I think child beauty contests and the parents who push it, are sick.

[trumad]

[chelsea0011]

1. Agreed. Go see "Little Miss Sunshine" They put child beauty

contests on their asses.

[trumad]

4. I saw the movie and was stunned at how weird people really are.

The kids were like Barbie dolls to the adults.

[L A Woman]

100. but that movie was not really about child beauty contests...

it was about the insane emphasis Americans put on winning and never just being happy with what we have.

[Demit]

2. I totally agree. n/t

[Deja Q]

3. Barbie, meet prostitute. Prostitute, meet Barbie.

It's a match made in... well, obviously not Heaven... more like New Jersey, or so that trite joke goes...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

58. Hey, that child beauty contest shit is mostly in the south

Not Jersey.

Welcome to NJ. Don't worry we hate you, too.

T-shirt wisdom.

[marions ghost]

74. while it might be nice

to contain this unfortunate phenomenon to the South where it originated, it has spread to many other states, and is growing. There are now around 3,000 pageants and an estimated 250,000 contestants per year across the US. These are nationwide pageant "systems"....:puke: (Actually the first beauty pageant (for adults) took place in Atlantic City, New Jersey in 1921).;)

----------------------

For example, check out this website from Northern California:

http://www.voy.com/19009/

For a look at the various "Pageant Systems" in the United States, this website has lists:

http://americasgorgeousgirls.net/plinks.htm

This page has an article about the origins and present state of the pageants, with some discussion about why parents of all income levels go in for it:

http://www.minorcon.org/pageants.html

Excerpt:

"In Universal Royalty pageant, the country's largest child beauty pageant (based in Texas), all contestants receive an award for participating. There are sixty contestants from the age of zero to thirty years old, all divided into different age groups. As soon as the child can sit up on her/his own s/he can enter the pageant. A competition is held usually every few weeks. There is a minimum cost of $545 to enter the pageant, which covers basic entry fees. Another $395 is needed for the maximum options of this pageant. The average cost of the pageant is about $655 which includes the formal wear, sports wear and dance. The average cost does not include travel, hotel and food, which can be up to an extra two hundred dollars. According to several stage mothers participating in Universal Royalty, dresses for sports and formal wear can cost up to $12,000 with a minimum of $1500. The grand supreme winner receives one thousand dollars in cash, ten-inch crystal crown, six-foot trophy, supreme entry paid in full to nationals, tote bag, satin rhinestone banner, teddy bear, bouquet of long stem red roses, gifts, video of the pageant, and photo on advertisement of beauty pageant. The participants are also required to bring gifts to the winning king and queen. Different beauty pageants offer optional competitions inside the pagean, like decorating your door, dad competition and talent. In Universal Royalty, family values are enforced. Therefore, the dad competition is free of charge and there is a fifty-dollar award and a plaque for the winner."

[Philosoraptor]

86. check out "Patsy's" Magazine... that's CREEPY

http://www.patsysmagazine.com/Proud%20Photos.htm

[SmokingJacket]

90. Aaaack!

I've never seen children looking like that! Like tiny, shrunken women!

Doesn't it bother those parents that they're turning their children into sexual objects? Does that seem in any way healthy to them???

[lumpy]

111. Child porn creeps must enjoy this

publication. How would it feel to know some creep might be getting his jollies staring at your daughter's picture. Women who enter their precious daughters in this preverse exploitation have to be sick in the head. If ever there should be a law.....

[marions ghost]

110. bizarre

...I guess it's some womens' thing to have your very own live dress-up doll. The mother depicted in one picture looks so plain by comparison to her 3-year old, who resembles a sugary cupcake with icing dripping off. (hope this is not a magazine dedicated to Patsy Ramsey, is it?)

I wouldn't mind so much if these were performances or talent shows and not beauty contests. I mean, it's fun for kids to dress up and perform, and can give them confidence etc. I don't think American Idol is so terrible--at least it helps people improve their artform. Even dog shows I can understand, because there's skill and behavioral considerations in working with dogs (and you don't have to worry too much about them being scarred for life).

But these glamour competitions for girls--it's weird and fetishistic. Teaches the girls to be objects. Not to defend these things but we need to admit that girls are taught that anyway in this culture. In some ways this is just a more extreme version of attitudes that are widespread, which more intelligent parents are constantly fighting against. These pageant abominations are a product of our culture.

So actually I don't think it's the parents who are 'sick' so much as it is the culture that is sick.

[OzarkDem]

124. That is horrible, nightmarish n/t

[Arugula Latte]

5. I do too.

Who would want this for their daughter?

Disgusting.

