The Levees were bombed again.

[Solomon]

In Spike Lee's documentary about Katrina he makes no argument over whether the levees were bombed. He shows people who say they heard the explosions, and he shows people who say the "explosions" were just "normal" sounds of a hurricane.

But after seeing that graphic of the map and the way the flooding progressed in New Orleans, I'm finally convinced the levees were bombed.

The flooding clearly started in an upper area of New Orleans and when it started to look pretty bad, down come the levees and the lower ninth ward gets a bath.

Nothing that anyone said. It was the graphic of that map. It was done at least twice before in the past. It was done again.

The other significant thing about the documentary is the way Spike had to go to foreign news about the matter to show us things our own media wouldn't do. That made me a little angry that to get real news we now have to look elsewhere. We are clearly being spoon fed every day by our media. Just like we are alzheimer's patients who can't hold a spoon or fork.

[VolcanoJen]

1. I'm so looking forward to watching this

I've got HBO, but I work nights and just got off. I Tivo'd tonight's show and will do the same for tomorrow's; plan on setting four hours aside and watching it in full.

I think this documentary comes right in time... my emotions are raw and I'm not sure it will be fun, but I'll never forget those days, and this seems like a right time to revisit. To examine. To seek truth.

[calimary]

168. I'm just glad it's coming out, and gonna make some noise.

And some serious stink (I hope). Because you know the bad guys are gonna shove all their September 11th anniversary crap up our asses til it comes out through our ears and tear ducts. Hopefully this will blunt the impact a little. And it's something America needs to be reminded about, thank you very much.

[EFerrari]

2. That map was helpful in understanding where the breaches happened

What I don't understand about the bombing theory is who who actually do something like that?

[w4rma]

3. I'm not convinced of any bombing, but as to who would do that:

There are plenty of people who are on a jihad against poor people and/or black people and/or other minorities.

Heck I bet at least 20% of the Freakrepublic posters would be more than happy to help to "purify" America in such a way.

[EFerrari]

4. Yeah, but they'd have to ge dressed and leave the basement.

What I mean is, if the notion is to release water into poor hoods to save moneyed ones, who would make the call? Who would have the means and opportunity, especially in that city at that moment?

[rosesaylavee]

19. great understatement...

"Yeah, but they'd have to ge dressed and leave the basement" I had a great visual when I read that of them dragging themselves up the stairs...

:rofl:

[w4rma]

34. Funny, but unfortunately alot of major Republican players post

and lurk on Freakrepublic in addition to the slobs. Don't underestimate these people.

[dddem]

7. sadly, i think it's more about economics

than anything. it has less to do with what color poor people are, and more to do with the color of money.

[Horse with no Name]

90. Exactly.

And that was the point Spike Lee was trying to make in this documentary.
It was a class thing, not a race thing.

[EFerrari]

95. I don't know that I agree with him on that point. And, weirdly,

for me it works just like election fraud. Mark Crispin Miller said, "We're all black now" meaning that it's now possible for any of us to have our vote suppressed or stolen in the same ways the Black community has been battling all these years.

The images of Katrina are largely of black people, whether that is right or not. And in some way, the Republican regime's criminal disregard for the whole Gulf Coast was facilitated by that. (I don't know if this says what I think it says.)

[Horse with no Name]

97. I don't think there was an differentiation in poor white people and poor

black people at the point the hurricane hit (rescue efforts), however, the point that needs to be addressed is WHY there was an overwhelming ratio of poor black people.
Now AFTER the storm, there was downright racial bias...thinking mainly of the people who tried to cross the bridge and were turned back, then the black lady that was staying in a hotel and went to her trunk to retrieve food that she had purchased and was thrown in jail for looting, and then the AP/UPI photos of the black people looting, while the white people were just taking needed supplies (I can't remember the terminology used).
Racism DID definitely rear its ugly head.

[uppityperson]

107. Racism and classism. And a lot of classism is set up by historic racism.

[ananda]

127. Racism is a subset of classism.

To keep the poor in their place, the owning class
plays off the prejudices and biases of the people
to keep them divided. This includes the idea that
white is better.

How many Black people absolutely obsess over
making their hair look un-nappy or un-Black?
How many oppress each other over relatively
lighter skin color? That's how they internalize
the White oppression and then use it against
their own.

Women do this to... with rivalries over men and
looks and social status.

Then we are all conditioned towards homophobia,
and we treat children as less than human; and don't
get me started on ageism and the way we think about
and treat the elders.

All this ism and hate keeps people divided and the
class system in place.

Racism is a key ingredient, but not the only one.

Anyway, with people divided, it's a lot harder to organize
for change.

Sue

[SmokingJacket]

103. Perhaps, but don't underestimate the enormous racism that

exists in some pockets of some areas. I mean, there's racism all over, but until I lived in rural Louisiana, I had **no idea** that so many people had such terribly vicious feelings about blacks.

I was shocked and horrified. Many people are STILL pissed about integration, 40 years later. The Klan is still active.

(And at the same time, there were places -- esp. in NO -- where people of different races lived more harmoniously than anywhere I'd ever seen.)

[Cooley Hurd]

5. In the 1927 hurricane, the levees were dynamited to prevent flooding...

...in the rich neighborhoods (evidently, they flooded the poor neighborhoods to save the rich ones). From a civil engineering standpoint, I'm not quite sure how flooding one neighborhood would save another.:shrug:

There was speculation that they did they same thing during Hurricane Betsy in 1965. I guess it isn't much of a stretch to think they might've done the same thing during Katrina. :(

[EFerrari]

9. I heard part of the congressional testimony that a few witnessess

gave. They are absolutley conviced this happened.

I just can't figure how out who or how this might be accomplished. The whole city was in chaos.

[Poppyseedman]

13. Having lived though Hurricane Andrew

It's easy as pie handling extremely dangerous explosions while trying to stand up against wind and rain.

The 80 - 120 mile an hour wind gusts and torrential sheets of rain pelting you are perfect cover for setting explosive charges :evilgrin:

[Horse with no Name]

91. This is the thing

The levees went the morning AFTER the storm passed.
It is kind of an important point.

[EFerrari]

92. That's right. Not during the storm. n/t

[nashville_brook]

102. people thought they were safe -- the storm had PASSED

[Tin Man]

11. The April 1927 flood wasn't from a hurricane, but record rains in Midwest

...heavy rains fell for months upriver throughout the Mississippi Basin of the Midwest. When the levees near New Orleans were dynamited, the weather was actually peaceful as seen in the photo below. In that case, there was literally weeks of warning as the Mississippi waters gradually rose higher and higher - the authorities had plenty of time to formulate and implement a plan to dynamite the levee at Caernarvon in order to save New Orleans. The circumstances of Hurricane Katrina were very different: much less warning of flooding, and the weather was atrocious at the time of the levee failures.

[Cooley Hurd]

17. You're correct about the flood... my bad...

[Horse with no Name]

89. It is very simple

By blowing up the levee, it gave the water somewhere to go OTHER than to the French Quarter and the wealthier neighborhoods.
In New Orleans, one point that is crucial to remember is that the wealthy neighborhoods sea level was higher than the poor neighborhoods.

[cgrindley]

6. For Christ's Sake

Yet another idiotic conspiracy theory is the very very last thing we need. This is the stupidest thing I've ever read (well, next to all those asinine 9/11 conspiracy theories).

[Poppyseedman]

8. idiotic conspiracy theories are exactly what we need

they help explain to rest of the world why liberals or progressives are not to be taken seriously.

Face it, when we can't even critically think though these lame theories and reject them as mindless dribble, why should people think liberal or progressive policies and political position are worthy of serious consideration?

The 9/11 "Loose Change" series is particularly inane and stupid. Yet some people around here take them hook, line and sinker right down to the leader line.

[cgrindley]

12. Absolutely

As a progressive, I am sick and tired of being tarred with the moonbat label because of the offensive shit some people believe in. Every time one person buys this nonsense, it means that everyone else gets associated with it.

