Most Muslims view the word "Islamofascist" as an insult to all Muslims

[BurtWorm]

For good reason: It's meant to convey no more information than an insult.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_08/009372.php

ISLAMOFASCISM....Spencer Ackerman spent last week visiting the Muslim community in Dearborn, Michigan, and comes back with a news flash for the president about the term "Islamofascist":

Practically everyone I've spoken with in Dearborn, from oncologists to students to clerics, brings up the term unprompted to explain how they feel themselves under collective suspicion from the Justice Department, a tone they feel Bush has set himself by using the phrase.

....Last week in the Weekly Standard, the apparent inventor of the phrase, Stephen Schwartz, dismissed those who'd be offended by "Islamofascism" as "primitive Muslims." That should tell you all you need to know about those who use the term. I confess to using it, if ironically, in a recent piece, and here in Dearborn I learned precisely why you and I shouldn't. The people it infuriates aren't primitive. They're the moderate, pro-American, well-integrated Muslims who form one of the greatest bulwarks against Al Qaeda that the U.S. possesses, and they see the term as draining their Americanness away.

It's remarkable that anyone needs to be told this, but obviously they do. So now they've been told. And I have some advice of my own for George Bush: you should probably avoid any phrase that's used primarily in the fever swamps of the hawkish blogosphere. Following their lead will merely dig you into an even deeper hole than you've already dug all by yourself.

[treestar]

1. One group it is OK to hate

The freepers are really enjoying it.

They can hate a group without apparent lack of political correctness. (About which they are forever whining when called on their racist remarks).

It could arguably refer only to extremist Muslims, but it is obvious the average idiot applies it to all Muslims.

[ComerPerro]

36. In this country, it is perfectly ok to openly hate

muslims, hispanics (especially if you group them as "Mexicans"), and homosexuals.

[ChicagoRonin]

2. Old habits die hard

WWII ended 61 years ago, and you wouldn't believe the number of clueless folks I meet who still utter "Jap" or "Nip" around me like it's A-OK.

[bryant69]

3. It's interesting

It's code - defenders of the phrase would claim that it's meant to distinguish between terrorists and "good" Muslims. On the other hand they also go on about the clash of civilizations we are engaged in and how we will never get along. So it's hard to take them at their word.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Q. You know what they used to call Christian Fascists?

A. Fascists

[wicket]

5. It's a stupid, hateful term invented by the right-wing bloggers &

....conservative media.

And I have some advice of my own for George Bush: you should probably avoid any phrase that's used primarily in the fever swamps of the hawkish blogosphere.

Amen to that Burt!!!

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. and some fringe Democrats like Peter Beinart of the New Republic

:eyes:

[Xithras]

24. Actually, the term was kind of invented by US on the left.

Sometime in the late 90's many on the left started referring to Christian fundies as Christofascists because of their hardline opposition to abortion and gay rights based on their biblical beliefs. The conservatives simply perverted the term into Islamofascists after 9/11.

[Igel]

6. People lose their linguistic competence when religion

and ideology come into play, don't they?

They can't parse "illegal immigrant".

And they assume that "Italian fascist" would necessarily mean all Italians were fascists.

Fine. Call them "Islamic supremacists". I frequently do. With the caveat that all others are to submit to the supremacists in their intepretation as to how others should submit to their deity, whether it be some version of Allah, some Muhammed-variant, or some human.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. mmhmm.

As if the people who use the word "islamofascists" don't hold the entire religion in disdain.

[Igel]

25. Some do.

Some don't.

I have no illusions that many that use it in common discourse want to think that Islam is inherently evil. Just like those that used the word "Jew" where I grew up thought of all Jews as bad--so much so that "Jew" was a term of abuse; we had no real Jews in the area. But many of those that use the term 'Islamofascist' or 'Islamic fascist' most publicly don't use it to imply that all Islams are bad.

