So would DU have been opposed to Bernie running against Democrats?

[CollegeDUer]

I myself live in a very "red" state and I understand completely that small groups of progressives can often just hand elections to Republicans because of the screwed up voting system we have. But I think there are parts of the country where people really do believe in more than our political establishment of rich white males can offer. I think there are people who want a real political alternative and have the votes to get one.

Enter Bernie Sanders. He ran against Democrats several times until he beat them. He then went on to claim a Congressional seat as an Independent self-proclaimed socialist -- running against both Democrats and Republicans.

My question is: would DU have supported Bernie when he was running against Democrats? I mean, is that even kosher? I thought disgruntled leftists just do that to make Republicans win, or so I hear so often.

Bernie is now so popular that he has recieved endorsements from Feingold and Obama. According to the DSCC website, he has raised 70 times as much for his campaign than his opponent, a self-financed millionaire Republican.

Is this not what Democracy Looks Like, as many are so fond of saying? This progressive has taken hold of the left-wing dream.

And honestly, in districts where 70 or 80 percent of people vote Democrat (and in Georgia where I live no where outside of Atlanta is like that), but the Democrat in offie refuses to take left/progressive stances that most of his or her constituents take -- I'm ready for more Bernie Sanders types. I'm not afraid to support them.

How about you?

[bowens43]

1. No. DU supports only Democrats

in a race in which a Democrat is running. Read the rules.

Don't support him. It's not welcome.

[CollegeDUer]

4. Obama, Feingold, and Leahy all support him

He's so popular and unbeatable by a Dem. that the Dems have found it best to co-opt him. What do you think about that decision?

[nsd]

22. They support him because no Democrat is running.

If there were a Democratic nominee, they would not back him.

[CollegeDUer]

25. Actually a Democrat is running I believe

As have Democrats in the past against Bernie. If I remember correctly a former Green-turned-Democrat is up against Sanders.

[Selatius]

27. Then you can only support that candidate, not Sanders as per rule

If you want to campaign for him, God knows I would support your efforts as a thinking individual, but Skinner et al. will boot your campaigning for him off the board for breaking the rules.

[nsd]

28. He's not the party's nominee.

The state party decided to support Sanders rather than field a nominee of its own.

A couple of people are running in the Sept. 12 primary, but they're not expected to win.

<http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/07/13/party_shuns_vermont_democrats_in_race/>

[CollegeDUer]

31. I do wonder what the Democrats-only group thinks of Dems

endorsing an independent. I like Bernie so I'm fine with it. I'm in a state far away so I can't campaign for him, but according to opinion polls he has one of the largest leads in a Senate race in recent history -- so I don't think that will be necessary.

[bryant69]

2. I don't know if this is about LIeberman or not

I would say that we've seen in recent history that voting for the moer noble candidate can have very negative consequences. On the other hand there's no doubt many independents who woudl make fine candidates.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[CollegeDUer]

3. That is what I was thinking

I was thinking that if a better candidate is popular enough and can run a decent campaign, I have no guilt in supporting him.

[bryant69]

8. Even if your vote for that candidate gives the election to the Repug?

Or would that make you think twice?

[CollegeDUer]

19. Like I said

If the person has a large campaign and is doing well in getting popularity, then I would likely vote for them as they have a fair shot in the election. If the person is largely and unfortunately shut out of campaigns, debates, etc, then I might think twice.

I mean in areas where Repubs. get something like 20% of the vote -- there's little danger voting your conscience in those places, don't you think?

[Richard Steele]

5. This is "Democratic Underground", not "democracy underground".

This is a completely partisan discussion board,
for DEMOCRATS.

There are any number of places to show
and discuss support for non-Democratic politicians;
this is not one of them.

[CollegeDUer]

6. What do you think about all the major Democrats supporting him then?

I mean, practically the entire Democratic establishment supports him, even over a former Green running as a Democrat against him.

[Richard Steele]

10. I don't. And if I did, I wouldn't talk about it here. RULES, donchaknow...

[EstimatedProphet]

14. There's the big difference between him and Lieberman

He's supported by Democrats, Lieberman is supported by Republicans.

[CollegeDUer]

17. I'm not at all saying he's like Lieberman

I just want to know the discussion here on it. Because usually independent progressives, greens, get ripped to pieces here. But Bernie has shown he can challenge the mainstream Democrats and WIN and still support most Democratic initiatives. Is that better for DU?

[Selatius]

23. No, there isn't a big difference if you look at it from a partisan stance

From a purely partisan stance, anybody who is sitting in a particular seat and isn't a "D" is not desireable.