[Epiphany4z]

18. I don't think it is moon-batty at all

The levees had been dynamited before it stand to reason that some would suspect the same thing ......or at least want assurances that it was not done again. In some ways it preferable to believe that over the level of incompetence it took for nobody to imagin that the leevees could be breached and leave people drowning , starving, dehydrating, without help for 5 freaking days.

Like the rich lady who get taken by a con man people don't want admit they have been conned.

as for being painted moonbat it is part of the Rove erra...They take what ever applies to them and try to stick it to us. So it is inevitable that we would be painted as moonbats.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. They're the left's version of the right's Christian fundamentalists.

They have their nutjobs, we've got ours. And both groups make me believe that the American educational system has gone all to hell.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Big difference

Their nutjobs are running (and ruining) this nation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. If you don't see how the right is destroying this country,

and if you actually believe we can trust these people, then I don't know what to tell you.

They lied and invaded Iraq, they are destroying public education, they are ignoring the needs of the poor in this nation, they are taking health care AWAY from poor people, they are destroying our environment, they are running up a record deficit, they are hateful war mongers. They are bigots. They KNEW how to fix the levees in New Orleans and they refused. A city of mainly brown skinned people was DESTROYED. 4 days after Katrina, FEMA had still done virtually NOTHING to help the storm victims. Cheney was fly fishing, Kindasleezy was shopping for shoes, and dubya was on vacation.

Even if the right loses its power tomorrow, I doubt we will see the damage they have caused fixed in my lifetime.

I see the damage they are doing and I don't trust them in the least. If that makes me a moonbat, so be it. Open your eyes. These hateful people cannot be trusted. Of course, there are those on the left who will believe conspiracy theories. My amazement is that some on the left actually trust these idiots.

[cgrindley]

62. Let's take a look at this

"They KNEW how to fix the levees in New Orleans and they refused. A city of mainly brown skinned people was DESTROYED. 4 days after Katrina, FEMA had still done virtually NOTHING to help the storm victims."

Okay. Point 1. There are a lot of broken things around that the nation knows how to fix but doesn't. Critical things. Up here, I'd say that I95 in many places is a poorly maintained deathtrap, whose momentary closure is enough to paralyze commerce up and down the entire coast (eg the bridge fire in Bridgeport CT last year). Or, I guess, you could say that Port Security is a huge issue, and I'm sure that if someone smuggled an atomic weapon through a port and used it to blow up Cleveland, then some idiots would claim that it was some sort of conspiracy to destroy Ohio and thereby end the global threat of rock and roll history. I can't even imagine the number of structures in California, Oregon and Washington that we *know* for a fact will needlessly kill people when the big earthquake hits. Likewise, how many schools have unsafe insulation? What about the cancer-causing superfund sites? And so on.

Point 2. FEMA hadn't done anything properly because it was run by an incompetent political crony, and in the face of a truly unparalleled disaster, the whole agency folded up like a house of cards. But then again, no one has ever accused FEMA of being on the ball.

Katrina can't be compared to anything really other than Mitch and maybe Andrew for the amount of devastation it caused.

We simply don't need a conspiracy for Katrina to have destroyed New Orleans. It's just not necessary. It was practically destined to happen.

[Missy Vixen]

85. We live 30 miles east of Seattle

>I can't even imagine the number of structures in California, Oregon and Washington that we *know* for a fact will needlessly kill people when the big earthquake hits.<

We're living with the Seattle Viaduct, which everyone living in the area knows will pancake like the freeway in California did during the next significant earthquake. I do not drive on it unless there are NO other alternatives, and at this point, the only time we're on it is when we've gone to Mariners games.

The discussions about the replacement of the viaduct rage on. In the meantime, all anyone who lives here can do is pray they or someone they love isn't on it when the bigger earthquake finally comes.

Julie

[cgrindley]

94. Anyone remember the Mississippi Valley flooding last decade?

Does anyone remember how badly everything was flooded, in um I don't like 1993 or so? Do you think anything's been done since then so that the floods don't happen again? If anything has been done, do you think it was well done?

I'm from Victoria, BC, and I can tell you that the city is utterly unprepared for a serious earthquake. My kids' elementary school will completely collapse. Everyone knows about it, but heck, Victoria can't even get up the energy to open a sewage treatment plant (we put it in a 2 km pipe pointed directly at Port Angeles and let er rip). There are tons and tons of capital expenditures that simply never get completed or even started.

[Missy Vixen]

124. Here's a little story for you

>Do you think anything's been done since then so that the floods don't happen again?<

Maybe the government's hoping that they can finish the job that got rolling with Katrina.

>My kids' elementary school will completely collapse.<

I hope that day never comes.

When I was in my 20's, I worked for a very upscale child care facility in downtown Seattle. There was quite a bit of discussion on "earthquake preparedness" until one of the parents discovered that the building our facility was in was built to collapse on itself. Guess what was located on the ground floor? The parent in question took their child to another care situation, and the "earthquake preparedness" discussions were quickly abandoned.

Julie

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

144. Huh?

>Maybe the government's hoping that they can finish the job that got rolling with Katrina.

He was talking about the Mississippi River flood in the 90s, not Katrina. And he has a point. Most of that area still isn't prepared for another similar storm.

[uppityperson]

112. Katrina didn't destroy NO, the flooding from levee breaches afterward did.

[cgrindley]

136. WTF!

You do realize, don't you, that your post didn't make any sense. You just gave us that old chestnut "guns don't kill people, bullets kill people."

[uppityperson]

180. Katrina destroyed much of LA and MS.

What destroyed NO is the flooding from the levees breaking. Why did the levees break is the question for me. Katrina was a Cat 3 at most when it hit NO. Yes, storm surge was caused by Katrina. But why did these levees fail? It was not just Katrina but a whole group of reasons such as shoddy work, low standards, storm surge, barges afloat that shouldn't have been, possibility of explosives, etc etc etc. More like "guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people".

[flyarm]

123. i am sorry but you are wrong.fema worked well in the Northridge earthquake

on the valley of Los Angeles..under James Lee Witt...i know i was there and lost my home and the entire valley No. of LA was like a bombing of beruit

our highways were destroyed, our homes were destroyed, many highrises were destroyed, our malls were destroyed, our banks and grocery stores were destroyed..and the 10 freeway in Santa Monica was destroyed..and huge chunks of the freeways in the valley were just gone..

those roads were fixed in record time..Clinton and Lee Witt gave the contractors bonuses to get the roads done ahead of time..and they sure did..and they had to deal with new codes for the roadways and work with engineers to make the roads safer for further earthquakes..so it was also updating technology..but they got the roads done in record time..

until Katrina it was the most expensive disaster on record in the USA.

and Clinton and James Lee witt did such a good job alot of this country really didn't have a clue how damn bad it was..they were so efficient..and professional

yes some people had some complaints..but in less than 24 hours they had tent cities up and running..and within 1 days they were walking our streets looking for dead people...and helping seniors and handicapped..

i know they walked down my street..they had clip board computers and tracked everyone..
they asked people about seniors who might need help..

they within hours were sending trucks out telling people to turn their gas off..

they were there..and they were incredible!

so please..do not say Feme didn't work before Katrina..because i will tell you you are wrong

they were wonderful in the Northridge earthquake under Clinton!

i know i lost my entire home and everything in it!

fly

[flyarm]

133. here..

Learning From the Northridge Earthquake
The earthquake that struck the densely populated Northridge area of Los Angeles on January 17, 1994, though only moderately strong by conventional measures, produced a "pulse" of ground movement that made it among the worst ever recorded in the United States. Sixty-one deaths and more than 1,600 serious injuries were attributed to the Northridge quake, with damage estimates ranging as high as $20 billion.

[Retrograde]

155. and here I thought it was all because of the upcoming election

Cynic that I am, noting that it took far less time to rebuild roads in southern CA than it did northern CA after the 1989 quake and the amazing coincidence of the governor's being up for re-election that year.

I wouldn't call FEMA worthless in New Orleans - I'd call them an active hinderance. If they were just ineffective they could be worked around, but last year they actually got in the way and prevented help.

Getting back to 1989 - the first Bush regime - they were pretty useless then. The shelters and immediate help were local, as I think they should be.