In fact, the person who first used the term, wrt the Iranian "Islamic revolutionaries" in the late '70s and early '80s, and the Rushdie fatwa, was trying to draw a very large distinction between the average Muslim and Islamic fascists, those who took their version of Islam as the basis for a repressive, totalitarian, all-controlling state that placed the state/nation/ummah above the people, and ideology above freedom and privacy.

I try to restrict my brush usage to only narrow ones. Sometimes I grab the wrong one. In this case, I'll kowtow to those who want to misinterpret what people say because they're narrow minded and xenophobic and are proud at how they can misunderstand English morphosyntax. Hence "Islamic supremacist", although I slip and use the verboten "Islamofascist" sometimes.

But I have no illusions that most people that believe themselves to be Muslims actually care what I mean by the term. They already have the matter prejudged.

[winter999]

26. I use "islamofascists" because

they are Islamic and they are Fascist. I distinguish them from Muslims.

You can term the Arian Nation as Christoracists but you would not consider all Christians to be Racist. It is unfortunate and unfair to Muslims to have 99.9% of these terrorists to be Islamic and killing in the name of God.

[stepnw1f]

30. because Fox News Told You To... (nt)

[winter999]

38. No. Because my reasoning led me to that conclusion.

I don't need to be spoon-fed my beliefs, thank you.
Besides, who here believes anything Fox Gnews "reports"?

[stepnw1f]

48. Reasoning with ?

Look up the definition of fascism.

[BurtWorm]

40. What makes them "fascist," specifically?

[malaise]

43. Maybe you should study the meaning

of the word fascist.

[The Stranger]

20. That's really disingenuous.

Italian fascists aren't public enemy number one, the "Other" created by the Neconservatives for their endless war, and the subject of a change of civil rights laws in the U.S. never before even considered -- ever anywhere.

The fact that the notion of "supremacy" is how you refer to them is really the truth teller.

[Igel]

28. I've read a fair amount of what they've written.

They openly state that Islam is superior--even so-called moderate publications such as Arab News will print sermons calling Xianity and Judaism "inferior".

Such people exist. We have no problem saying that when they're Xian; but at soon as they're non-Xian, the "Other" must be justified and rendered blameless, lest it actually come in for just criticism. One popular current view is that the "Other" must be proximal, and never distal. There's no valid reason for this, but people hold it as firmly as they ever would hold a priest's blessing with two fingers instead of three to be the only right way. In things secular I'm no Starover, 'Old Believer', but neither am I a modernizer.

What I was getting at is the idea of a paradigm. We're used to paradigms for verb conjugations: "I work, thou workest, he/she/it works, we work ..."; past tense "I worked, thou workedst, he/she/it worked...". And we find it useful for identifying irregularities (past tense "I put, thou puttest, he/she/it put").

Other aspects of grammar fall into paradigms. Word formation, compounding, even whole sentences. Sometimes change happens when native speakers put things in the wrong paradigm: "ride" and "dive" got put in the same paradigm as "stride", so the older "I rided" is now only "I rode" and "I dived" is now, for many people, "I dove". Paradigms assist in finding irregularities, but also asymmetries.

"Islamic fascist" is in the same paradigm as "Italian fascist": it serves to identify a subset of fascists, those that have the attribute "Italian". "Islamic fascist" is akin to it; it serves to identify those fascists that have the attribute "Islamic". Just as "Italian fascist" doesn't slur all Italians, so "Islamic fascist" doesn't slur Islam. I reject the asymmetry. Neither side should engage in such asymmetries, unless they want to luxuriate in fallacy and hypocrisy, or they're trying to score Orwellian points and paint the other as "Other". Those that engage in the former don't deserve serious attention; those that engage in the latter require attention, just as termites require attention.

As I said, when ideology and religion get involved, through out all linguistic competence. (The distinction here isn't between linguistic 'competence' and 'incompetence', but between 'competence' and 'performance', per Chomsky.)

[NNN0LHI]

8. I see it used around here too. I wish it would stop n/t

[BurtWorm]

9. The fact that Christopher Hitchens tosses it around with such relish

ought to warn any sane person off of it. And if that weren't enough, Bush's use of it should finish it off entirely. The use of the word is a (Republican) political statement.