From a leftist/progressive stance, the requirement isn't so stringent. A leftist/progressive is better from this stance than somebody who isn't, and unfortunately some Democrats don't have progressive stances on certain issues.

[kentuck]

7. Is a Democratic Socialist part of the Democratic Party ??

Personally, the capital "D" by their name is not enough for me. I think it is foolish to think in such terms. What if Arlen Specter switches Parties and becomes a Democrat? Or what if Olympia Snowe becomes a Democrat? Would you support them over a candidate with the credentials of an "independent" Bernie Sanders? I could not. I think it is a dilution of the Democratic Party message that harms the Party. Our Party should be more than a "D" by their name. We should have certain principles that we stand by and not surrender those so easily. I disagree with those folks that think so narrowly...

[CollegeDUer]

11. I agree completely.

I think the same should go for Republicans and all parties. Going by a letter is killing democracy in this nation.

[Selatius]

18. If Arlen Specter became a Democrat, you can't do anything about it

There is no litmus test for a person to change party registration to be a "D." You're going to have to live with the fact that Arlen is in the same party with you.

[CollegeDUer]

20. Many of the more ideological Right have started calling Specter one

Because Specter believes in some semblance of constitutional law and has begun to act as a check against wiretapping, the hardline authoritarians are starting to call him a RINO and the like.

[ThomWV]

9. Did Not The Democratic Party Elect Not To Contest Bernie's Seat?

Hasn't the state's party indicated its support of Bernie and suggested that they will not field an opponent in November?

I thought that was the case. If it is, then I think as a strong supporter of the principles espoused by most Democrats he becomes worthy of ours support.

By the way, he is an independent, STOP calling him a Socialist. It gives people the impression you might be a troll just here to plant that one little negative thought in our collective heads. You wouldn't want that, would you?

[CollegeDUer]

15. I don't see socialist as negative and neither do the Vermonters

I know a certain section of Jingo America hates the word and defines any barely left Democrat as one (with great ignorance, to be sure), but he is proud of the label.

His succession to the Senate I think will be a great step up to everyone who despises predatory markets and its government enablers.

[LostinVA]

43. Bernie isn't a Socialist, either

He's a Democratic Socialist. There is quite a difference in the two. Being a member myself of the DSA, I know of which I speak!

[Selatius]

12. I support Bernie Sanders as an individual. DU does NOT support Sanders.

I'm a thinking human being first and foremost before I am a Democrat.

As a moderate libertarian socialist, I find his policies incredibly appealing, and if I endorse him by donating to him or something, I will do that as an individual.

Given the partisan nature of DU, I do not expect the same of DU itself. It only supports Democrats only.

[ThomWV]

13. What's this "Socialist" Bullshit?

I've seen it in this posting twice now. I think its just a ploy to get that label pasted on Bernie's ass.

I'm calling bullshit on this one ...

[CollegeDUer]

16. Look at this The Progressive interview

"Q: Do you think they’re going to use the socialist label against you, and do you think that’s going to matter?

Sanders: No, I doubt it will make a dent. I’ve run for statewide office plenty of times, and people know me. If you look at what they did to Max Cleland and what they did to John Kerry, we have a pretty good idea of what they can do. It’s the politics of personal destruction. They are incapable of debating issues, because their positions on all of the issues are horrendous. Their style has always been to try to personally destroy whom they run against. So we expect a great deal of negativity."

http://progressive.org/mag_intv1205

He's proud of the label, as you should be of what you are.

[JHB]

34. Then you're calling bullshit on Bernie himself

Yes, he downplays the word these days because in so much of this country it doesn't have much meaning except as a smear word, but he's called himself a democratic socialist (small "d" and "s").

Look at his bio page on his Congressional website: at the end he lists a number of booksthat chronicle his career:
"More information about Congressman Sanders can be obtained from his political autobiography, Outsider in the House by Bernie Sanders and Huck Gutman, Verso Press, 1997. Other books that describe his political career as Mayor of Burlington, Vermont and candidate for Congress are: People's Republic: Vermont and the Sanders Revolution by Greg Guma, 1989; Challenging the Boundaries of Reform: Socialism in Burlington by W.J. Conroy, 1990; Socialist Mayor: Bernard Sanders in Burlington, Vermont by Steven Soifer, 1991; Making History in Vermont: The Election of a Socialist to Congress by Steven Rosenfeld, 1992."

"Socialism" can be a label to paste on someone's ass, but the people who do so smear it on the ass of anyone who oposes them.