My idea of what FEMA should do (quoting myself from an earlier post): help local authorities identify potential emergencies and draw up contingency plans for the most likely ones, know who and what is available where in case outside aid is needed, be available during emergencies to marshall what the people on the ground need then ("You guys with the water - over there; search and rescue teams - you go there; Army - we need tents here asap; bureacrats - stand still and shut up for now")

In 1906, the army got every available tent west of the Mississippi to San Francisco and had tent cities running within a week - even though all communications to the city were down and they had to take a boat across the bay to send a telegram.

[flyarm]

158. well you are right to a point..that Wilson was up for re-election

but Wilson seemed like an after thought..it was Clinton who put up the ideas to give the contractors of the freeways incentives to get the roads done fast..wilson tried to take credit as much as he could..but we in the area knew it was Clinton and James Lee Witt who were responsible...and i had nothing nice to say about Wilson

I give the credit where credit was due..Clinton and James Lee Witt..

they were incredible in my estimation!

they backed the people and not the insurance companies..
now i can not speak for everyone, but my family and most of my friends got alot of help and we got it from fema , the Sba, and our insurance comp's ..because Clinton demanded it.

fly

[bdamomma]

174. I do not trust them either, they are hateful people.

they have destroyed the country. If I had to defend my life against these wingnuts I would do it.

[nashville_brook]

104. which is more "offensive"? that people are demanding answers

or that people had to scrape THE DEAD out of flooded attics?

[cgrindley]

134. Argumentum ad Misericordiam

People are demanding answers to a) non questions and b) questions that have been answered. People are also apparently too damn dumb to understand the answers.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nashville_brook]

148. a common measure of IQ is "divergent thinking"

a test for "divergent thinking" might be to ask someone to think of as many uses for a brick as is possible.

therefore...

stupidity actually measured by what you don't think of.

___________________________


have you ever seen the movie Chinatown?

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. The stupidest thing I have ever heard

is when I heard that the worst president EVER was re-elected in 2004.

[SoCalDem]

153. Gee thanks for solving it all

How nice to have it all wrapped up so neatly and succinctly :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. No the questions have NOT been answered

That's why they are still being asked.

[flyarm]

135. we should all be DEMANDING ANSWERS..

and we should never ever stop demanding answers of both Katrina and 9/11!!

i will never stop demanding answers to the deaths of my co-workers on 9/11!!

not until i get real answers, if it takes to my last breath of life!

fly

[cgrindley]

138. Here are your answers

Katrina: A huge hurricane swept into a poorly prepared city and pretty much destroyed its poorest quarters. The levees failed due to a combination of years of neglect and impressive physics. Government response was slightly on par with shaking a bunch of different bugs in a jar.

9/11: a bunch of reasonably well-trained and funded terrorists hijacked some domestic airliners with the most minimal of weaponry and crashed them into some buildings, some of which were never designed to play host to 10,000 gallons of burning jet fuel, and which, through a process well known to structural engineers, collapsed killing about 2,700 people. Through happenstance, fluke, dumb luck and massive incompetence, the bad men managed to pull off their plot with 75% success.

Here's a parable for you from Kurt Vonnegut Jr's novel Cat's Cradle:


I once knew an Episcopalian lady in Newport, Rhode Island, who asked me to design and build a doghouse for her Great Dane. The lady claimed to understand God and His Ways of Working perfectly. She could not understand why anyone should be puzzled about what had been or about what was going to be.

And yet, when I showed her a blueprint of the doghouse I proposed to build, she said to me, "I'm sorry, but I never could read one of those things."

"Give it to your husband or your minister to pass on to God," I said, "and, when God finds a minute, I'm sure he'll explain this doghouse of mine in a way that even you can understand."

She fired me.


Just 'cause you don't understand something doesn't mean to say no one does.

[nashville_brook]

149. when i was a young girl in college, there was a boy who

tried to end every argument with a flourish of Vonnegut.

[Blue Belle]

156. "Remain calm... All is well!"

You have a great ability to swallow everything this administration gives us hook, line, and sinker, cgrindly, but why should we trust ANYTHING this administration does as truth? I bet you believe that Saddam funded Al Qaeda too, and that Iraq had WMD's. There was no election theft in 2000 and 2004 either... right? Valerie Plame was just a secretary that arranged a trip to Niger for her husband. Dick Cheney is just a bad shot... and Geoff Gannon was just a plucky reporter who couldn't find his way out of the West Wing most nights. Ken Lay, and Jack Arbramoff were just "acquaintances" of the president - no real ties there. Haliburton is the ONLY company that can handle government contracts... and we NEED to have our phones tapped to keep us safe from the terrorists. Global Warming is just a liberal hoax too... right? No questions need to be asked... we should just sit down and shut up if the story we are told doesn't make sense. Way to live up to the lack of intellectual curiosity that the GOP expects from Americans.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

167. No.

He can distinguish between real things and made-up paranoid bullshit, and you are taking the typical conspiracist tack of trying to smear him as a freeper, which is pretty pathetic.

Here's a hint: The non-conspiracists here don't trust Bush either. But that doesn't mean they trust you.

[Blue Belle]

176. Perhaps if you could provide a list of what is real...

And what is paranoid, made-up bullshit (cause that list wouldn’t be open for debate). It is so great to have you around to tell us what is fact and what is fiction. You’re right… it will be easier to just automatically assume that anyone who questions the official story about something is a lunatic. I mean, when has the official story about something ever lead us astray before? You’re right… these people and their questions are truly pathetic. Why be ungrateful when the government officials and the press have already gone to the trouble of compartmentalizing everything and labored over breaking these issues into black and white, easily digestible pieces for us?

Here’s a hint: I don’t care if you don’t trust me… I never asked you to. Just because you don’t trust me doesn’t mean I’m wrong… it’s just a reflection of your own inadequacies.

[flyarm]

165. here are my own answers.,.,and answers to lies of this government

and cover -ups!

I see we should not look for truth..although for 3 years the people of Tampa kept yelling a plane took off from Tampa Airport when no other traffic was going in or out of Tampa..but they were told they had tin foil hats..yep..they were told to be quiet ..and that they were conspiracy nut cases...

And then low and behold, because the people wouldn't shut up..this gets disclosed 3 years later..
and do check the date of this.,.

TIA now verifies flight of Saudis
The government has long denied that two days after the 9/11 attacks, the three were allowed to fly.
By JEAN HELLER, Times Staff Writer
Published June 9, 2004


http://www.saintpetersburgtimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml
The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, better known as the 9/11 Commission, sent a list of questions to Tampa International Airport. It appears concerned with the handling of the Tampa flight.
For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose.

But now, at the request of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, TIA officials have confirmed that the flight did take place and have supplied details.

The odyssey of the small LearJet 35 is part of a larger controversy over the hasty exodus from the United States in the days immediately after 9/11 of members of the Saudi royal family and relatives of Osama bin Laden.

The terrorism panel, better known as the 9/11 Commission, said in April that it knew of six chartered flights with 142 people aboard, mostly Saudis, that left the United States between Sept. 14 and 24, 2001. But it has said nothing about the Tampa flight.




Oh I know..those conspiracy people had no idea what they were talking about right???

the official white house story should never be questioned..right??

oh..I know,this didn't fit with the official story, but because some Americans refused to allow others to call them conspiracy nut cases..they prevailed in the truth being brought out..

oh and a small little caveat..the headquarters of the Iraq war is very close by Tampa Airport..at Mc Dill AFB...
and our dear Tommy Franks was the top dog at McDill!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Oh and I know we should not question this..since the 9/11 commission refused to look into this..we should just ignore it right??

..funny right ...
that the boat cruse line was owned by Jack Abramoff..and Atta and other hijackers were seen on this boat a week before 9/11...

nope..wasn't in the "official story"so we better ignore it ..right??