[NNN0LHI]

14. First time I heard it Lou Dobbs used it

That was good enough for me.

Don

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Wasn't Lou Dobbs the one...

who coined the "islamist" solecism?

[BurtWorm]

17. Apparently not. Apparently it was Stephen Schwartz of the Weekly Standard.

Something for him to be very proud of, I'm sure. :eyes:

[winter999]

27. And what would be a better term?

[BurtWorm]

41. Islamists is the first term I heard.

Jihadist is another one.

[warrens]

10. A fascist should not be calling someone else fascist

And you can't call an entire PEOPLE fascist. It is a political, not cultural, term, and it has a specific meaning. The reason the right wing is using this term is they don't want to use the term fundamentalist wackos, since many of their supporters are Xtian fundamentalist wackos.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Silly, ain't it.

I can't figure out how you can have Fascism without Nationalism, and the term Islamofascist is often used to refer to Al Qaeda which is known for being a nation-less, borderless, clandestine group.

[malaise]

44. Bingo - it's an attempt by fascists to spin

a serious word which describes them. The concept does not exist and semi-literate Bush won't invent concepts for me.

[Junkdrawer]

11. A commentator on NPR used it this morning. The interviewer's response...

showed agreement. It's a term that's being injected into our common language in preparation for a wider ME conflict which will include Iran.

[Solly Mack]

12. As well they should

Islamofascist is a neologism meant to marginalize and dehumanize
Posted by Solly Mack in General Discussion
Fri Aug 04th 2006, 11:10 AM

a group of people for the purposes of shaping public opinion, by conflating a negative attribute with a neutral attribute, that is then portrayed as an inherent component of that group of people - so that attacks on that group of people are more readily accepted. Making it easier to subvert the rights of that group of people,and to even kill them.


Islamofascist is not the only word, term or phrase used in this manner either.

[azurnoir]

16. Odd what has become considered acceptable

While never seen having the term Islamofacist used here on DU, I've seen plenty of sweeping statements such as "Muslim men treat their women terribly" or "Funny, I don't remember mass protests in the streets after 9/11 denouncing radical Islam by peace loving Muslims in America. I'm not saying there were not reasoned voices speaking, but not nearly enough."I expect American Muslims to recoil at the violence as they did after 9/11." and at least one reply "i agree with you there. i only remembed seeing muslims in this country and other countries clapping and cheering".
The point here is that if these kind of sentiment is appearing here and seems so accepted the hatered against Islam is widespread not just a "wingnut" phenomenon. Particularly disturbing is the concept that American Muslims somehow needed to apologize or denounce the attacks on 9/11, the entire country across all political spectrum's turned to American Muslims and said "Are you one them or one of us" as though just because there was some question, I can not think of another group since the Japanese were an attack by foreign nationals caused those Americans who are similar in ethnicity or religion to have to somehow "prove" themselves to be loyal. Apparently America has not grown-up as much as I thought. The very fact that this sentiment is accepted here is a sign of how much danger American Muslims are in. If there were to be another 9/11 would US Muslims be subject to the same treatment as the Japanese during WW2 , it is far more possible than some think.

Note to Mods- I pull the comments s from a DU threads without posting the thread because I was targeting the concept of the comments not posters who made them

[The2ndWheel]

18. We need to stop letting language control us

It's funny to think that whether you ban a word, find a word insulting, or use a word to make someone hate someone else by simply using that word, it's all about control. It's amazing the grip that it has on all of us.

[TheFriedPiper]

19. muslims, christians, jews, all the same

all replace reason with faith and facts with myths

a fascist is a fascist is a fascist, it doesn't really matter what phony diety they use to lend credibility to their fascism

[Cleita]

21. They are right.

Those who want Islamic republics are theocrats not fascists, which is corporatism. Neither are good, nor lead to a good place but again we see that President Bush has been fed pap that he doesn't understand to feed to the world. Probably, if he called them theocrats, they wouldn't disagree nor be offended because that's what they believe in.