[Ezlivin]

6. What do you call men who spend hours looking at little girls all made-up?

Judges at a child's beauty pageant.

If they were doing the exact same thing on their computers and had a hard disk filled with images of little girls dressed like adults, some quite "sexy", what would happen to them?

[MrModerate]

10. As long as they were dressed . . .

Maybe nothing. I don't have the law in front of me, but to be porn, it has to be pretty explicit. That's why all the amateur "teen model" sites aren't illegal.

Someone might suggest serious counseling, though.

[sgxnk]

17. correct

i am pretty familiar with these statutes (lots of training and cases)

the key is "sexually explicit behavior"

in some (rare) cases, a photo can be illegal even if the child is fully clothed.

in other cases, like parents taking pictures of their kids, a photo can be legal if the kid is naked

there is some stuff that is OBVIOUSLY child porn

other stuff is a bit more difficult

also, many web sites choose women (over 18) purposefully based on the fact that they look exceptionally young. that is legal, if disturbing

if a website ever got hold of an adult that happened to have some sort of growth deficiency that caused them to never reach puberty (iow, they looked very young) and took sexually explicit photos, that would be legal, at least under my state statutes. even if they looked 10

i think one excellent new law that has been enforced a lot is the (relatively) new statutes that criminalize leaving the country for the purposes of having sex with a minor (see: Thailand)

also, note the laws regarding age of consent vary widely. recently, the age of consent in hawaii was FOURTEEN. that means that a 50 yr old could have sex with a 14 yr old and that would be perfectly legal. otoh, taking photographs of the sex act would be a felony.

go figure

i heard hawaii raised the age from 14 within the last few years

[Blue_In_AK]

127. That's right. They have something called child erotica

that is somehow different from child pornography. Both are sick, IMO.

[Tellurian]

7. Always wondered if they castrate molesters/child killers if it would

be enough of a deterrent?

[helderheid]

16. I have often wondered that as well.

[sgxnk]

21. i am 100% for

chemical castration (if not outright physical castration) for child rape

i think courts have genreally ruled it to be cruel and unusual though (certainly the latter)

[helderheid]

29. They think THAT is cruel and unusual? How about child rape?

:crazy:

If it would deter it, I am all for it too.

[sgxnk]

41. word

despite my LEO background, i am not quite a lockemup type of guy.

i don't think anybody should be locked up for USING drugs, for instance

and i think we have way too many laws and invasions of privacy when it comes to self regarding acts.

but when it comes to child rape?

um...

not kewl.

i realize it's very "clockwork orange'y" (forced govt. castration) but i'd be perfectly willing to offer an option

rape a child? 20 yrs in prison *or* 5 yrs and forced castration

i bet many would choose the latter

and that's fine with me

[nam78_two]

57. Apart from everything else said in this thread

which I agree with, what a strange set of values to raise a child with :shrug:

Not that compassion or intelligence etc. are important, but looks are??

So weird....

[sgxnk]

93. it is kind of disturbing

child actors or even models are one thing

but putting children in adult style dress and makeup is another

it disturbs me

[lumpy]

112. Doesn't disturb sickos that get

their kicks from viewing pictures of little girls dressed up as sex objects. And don't think this doesn't happen. The cosmetically obsessed mothers are providing a service for the perverts who desire sex with kids.

[sgxnk]

113. exactly nt

[jwdeviant]

60. Now now.

We can't get all excited that a judge supports the 4th Amendment and then bag on the 8th, that's not good.

I'm against castration for the same reason I'm against capital punishment: it can't be undone if someone screws up (i.e. "Sorry we chopped your bits off but the little boy seemed credible at the time").

And before someone asks, I'm a deviant because I like bigger women (of my own age) and civil rights.

[sgxnk]

92. i have no problem

i have no problem with deviance

as long as it does not harm others

i realize that (i assume) castration cannot be undone

oh well

neither can the rape of a child. it's with them for life

i think it's fair trade

like i said, i am perfectly willing to offer CHOICE

5 years + castration
or
20 years w/o

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. Fair trade? Not for a wrongly convicted person. -nt

[sgxnk]

95. but neither is 20 yrs in prison

if you think you are wrongly convicted, then take the 1st option and file yer writs of habeas corpus, etc.

but i still think the choice should be offered

the criminal justice system is a blunt instrument. it is imprecise. people are wrongly convicted (from a results analysis and process analysis angle).

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

97. A 20yrs prison sentence can be overturned at any point along those 20yrs

And still, what comes out is a whole, if older, person. Usually.