Heck I wouldn't want anyone to think I would wear a tin foil hat now would I????

http://www.sptimes.com/News/092701/news_pf/TampaBay/Hijackers_linked_to_l.shtml
Hijackers linked to local cruise
By Times staff and wire reports
© St. Petersburg Times, published September 27, 2001


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TREASURE ISLAND -- Employees on a SunCruz gambling ship that sails from John's Pass think some of the hijackers in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were gambling on the ship the week before the attacks.
TREASURE ISLAND -- Employees on a SunCruz gambling ship that sails from John's Pass think some of the hijackers in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were gambling on the ship the week before the attacks.

The FBI is investigating. SunCruz Casinos has turned over security videotapes and documents to FBI investigators.

snip:

Hlavsa said that in the days after the attack, cruise employees said they recognized some of the hijacking suspects as former customers.

One name on the passenger list from a Sept. 5 cruise is the same as one of the suspected terrorists' names, Hlavsa said. A cash advance was taken out on that passenger's credit card, he said.



opps !!!!!!!!

It must have been a wild coincidence!!



But no one has seen the tape that the FBI took...


and these are a mere drop in the bucket of cover ups and lies!

fly

[earth mom]

131. Who gives a damn what those assholes think?!

I could give a flying F what they think of us. Wouldn't you rather know the TRUTH? Then let their stupid "opinions" sweep the truth under the carpet forever?!

Frankly I'm sick of those who are supposed to be on our side painting us all as some sort of crazies. Meanwhile those THUGS are over there waiting for the bullshit rapture or afraid of Osama-the big bad bogeyman or ranting endlessly about the evil librals who they are so afraid will ruin this country-which is actually what they are doing-and that's all just for starters.

Who are the REAL BATSHIT CRAZIES...HMM?!

Answer: THEY ARE!

The crap they believe in and spew is far more OUT THERE and BATSHIT CRAZY than anything I have EVER seen in my life.

Why don't you spend your time and energy pointing out THEIR CRAZINESS?!

Because that is what we all should be doing 24/7 if we want OUR SIDE to win.

[cobalt1999]

177. unfortunately, you can't argue with conspiracy theorists.

Rational arguments don't work because they WANT to believe.

Just hope they don't get too much air time and notice.

[acmejack]

20. As for you, I expect to see your very public apology when the truth

revealed! If it actually develops that nineteen arabs managed to defeat our trillion dollar defense machine with which I am intimately familiar incidentally I will fly a banner over your home town Tampa I assume) where I lived for several years when I was stationed there in the military, under my actual name and rank apologizing and stating I am a fool.

I make this statement knowing I am in absolutely NO danger of ever having to do so. Idiots indeed, we are nothing of the sort, patriots enduring the scorn and ridicule of people such as yourself who are so concerned about appearances they cannot even maintain an open mind to examine the evidence. Some claims are grantedly preposterous, some have overwhelming validity and bear further investigation.

When over 50% of the public believes further investigation is merited it becomes a majority, not a "lunatic fringe".

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. Nineteen arabs?

Why the fuck is it important that they were Arabs?

[nashville_brook]

108. 19 Saudi Nationals... not Iraqis, not Afghans, not Iranians

or North Koreans.

not Armenians.
not Italians.

not the French.
not the Germans.


Nineteen Saudi Nationals.

[cgrindley]

31. Citing public belief equals "truthiness"

I don't care if 99.9% of the public believe in unicorns. They don't exist.

PS 19 dudes plus their overseas support network *did* defeat the US military state. That's the fucked up part of it all. The military industrial state is actually reasonably incompetent, but then again, did anyone *ever* think that it wasn't? Wasn't this the same military that had its ass kicked by a variety of developing nations? EG Vietnam, Somalia etc. Why should the 9/11 intelligence failure provoke anything other than head shaking and depression?

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. So where do we go for the truth?

We can't trust our govt, the media is worthless, and now you say we should doubt public belief?

WHO CAN WE TRUST? HOW DO WE GET THE TRUTH?

[cgrindley]

55. It's a good question but I wouldn't immediate cede my credulity

to Spike Lee. He's a prince among men, don't get me wrong, but he's a highly politicized filmmaker, not a structural engineer.

[flyarm]

145. its obvious this person has no faith in truth..or in Americans seeking out

the truth..

or the constitution for that matter ..because no where in the Constitution that i have read does it say..we the president, or we the media, or we the Saudis

it says we the people..and i take that to mean..we the people are responsible to find the truth and hold those accountable to the people, to the utmost of scrutiny.

Particularly when any government of ours has been as dishonest as this one has been!

fly

[flyarm]

141. because the so called "official" story is not the truth! thats why!

and i know damn well it is not the truth!

you have been fed bullshit..utter bullshit!

if that is ok with you..fine..

but do not come here telling me i must believe utter bullshit!

i will not and i never will...about 9/11

from a flight crew of one of the airlines involved..NY based 2001 flight attendant of the year for the entire NY base ( JFK, LGA, EWR) for my airline

those were my co-workers and my neighbors who died that day, and the fucking so called "official story " is nothing but a crock of shit!

and i have done a round table ( UNIV of Tampa) face to face with one of the 9/11 commissioners and told him he was nothing but a crock of shit to his face..

and he knew he was..he couldn't look myself or my husband in the face or eye!

fly

[Poppyseedman]

35. even maintain an open mind to examine the evidence.

I certainly have fully looked at the evidence. My mind is completely open, but not to the point of it falling out.

Since you seem like an intelligent person, have a military background as you claim, please point out which claims have "overwhelming validity", I can find none. I don't mean the ones that are connected by claims that fall into the realm of "Six degrees of Kevin Bacon," but real factual empirical evidence.

I defer to you "patriots" patently enduring "the scorn and ridicule of people such as" myself who after examining the evidence find NOTHING that falls into the category of actual empirical evidence.

Give me your take on the "Loose Change" documentaries?

[acmejack]

50. I am partial to DR Griffin's "The 9/11 Report"

"Omissions & Distortions"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1566565847/102-7757392-0952136?v=glance&n=283155

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. BRAVO!!

Glad to see you get it!!

[nashville_brook]

105. word.

[Strelnikov_]

48. Who Exactly Do You Consider To Be 'We'? n/t

[cgrindley]

53. We, a definition

We is progressive, socially-minded democrats who desire political change in the United States and who feel that the best chances for that change to happen as being through the election of candidates from the Democratic Party.

[Strelnikov_]

77. Right n/t

[elehhhhna]

61. Loose change may be over the top but here's WHAT WE KNOW:

Bush's actions re: 911.

1. BLOCKING THE CREATION OF THE 9-11 COMMISSION.
2. HIRING A PERSONAL ATTORNEY.
3. REFUSING TO TESTIFY UNDER OATH.
4. INSISTING HIS ACCOMPLICE BE WITH HIM DURING QUESTIONING.
5. THE OVERT CONSPIRACY TO MILITARY WORLD DOMINATION IGNITED BY A TERRORIST ATTACK & CONTAINED IN PNAC PROPOSAL.
6. THE EVIDENCE THAT HE LUSTED FOR WAR WITH IRAQ PRE-911 IN BOB WOODWARD'S BOOK "BUSH AT WAR".
7. THE OVERT WILLINGNESS TO KILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE ON A FALSE PRETEXT (WMD)

Doesn't look so good to me.

[Poppyseedman]

71. Loose change is not over the top

Loose change is full of inaccuracies and outright misinformation, poorly researched and documented.

Your list just proves my point.

[elehhhhna]

84. How does it prove your point? Not sure I understand.

[DemInDistress]

154. Please add this to your column... the failure of the BFEE

to turn over to independent engineers (911 Scholars for truth) those 7,000 photo's, the hundreds of hours of videotapes (many received from the public) and all the documents that have been classified.

Since the arrest,indictment,guilty plea and sentencing of Moussouari all 911 materials should be made public.. what are they (BFEE) afraid of?

[RC]

10. Yeah, right! We are in Iraq because Saddam himself flew both

airplanes in to the WTC.

[Disturbed]

14. The levees were the responsibility of the local Govt., the State

and the Feds. I saw a documentary on New Orleans a few months before Katrina hit. This was a large failure of many people. The response after levees broke was criminal negligence.

