's nightmare in Iraq. Pretty late in the information age, considered many of us knew COlin Powell was lieing back in 2002, if you only sought out good news. It takes a lot of work to be informed. Most Americans don't have that kind of time or inclination.
BUt, still there is something to the fact you can track many Americans feelings about their government by tracking the price of gasoline. That seems to be the biggest factor in their lives. A pretty lousy guide to one's values.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. SURE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS INFORMED,,ABOUT JON BENET!
JON BENET ..WHILE A JUDGE DECLARED * BROKE OUR LAWS AND WAS UNCONSITUTIONAL TO WIRE TAP US AND HE IS NOT IMPERIAL

JON BENET ..when & said he never said saddam was connected to 9/11 http://feeds.dailykos.com/~r/dailykos/index/~3/15634388...
BUT * FORGOT THE LETTER HE WROTE TO CONGRESS BEFORE STARTING AN ILLEGAL MILITARY ACTION..http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/2003031...

Jon Benet when 3,400+ innocent Iraqi's murdered in Iraq in July

Jon BENET...when 21 Generals came out and said this war is a disaster..

Jon Benet ..When the Nurenberg Judge said * should be tried as a war criminal ...as well as Saddam

Jon Benet ..when wistle blowers expose STATE FARM IS SHREDDING GULF COAST PEOPLES DOCUMENTS

JON BENET ...when it is exposed that 70 percent of Katrina pacts awarded without full bidding

JON BENET ...Is your cell phone spying on you? Are the whistleblowers being killed?http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2006/08/is-your-cell-phone-spying-on-you-are_23.html

JON BENET ...when an Inquiry Opened Into Israeli Use of U.S. Bombs

JON BENET ...WHEN EXPOSED THAT..Senator who put 'secret hold' on bill to open federal records is a secret, too

JON BENET ..WHEN More Bad News on Home Sales: New Homes Sales Fall Dramatically; Unsold Inventories Hit Record High

JON BENET...WHEN MANY SENIORS ARE NOW EXPERIENCING THE DONUT HOLE IN THEIR HEALTH CARE!

JON BENET...WHEN THIS COMES OUT.... Ex CIA-We Are NOT Safer & They Hate Us For Our Actions Not Our Freedoms HARPERS


JON BENET..WHEN Marines to recall 2,500 troops on involuntary basis for Iraq, Afghanistan

JON BENET ..Blair Blair feels betrayed by Bush; Blairite calls Bush "man of low intellect"'feels betrayed by Bush on Lebanon'

AND THATS JUST THIS WEEK..THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE LAST WEEK.,.

PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME AMERICANS KNOW THE THRUTH..THAT IS NOT SO!!

FLY
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
38. I say they do!
They know *all* about what you just wrote, but they choose to concentrate on JonBenet because it´s not threatening.

I don´t accept the Germans´ bullshit either, that they didn´t know, for 6 long years!! about Hitler´s crimes. They damn well knew and looked the other way. Americans are pieces of the same cloth.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. "They have Diebold just in case"??? I think you're missing something
very important. Diebold and ES&S were not "just in case." They WERE the coup.

Yes, I agree that Americans are far better informed than anyone gives them credit for. The issue and opinion polls over the last few years establish this overwhelmingly. For instance, 56% of the American people opposed the Iraq war way back in Feb. '03, before the invasion. The majority didn't believe or trust Bush, or Colin Powell, way back then. Opposition to Bush and his war is up to 70% today. 63% oppose torture "under any circumstances" (May '04), despite 24/7 fearmongering and propaganda. A whopping 84% (in a recent poll) oppose any U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war.

So, what's the problem here--indifference? I don't believe it--not as a general characterization of the majority. I think they are bewildered at Bush's re-(s)election in 2004. There has been such an "Iron Curtain" over the election fraud story--AND the election SYSTEM story--that people, although they may suspect a stolen election, don't know the details of HOW they have been disenfranchised, and are left in a state of vague discontent or anger, ignorant of what the problem is--that it is a very specific thing that was done--and clueless as to fixing it.

