islamic people fighting each other for centuries - I say prove it!

[donsu]

historians - is this true? have they been fighting each other for centuries? where is the evidence?

fighting meaning killing. (not non violent disagreements)

[bryant69]

1. I'm not a specialist in the middle east

But I would say it has the ring of truth - all peoples everywhere have been fighting for centures (except the swiss).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[gula]

9. You might want to read up on Swiss history. nt

[Bonhomme Richard]

2. I could just as easily say Europeans have.................

been fighting each other for centuries.
What's the point?

[Igel]

3. How about the Ottoman's

repressing the first Wahhabi uprising in the 1700s?

They've also done their fair share of oppressing non-Muslims, and of their own poor. Seek documents, not modern histories put out by the winners, or historians at least as concerned about image as facts.

People have said that Xian people fighting each other for centuries. I saw prove it! And the idea that they oppressed anybody ... poppycock. All the dead ... from bad beef. And Muslims.

In other words, again, seek documnents, not modern histories put out by the winners, or historians at least as concerned about image as facts.

Esp. when it runs contrary to what the interpretion in a religious framework seems to claim and require. We had this fight in the west decades back.

There's a Russian proverb: The devil isn't as black as they paint him. But it goes in reverse, too: Invariably the perfect and the good aren't as pure as they're painted.

[bryant69]

4. What's wrong with modern histories?

Kind of a stinging indictment of the historical profession.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Well, you did say "hundreds of years."

If you want something modern, how about the Iran Iraq war.

[bryant69]

7. Ah - i see what you mean

I took you to mean histories written by historians currently living - as opposed to histories of modern times.

I do agree you need to dig deeper than the last 30 years or so.

Bryant
Check ito ut --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Igel]

14. Sorry, I intended nothing of the sort.

At least no stinging indictment of the Western historical profession.

Older varieties of western history were paeans to the Church. Then they became paeans to the nation-state. Not always, but far too frequently. Bad things done by the Church (or State) were mentioned, minimized and in the best possible light, only when to leave them out would be too egregious. Fortunately, such histories are mostly dead as they concern the West or antiquity. I've seen people working in countries where the official line is "history serves our interests" who still follow this line of non-thinking, or who were so steeped in it that they can't break free. Translated stuff for a professor who wanted to show that the events in Aug. '68 were really quite reasonable, and not nearly as bad as thought. Another argued against accepting an endowed chair in Armenian studies: he said he'd been told that he and his students would have restricted access to Ottoman archives and Turkish sources if such a chair were endowed and the professor took the "Armenian genocide happened" line. The chair "must" be turned down; it was. A month later his Turkish government grant came in and he and some students went to Istanbul for a month. So this kind of distortion still happens, when countries that require distortion in their history are involved and researchers overvalue their ties to those countries.

Soviet history was of this ilk, until recent times. Nazi history was like this. Chinese history still mostly is. Presumably many Japanese historians toe the same line. Arab historians still do. History serves to glorify and justify the church-state. Hence questions like donsu's aren't unexpected. Internecine fighting among "good Muslims" would be a bad thing.

It's rather like asking in 1910 if "America had broken most of its treaties with the Indians and wrongfully deprived them of their lands." The question arouses indignation, since it's so contrary to what was commonly taught and believed.

[CollegeDUer]

6. The Weekend Historians are having a field day with Iraq

Their interpretations are borderline racist, saying this is just a result of muslim culture, etc. This can happen anywhere where the society is fractured with poverty, homelessness, occupation, war. It could and has happened in America.

[Jim__]

8. So have Christians.

The Hundred Years War, the Thirty Years War, etc. Long time ago? - Northern Ireland. WWI, WWII, etc.

[ComerPerro]

19. Christians have been killing each other ever since 33AD

[Botany]

10. The Irish have been fighting for a long time too.

so have hindu & muslims
so have hindu & sikhs
the English and French
the Swedes and Russia
the Turks and Greeks
the Basque and Spanish
the Sioux (Lakota) and the Crow
the Island peoples of the south Pacific
The Tutsis and the Hutu

[sui generis]

11. high priests everywhere have fought

other kings and high priests, most often to the death.

Organized religion hates secular rule on principle. The mullahs and deacons and bishops and popes and elders and high priests and grand wizards have all ascended to leadership and power by perpetuating their sectarian beliefs on gullible people.