[cgrindley]

26. Exactly

the situation doesn't require a conspiracy, just good old fashioned self-motivated idiocy and incompetence.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cgrindley]

23. Oh I don't know

I think I'm someone who believes in rationality, peer review, making sure that extravagant claims should be verified dispassionately. I believe in the causes of a progressive democracy and socialism. I believe in free speech, but I also understand that in the United States, people who hold progressive views have a duty to present those views without hysteria. I am on the correct board. If distancing and criticizing those who have clearly subscribed to some pretty insane conspiracy theories is "arrogance" then so be it. And as far as my views being the "stupidist" thing posted here, well, sunshine, prove it.

[acmejack]

28. You will undoubtedly have your opportunity to apologize as well

When history proves that nineteen men with boxcutters did not defeat our multi Trillion dollar air defense system. For all the certainty people of your ilk evince, I am totally baffled as to your demands that all further discussion and investigation cease! If the case has not been made to the satisfaction of all, what is the harm in further investigation?

There are glaring inconsistencies that noted scholars, not "crackpots", or at least not to those with anything resembling an openmind, desire to have answered. There is nothing "insane" about wanting to know why NORAD failed in it's only mission.

So no I won't shut up and I will be greatly disappointed if anyone else does either, especially just to mollify you. I fought so I could speak and say what I wish. So I will. Thank you. If it offends you or causes you distress, I'm sorry.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. What happened?

In your first post it was "nineteen Arabs" and now it's "nineteen men"

[acmejack]

45. Do we need to quibble over semantics?

Come now, Y!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. It isn't semantics.

I'd like to know why the fact that these men were Arabs is relevant at all.

[acmejack]

51. Were they not identified as such in the "Official" story?

I would suggest that makes it relevant, however if it will mollify you, I will gladly amend my statement to read "An unspecified number of INDIVIDUALS"...

edit: You are correct it isn't germane in the least. I should have run with the above in the first place, I stand corrected. In fact perhaps you all have a point about conspiracies, but I must tell you I cannot help but believe that there is something terribly wrong with what we have been told in the way of explanation. It seemed wrong the way it transpired, either it revealed that the entire Air Defense System I have been associated with in some way ot the other most of my entire life is a joke or there is something else more sinister involved.

I don't know which I would rather believe incompetence or worse.

[cgrindley]

56. Why the information was relevant

Because it demonstrates that the US has done a lot to antagonize a really specific part of the globe. If it was a broad coalition of anti-American thought, that would be one matter, but it was a particularly Middle Eastern effort, and really showcases that the US has lost a lot of goodwill in that part of the world. Specific bridges have to be repaired.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

58. I was speaking in the context of the poster's original comments...

That basically said that it seemed silly to think that "nineteen Arabs" would be able to pull off such a plot, as if the fact that they were Arab had some bearing on their ability to carry out said plot.

[cgrindley]

59. I was ignoring him

because I thought the issue behind it was actually fairly interesting, like the recent plot in the UK centering on Pakistani-English youth. We've got to start understanding exactly who it is that the US is pissing off and start taking concrete steps to mitigate that damage. Reach out to people and so on.

[truebrit71]

93. They WEREN'T Arabs?

15 of them were from Saudi Arabia, so that makes them, what, Dutch?

I fail to see your point....

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. And when we finally know the truth

I look forward to your mea culpa.

[Ian David]

21. It's not stupid, but it is incorrect-It was done before, but no this timet

The "evidence" that the levees were bombed was circulated by Calypso Louie Farrakhan and quickly discredited.

However, the New Orleans levees were intentionally bombed in the past, and it is not "stupid" to think they would do it again.

This time, no bombing was necessary.

Bush knew the levees would not hold and he let it happen on purpose-- LIHOP.

No bombing necessary.

In fact, the levees may have been intentionally built to fail-- MIHOP-- without needing to be bombed.

Bombing or not, Bush and his administration are complicit in the deliberate destruction of New Orleans.

By concentrating on a discredited bombing theory, it distracts from the long-term, systematic efforts that went into the deliberate destruction of New Orleans.

IMHO, the years of willful and deliberate steps that Bush took-- and the days before and after Katrina-- are much more damning than just giving a single order to blow the levees in one moment.

[cgrindley]

25. I think that years of shameful neglect under a variety of

administrations coupled with a poor neighborhood built in geographically inadvisable area and a fairly significant natural disaster is pretty much all the scenario took to get started, and then the utterly incompetent response to the crisis finished off whatever chances the city had. No conspiracy needed. Occam's razor.

[alarimer]

43. It's the stupidest fucking thing I have heard yet

I know Bush is evil but give me a break. If people heard explosions, it might well have been due to gas mains. It was a HUGE natural disaster. Some people have no critical thinking skills and will believe any crap that someone makes up.

[EFerrari]

96. And some people have an appalling lack of empathy for

the poor people that watched each other dehydrate and die. Who can possibly blame them for believing their government would bomb the levee?

Spike Lee has plenty of respect for these people and masterfully presented competing accounts via these voices.

[uppityperson]

115. Were gas mains exploding in New Orleans?

Hadn't heard of that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. Speaking of fucking stupid...

I think that anybody who thinks Bush is incapable of bombing the levees hasn't been paying much attention the last six years.

As for whether or not it was bombed- I don't think it mattered. The administration's purposeful incompetence is a crime against humanity even without bombing the levee.

[CabalPowered]

98. Ya well I didn't believe it either until I saw Spike Lee's movie

[nashville_brook]

101. not a "conspiracy theory"

it's not a "theory" to present evidence
it's not a "theory" to convey eyewitness reports
it's not a "theory" to allow the evidence to speak when the dead cannot.

any HUMAN BEING who watched what went down in New Orleans and doesn't see something greatly amiss needs to get out of the gated community a leeeetle more often.

[Taxloss]

140. Actually, that's not correct.

Presenting evidence with comment IS theorising, and that is precisely what happened in this case.

And your last remark uses a mighty broad brush.

[nashville_brook]

150. see the first post -- Spike Lee put it out there without comment

[flyarm]

166. and nixon and watergate were a conspiracy theory for a long time as well

so the point is what??

the conspiracy theory's were 100% right!!

same goes for the Gulf of Tonkin..the people that claimed those lies were called conspiracy theorists as well...

and oops!!! they were 100% right!!

son of a gun...

just think if people had questioned more then..hmmm we might not have a huge black wall in DC!!

fly

[Taxloss]

181. If Woodward and Bernstein had started their investigation with

the preconceived idea that the Watergate break-in was funded from a secret GOP slush fund and that the President himself had ordered the cover-up in order to pervert the course of justice, their investigation would have gotten nowhere. They didn't have any idea what they were investigating because they kept open minds. No one knew about the conspiracy, it wasn't even a theory. They printed exactly what they did know and what they could conclusively prove, and that was enough to sink the president. They printed FACTS, not a theory, and that is what made their story run and run. They worked painstakingly in minute detail to make sure that there were no theories, there were no leaps of faith, it was all down to fact. Facts gave them Felt, and Felt gave them Watergate.

[flyarm]

190. i beg a differ ..i remember many people saying ..nixon wouldn't have done

this ..no way..I remember hearing it constantly..no one wanted to believe Nixon was involved..and all sorts of conspiracy theory's were alfoat!
and every conspiracy theory was run UNTIL MARK FELT EXPOSED HIMSELF about who deep throat was..you don't remember that??

Remember it was deep throat that kept Woodward and Bernstien going..they were going to give up at dead ends many times..they were following a conspiracy theory until deep throat came to them and furthered their investigation and finally exposing the real conspiracy.

I certainly remember the conspiracy theories about the Watergate break-in being done to catch the dems with call girl rings..do you not remember that?? THE PEOPLE ..the citizens did not want to believe that Nixon was involved in the break in...
I remember my father getting very angry when anyone would say Nixon was involved..and my dad was a dem..an avid dem.

Watergate had many conspiracy theories surrounding it..

ahhh and then we have the Pentagon Papers that confirmed many conspiracy theories about Vietnam!

another time...

fly

[Perky]

126. I completely agree.

[MichaelHarris]

16. I'm not going to attack the theory

just shed what little light on it I know to be a fact. Having been in numerous hurricanes and a few tornado's I know the sounds a storm can make. The sounds of transformers blowing all over and the sounds of telephone poles snapping can sound like an explosion.