[Douglas Carpenter]

23. the term was contrived for the purpose of enticing racism

certainly not to develop an understanding of the various schools of political Islam

[Jack Rabbit]

29. I'd like to defend the word (he dons his flame retardant suit)

I've used the word and in it's context no offense was intended to all Muslims.

Of course, it can be misused. I'm not interested in ignorant freepers who don't know the difference between a Sufi mendicant and Osama bin Laden.

A greater insult to Muslims, and a greater danger to all of us, than to use a term like Islamofascism would be to not have such a word and not know what one is talking about when one uses the world Muslim. After all, Osama is a criminal and a threat to peace; a Sufi mendicant isn't a threat at all. There is a difference. To do otherwise would make Muslim an Orwellian term used to easily tar the innocent and the guilty with the same brush.

To begin with, what is meant by Islamofascism? I would define Islamofascism as a belief that Islam should hold a special, exalted place in a social hierarchy and that its sanctity be enforced with the coercive power of the state. It should also be added that the coercion of which I speak take on the nature of an infringement on civil liberties and human rights or an extreme penalty that doesn't fit the crime, such as capital punishment for adultery. This is something that goes beyond a benign Church-state relationship such as exists in many European countries, where the state funnels public funds into religious institutions to perform the charitable work religious institutions do so well.

We progressives have had occasion to decry such violations of human rights carried out in the name of Islam over the last several years. There is no reason to stand still when a Nigerian woman faces death by stoning after delivering a child out of wedlock. We should not be silent when a man faces the death penalty for converting to another religion. Homosexuality is a capital crime in Iran. The day-to-day oppression of women in Saudi Arabia is not something to excuse.

I would never call Iran a democracy as long as a committee of twelve stuffy old men is allowed to decide who is sufficiently Islamic enough to run for public office. While the level of real oppression in Iran waxes and wanes over time, the tools for oppression are always in place. Afghanistan under the Taliban is a more extreme form of what could be characterized as Islamofascism. Would anybody disagree with calling Afghanistan under the Taliban a fascist state?

We cannot and do not tolerate an American government taking oppressive measures in the name of Christ. We get very uncomfortable with Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson proposing oppressive legislation to make America the pure, Christian state they imagine it once was. We wouldn't hesitate to use the word fascist to characterize some of these proposals. If we do not give license to a Bible-thumping preacher advocating the revocation of women's rights and the oppression of gays in our midst, why should we give the same license to a Koran-thumping Mullah advocating exactly the same thing?

Would it be an insult all Christians to coin a term to describe the kind of relationship people like Falwell and Robertson believe the state ought to have with right wing Christian preachers and their doctrines, or would it be a greater insult not to distinguish the majority of Christians who don't hold those views from those who do?

The nature of Orwellian language is to eliminate words so that precise, rational discourse is impossible. To not use a word like Islamofascist would play into the hands of the bigots who would have us believe that all Muslims are Islamic fundamentalist and all Islamic fundamentalists are terrorists ready to murder anybody who won't convert to Islam.

I will continue to use the word and I am further resolved to use it only in a context where it clearly denotes an oppressive philosophy that is more fascist than Islamic and makes clear that not all Muslims are fascists.

[BurtWorm]

33. What you're describing already has a name: Islamism.

Even jihadism is a more accurate term. Fascism, as someone pointed out above, is not mere tyranny. It's a specific kind of tyranny, and though it coopts religion to its purposes, it isn't theocratic. Islamofascism is a language corrupting misnomer.

Please use a different word.

[Jack Rabbit]

35. I don't quite agree

While fascism is not necessarily theocratic, it could still use religion as the unifying and distinguishing feature of the socio-political hierarchy.

Fascism is a hierarchical system, and thus necessarily anti-democratic. Hitler's fascism was based on race; one's fitness to rule was based on how Aryan one was. It is, of course, perfectly plausible to substitute religion for race in the socio-political hierarchy.