Kings have always rightly distrusted priests, but the true abomination of power is the Holy King, the Holy Emperor the God-King.

I think technically that the in the nomadic and semi-nomadic tribal origins of the Sahara, Sonora and Sinai regions meant that they were in constant conflict over things as mundane as water rights, goat-rustling, and premium spaces at the market that probably long predated Islam.

Then again, not so different from pre- or post-christian Europe. Nobody gets any points for being innately superior, considering that Islam never had anything as sick as the Inquisition, nor burned/executed over 125,000 "witches" in 100 years in the middle ages in Europe.

Just the same, I probably hold all organized religion in equal contempt.

[gula]

12. Why should they be different from anybody else?

The world's history is littered with wars, conquests, repression if not the killing off of minorities.

[damntexdem]

13. Christian people have been fighting each other for millenia.

There's no need to prove or disprove any general statement like this. People have been fighting people for millenia; and they have most often fight close neighbors. After all, what close neighbors do is likely to be most important to one, so there is more reason to fight; and close neighbors have presented the greatest opportunity to fight: simpler logistics. The kicker: close neighbors MAY be more likely to generally share one's own religion.

So, Islamic people have been fighting each other for well over a millenia. In fact, long before he crossed swords with the Crusaders, Saladin (a Kurd) destroyed the (Shia) Fatamid Dynasty in Egypt, engaged in a little ethnic cleansing, and left Egypt solidly Sunni. Ooh, Islamic people fighting each other! Meanwhile, when Christian England and France weren't engaging in Crusades against Islam (and sometimes during those Crusades), they were at each other's throats -- or sacking (Orthodox Christian) Byzantium.

[donsu]

15. I asked this question because right wingers say it all the time

as in - it's ok to kill them because they kill each other all the time.

or as in - democracy won't work with them because they fight with each other since the beginning of time, etc.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Even if true, they're small potatos at murder compared to Christians.

Just a couple of examples.

WWII in Europe was conducted by Christians against Christians - 44,000,000 deaths.

Rwanda, Hutu Christians vs Tutsi Christians - 1,000,000 deaths

[cali]

17. It's just pathetic

to try and make these kinds of measurements- about Christians or Muslims or anyone else. Everyone's been fighting and killing for centuries, with the exception of a very few cultures. You name the Hutu/Tutsi conflict, I can cite Cambodia- obviously not xian. Or how about the Turks' genocide of the Armenians- Muslims killing Christians. Not to mention the Japanese in WWII.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. They're all killing for one God or another.

And, all proclaiming that God, or the betterment of mankind, or morality, or security, or patriotism, or any of the usual excuses for slaughtering their fellow humans justifies the murders.

The Christian segment has just been more efficient at it than the others.

[cali]

33. WWII

was not about religion- certainly not chiefly about religion, and I'd contend that you're wrong about "the Christian segment" having been more efficient. For that matter, Cambodia wasn't about religion, and neither did Stalin kill for Christianity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. Most of the participants in the European theater were Christians.

Including the average Russian soldiers.

I'm not saying that WWII or Cambodia or Rwanda or the Civil War, for that matter, were "about" religion. What I'm saying is that most of the participants in the slaughter were avowedly religionists of one stripe or another. And, I might add, that that the Abrahamic religions explicitly call for the slaughter of "heathens", "infidels", "pagans", "witches", etc.

You can debate, I suppose, about "good" Christians, "good" Muslims, "good" Buddhists, "good" Hindus, even, "good" atheists. But, the fact remains that the people doing the actual killing were usually of one religion or another and had few qualms about murdering each other.

Fighting for "God and Country" ring any bells? The German soldiers in WWII wore belt buckles that said, "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

[cali]

38. Sorry,

the fact that most people belong to a religion is pretty meaningless in this context.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. You must have missed the OP.

"Islamic people have been fighting each other for centuries"

Which seems to put the matter in a certain context.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

20. Can you please provide a convincing argument

that WWII was a "Christian" war, as you seem to imply? I would be very interested to hear about that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Well, Hitler started it.

He was a Christian. So were his followers.

And then there was Mussolini. Also a Christian.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of western Europe at the time was Christian.

Notice he did specify the European theater.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

25. So Christians participating makes it a Christian war.. Got it. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. And, your interpretation is?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Sure.

In the same way muslims committing acts of terrorism are "muslim terrorists."