Having lived a large part of my life along the Texas coast I know the sound of an explosion. When something blows up you know it. It's a rolling sound, sort of comes at you like a wave. No one described a sound like that, the "theory" people mention all kinds of things from popping to a boom. Exactly the sound you hear from a transformer or pole snapping.

I've heard a refinery blow up and you know exactly what that is. It's important to remember these people were at their wits end during the storm and any sound above the howl of the wind would have scared the be jesus out of them. I don't want to anger the conspiracy crowd but some of these notions give people like Fox News ammunition. Did anyone smell cordite? How much overtime would they have to pay to get people to plant the explosives during a cat 5 storm? If the explosives were planted ahead of time did they guard them or did they just not tell anyone? On a levee people walked on everyday to fish and stuff.

[LA lady]

24. Thank you for your calm logic

We do not need crazy theories like this, the levees were blown in the storm of '27 but NOT in Katrina.

[Debau2005]

29. But as someone in the HBO show mentioned

it is not to much to ask for an investigation. There was and still is so much going on in that area, and people are so distrustful of the feds, and rightfully so, that an official investigation might have put an end to the speculation.

I know that is too much to ask of this administraton!

I don't believe they were bombed, but I do believe that the system was set up to fail. One gentleman on the show stated that the levee building started in the 60's and is still unfinished. That is just incompetent!

[LA lady]

38. Spend money on an investigation?

I would rather spend money on better levees.

[Debau2005]

40. I think the point of the statement in the show

was that an investigation would have alleviated some of the speculation and fears of the community. Which would go a long way in helping them heal. For me, giving the communities some since of peace of mind would be money worth spending.

[EFerrari]

44. The Army Corp of Engineers released a report recently

that was pretty damning of their own work.

But, I agree. Clearing this up for the residents of NOLA might have helped everyone get over some of the terrible trauma they endured.

[The Straight Story]

152. Well, probably would not have helped one bit (and could make it worse)

Just like 9/11 commission, or any other investigation - it would be torn apart by whichever side did not like the findings, which would fuel more conspiracies and mistrust, then a Du forum called katrina would pop up, and people would be saying there was no hurricane, that it was a govt hose job with haarp, etc and so on :)

[nashville_brook]

110. have we lost all sense of decency? the dead deserve answers

[flyarm]

169. hell i want the 70 million back from ken star..just think how

that money could have been used to fortify the levees..especially when little lord pissy pants shorted the money that was designated for the levees each year preceding Katrina!

but instead we know from the rethuglicans , Clinton had a consensual adult BJ ...

yes an investigation is needed..but as we saw with the 9/11 commission ..where 13 million was spent..

this country seems to think it more important to investigate a consensual sexual affair, for 70 million than the loss of human life and tragedy's of her own people with failures of our government that are inexcusable.


I am so glad we now know how to avoid the tragedy of a BJ, but we still have unsafe aircraft flying over head daily and the possibility of another Hurricane destroying a national treasure of one of our own cities and her people!

wow... we have learned so much, by not asking questions and possibly risk the fate wearing tin foil hats!!

now men stay away from those BJ's..they are bad for the country!!

fly

[Vampgrrl]

151. Protect the Quarter

It was a case of no one taking care of the levees for years and years because no one believed it was going to happen, Bush, Clinton, Bush...The Corps of Engineers and the Orleans Parish Levee Board.

That said I'm not sure why people concentrate on the Lower 9 so much when Lakeview, Gentilly, much of Mid-City GONE.
the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MRGO) destroyed St. Bernard Parish.

The disaster is so much larger than the Lower 9th Ward (and consider that Bywater, Marigny, the Quarter are on the other side of the Industrial Canal..especially the Quarter must be protected at ALL costs, so goes the Quarter, so goes New Orleans.

[EFerrari]

33. I don't know that there is a "conspiracy crowd" here. We were

discussing a scene from the Spike Lee documentary that was aired last night. In that scene, there are several people who believe they heard explosions. One man even said, I thought it was a transformer but we'd already been sitting in the dark.

[Debau2005]

42. It does seem

that we have changed the face of the post a bit...

[EFerrari]

47. Yes, it seems we did. n/t

[uppityperson]

117. It was AFTER the storn, when the storm was over.

explosions after the storm

[MichaelHarris]

188. transformers and stuff

don't magically stop blowing up when the wind and rain die down.

[uppityperson]

189. "after the storm" was in response to this bit you wrote.

"It's important to remember these people were at their wits end during the storm and any sound above the howl of the wind would have scared the be jesus out of them."

That is all, and I agree with you. Could be lots of reasons for explosion noises, ranging from transformers to barges to who knows what.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. "It was done..." Oh yeah? Who did it?

Fucking passive voice bullshit.

[Jazz2006]

52. I missed it. What was the premise?

that the levees were deliberately bombed?

for some specific purpose?

If so, the obvious next questions are who? what? when? where? why? and how?

Was that all covered in the movie?

If so, any idea when it's playing on HBO or some other cable channel next?


Edit: typo because some just doesn't look right as wome.

[Lindacooks]

54. Wouldn't the levees breaching make a loud noise like a bomb?

n/t

[sandnsea]

64. That's what the program stated too

The noise from a levee breech is loud and the ground will shake. It's understandable some folks will think it's been dynamited, especially because it's happened in the past. People heard the same thing with Betsy, but there's never been an investigation to discover whether there was dynamiting them. They're only sure it happened in 1927, and several poor neighborhoods were flooded then, not just black ones. It was a great documentary, Spike Lee just presented information so that people could draw their own conclusions. With the levee noise, the point to me was that the noise should have been taken seriously and investigated, so that people would be given information to understand what happens when levees break.

[GumboYaYa]

57. I seriously doubt that.

In 1927 when they definitely bombed the levees to save New Orleans it took several days of continuous bombing to finally cause a full breach.

The more likely scenario is negligence. There is a giant barge that was sitting in the middle of the lower ninth ward when I went there, right below where the breach was. It had torn loose and I bet that it slammed into the levee and that, together with the instability caused by saturation and overtopping, caused the breach. If Spike Leee didn't show the barge, he is not telling the whole story and intentionally misleading people.

[EFerrari]

60. Wouldn't be a good idea to see for yourself before you

accuse the Mr. Lee of abusing his audience?

[LA lady]

63. Which one?

So you feel it's more important to watch a documentary about something than to live through it! Interesting premise.

[EFerrari]

70. I think you're responding to the wrong poster. n/t

[GumboYaYa]

66. So, did Spike Lee say anything about the massive barge

that sat in the middle of the lower ninth ward for months? I certainly did not say that he did not. I think by using "if" I leave open the question of whether he did. I did not take any position on the documentary. I'm just telling people what I saw with my own eyes.

[Lilith Velkor]

68. He showed it. n/t

[EFerrari]

69. The was a scene with a barge early in the first segment. I have no

way of knowing if that is your barge. And predicating an accusation like that with an "if" makes it not a whit less hasty.

Lee didn't argue the idea one way or another. He showed versions of the story, as he always does.

[julialnyc]

129. He did show a barge

the way that the documentary is set up in four acts I have a feeling he will get back to that. The first two acts mainly dealt with time before the hurricane hit and what the people did in the aftermath of the levee breach.

I have read that the second half deals more with the government response and the varies failures in more detail.

[malaise]

65. One of the persons interviewed mentioned

the barge. The bottom line is that people do not trust this administration and some of them know past history so an investigation would have helped to clear this up. I saw other people raising this before so I don't understand the attack on Spike Lee who actually said nothing on the topic.

[EFerrari]

73. That's right. He did not. n/t

[misanthrope]

147. The barge was in the film...

...along with other residents from that area of town who stated that they discounted the detonation theories in favor of good ol' American incompetence as a result of apathy and corruption.