Note that I say that a state is fascist, the religion per se is no more fascist than the race. Only a state can impose police power. When a state uses that power to maintain a rigid social hierarchy in which political power rests in the hands of a favored group, that is fascism. That group can be a religious community of some kind, people with certain racial characteristics, those who have demonstrated valor in war (note the similarities between Mussolini's fascism and the world created by Heinlein in Starship Troopers) or socio-economic (I would characterize Neil Boortz' idea of allocating votes by personal wealth or income as proto-fascist).

Thus, it seems we can arrive at a definition of Islamofascism as use of police power to impose a social hierarchy based on adherence to Islam as defined by those in power.

[BurtWorm]

39. Not really. Fascism is a specific kind of political agenda.

For what it's worth, here's the wikipedia definition, which I cite mainly because of it's citations of other definitions within it. While Islamism seems to share a lot of tenets with fascism (a desire for purity and the ideal as a means of repairing a sense of humiliation with respect to outside enemies, for example), it doesn't share some key ingredients, like concentration of authority and political power in the hands of a single dictator and, most important I think, a cooptation of the capitalist economy (which is antithetical to Islamism, which views capitalism as "occidental"). Fascism viewed itself as a continuation and completion of 19th century political philosophy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definition

Many diverse regimes have self-identified as fascist, and defining fascism has proved complicated and contentious. Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in long and furious debates concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets. Since the 1990s, however, there has been a growing move toward some rough consensus reflected in the work of Stanley Payne, Roger Eatwell, Roger Griffin, and Robert O. Paxton. See Fascism and ideology.

The word "fascism" comes from fascio (plural: fasci), which may mean "bundle," as in a political or militant group or a nation, but also from the fasces (rods bundled around an axe), which were an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of magistrates. The Italian Fascisti were also known as Black Shirts for their style of uniform incorporating a black shirt (See Also: political colour).

Merriam-Webster defines fascism as "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"<1>.

A recent definition is that by Robert O. Paxton:

"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." <2>

Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism. He said in The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism:

"Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century. If the 19th century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the 'collective' century, and therefore the century of the State." <1>

Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.

Stanley Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition (1980) uses a lengthy itemized list of characteristics to identify fascism, including the creation of an authoritarian state; a regulated, state-integrated economic sector; fascist symbolism; anti-liberalism; anti-communism <3>. A similar strategy was employed by semiotician Umberto Eco in his popular essay Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt<4>. More recently, an emphasis has been placed upon the aspect of populist fascist rhetoric that argues for a "re-birth" of a conflated nation and ethnic people<5>.

Most scholars hold that fascism as a social movement employs elements from the political left, but many conclude that fascism eventually allies with the political right, especially after attaining state power. This is even more complicated when discussing Nazism, which as a socio-political movement began as a form of National Socialism, but altered its character once Hitler was handed state power in Germany. See: Fascism and ideology.

Fascism has expressed itself through both political and economic practices, and academics have examined these elements both together and in isolation. Hannah Arendt, whose focus is largely political, argues that regimes commonly thought of as fascist, such as Nazism, belong to a larger category of totalitarianisms <6>. Thayer Watkins, a professor of Economics from San José State University, identifies fascism as aligned with corporatism, a form of economic oppression that he argues includes most of the world's governments<7>. Watkins, who some accuse of being out of step with the academic mainstream, considers Mussolini's Fascist regime to be merely one example of the corporatist states that emerged during the Great Depression, including such diverse political systems as that of Spain, Argentina and the United States. See Fascism and ideology and Economics of fascism.

After the defeat of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany in World War II, the term has taken on an extremely pejorative meaning, largely in reaction to the crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis. Today, very few groups proclaim themselves fascist, and the term is often used to describe individuals or political groups who are perceived to behave in an authoritarian or totalitarian manner; by silencing opposition, judging personal behavior, promoting racism, or otherwise attempting to concentrate power and create hate towards the "enemies of the state". Because of the term's use as a pejorative, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding the question of what political movements and governments belong to fascism.