[warrens]

21. Bernie did not run as a spoiler

He is a socialist, and Dem voters decided he was a better candidate than the dem was. This is a case of losing within the Dem party, then running out and starting a whole new campaign meant to get enough Repuke votes to overcome a disadvantage with Dem voters. It's not the same thing.

[CollegeDUer]

24. I didn't even mention Lieberman!

I know everyone has Lamont/Lieberman on their mind when they approach my post. I'm actually asking if DU thinks that popular independent progressives should challenge establishment Dems and if it was right for Bernie to do so. I personally would say I do think it was right in his case, because he represents a brand of working class politics most Dems have abandoned.

[JHB]

38. What we would prefer...

...is for "establishment Dems" to recognize the vacuum they've created by abandoning working class populism, and start heading back to it, or get challenged from within the party.

Pie in the sky, perhaps, but what you are asking also depends heavily on the pricise situation of any particular contest. It's a broad-brush question for a filling-in-the-cracks subject.

[CollegeDUer]

39. I guess you're right

I just wondered how the party hardliners (people who stick with the D at any cost) thought about someone who could succeed so much for D causes without it.

[warrens]

44. He also was getting more than 4 percent of the total

If you're trying to find one example of a non-core-party politician who won an election, yeah, Bernie did that. He did it by becoming popular in his state for taking courageous stands, and sticking up for what he believed in. Unlike the Greens, he wasn't in it to hand the election to the fascists.

Greens have a right to run for office if they so choose. However, we also have a right to point out that they're preening, delusional dilettentes who knew they were gutting a close race, and yet in their arrogance continued their pointless campaigns. The intelligent ones, like Michael Moore, pointed out that a lost race was not worth handing the election to the Repukes. The bicycle messengers of the world, though, just want to throw a tantrum.

[kentuck]

26. It's good to remember that a lot of Democrats voted for...

Richard Shelby, Ben Nighthorse Campbell, and Zell Miller also. Were they good "Democrats" when those people voted for them?? Hell, I raised money for Nighthorse Campbell at my house! I was betrayed right under my own roof.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

30. Zell gave a speech at the '92 democratic convention.

apparently, he must have changed over the years into the dueling man that he has become!

[Cocoa]

29. Joe Lieberman is no Bernie Sanders

and yes, I know you didn't mention Lieberman. :eyes:

[CollegeDUer]

32. Yes I didn't and I don't intend to

Because this isn't anything about that!

[damntexdem]

33. DU is a Democratic site, supporting Party candidates.

DUers, however, are of many types. Some waste their time cursing third-parties, and would apparently deny rights to third parties if they could.

[LostinVA]

42. I am a member of the DSA, but if there's a "D" on the ticket

It gets my vote. I wish we had a representative parliamentarian system... but we don't.

Bernie is supported by the STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. He is NOT a spoiler.

[CollegeDUer]

45. He's not a spoiler, he's a leader

And he did it by facing the Democrats until he beat them into just supporting him.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

35. The Vermont race is unusual to say the least

Mr. Sanders caucuses with the Democrats and the Democratic leaders in Vermont where actually gathering signatures to get him on the ballot as a Democrat. Last I knew there were three other hopefuls trying to take that slot. None of them have even a slim chance of being competitive, but it's their right to try. As it is now with the party still hoping he will take the slot I see no breach in DU rules in supporting him.

However, next month I would guess that per the DU rules one cannot openly support Sanders over a Dem candidate. That is assuming that one does exist after the primary.

That is confusing, isn't it?

[ComerPerro]

36. This isn't even remotely similar to the Lieberman thing

Lieberman consistantly votes with Republicans and supports Bush.

He won't even support his own party, and now he wonders why his party voted him out?

[CollegeDUer]

37. I'm not talking about Lieberman

I'm talking about independent leftists in general.

[OutNow]

40. Instant Runoff Voting

If we had instant runoff voting, casting your vote for a progressive would not help the Republican win. Should that occur, I can imagine a realignment of sorts, similar to the Japanese LDP, where the informal caucuses in Congress such as the Progressive Caucus, Blue Dog Caucus, etc. became mini-parties within the structure of the big tent Democratic Party.
The general election would be officially non partisan, and there would be several big D democrats running. You would select your first choice, second choice, etc. If your preferred candidate didn't come out on top, your vote would be assigned to your second choice, etc. until there was a winner.

http://www.fairvote.org/

[CollegeDUer]

41. Thanks for the link; glad to see IRV being implemented in many places

It's a great idea and democracy-friendly process.

[rug]

46. I would. He never ran as a Democrat in the first place.

A Democrat who would lose to him in a general election probably should lose.