Tom Delay and Bob Ney--the biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress--went about DELIBERATELY eliminating transparency in our election system, with the so-called "Help America Vote Act" ('02), which provided a nearly $4 billion boondoggle to fast-track Diebold and ES&S-controlled electronic voting, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls--all over the country.

DIEBOLD: Until recently, headed by Wally O'Dell, a Bush-Cheney campaign chair and major fundraiser (a Bush "Pioneer," right up there with Ken Lay), who promised in writing to "deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush-Cheney in 2004"; and

ES&S: A spinoff of Diebold (similar computer architecture), initially funded by rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon Foundation (which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things). Diebold and ES&S have an incestuous relationship; they are run by two brothers, Bob and Todd Urosevich.

These are the people who "counted" 80% of the nation's votes in 2004, under a veil of corporate secrecy.

One third of the country voted on new electronic voting machines (touchscreens) with no paper trail AT ALL (unrecountable, unauditable!). The rest voted on a variety of machines that had some sort of paper trail, but with no audit at all required, or very inadequate auditing (and recounts extremely rare), and almost all run on TRADE SECRET programming code, or centrally tabulated with TRADE SECRET code. With the optiscans, the voter filled out a ballot which was dumped into a box and never seen again. The "vote" was turned into electrons, and separated from the evidence of the vote (the ballot). The electrons--a highly manipulable entity--were then "sent" to the central tabulators, for Diebold and ES&S to do their magic: change, switch, or disappear the "vote," or add phantom "votes", all to Bush's benefit. There is overwhelming inferential evidence that this is what they did. It can't be proven definitively because THAT WAS THE PLAN--to REMOVE proof, to make the vote counting NON-TRANSPARENT, impossible to SEE, and to make the tracks of the vote stealing impossible to follow. One insider hacker, a couple of minutes, leaving no trace--that's all you need to change thousands of votes in these EXTREMELY insecure electronic systems.

And there was no bigger secret in America than this--a huge scandal, the scandal of the century, totally black-holed by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, who actually DOCTORED their own exit polls, late on election day, Nov. 2, 2004, to FORCE them to FIT the results of Diebold's and ES&S's SECRET vote tabulation formulas. Kerry won the exit polls. They FALSIFIED the exit polls--in absurd ways--to CONFIRM the NON-TRANSPARENT "results" produced by Bush-friendly corporations. (See www.TruthIsAll.net.)

Add to this the MIND-BOGGLING SILENCE of the Democratic Party leadership as Bushite corporations took over our election system with SECRET vote "counting," and the "Iron Curtain" that THEY enforced on any talk of this coup, before or after, the (s)election, and you have a populace with almost NO CHANCE of knowing the truth, except by intense investigation, in the face of a new culture of secrecy in our election system--investigation that most people cannot do. Further, both ordinary people AND most election officials did not have the knowledge or technical expertise to UNDERSTAND the electronics that were introduced. No access to the code. No expertise even to KNOW that these machines are WIDE OPEN to INSIDER HACKING. It has taken panels of independent experts to figure that out. A few whistleblowers were onto it. They could not be heard (--and in the one case in which they WERE heard, by CA Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, he immediately sued Diebold for their lies about the security of their machines, de-certified the worst of their machines--the touchscreens--prior to the 2004 election, and demanded to see their source code; he was then "swiftboated' out of office, in early 2005, on entirely bogus corruption charges--with the collusion of the CA Democratic Party legislative leaders and highly corrupt county election officials. The message to election officials around the country was that honesty WILL BE punished--look out!)

I have a very intelligent, liberal friend, to whom I explained some of the facts of our election system (who Diebold and ES&S were, etc.), and this was her response: "But the Democrats wouldn't let that happen, would they?"

But it's not a matter of what the Democratic leadership WOULD do. It's a matter of what they DID do.