[Jack Rabbit]

45. Again, I don't quite agree

Fascism is not an exclusively occidental phenomenon. Among the nations that open embraced fascism in the thirties were Japan and China. Chiang Kai-shek went to ridiculous lengths to immitate the Italian and German models, such as organizing a paramilitary outfit called the "Blue Shirts".

One of the things that should be emphasized is that classical fascism is a thing of the past. Here are some thoughts I have on calssical fascism as opposed to the modern variety:

The Rise of Yuppie Fascism
Part One (Democratic Underground, February 5, 2002
Part Two (Democratic Underground, February 12, 2002

[BurtWorm]

47. The Chinese and Japanese fascists were influenced by Germans and

Italians. Not so the Islamists.

No question, Islamism and fascism are reactionary. But Islamism is medieval and profoundly anti-progressive. Fascism, in Italy especially, on the other hand, worshipped the machine.

What it boils down to for me, Jack Rabbit, is the neocon origin of the term "Islamofascist." It's meant to invoke World War II, to try to put the "war against terrorism" on equal footing with "The Good War." It's a propagandist term. If it's offensive to Muslims in general, why use it when there's a perfectly fine stable of words that are more accurate and less offensive?

[Jack Rabbit]

49. I would challenge that., too. However . . .

I am using the definition of fascism provided by G. M. Tomas as a resistence to universal citizenship. We see in the Bush regime to separate fascist strains in coalition with each other: the Christian right, which very much resembles their Islamic counterparts in the Middle East and South Asia; and the neoconservatives. The first group would deny equal rights to gays and, to a lesser degree, women in the United States. The neoconservatives see Americans as the privileged group in a fascist hierarchy and would deny universal world citizenship to people in developing countries in order to promote "the American way of life", which, as Bush the Preppy declared, is "nonnegotiable." To neoconservatives, that means the US has the right to go to war to secure other people's natural resources so that Americans can drive gas guzzlers and US corporations can profit from that kind of waste.

I digress. The issue is whether the Islamic religious right is a fascist movement. I would contend that it is by the definition furnished by Professor Tomas. I would contend that if the Christian right in America is a fascist movement because they would restrict the civic rights of women and gays, then so is the religious right in Islamic countries for exactly the same reason.

However, your point is made. There is nothing to be gained by quibbling about semantics. We know what Osama bin Laden is and we know what Iranian mullahs are: something to be defeated because they reject the concept of universal citizenship.

If by giving up the term Islamofascism I can better fight what is denoted by it, then by all means I shall give it up.

[stepnw1f]

31. Absolutely Ridiculous Term

More right wing psuedo educated twisting of the english language. Look up the definition of fascism (corporate control of government). Fucking right wing idiots!

The only fascists are they, themselves.

[Radical Activist]

32. wow. almost hard to believe.

:eyes:
I bet they don't like wars against muslim countries being called a "crusade" either. How on earth could anyone have known?

[cali]

34. I have no use for the word myself

but I'm really tired of how taboo it is to criticize anything to do with Islam; whether it's Iran and Ahmadinejad or H'zbollah. There's plenty there to criticize, but everytime someone on this board does so, they're always met with righteous indignation and claims about how much worse the U.S. is or Israel is or whatever. That shouldn't be the case.

[Odin2005]

37. It shows a lack of understanding of what Fascism is.

Fascism is a RADICAL ideology that wants to create a totalitarian collectivist society that is "beyond Liberal Democracy." Islamism is a REACTIONARY idiology, Islamists they want to keep thier society "pre-Liberal Democratic."

The term Islamofascism just just the next meme that uses fascism as a term of abuse to stifle disscussion, it is about preventing a discussion on the root causes of Islamism because that would be bad for the profits of the Millitary-Indistrial Complex and the House of Saud.

The Pukes are also using the term out of FDR envy.

[BurtWorm]

42. "FDR envy" is right on.

It's meant to evoke the World War II--the good war.

[Odin2005]

46. Yep, the Pukes want a turn at being the saviors of the world.

[cyberpj]

50. And Bush's using it gives them every right to use Christofascists. nt