Not so for castration. Unless it's a chemical type in which you become "un-castrated" if you stop taking the meds regularly. (And then you're violating the terms of release and get sent back to prison)

[sgxnk]

103. i agree

that's why i said that IF you contend you are not guilty, take the former option (20 yrs) and file yer writs

fwiw, and i have investigated a fair # of these types of cases (child rape, child porn, etc.) these types of cases are far less often a "are they guilty" type of case than many other crimes.

as several of these tv exposes have shown (the ones on cable where they set up stings with child predators), child predators tend to be rather poor criminals, in that they leave tons of physical evidence, etc.

also, at least in my experience, i am more likely to get confessions from these guys that eliminate any reasonable doubt whatsoever that "they did it". this is as opposed to murder cases, burglary cases, auto theft cases, etc.

i think a big part of it is the guilt factor and/or the pride factor. that's more my personal experience/opinion though

like i said, i respect your "irreversible" argument vis a vis your contrary stance, but i just (personally) don't think that is a compelling enough reason not to have a castration option.

[Goblinmonger]

108. There is evidence that doesn't work

It was part of a college debate topic about a decade ago. I did most of the research on it for our team (as a collective under the rape cases that were being run). I don't remember the sources--or really care to look--but basically the studies showed that not being able to get it up really pissed them off even more and they just raped with broomsticks, bottles, whatever was handy.

[Caoimhe]

24. I don't think so

because it's about power, not sex. I honestly think that if you castrate a man who preys on children, he will just rape them with whatever objects he can find (a bottle, hairbrush, etc) because the adrenaline rush is inspired by controlling the victim and making them submit to your will.

just my take on it

[Ms. Toad]

46. Absolutely -

but what I'm not sure enough about is the impact of removing the testosterone from the system in relation to the power motivation. Testosterone is related to aggression. Would castration diminish the testosterone enough make the aggression either vanish or low enough to be controllable.

Generally, I have been opposed to both physical and chemical castration - even when voluntary - as I did not think it would solve the underlying problem (need to assert power, not sexual attraction). After talking with friends undergoing sex reassignment surgery I am more aware of the impact of testosterone - and if someone volunteers to undergo castration to help them control the aggression I am not so sure I would oppose it any more. I'm still opposed to mutilation as an externally imposed remedy.

[Tellurian]

49. Your observations are well noted..

Similar results occur when unruly, vicious stallions are gelded. The elevated hormone level promoting aggression seems to diminish considerably. I don't see the castration as mutilation, more of a therapeutic reconditioning to re balance hormonal induced aggressiveness. Thereby, allowing the offender a real chance for rehabilitation. I'ts (could be) a good thing!

[Ms. Toad]

73. If its an uncoerced choice

by an offender who admits he has committed the offenses with which he is charged (or similar ones) and is committed to rehabilitating himself I tend agree that it is part of therapeutic treatment.

If it is imposed as a sentence, or offered as an "option" to avoid - say - life imprisonment without parole, I see it as mutilation, the same as I would chopping off the hand of a thief, or cutting out the tongue of a perjurer.

[Tellurian]

77. When someone "chooses" to break the LAW...

They have determined their own fate. In country's where theft is punishable by the loss of a hand...well then, the perpetrator has chosen his fate whether you call it mutilation or therapy.

[Ms. Toad]

80. Unfortunately, our criminal justice system

not only convicts and punishes those who choose to break the law, but quite a number of innocent folks as well. As we increasingly permit the introduction of evidence generated by more and more draconian investigatory techniques, and increasingly limit the right to appeal, the likelihood of punishment for a crime of which one is innocent continues to increase. The Supreme Court has held that even actual innocence, or a lawyer who sleeps (or is drunk) through "non-essential" portions of a death penalty case, is not sufficient grounds to prevent execution if the condemned has exhausted the permitted appeals.

I have had too much experience with the criminal justice system to believe that everyone currently being punished has "chosen" to break the law.

Even innocent people faced with what they believe is certain imprisonment for the rest of their lives (or a significant portion thereof, or for whom imprisonment would be intolerable, or the death penalty) may "agree" to pretty dramatic alternatives, such as castration.

Amputation of a limb filled with gangrene is therapy. Amputation when done because the limb has done something offensive is mutilation, which in this country is generally barred as cruel and unusual punishment (with the exception of the death penalty).

There is a distinction - and I remain firmly opposed to externally imposed castration (or "agreement" to castration that is coerced with the threat of other, more drastic punishment) as the equivalent to chopping off the hand of a thief.