[flyarm]

170. he showed the barge n/t

[Solomon]

67. Apparently nobody paid the slightest attention to what I said

in the original post. Wow. What a lot of anger we have here.

It's not about the "explosions" or what people thought they heard, I was commenting on the graphic of the map which showed the pattern of the flooding that makes me very suspicious. The flooding started somewhere else, not the lower ninth ward. The places where the flooding started were miraculously saved by the ninth ward levees being breached.

I think several angry people here have made comments and they didn't even see the damn film. So quick to judge. Name calling and what not. That's totally unnecessary. I understand like the next jackass, that huricanes can cause sounds that sound like explosions. Look at the pattern of how the flooding developed. That was an eye opener to me. Not only that, but the pictures someone else posted right after the huricane showed that the flooding seemed to occur AFTER the huricane and not during.

I have a right to my own opinion, which shouldn't piss you off so much. Lots of anger here. I really am sick and tired of all the damn "coincidences" that happen under this administration.

How about if I just start referring to you people as "coincidence theorists", but with the same kind of nasty sneer you have when you call me a "conspiracy nut".

And I'm sick to death of democrats being scared of their own shadows. Always worried about what somebody else thinks about what you say.

When Georgie tells everybody we can't elect a new president because we're at war, then maybe some of you will stop worrying about what democrats look like when they say something.

[EFerrari]

72. I wonder if could find that map or a similar one. I'd like to see it

again.

[EFerrari]

74. Here's a link to a series of flood maps, fyi:

http://www.cccarto.com/new_orleans/flood.html

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

75. Can you explain something, please.

I've been a bit curious about this statement:

The places where the flooding started were miraculously saved by the ninth ward levees being breached.

How did the 9th ward levee breach save them? If "the places where the flooding started" were already flooding, wouldn't the water just rise to the level of the water in the lake/river/ocean regardless of what happened with the 9th ward levees?

[tammywammy]

76. But what I don't understand is...

what area was saved because the lower 9th was flooded?

The Lakeview area is pretty pricey and yet it was still flooded.

I don't have HBO, so I didn't see the map you're referring to. Maybe a little explaniation of it (or if you could find it) would help me out.

Thanks.

[EFerrari]

79. The link I posted in #74 has maps and great links to other maps. nt

[tammywammy]

87. Thanks! n/t

[redqueen]

78. Denial is a much stronger reaction than I'd ever suspected...

Disappointing.

*sigh*

FWIW, I noticed that detail (map, not statements) right off the bat.

[EFerrari]

80. Moonbat!

:)

[redqueen]

81. hahahahahaha

I'm not saying we all need to put 100% faith in every theory that's floating around, but FCOL, when the evidence starts coming in, why the inexplicably angry kneejerk reactions against it?

[EFerrari]

82. No idea. Lots of adjectives flying around today.

It was pretty hard to watch that doc last night. I tend to think Katrina upset us all in a profound way and it's going to take a while to be something like rational about the whole topic.

[GumboYaYa]

83. From what I understand the flooding started on the 17th Street canal

in the Lakeview area. If you go see that area, it is completely, totally wiped out as far as you can see in any direction. If you drive to the point as far as you can see and look again, everything as far as you can see from there is also wiped out. These are mid to upper class neighborhoods and they are gone. The floods did not discriminate and the breach in the lower ninth ward did not help anyone in Lakeview. That is my perception afer having been through the entire area extensively.

I'm not angry at all (except for my anger at the Army Corp's negligence for letting this happen). I just worry that if we change the focus to conspiracy theories rather than focus on what all the evidence suggests really happened, New Orleans will never get the levee system its people deserve and were promised.

[EFerrari]

86. I seriously doubt that this thread is going to stop the improvement

of the levee system.

[GumboYaYa]

99. It's not this thread that worries me, but rather the fact that

people can watch a documentary that will have a very large audience and come away with what to me is clearly not a supportable conclusion based on what I have seen with my own eyes.

[EFerrari]

109. I don't think this will be the governing message that people take

away with them. This isn't Lee's "JFK" :)

[GumboYaYa]

118. Again, I readily admit not seeing it yet.

I am only responding to the impressions from the movie presented in this thread and how it does not comport with my own personal experience.

You would be hard-pressed to find anyone who loves New Orleans and its people more than I do. My driving concern is the long-term safety of those people.

Personally, I like Spike Lee's film making and look forward to seeing the film.

[EFerrari]

119. Don't watch it alone. It's heartbreaking. Or, the first half was. n/t

[GumboYaYa]

122. After spending time in the lower ninth ward, I'm not sure my heart

can get "more broken", but then with Katrina, anything is possible.

I have to go down there and shoot footage next month for a concert film we are making about the connection between New Orleans music and its neighborhoods. I am dreading it.

[EFerrari]

125. I hear you. I just finished a long work about a painful situation

and it wasn't easy. That was my main thought last night, what a strong guy Spike Lee has to be to have spent all that time with all those images, with all the people he interviewed.

[savemefromdumbya]

106. keeping an open mind

does anyone else have any photos of the levees breaking. Must be many videos of it. Didn't it happen after the major part of the hurrican came thru?

[EFerrari]

114. Link to links in #74

[Strelnikov_]

88. The 17th/London Canals Are Hydraulically Connected To The Lake

directly. Breaching a levee elsewhere would have had no effect.

Generally, breeching a levee is performed to divert some of the flood flow to offline storage, thus reducing the effective flowrate and therefore flood peak. This is generally done in riverine environments, and generally on large rivers. I think the Corps did it in 93 on the Mississippi in a few places, opened up a agricultural floodplain to protect a town/development.

My estimation as to what happened: 1) The 17th and London Canal levees failed due to a criminally negligent design (sliding failure as I called it on the first day), 2) The Ship Canal failed either due to overtopping or the barge breaking down the concrete surge wall on the top, allowing erosion to do the rest, and 3) the earthern levees to the west were overtopped and/or taken out by erosive action.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4507221#4507605

[Schema Thing]

100. :eyeroll:

[julialnyc]

111. I don't think the levees were bombed

but I can see why some people down there would.

The noise of the levees breaking would be quite loud.

What was striking to me was the man saying that the levees broke at cat. 1 maximum cat. 2 storm conditions. That made the levees a bomb waiting to happen.

I certainly see why in many ways people believed that. Even in the rescue..... no one looking them in the eye or offering any truthful answers. Although there were many wonderful people who did help....... those people experienced the worst of mother nature and human nature.

[Xenotime]

113. I believe that the response, lack of aid, and more are all

a result of federal discrimination.

[nashville_brook]

116. question: according to the MAP, what areas would have

flooded if the levees didn't "break."

might the floodwaters been seeking higher value homes in another direction?

who was spared when The Levee Broke?

[boolean]

120. WHAT THE FUCK MOTIVE WOULD THEY HAVE?!?!!

God! It's the same shit in the 9/11 forum!

Tell me, WHY would they bomb the levees. What fucking purpose does it serve? To make the administration look WORSE?!

Honestly you conspiracy theorists piss me off. You undermine the efforts of people who are actually trying to expose the incompetence and legitimate cover ups that the administration is responsible for. It makes us look like a bunch of nut job wackos. I don't believe a fucking word that the government says, but that doesn't mean you can make shit up out of thin air either. You have to accuse them of things they're actually guilty of, not things you imagine they're guilty of.

[EFerrari]

128. Actually, "we" haven't made anything up but are talking about

the experience of some residents of NO that managed not to get killed.

Maybe you should go shout at them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. Why would they do it?

Presumably for the same reason they blew up the same levees in 1927. And possibly again in 1965.

This isn't making shit up out of thin air. This is people with long memories.

Tell it to the witnesses who heard explosions.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

143. I believe the motives cited are...

1) Somehow breaking these particular levees would save rich, white neighbourhoods.

Which is rubbish, because plenty of upscale neighbourhoods got flooded, along with plenty of businesses owned by (apparently) fat, evil white men with access to explosives.

2) George Bush hates poor/black people.

Which is probably true, but hardly sufficient motive for this exceedingly weird conspiracy theory.

[slackmaster]

173. The poorest neighborhoods in NO happen to be the lowest

And most prone to flooding. That is not a coincidence.