And I think we have to face this, as the members--the rank and file--of the Democratic Party. Many of our party leaders are warmongers, corporatists and even fascists. Delay and Ney did not engineer this election system coup alone. They had major assistance from Bilderberg 'Democrat' Christopher Dodd. All BUT TWO Senate Democrats voted FOR this unbelievably bad bill, HAVA. It is crap on its face. Tom Delay PREVENTED a paper trail requirement from getting out of committee. Electronic voting, by Bushite corporations, using TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY CODE, with not even a paper trail, let alone a real paper ballot backup required. No recounts or audits ARE EVEN POSSIBLE in one third of the country. It's fraudulent on its face! Yet they all voted for it. Some may have been ignorant, or stupid, or fearful--or inhaled too much anthrax. But most knew EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING--just as they knew exactly what they were doing in voting for Bush's war.

And their behavior SINCE THEN--the absolute taboo that our party leaders placed on this subject, which continues to this day (with only small cracks of daylight recently--as the result of livid rank and file members who have gotten onto it)--tells you yet more about the corruption of our leaders.

If you're going to have a war with the majority of the people opposed, in a democracy, there is one thing you must do. Rig the elections. That's what they did. And our Democratic Party leaders, most of whom voted FOR the war, and continue to FUND the war with vote after vote, went right along with ALTERING our election system so that voting counting was no longer visible, recountable or auditable, and in which ordinary people no longer have any part to play. Private corporations now entirely control the counting of our votes, the servicing, maintenance and upgrading of the machines that do it, and the SECRET FORMULAE that are used in the tabulations.

Yeah, you could blame the people for all this. We have been less than vigilant. We have trusted our leaders. We really should have dismantled our huge war machine after Vietnam. And we should have demanded Reagan's head for the Iran-Contra war on Nicaragua, as well as for the Reagan tax code re-write, the S&L scandals and a number of other early signs of the fascism to come, including Clinton's signing of NAFTA. We should have held Clinton's feet to the fire over his campaign promise NOT to sign that global piracy agreement without labor and environmental protections. And 50,000 of us tried to, in Seattle, in 1999. But the fascist cabal distracted everybody with Monica. That's what Ken Starr was all about--distraction from NAFTA and the WTO and a number of diabolical plots, including the "Project for a New American Century."

If we can get our country back--STARTING with RESTORING our right to vote--we must never lose vigilance again. But we have also been the TARGET of an unbelievable amount of manipulation and ill intent. And the Corporate Rulers who have targeted us did so for a REASON. We, the people of the United States, are at the vortex of the Dark Powers who are destroying the planet and killing masses of people out of pure greed. And we hold the theoretical power, as a sovereign people, to DISMANTLE these global corporations that are causing so much grief in the world. They saw our power as a people in 1999--the most amazing protest I have ever witnessed (and the most universally slandered by the corporate news monopolies!). They acted to STOP us from apprising the country of the great peril we are all in from out-of-control, U.S.-based global corporations. Stolen Election I was not far in the future (2000). Thence to 9/11, in which the illegitimate Bush regime was passively involved, at the least. Thence to illegal, unjust war, based on lies and deceit. Thence to the ultimate control mechanism--SECRET corporate vote "counting"--and Stolen Election II.

We don't see Nazi boots in America. The control is invisible. Very subtle. The war profiteering corporate news monopolies also play a part, not to convince anyone that unjust war and massive looting by the rich are good for us--they can't do that, and they HAVEN'T SUCCEEDED in doing that--but rather to convince us of our powerlessness, by painting the tiny rightwing minority as the "mainstream," and giving it a Big Trumpet way out of proportion to its numbers. Thus, many members of the great progressive MAJORITY believe that they are in the minority, and that OTHER Americans have gone nuts. The majority has been demoralized, disempowered, and DISENFRANCHISED.

It is very, very important to analyze our situation CORRECTLY, and to think STRATEGICALLY. I am convinced that we MUST address the secret vote counting FIRST. Voting is the chief mechanism by which we exercise our sovereignty as a people. We MUST restore the power of our vote. We have NO POWER even to influence war policy, let alone to reform our government, with Bushite corporations "counting" the votes in secret!

Restoring transparent elections is still doable--at the state/local level, where decisions about election systems are still made, and where ordinary people still have some influence. HAVA did NOT require electronic voting. It merely FUNDED it, big time, and permitted extensive, unregulated, lavish lobbying of election officials and legislators. We can RETURN to paper ballots, hand-counted at the precinct level (with results posted prior to any use of electronics). This is the best system. Canada does it it one day. But speed should not even be a consideration--only accuracy and verifiability.