However, just as I currently accept that amputation can be appropriate therapeutic treatment, rather than inappropriate mutilation, I am coming around to the view that castration may be a viable therapy for an individual who acknowledges a problem with aggression that is severe enough that he has been unable to prevent himself from taking that aggression out on others in the form of rape - as long as he freely chooses that treatment.

[Tellurian]

83. I see, you've chosen to go off into a dissertation of the criminal

justice system and have veered far and away from the question at hand..

Mutilation or therapy? It's really a semantic argument of which, I like you, could continue on about the newer methods, such as dna testing, having a positive impact on freeing previously convicted suspects of committing heinous acts on children. Which nullifies your 6 lengthy paragraphs of fiddle faddle.

I see no further need for discussion of this topic with you as you seem to be having a chronic difficulty disseminating apples from oranges.

[Ms. Toad]

120. You brought the criminal justice into it

with your assertion that the people being punished chose to break the law.

That's a fantasy world that is far from reality, given the current state of our criminal justice system. I merely pointed it out - in part because the messy reality of our criminal justice system is one of the major reasons I oppose the imposition of irreversible physical punishments (like castration or execution).

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

96. Fate or not...

the fact that the same transgression is punished in wildly different ways in different places demands the question:

Isn't at least ONE of those punishments terribly WRONG?

I've seen too many people sport this faux-impartial "to each culture his own" attitude to thinly veil their extreme-punishment fetish.

Saudi Arabia style criminal Justice is WRONG. Period. Ditto for caning in SE Asia countries. Whoever tries to whitewash THAT with cultural relativism has the personality disorder I just described.

[sgxnk]

105. mutilation

i disagree with this assessment - that it is the same sort of mutilation

the former examples you give are (just ask the people/legal systems carrying them out) designed from a punitive basis. iow, as punishment.

the castration is not punishment (not that punishment is wrong in itself. our "corrections system" about a decade ago changed its official mission from rehab to punishment, but i digress), but it is viewed as preventative

iow, if evidence shows that castration is extremely likely to greatly reduce the risk of REOFFENSE than its preventive value far outweighs whatever "mutilative' aspects may be there, intentional or not

now i agree the tongue thing is ALSO preventative, but i would argue that is not the point of cutting out the tongue

also, we can agree that child rape is a far more heinous crime than perjury, i would think

[Ms. Toad]

118. If you've spent much time around rape crisis centers

police stations, or prosecutor's offices you know that the impetus for castration (at least the surgical kind) is not prevention, but a imposing an unthinkable punishment for an unthinkable crime.

I spent a decade volunteering between 4 and 24 hours a week at the local rape crisis center. Castration is a rather mild punishment/retribution compared to what we dreamed up on our most painful evenings - like the one we spent holding a 4 year old while the doctor examined her, listening to her explain how the man "put his 'Christmas' in my 'Christmas,' knowing that not only would this 4 year old be living with the impact of rape for the rest of her life but that she would be reminded of it every year as Christmas rolled around because Christmas was the label her mother had chosen for her private parts (to convey how special those private parts were). One of the favorite resolutions involved handing a dull knife to an offender after nailing his "Christmas" to the floor of a building and setting the building on fire.

I'm not minimizing the crime, or the impact on survivors of it, but my experience - including what I am capable of dreaming up - tells me that mutilation is very much the motivation. Prevention of reoffense is just the wrapping that makes it acceptable for society to consider imposing.

It's a nice fantasy, and an effective way to blow off steam - but I do not believe it is an appropriate punishment in a society in which I want to participate.

[sgxnk]

119. much time

i;'ve interviewed dozens of rape victims and suspects, seen many crime scenes, etc.

so that's my response to your first "if".

my second point is this...

REGARDLESS of whether (and it certainly does) satisfy the "punishment need" of some people for a certain kind of justice, that is tangential to whether it is good POLICY. the latter question comes down to, for me, whether the deterrent value outweighs (strongly) the satisfaction angle (for those who want to see child rapists castrated).

it's kind of how i view many political arguments

for example...

many marijuanalegalisationopponents (correctly) claim that many of the people who are FOR medical marijuana are for it primarily as a stepping stone to full scale legalization

that's irrelevant in my analysis of whether medical marijuana is a good idea.

but they are right that many people have ulterior motives (at least partially) in supporting policy X

i see the same concepts vis a vis castration. if it is good policy from the preventative angle, then the fact that many primarily might support it for it's "kick-ass let's castrate them bastids" angle is totally tangential. it says nothing about the underlying rationale for the program

[Ms. Toad]

121. I'm not entirely convinced it's a good policy

from the preventative angle - although I'm not necessarily opposed to voluntary castration. In addition to any physical benefits, the mind is pretty powerful - and the drive of anyone motivated enough to undergo castration will probably also make it more likely to be successful as therapy. That kind of drive would likely be missing in forced castration - and it might create an opposite drive of "I'll show them" anger at what had been done to him.