[Solomon]

157. Jeez Lueeze! What anger! We're way past 9-11. Do you have

doubts that 9-11 was a set-up? If so ... (rolls eyes).

Okay. If nothing was saved by the breech of the levees, then I take it all back. I saw pictures of New Orleans immediately after the hurricane. People were walking around on dry streets. There was (ahem) looting, remember? People thought the storm was over, and it was, until the levees broke.

By the way. I never interjected race into the thing at all. The whiners and complainers did. Although a person would be very hard pressed to not admit that that sorry debacle of an aftermath had everything to do with racism.

You happy now? (You need to get a grip about 9-11 though. That one was obvious)

[Taxloss]

159. I'm hearing a lot of anger from you, as well.

You seem distressed that people disagree with you about this, and about 9/11. Not of all of us were taken in by Loose Screws Change.

[flyarm]

178. i watched both documentaries last night "on Native Soil" and Spike Lee's

Katrina...one not even bother to look into conspiracies or details at all, one needs only to look at the utter failure of this administration of epic proportions, and the destruction of human life by inexcusable failures.

Failures of the air we breathe, the water we need to live by , the food..every day human needs were a total failure...these are security failures , these are humanitarian failures, rescue failures

one not need a tin foil hat to examine the sheer magnitude of the failures of our government.

and what has been fixed?? nothing

we sit 5 years after 9/11 and our nuclear plants are not portected, our ports are not protected, our water sources are not protected, our skies are not protected, our levees are not protected, our cities are certainly not protected

we are in debt up to our eyeballs, and yet we all sit here unprotected.

we can argue about what happened but what are we all willing to do to keep it from happening to our town and our city..
we have a failed administration that could get bombs in a rush to isreal..but couldn't get water to people who were dying on streets in our own country..

we take make-up away from passengers and then sell it on ebay but our air cargo goes un checked..

and is flying over nuclear power plants daily..

if we do not look into the failures, we can not prevent them from happening in your town or city tommorrow.
it may be a different tragedy , but it can and will happen if we do not look into these failures, and the cost, i am afraid to tell you, you never get over.

we should all be asking the questions, but like one fireman ( who lost his son, a fireman) on the 9/11 documentary last night said..he asks people, when he goes out to speak, to raise their hands of who has ever called their congress person or senator, and demanded answers..and he said no one ever raises their hands.

i hope to god no one ever has to experience the loss i feel every day because of 9/11 and the pain in ones heart, that never goes away..the pain and the agony of knowing it didn't have to happen.

i cried last night so hard watching both documentaries..because it showed what a failure our government is to her people.

and so many people today ignore it or are so complacent , where is our backbone as a nation?
why are we all not outraged??

we should all be angry..and rightly so.

our people died from incompetance..from failure of our safety nets..and failure most of all, of this administration!

if we all do not stand up and be counted, it will happen again, and again.

we must hold our media responsible as well..seems Spike Lee had to get alot of footage from foreign media..

how is that possible??

the Canadian Mounted Police got to NO before our own government?

how is that possible? and why is that possible?

we must take our country back..and we must join hands
to hold everyone accountable, who would put all of our families lives at risk.

because they are at risk.

fly

[flyarm]

184. Itis the people who were In New Orleans that made these claims!

maybe if you had watched the documentary you would understand that..it is not people here at DU making these claims..it is the people of New Orleans who were
there making these claims..on the documentary ...so get mad at them! if that makes you feel good.

and while you are at it..get mad at the people in NY who risked their lives and were incredbile Americans and humanitarians and just damn wonderful human beings, who worked day after day volunteering to work at the WTC looking for the remains of their fellow Americans, who were lied to by the EPA and now many dying because this adminstration lied to them about what they were breathing and they were told the air quality was safe and they were advised they didn't need masks to protect themselves...what was the governments motive in that??

ask Kristine Todd Whitman..she was the one who carried the water bottle for this adminstration...in their outright lies.

when the dogs all died this administration was still lying!

and yes they were told they were nuts until the real reports were exposed!

fly

[goclark]

121. Spike Lee's masterpiece should be seen by everyone

It just grabs you and won't let your heart go .

The footage is simply amazing and the photography is EXCELLENT!


Do not miss it.

[RB TexLa]

139. Ever since the '27 flood every time it rains for more than 5 minutes in

New Orleans fifty people swear they saw state police cars loaded with dynamite headed for a levee.

[Stewie]

164. How do 50 people see dynamite inside a moving police car?

And why would Louisiana state troopers blow up the levees when the Governor is a Democrat?

[uppityperson]

182. sounds like a local joke

[Taxloss]

146. If DU had been around 100 years ago ...

"There's no way that earthquake was natural! It's the biggest California has ever seen! I suppose it's just a COINCIDENCE this is an election year! I suppose it's just a COINCIDENCE it happened in San Francisco, California, and not in Texas! Nothing can convince me that this wasn't black magic! I tell you it's those flying contraptions spreading evil and disrupting the earth's orbit! This is just a distraction from the Pure Food and Drug Act! This would never have happened if Alton Parker had won!"

Etc.

[Throd]

160. You forgot the shadowy figures with torches

setting the untouched parts of the city ablaze.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

161. My only question...

...is whether the explosives experts who did 9/11 were also used in Katrina.

:hide:

[EFerrari]

163. . . . .

:spank:

lol

[WilliamPitt]

172. "This would never have happened if Alton Parker had won!"

:rofl:

[Stewie]

162. Bombs?

Are you sure it wasn't the fact that rain-soaked and hurricane-damaged levees were trying to hold back BILLIONS of gallons of water from one of the largest lakes in America, one that had swelled even more from rain and storm surge?

I suppose Benjamin Harrison ordered the Johnstown Dam dynamited, too.

[SidDithers]

171. Was thermite used?...

Call Steven Jones, he'll write a paper.



Sid

[ecstatic]

175. At the end of the day, its just a question of murder vs. manslaughter

I'm not sure if the levees were bombed (I suppose its just as possible as 911 MIHOP/LIHOP); however, neglecting to repair the levees for all those years, despite many many warnings, does amount to involuntary manslaughter. At the end of the day, the result is the same--thousands of people are dead.

Here in Georgia, if someone gets in an automobile accident while operating a vehicle with worn out/bald tires, that person is charged with vehicular homicide. So why is the government being held to a different standard?

[mnhtnbb]

183. Focusing on alleged bombing misses the point that the levees

structurally failed due to design modifications by the Army Corps of Engineers which were NOT approved. The Corps finally acknowledged they screwed up. Maybe that was publicized in NO, but I sure never saw it in any of our local press (NC)

There is an excellent discussion of this in the book, Breach of Faith:
Hurricane Katrina and the Near Death of a Great American City

[coalition_unwilling]

185. I remember reading that soil samples from the levees were

being tested for explosives residue, but the story died and withered on the vine. Don't remember where I read it.

[KamaAina]

186. N.O. has four separate levee systems

the main one where the breaches were, one on the west bank of the Mississippi where there was no flooding, and two across the Industrial Canal, "protecting" the Lower Ninth Ward and New Orleans East.



There is no way that bombing the levees in the Lower Ninth Ward could possibly have lowered the water level across the Industrial Canal (IHNC on map). The "exploding" noise heard in Lower Nine could well have been when a loose barge struck the levee and caused a breach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ING_4727

This does beg the question, "Why was that #$*%&%%^$!! barge loose in the first place?", but sadly, no explosives were required in order to create all that damage.

[uppityperson]

187. This has been my thought and question on it also.

Barge hitting/breaking would make a huge noise and why was that barge there and loose anyways? Good graphic of MRGO too.

[Renew Deal]

192. Yes, they were bombed by a hurricane.

"A fully developed hurricane can release heat energy at a rate of 5 to 20x1013 watts and converts less than 10% of the heat into the mechanical energy of the wind. The heat release is equivalent to a 10-megaton nuclear bomb exploding every 20 minutes."

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/C5c.html

Suggestions that the levees were bombed should be limited to fringe lunatics that need a doctors visit.