My suggestion: MASSIVE Absentee Ballot voting this fall. FLOOD election officials with MOUNTAINS of paper AB votes, create panic and crisis in the election theft industry, and FORCE these corrupt or stupid state/local election officials to the table NOW.

AB votes are NOT "safe"--and will NOT produce accurate vote counts--but if enough people vote AB (and many are--it's up to 50% in Los Angeles), we DO have the power to scare the bejeebers out of them, and FORCE reform. And we might thereby be able to salvage the '08 primaries and general election. (By salvage, I mean the nomination and election of a real reformer as president--not another War/Corporatist Democrat--with a real Congress to back him/her up.)

The fascist cabal may be smart enough to throw us some bones this November. They will not permit an anti-war, anti-Bush majority in Congress, however. We may get a few more "voices crying in the wildernerss." We will most certainly NOT gain the votes in Congress to do what really needs to be done (and we all know what that is--impeachment). Too many Democrats are collusive. They, too, owe their power to Diebold and ES&S, and not to us.

Step #1: Bust the Machines--Vote Absentee!





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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. I was referring to 2006 and 2008
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 10:57 AM by professor_grove
when I said ´´just in case´´.

Diebold is indeed the reason Bush is still in power. Yet Americans do nothing. Not one single protest.

the 36% at least have the excuse that they are brain dead and lied to by Fox and RW Radio, but what excuse do the remaining 64% have?
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
20. welcome to DU....
as fsr as your post, you're right but
god created a world where the lie is down the street before truth even gets its shoes on....
chk out the US civil war, or ww2. both conflicts pitted good against nogood. and in both conflicts, the nogood ran away with the prize until, somehow, the good finally got angry enough and determined enough that geopolitics itself was radically altered- by end of civil war, the 'union' was probably the mightiest military on earth, and by end of ww2, both the usa and ussr had multi million man armies and were but a few years from deploying satelites in space! (unfortunately, both the bad guys waited out the good and won the respective conflicts on nov7/00, but that's another topic :( )
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
21. You often create
what you project, Debbie Downer. In projecting such a hopeless scenario I have to conclude that you don't want to see any change.

However a LOT has changed since 2004, for the better. A lot of Americans have become more informed than they were then, despite the media brainwash. So why should we not expect that positive trend to continue?

The Repupes can only win now if they steal it, and millions more Americans are onto that strategy than in 2004.

Come join the fight. Don't sit around whining.



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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. not whining
exposing reality. I bet the lections in 2006 and 2008 have already been stolen and Americans will do nothing about it. Save this thread.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
51. I didn't wake up completely until 2004, but now I have accepted that
my country has a dark, disturbing past, and our current actions are even more destructive.

In 2000, I had no idea. Now, I'm educated, and spreading the word, just like every other DU'r.

There are all different kinds of Revolutions, and they all take time. Your attitude is not helping. :(
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
22. "All politics is local" - Tip O'Neil
Gas prices, jobs, taxes, whether your kid comes home in a box or needs an abortion, whether your neighbors dog shits on your lawn.

Principles, ethics, honesty, are left to the politicians and their handlers who realize that "all politics is local" and
wrap them up in a flag and pay lip service to them while maintaining their seat at the public trough.

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
28. I think people who watch only Fox and listen to RW radio still don't know
what actually went down with NOLA/Katerina. And then there's like 50% that thinks Iraq had something to do with 9-11. Those are just two examples.
I'd say that's uninformed.

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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Fox and RW Radio
consumers are the 35% who still approve of Bush.

What about the rest, the ´informed´ 65%? They are watching Bush destroy this nation, sitting on their fat asses and doing nothing.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Are you one of the 65% sitting on your fat ass and doing nothing,
beyond telling us how much we don't give a rat's ass? :eyes:
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. this is not about me buddy
it´s a discussion about all Americans and their complacency. Bush wouldn´t be able to get away with so much if Americans weren´t looking the other way all the time.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
46. What would you have them do?
Pick up pitchforks and storm the White House? That's not going to happen- people don't do that sort of thing unless they're starving.