The "kick-ass let's castrate them bastids" angle does not seem to me to be entirely tangential. The prosecutor's office and local police departments (who gather evidence and make decisions about going after the "bastids" - and which "bastids" to go after) are more heavily populated with this mindset than the average population - its part of what motivates the career choice. There are a lot of decisions made by these groups during their well intended advocacy for the survivors, in part because of this bias, which result in innocent people being convicted and punished. (I haven't seen specific studies on castration, but its well documented that prohibiting individuals who are not willing to impose the death penalty from serving results in a higher conviction rate and the imposition of a more severe punishment.)

[sgxnk]

122. i'm not convinced either

that was among my first caveats- GIVEN that their is peer reviewed medical data for instance that castration would suppress the rape urge (by suppressing the sex urge initially) i would be for it.

i do not KNOW this is the case, but i suspect it. regardless, i only support the policy IF it was an effective deterrent

so, assume for the sake of argument it would be effective. in that case, i would support it.

so, i see the primary factor as that. and i would also support the (5/20) as mentioned earlier

i have seen some variety in prosecutors. some prosecutors are of the hammer/nail variety and/or intensely political. but in general, they are pretty fair.

the problem with prosecutors is one of psychology, in that once they buy into a case theory (he;'s guilty), cognitive dissonance and competitiveness to win kicks in

i thought, for example, the duke lacrosse case was strongly suspect from the VERY beginning, when all the ideology based people were assuming the guys were guilty. but that's another matter

also, just to clarify (it's kind of implied by you, and its inferred by many) - prosecutors JOB is to present a case. ONE side of the case. they are advocates for a side.

the police have an entirely different job. their job is to gather evidence and investigate - whether that evidence inculpates or exculpates somebody. their job is not to help the defense OR the prosecution but to gather evidence and follow leads WHOMEVER that helps.

but again, this is not about the steps leading up to the conviction. this is about the sentencing aspect ONCE they are convicted.

the castration angle - as a deterrent, as a money saver, etc. seems win/win to me.

[bvar22]

59. Do you know that your post contains....

KITTY PORN!!!

[Catherine Vincent]

91. LOL!

I get it...k-i-t-t-y :)

[Lerkfish]

71. ?as I understand it, pedophiles are turned on by the corruption of

innocence in an attempt to recapture their own corrupted innocence.
Like rape, sex is the byproduct, not the main goal.
With rape, its dominance over the will of another to regain potency.

You can rape someone without a penis, and you can molest someone without one, too.

I don't think chemical castration would prevent pedophiles. I think it would lull the rest of us into a false sense of security that it had suceeded when it actually didn't.

IMHO

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. There's also the punishism fetish factor.

Damage. Maim. Humiliate. Mutilate. Take pleasure in perp's pain.

Society's security be damned. It's secondary to the satisfaction of our pseudo-righteousness deviant urges.

You know the type.

[Philosoraptor]

8. Best in Show Babies

As if they were pets. And yes, there is a weird streak running through this whole sick story. I believe in my sick little head that the kiddie porn pageants were somehow tied into the kid's demise.

[GrumpyGreg]

12. As a mother and grandmother I agree with all you said.

Sexualizing these little girls is an abomination.

[EFerrari]

9. Objectifying a child who is learn appropriate ways to be a SUBJECT

learning how to relate to others in a healthy way IS sick.

[MrModerate]

11. Can you be "unhealthy" without actually being "sick?"

Listening to the Ramseys at the time, they defended participation in pageants as mother-daughter bonding, self-esteem building, talent expression, etc., etc.

It always seemed creepy to me, but borderline.

[Sparkly]

30. I know what you mean....

I'm not sure all the parents are "sick" necessarily, but misguided at the least! (And I think it's very unhealthy for the children!)

[LoZoccolo]

55. Yeah, but there are a lot of other things a 5 year-old can do...

...to build self-esteem and all that. Play piano or something maybe?

[rubberducky]

13. These beauty pagents for chidren should be banned.

Yes, we all think our child is the most beautiful child ever born. But, to stack your child against other children, based purely on looks, is one of the most awful things that a parent could ever do. At least in my opinion!! I`m sure that there are parents out there that will disagree with me. I respect your opinion, but, beauty is such a subjective issue. I would never put my child in that arena. I value my child`s mind!!:)

[jazzjunkysue]

27. Amen. It's a sick addiction, like gambling. It's abuse.

[YDogg]

14. I agree. I had a family member who was pushing to have another ...

... younger family member enter pageants like that, and I raised holy hell about it. I think these pageants are twisted.

[Caoimhe]

26. a lot of them are scams

my cousin was taken by her step monster to a few modeling agencies and ended up getting bilked out of a considerable sum of money to travel to Florida for a "shoot" and "pageant" that was nothing but a scam. I'm glad for my little cousin's sake that it ended there. The step mom is a repuke freak, go figure!

[stanwyck]

38. I saw an A&E documentary years ago

that followed a family who had their youngest daughter in the pageants. Dad was working several jobs to afford all the gowns and traveling. Mom was a full-time stage Mom. And the little girl? Her childhood was being spend learning dance routines and applying makeup.
And one of the aspects was the money involved. And the majority of the families,unlike the Ramseys, were people who could ill afford the immense costs of participation.
I felt so very sorry for the little girl. The mother kept saying "she loves it!" But, in reality, the little girl just wanted to please Mom.

[YDogg]

48. I believe I saw the same sort of documentary/special.

Rather pathetic.

[spooky3]

52. Dr. Phil had a similar show

and he could never get through to the mom that her behavior was extreme and that it was costing the family lots of resources that could be much better redirected to the benefit of all of their children.

[LostinVA]

106. Dr. Phil said, "You could have used that $65k for her college fund."

She was like, "I have a college fund." Disconnect.

The only thing scarier than that mom was that I was agreeing with Dr. Phil...

[Dulcinea]

67. What are we teaching these kids?

I remember that this family spent something like $70k on beauty pageants! All I could think of was, "Why didn't you save that money for her college education? Something she will have forever? What's more pathetic than a washed-up beauty queen?" One day she won't be soooo cute, & than what happens? I thought it was sick even before I had daughters of my own.

What are we teaching these kids? That it's more important to be on display & to preen than to develop your mind or your talents? It makes me both angry and makes me want to gag. I have 2 girls, & would never subject them to this kind of objectification.

I'm thankful every day that I got beautiful, smart, healthy tomboys who want to dress up as an astronaut & a pirate for Halloween & not like a Barbie doll!

[EstimatedProphet]

15. No argument here

This is blatant sexualization of children

[Fleshdancer]

18. I would never NEVER subject my daughter to this crap

Seeing these pics and watching the documentaries about stage moms make my skin crawl. This is no way to raise a future woman.

[Philosoraptor]

19. Here's a nice pic of Jonbenet

[Philosoraptor]

22. and another

[EFerrari]

31. I don't know if I can describe this without getting the thread locked.

Look at the way her body is presented as the body of a woman. Little girls don't have waists. Since when do little girls wear dresses that hug their hips? And all that leg.

And look at all that makeup.

This is not "dressup" or a little girl having fun with her parents playing a game. This is child abuse.

[Philosoraptor]

33. I've seen some of Jonbenet that are far more sexual

Almost like Penthouse layouts, I swear

[EFerrari]

35. I can see how parents would go overboard but what those parents

did to this little girl is not "overboard". It was a purposeful presentation of their little girl as a sexual object.

People have gotten really mad at me for saying this, but unless we recognize what we are seeing with our eyes, we'll be useless to curb this kind of exploitation.

[LostinVA]

107. You're not making me mad, you're right

This ie WORSE than how Jodie Foster in "Taxi Driver" -- where she was playing a child prostitute.

[L A Woman]

104. Ummm, sorry...but if you see anything sexual in those pictures...

you should be worried about yourself! Because I sure don't! She's just a kid in clothes that look similar to the ones my niece has in her dress-up trunk!

It's in the eye of the beholder.

[malaise]

40. I agree with you 100%

It is quite sick.

[tblue37]

54. What brekas my heart is her hands. They are still the

pudgy, clumsy hands of a baby. Baby hands have always seemed so sweet and innocent to me. Her hands are the only things that still look like they belong to such a young child. I am surprised they didn't give her false fingernails.

[LeahD]

56. I thought the same thing. "Oh, those cute little hands don't match

the rest of the image."

And, who makes those heeled shoes for 6-yr. olds?!!!!

[Divameow77]

89. They are probably tap shoes

which can have heels, it looks like she was dancing.

While I don't agree with beauty pageants either, I don't assume that every parent who puts their child in one is abusing that child.
I think it's going overboard to claim they are "sick". It's the people that look as these children as sex objects that are sick, not the parents.
If a woman wears a short skirt did she asked to get raped? I think some of the comments in this thread are making a similar accusation towards these parents. They may not being what most of us consider to be the most healthy activity for a little girl, but that doesn't mean that love their children any less then we love ours, or that they should be accused of child abuse.

[FlaGranny]

109. Thank you. My mom

took my daughter to local baby parades. It was fun for them and she did not dress my daughter in sexy clothes - more like fairytail princess or old-fashioned 1890's style clothing. She didn't put makeup or high heels on her either. Maybe things were different back then - that was over 40 years ago. Certainly, she was never subjected to pagents of little girls dressed up like sexy movie starlets. That seems extreme. My mom loved my little girl and would be horrified if anyone considered her a "sex object."

I might add that when my daughter was a little older, she wanted to take dance lessions, where she did wear the heeled tap shoes. She also wore tutus and those awful ballet shoes. Her shoulders were sometimes bared in these tutus and her legs always were bare in them. If someone wants to look on a little girl in a ballet costume as a sex object they are very sick indeed.

[OzarkDem]

123. Age appropriate costumes

If these were truly pageants for little girls, they wouldn't be dressed in clothing, full makeup and jewelry usually worn by women 20 or 30 or older.

Dressing 4 or 5 year old girls in clothing worn by older women, full makeup and jewelry is wrong and very harmful and sends a completely different message.

[LeahD]

128. Here, here! Whatever happened to little girls with bangs, or ringlets,

peter pan collars, anklets with mary jane shoes???? There are still 6-yr. olds that look that way, and I applaud their parents.....they aren't buying the sexy clothes that are on the racks. It's not easy find age-appropriate clothes these days, but it can be done.

[jwdeviant]

61. That is just creepy (nm)

[Irreverend IX]

117. What's that mark on her right arm near the elbow?

A scab? Were Mom and Dad doing "dress rehearsals" of their Christmas Eve performance?

[sweetheart]

20. entertainment

be entertained in our culture of 24x7 of eternal entertainment,
be entertained or die...

[cynatnite]

23. I knew parents who took their daughter to beauty pageants...

We went to their house a few times and in one room they had all the trophies and ribbons she had won. She was 10 at the time and had been going to these for about five years. I was told they saw parents starting their kids at ages two and three. They said they took their daughter to a couple before getting involved. They wanted to make sure she wanted to do it plus check out the kind of environment it would be.

The photos were nothing like the ones of JonBenet. They did fix her hair up and she wore a little make-up. The clothes were little girl type clothes and no where near the adult looking ones.

I have never met any other parents who did this so I can't speak to that. These parents I talked to were as normal as just about any other parents. Their thing was that they would stop doing it when it quit being fun for their daughter. Her winnings were put in a savings account for college. At the time she had almost enough to pay for her first year.

This was several years ago so I have no idea if it's changed for the worse since then or if these parents were unique in how they approached it.

[niyad]

25. anybody remember a movie with lee remick "of pure blood"??

This is pretty much what I think of every time I see one of these children's pagaent pics:

Lee Remick is Alicia Browning, a New York City casting agent who learns of the death of her son Mark (Robert Bowman) in Germany. In Germany, she discovers what Mark had - that Alicia is a child of "leibensbaum" - German for "fountain of life, Himmler's program for the breeding of pure Aryans - and that Dr Grigor Bamberg (Richard Munch) has arranged for Mark to father a child Maria to continue the blood line. What will happen to the child? Remick's natural Aryan looks and somewhat mechanical manner makes her perfectly cast as a leibensbaum child, and Alicia's outrage at her identity being a shame and having her grandchild at risk gives Remick plenty of anger to play. The scene where her mother Erika Muller (Edith Schneider) tells Alicia of how she was impregnated by the SS Officer Carl von Lubich who disappeared at the end of the war works more because of Schneider's playing than Remick's stiff reaction, though Remick has a good scene where she becomes hysterical at the realisation of her arbitrary rejection of children at a casting session, hugging the children around her and crying for forgiveness. The teleplay by Michael Zagor and Del Coleman, suggested by a book by Marc Hillel and Clarissa Henry, has elements of Ira Levin's The Boys of Brazil, but on a lesser scale. The irony of the Steinhem house where Alicia was born and raised until she was 5 now used as an institution for handicapped children is mentioned more than once , but Erika's model recreation exists to be smashed. Director Joseph Sargent presents such a fascinatingly gothic tale that we can overlook aspects like McGoohan's German accent and old man makeup, Alicia's nightmares of Steinhem, and even the jump cuts of Remick crying when she learns her real father was a war criminal. Sargent cuts from Mark's dead perfect face to head shots at Alicia's casting agency, uses an effective music score by Brad Fiedel, and continues the telephone conversation dialogue from one scene over the visuals of another.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

28. Toddler + sequins/makeup = PROSTITOTS

It's warped to want your sweet, little girl to look that precocious. Warped!