[winter999]

32. The point you miss is that Muslim Terrorists

spread Terror in the name of God.

[stepnw1f]

35. And Bush and His People Don't?

Boy.... And all that bullshit rhetoric from the right wing and Bush admin about God being on their side.... hmmmmmm. Guess they didn't mean it.

[winter999]

42. And do you hear people in this country screaming "God is Great"

whenever we kill someone? In the Leadership or Military? How often do you see Westerners burning Islamic flags in the streets or calling for the a country (any country) to be wiped off the map?

We kill for much more basic reasons - "democracy", "terrorism", "capitalism", "imperialism", or even "preemptive strike", but not "God wills It".

[stepnw1f]

43. Bullshit! Don't Equate a Whole Country

with a bunch of extremists or you may have to in the mirror before you start spouting Rushlimpball language. I am well aware of there being extremists who follow Islam, but I am also aware of the nut bags here.... are you one? Because you seem to have a hard time admitting that we do. It's a big problem and we need everyone to deal with it or else we will look like the Middle East. Actually, we are already starting to....

BTW .... you do realize Bush's daddy and the GOP have been supporting radical extremists in the Middle East for over 20 years? I'm afraid of the leaders we have now, who are closely aligned with the party daddy Bush belongs to. These people create terrorists, inflame terrorism then tell us to kill them and to be scared. Open your eyes already.

"Please, please.... save me from the boogey man... take away my right too...!"

[Ravenseye]

44. Your ignorance is showing

Saying "Allahu Akbar" aka "God is Great" is a reflexive statement. Like someone saying "Jesus Christ!" when they're scared. I say that and I'm not even Christian.

As far as seeing westernerns burning flags and calling for countries to be wiped off the map...were you around after 9/11 when every other commentator was calling for nuking the entire middle east, or Ann Coulter's calling for us to kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity?

The only thing our country is killing for is money and power. Don't kid yourself.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. This, in my estimation, is a stupid point.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. And, we spread it in the name of "democracy".

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Most of the participants in Europe and many in Asia were Christians.

What else do you need?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. True, but don't forget the Armenian genocide?

The Turks killed over a million Armenians, a lot more than a million by some sources - hardly small potatoes.

[shadowknows69]

18. and white people haven't been?

n/t

[Xithras]

24. Of course they have.

Most of the wars break down by ethnic, not religious lines though. It tends to be the Turks vs. the Arabs, the Arabs vs. the Persians, the Persians vs. the Turks, that sort of thing. Just like the Christians in Europe, religion was simply used as a motivator to get the people to fight. Instead of "Slaughter the apostates and heretics in the name of God and Country!", it was "Slaughter the infidels in the name of Allah and tribe!". Same tune, different words.

But yes, there have been some horrific wars in the middle east between Muslims.

[Tyler Durden]

26. The whole world is festering with unhappy souls,

The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch,
And I don't like anybody very much.

They're rioting in Africa, there's strife in Iran,
What Nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

[devilgrrl]

27. Dude, violence is the only thing they understand!

Where have you been? :sarcasm:

[Tyler Durden]

29. The whole world is festering with unhappy souls,

The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch,
And I don't like anybody very much.

They're rioting in Africa, there's strife in Iran,
What Nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

[FUGW]

30. Thats about as true as the belief that native Americans were savages.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. I don't know enough about native American history to comment on that.

But it's certainly completely true that Muslims, like every other culture (or group of cultures, to be more accurate) have been fighting and killing, and being fought and killed by, one another and followers of other religions for as long as there have been Muslims.

Whether historically Islamic cultures have been on average noticeably more or less militant that others I have no idea; I suspect it's material for a PhD thesis rather than an internet discussion.

[ItNerd4life]

34. It's easily proved. You're making the wrong assumption

Christians have been doing it for thousands of years. Muslims fanatics just learned how to do it from Christians.

Christians eventually stopped. So we just have to be patient and give the Muslim fanatics another 1000 years or so, and they will probably stop on their own.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. If you mean Muslims in the Middle East,

Most of the Arab-Muslim world was inside the Ottoman Empire for most of the last several centuries. The Ottoman Empire was largely wrapped up in fighting Christians in Eastern Europe. There may have been rebellions or civil unrest in the Middle East, but nothing on the scale of the post-Ottoman wars. The crisis in the Middle East today is largely the result of the end of the Empire and Western interference in the construction of post-imperial states.