There are alot of very angry Americans who may not have access to all the facts and figures, but still know the Bush Administration is a reckless, self-serving bunch of criminals and can't wait to be rid of them. Sixty-five percent is against this bunch, even without having access to real news. Alot of the people I meet seem absolutely desperate to vent about this subject- if you bring up Bush, all sort of anger comes pouring out. They want to do something, but they don't know what they can do besides vote against the GOP in November.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
61. Ok, here's my revised opinion:
I think people are quite well informed about things that affect them directly, for which they don't need the media to inform them: things such as gas prices and medicare.

People are reasonably well informed about how bad Bush is - in spite of the media.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. I've thought a lot of about those two stats, since they don't gel with all
the other stats. Americans overwhelmingly oppose Bush AND his war--and have been against his war from the beginning!

So what do we make of 50% or so thinking that Saddam had WMDs, and/or Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Upshot: they may think Saddam had WMDs but that those WMDs were not a sufficient threat to merit a war, or should have been handled by legal means and international consensus--UN, sanctions, etc. Same with Saddam and 9/11: He may have had SOMETHING to do with it, but worth a war and the killing of innocents and US soldiers? No! If Saddam had a role, it was minor.

This interpretation is the only thing that makes sense. Yeah, they've gotten some disinformation stuck in their heads, but THEY STILL DON'T TRUST BUSH. They don't trust his interpretation of things. They don't approve of his method of dealing with them--war as a first resort.

This is how 70% can disapprove of Bush and his war, and still think that there is something to these two disinformation items. And I think it's a reason to praise our fellow and sister citizens, and marvel at them! They have common sense. They have discrimination. They don't want vengeance--especially random vengeance. They don't want unjust and unnecessary war. They want problems to be SOLVED--reasonably and lawfully! And Bush isn't doing that!

And they have come to these conclusions about Bush and his war despite 24/7 fearmongering and propaganda, and truly intense disinformation.

Give them a break! Is it any wonder, with so much disinformation around, that they haven't yet fully figured out that there is something very wrong with the election system--something very specific and deliberately done--and that that IS the problem!

The ONE AND ONLY success of the war profiteering corporate news monopoly propaganda has been to convince this great MAJORITY that despises Bush that they are the MINORITY, and that they HAVE no power to change things.

That has been devastating. And, unlike Mexico, North Americans do not have tight-knit communities with a lot of informal word-of-mouth communication, in some cases (with the indigenous) going back thousands of years. We are a scattered, fractured, individualistic population, that--quite understandably, I think--doesn't have much faith in big demonstrations, in the current political atmosphere (deaf, fascist government), and, further, doesn't have the wherewithal to fly 3,000 miles to Washington DC to protest. That's a lo-o-o-ong way away for most people. (--and the fascists are messing with that, aren't they? cooking up excuses to limit air travel!). Scattered demos around the country are certainly wonderful for many reasons, but have no impact. Nothing really can move this government. They are not a legitimate government and are not answerable to we, the people.

This is why I like the Absentee Ballot protest so much. It's easy. Everybody can do it. It's an individual protest, by which individuals can connect with the bigger scene. It's a uniquely No. American protest. Everybody getting their 2 cents in. Everybody demanding FAIRNESS in vote counting. Everybody collectively boycotting the machines, but on an individual basis--a matter between you and your local election officials. Everybody taking responsibility for TRANSPARENT elections--but only as much responsibility as they can bear. If you have more time, photocopy your AB vote and send it registered mail/return receipt requested. Or hand deliver it. And/or send a separate letter demanding vote counting that people can SEE. And/or going and watching the AB vote count. And/or joining an election reform group. AB voting is the BASIC PROTEST--very democratic, inclusive and expressive of widespread discontent.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
31. The Freeper Chant "We Don't Care".."We Don't Care".."We Don't Care"
USA ,..USA ,.. USA ,.. "We Don't Care" ,.."We Don't Care" ,.."We Don't Care"
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. hmmm
do you attack the messenger each time you can´t deal with the message?
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. This was not an attack but an example of the truth of what you say.
I'm confused as to why you consided this to be an attack upon you unless you associate yourself with the Freepers.
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. ok
I take that back then.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
34. well, yeah some Americans are not just apathetic, but sociopathic
I've seen bumper stickers, like "Bomb Iraq and Steal their Oil," I've had a woman shrug her shoulders and state "Well, that's war" like war was something we have to deal with instead of thinking about the deaths, the misery. I've listened into a conversation between a Coast Guardsman and a woman-she thanked him for his service and proclaimed how she displays the flag everyday-see, that's how she honors the soldiers. And, Reagan and Bush are right cause they know what we don't know and that Star Wars program is gonna save our butts. So, I believe some people are uninformed, some are apathetic and some are sociopathic-but not all.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
39. Never underestimate people's capacity for willful ignorance
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 10:38 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
I saw a perfect example during my trip to England. I was attending The Three Choirs Festival in Hereford, and while I was there, the weather turned cold all of a sudden, so I headed to a department store to see if I could find a reasonably priced sweater. As luck would have it, it was summer clearance sale time, and I managed to buy a good heavy cotton knit cardigan for 12 pounds (about $22).

As I was paying for it, the sales clerk (late teens) noticed my American accent and asked what I was doing in town. I told her that I was attending the festival.

"What festival?" she asked.

Oh, just the one that is advertised on banners outside the store, is covered in the local press, is taking place in venues all over the place, including some just across the street from the store, and has brought thousands of outsiders to your small and pleasant city every three years since the early eighteenth century.

:shrug:

I used to see the same phenomenon in students. An event could be advertised all over campus, promoted by professors, and announced in the dining hall, and students would claim not to know about it.

So if there are Americans who claim never to have heard of Abu Graib or election fraud, I'm inclined to believe them.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
41. I disagree- they're terribly uninformed. When I talk politics with
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 10:47 AM by Marr
members of my extended family, they've *never* heard any of the news stories, facts, or figures I use to make my argument. Never.

Everyone else may not be a news junkie like you and me, but many are very anxious to hear the facts. The problem is that, for alot of Americans, there is simply no way to get real news. And that's no accident.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. but some people have very disturbing preconceived ideas
why do people gravitate towards political blowhards like Rush, Hannity or O'Reilly? It's because their audiences already have preconceived ideas and prejudices that are validated by said spew mongers. Some may be uninformed, but there is a part of America that truly can be labeled "the ugly American." Some may listen to these pundits for awhile, but their beliefs, conscience kick in and know that they're spewing BS--but not the faithful listeners--their minds are already made up.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Sure they do- they're human beings. But when the only media
people can get is right-wing hatemongering, it's even easier to sell. It starts to seem normal. Guys like Limbaugh and Hannity appeal to fear, hate, greed, and arrogance. We've ALL got those traits inside us.

Think about what life is like for alot of people; the only opinion on the radio is Limbaugh, the only thing on the TV is Fox News or CNN, and the only opinion in print is what WalMart deems acceptable.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. my factory co-workers did not really care about print anyway
Print is not totally controlled by the RWNM, although there is alot of their spin in the average paper, but the only one reading the paper in one factory where I was a temp, besides me, was a former English teacher. She had to bring her own to do so and I was the only one who asked to borrow a section or two. With a fifteen minute break people would rather talk and eat than read. In another factory where we had longer breaks (and they took even longer breaks) a community newspaper was provided, but most of the people there were only interested in the classified and sports sections.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. I laughed out loud at "What Liberal Media?"
Alterman wrote that most Americans can name all three stooges, but cannot name 3 members of the Supreme Court. So I tried it on a co-worker - he could not even name one, and two have recently been confirmed, and he's a college grad (who's currently working 3 jobs, so when would he have time, or energy, to get the news?). He told me there was actually a fourth stooge.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
44. Yeah, let's give up now before we try.
:eyes:
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
47. Go out to a bar tonight and talk politics or science, and then come back
and tell me they aren't uninformed.
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. they might not know as much as
you and I do, but they are indeed aware of the Iraq lies, of Abhu Graib, of Valerie Plame, etc etc, and yet, they choose to look the other way. The coward´s way out.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
48. Really?
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 11:58 AM by notsodumbhillbilly
Read this thread. www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1988104

If you believe the average American knows what's going on, include yourself among the uninformed.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. So your point is that we're all evil?
Is that what you're trying to say? Americans don't do anything because we're largely uninformed, all of us just don't do anything because we don't care? I don't buy that. I'll grant you there are some that do feel that way, but the majority don't.
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professor_grove Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. yes
and that´s my point. The majority is well informed (only 36% approval) but does little substantial to change. I don´t know about evil, but just as bad: complacent.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. There is complacency, yes
But it isn't as extensive or as penetrating as you think. I think the main reason people don't do anything is because they think that, even though the system is broken, it will fix itself somehow. For example, look at the assumption that we will 'win' the November elections and start to put things right again. If things are as bad as some suggest, there is no way to 'win' this election, because it is rigged. They hope that it isn't, they want to work within the system to fix it, and they are waiting for the outcome in November. If it does turn out to be rigged, things will I think change rapidly.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
50. Most people are too comfy AND they don't know about LIHOP/MIHOP
If people knew what really happened with 9/11, that it was a LIHOP/MIHOP event and that * & co has used it to ONLY serve themselves and their cronies by getting us into an illegal war that they were only able to do by diabolically controlling the populous, you just might see a revolution.

The media isn't reporting anything about the discrepancies or questions surrounding 9/11 and they aren't reporting anything about the stolen election of '04. If the media was being honest and truthful, you just might see a revolution.

If anything happens to push people out of their comfort zones, say a transparent 9/11 or a draft or the Great Depression 2, you just might see a revolution.

But if and until something big breaks-either the media gets a conscience or the people are pushed against a wall, nothing is gonna change.

Those bastards were smart enough to cover all the bases-this country has been thoroughly punked. :grr:
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. All one must do is look at how many
have protested-hundreds of thousands-against the war in Iraq-the candlelight vigils in many cities--there are people in this country that do care, that are informed, that have busted their butts to make a difference, that have become civic ly active directly due to the actions of this administration. I believe that more people are becoming aware despite media. Voter registration is up, as it was for 2004-however, there are some people in this country that have their minds made up and I doubt they can be changed. And, I believe some people who were once apathetic, have taken an interest in becoming more informed and active.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. True-there have been protests, marches, but the numbers aren't enough.
This is such a huge country that any kind of "revolution" has to be massive. At this time, there are not enough people who know the truth about 9/11 or election fraud or who are willing to risk their comfort zones. However, although I may be cynical, at the same time I have a kernal of hope that the number of people needed to make a change will wake up and soon!
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
53. Yep poor people around the world know more than we do
and since they have nothing to lose they lay it on the line. Look at South American activism in places like Ecuador...those people know how to kick a politician out of office.

Here, however, with all our cable channels, newspapers, and INTERNETS we have a lot to lose (though we are going to lose it by doing nothing)..therefore we're scared sheeple that if we take to the streets and change the system our DVDs, SUVs and MikeyD's are going to go away. Welcome to the land of ME ME ME.

And of course that reinforces the LIVE FOR TODAY view that heavily discourages us looking ahead to the long term consequences of our actions.

No nation as comfortable as we have become has ever revolted. And the revolt we have experienced has not come from the connected middle/class. It either comes from the oppressed bottom or from the manipulative top.

Happy thoughts I know. But I don't currently see the conflux of events that are required for the social change that is in fact needed.

We need a unified group with a defined purpose and a charismatic leader to coalesce around. But we haven't had anything like that since the 60s.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
54. Have to agree, though maybe anyone is like that
If it is indirect enough and the people far away enough, it is easy to blame them for their cirumstances.

Americans in general (there are exceptions) are very self-centered (though maybe everyone is). If paying higher prices for their toys would somehow make life better for somebody at some distant part of the globe, they wouldn't do it. They'd just rationalize it.
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