[Philosoraptor]

32. Stage Mothers, Tennis Mothers, Football Fathers

Living vicariously through their kids by making them participate in activities that they may actually hate.

[shanti]

37. and then there are those of us

"basketball mom" in my case, who have never forced their child to participate in sports. his desire to do it is completely his own. i understand what you're saying, but please, no generalizations.

thanks.

[porphyrian]

34. It's child abuse. - n/t

[Mist]

36. Because of my revulsion at the whole Ramsey family's involvement

in kiddie beauty pageants, I was always inclined to think the parents were involved in the murder. It seems I wronged them there, but the kiddie pageant thing still makes my skin crawl.

[maddiejoan]

42. The parents may not have murdered her physically...

But they committed "soul murder" on her just the same.

[EFerrari]

39. You know what else is SICK as possible? Our media running these

images as if they don't depict the sexualized body of a child.

I haven't heard ONE PERSON say ANYTHING about it.

:puke:

[RobertDevereaux]

43. Agreed, and I wrote a short story to express...

...my outrage, when the Jon-Benet story first broke 8-10 years ago.

It's called "Li'l Miss Ultrasound" and was published in Gathering the Bones:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0765301792/sr=8-2/qid=1155857027/ref=sr_1_2/104-9304343-7482334?ie=UTF8

The eBook version is available, as are review comments, at FictionWise:

http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook39084.htm

All about a beauty contest for third-trimester fetuses, their images enhanced by digital wizardry.

Monstrous, the whole notion, and my revulsion powered this story!

[Raksha]

44. When my daughter was about 10 years old (maybe younger)

she desperately wanted me to enter her in those child beauty contests. I told her no, not because she wasn't beautiful but because there are many different kinds of beauty. Her kind might not be what appealed to the judges, and I refused to make an object out of her or allow her to make an object out of herself. I didn't want her to put herself in a position where her self-image depended upon what other people thought of her, either physically or in any other way.

She didn't care for that very much at the time, but I believe she understood. Years later, it was that same beautiful and brainy daughter who introduced me to Naomi Wolf's "The Beauty Myth" and all of her other works, such as "Promiscuities," which was actually the first Wolf book I read.

So I guess she got the message!

[spooky3]

53. you're a great mom! Thanks for standing tough

I am sure she loves you for it.

[Raksha]

65. Thanks - at the time, I was more concerned

about the possible damage to my daughter's self-image if she lost, but seeing the pictures of JonBenet in those suggestive poses and costumes makes me realize the damage might have been just as great (or greater) if she WON! It's disgusting that people would exploit their kids like that, turning them into objects or toys.

My daughter definitely understands what I was getting at NOW, but I think on some level she understood then too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Basically, they're treating their kids as dolls.

They haven't figured out that they're not toys.

A bit like people who drive hummers.

[H2O Man]

47. I'm sure that you

recall the movie "Pretty Baby." I think that Brooke Shields' mother was kind of the face for the nameless parents who were not simple allowing -- but actively promoting -- a very unhealthy trend. I also recall that Minister Malcolm X used to say that one can tell a lot about a society by taking note of how teen-agers dress.

[Blue-Jay]

50. Disgusting. Parents should not try to "tart up" kids.

[BlooInBloo]

62. 2nd-ed

[eridani]

51. The problem is the level that the parents take it to

Left in the kids' hands, it would be glorified dress-up and a lot of fun. The kids for sure did not pick or make these costumes. Same phenomenon with kids' sports--parents' egos get way too involved.

[OneBlueSky]

63. parents who use their children to try to compensate . . .

for something lacking in their own lives are always a danger to those children . . . doesn't matter if it's beauty pageants, sports, entertainment, academics, or whatever . . .

parents who try to live out their personal fantasies through their children are among the worst kinds of abusers . . .

[MichaelHarris]

64. Hey that chick's pretty hot

Ooops shit never mind.


Now you see why it's wrong to doll young girls up. You teach them to not be their age and they learn how to fool others into letting them into bad situations. 13 year olds at Frat parties and things just like it. They are taught how to use their looks to gain entry into the adult world, they learn how to be something they are not. Young men and some older men are sometimes trapped into situations with these girls who have been taught how to dress and act like someone they are not.

I am in no way condoning any man's behavior when it comes to seducing young women but what else can be the product of "baby beauty shows"? Six year olds do not need to be in high heels, six year olds do not need fake eyelashes. