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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:36 PM
Original message
A question for everyone who thinks Karl Rove is behind all the
terror alerts:


1. The World Trade Center was attacked twice.

2. There have been several terror attacks including the ones in Indonesia, Spain and England since 9/11.

3. There are all kind of Osama wanna-bes out there plotting to make their mark on the world.

4. Yes, the Bush administration has made a series of ludicrous arrests but see #2 and # 3 above.

5. Meanwhile, the Bush administration has made very little real progress in protecting us from a terror attack and in fact by diverting resources to an unnecessary war has made things worse.

Given all that, why do you assume that every arrest or false alarm world wide is part of a scheme by Rove to tip the November elections? I would rather see an air crew react to a false alarm than to see another plane go down.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. may be real but as was case in London, over-hyped, jumped the gun,
and primarily, it's degree of publicity they receive.

Also, how formidible can an enemy be when it always attacks just when it would be politically advantageous to the administration?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. the jaywalkers in Des Moines
are completely out of control too.

The "war" on "terror" is a marketing campaign.

Are there terrorists? Yes.

Are they responsible for everything they're accused of by the neocons. No.

Do we need to be diligent with intelligence and law enforcement? Yes.

Are the global neocons being diligent with intelligence and law enforcement? No.

It's treason and PR.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I agree that much of the rhetoric is PR and pretty disgusting
I'm concerned by reports that the US jumped the gun on the British and stopped the plot before all the evidence was in. (On the other hand, maybe someone in US Security just didn't want to take a chance.) But when individual security people react to specific events, it's not Karl Rove pulling the strings. Besides, at what point do people look around and notice that 5 years on, things aren't safe yet? I think a successful terror attack in the US would be the worst thing possible for Bush at this point. I'm waiting for him to do his act in New Orleans and then go on vacation when Hurricane Debbie hits next week. Even the American people can't be fooled all of the time.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. jumping the gun on the UK "plot"
was purely political, not a security decision

Many of the "plots" that have been uncovered are extremely suspicious. Often, it is only an undercover agent who is advocating violence or suggesting the terrorist activities

The "war" is 99.9% propaganda.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Knowing how some security types like to play James Bond,
I still have an open mind on this. Maybe Bush jumped the gun and maybe someone decided it wasn't worth risking people's lives by assuming that they had tabs on all the plotters.
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shugh514 Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Even when liars tell the truth, they are never believed.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think here on DU
we sometimes give Rove super power status.

He's just a good spin doctor and he spun the timing like a pro.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. ummm... because Tom RIdge admitted
it was politically motivated.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. thanks for reminding folks..
seems a lot of people just aren't really paying attention very closely.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I missed that and would like a reference
I'm not doubting what you're saying, but it sounds so much like an urban legend that I'd like to have a refernce before I pass it on.
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. see post #11
Edited on Fri Aug-25-06 02:03 PM by obreaslan
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thanks
These wankers pull so much bull shit that it's hard to keep track.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. that's why i keep a scorecard handy
=P
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Score card?
You must have 12 three ring binders by now!
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Ridge reveals clashes on alerts
WASHINGTON The Bush administration periodically put the USA on high alert for terrorist attacks even though then-Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge argued there was only flimsy evidence to justify raising the threat level, Ridge now says.

Ridge, who resigned Feb. 1, said Tuesday that he often disagreed with administration officials who wanted to elevate the threat level to orange, or "high" risk of terrorist attack, but was overruled.

<snip>

Ridge said he wanted to "debunk the myth" that his agency was responsible for repeatedly raising the alert under a color-coded system he unveiled in 2002.

"More often than not we were the least inclined to raise it," Ridge told reporters. "Sometimes we disagreed with the intelligence assessment. Sometimes we thought even if the intelligence was good, you don't necessarily put the country on (alert). ... There were times when some people were really aggressive about raising it, and we said, 'For that?' "

<more>

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-10-ridg...

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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not one word
I don't believe a word they say.
And everything they do is staged.
They have zero credibility.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Again, I question the crazy color coding and I think most
people ignore it completely. It's totally useless precisely because people think it's been used for political purposes. But individuals acting on what information they have in hand aren't under the control of Karl Rove. Do you really think he planted Republican operatives as flight attendants on the Northwest Airliner this week?
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. the comedian, david cross, talks about that on his..
'It's not Fucking Funny' album. He asks the audience what the threat alert is for that day. You hear people in the crowd calling out YELLOW or ORANGE. David then says "You know why nobody knows? Because nobody FUCKING CARES!!"
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. A Question for you: What happened to the Color Coded Terror Level Chart?
Edited on Fri Aug-25-06 02:01 PM by obreaslan
We were getting updates almost weekly up until the 2004 election, then suddenly...bupkiss. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1211369,...

Now that the 2006 mid-term elections are coming up, suddenly we are getting terror alerts almost daily for the last few weeks.

Now that seems suspicious to me. Perhaps I've been desensitized. Perhaps not. Sure, there are terrorists out there, but are they carrying shampoo bottles onto every plane in the world? No. The terror threats come more frequently as the republicans get more scared that they might lose their hold on power. They scare the people, the people vote for them. Is it logical? No. But for some reason it works. Until it stops working, expect the terror alerts to be escalated in conjunction with national elections. And plan on me to be skeptical every time. :shrug:

edit: for tpyo.
edit #2: To thank NewYorkerfromMass in post #5 for reminding me that Ridge also saidd they were used politcally. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-10-ridg...
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. Al Qaida is a real threat
Edited on Fri Aug-25-06 02:10 PM by Ignacio Upton
But in many of the cases where Bush and/or DHS have given terror alerts or reports of busted terror plots, there has been nothing but bullshit. The Miami plot back in June is one example, Another is how they selectively chose the date to release information on the London plot to when it could be used against the Democrats (ie. against Lamont's win.) Several of the terror alerts under Ridge's tenure were also dubious, and Ridge himself even hinted this much:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-10-ridg...

Keith Olbermann also had a good piece on this last October:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az7yl-UnsQQ
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm saying that just because the Bush administration lies and
twists events to make itself look good, that doesn't mean there aren't real concerns out there. As ludicrous as it sounds, the Shoe Bomber could have hurt or killed people if a flight attendant hadn't noticed his odd behavior. I think we should give some of the on the scene security people the benefit of the doubt. BTW - I don't excuse the plane load of panicky passengers that forced the two men off the plane in England last week. I would have made the accusers wait overnight in the airport and flown the victims to their destination.
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Richard Reid was indeed a real threat
And like I said, Al Qaida is real and kickin' (and they wouldn't be kickin' as much had Bush actually put more of his energy in fighting them instead of going into Iraq!)
The problem is that this administration will politicize terrorism if they can get away with it.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. And the more Bush lies, the more people ignore the possibility
of a real threat. that's the moral of the story of the Boy who cried wolf. It's not that the boy lied; it's that no one believed him when he told the truth. Too bad the sheep got eaten.
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Exactly!
If we keep hearing about "unsubstaniated threats" then eventually we are going to call bullshit. We want details and real news, not talk of vague "chatter."
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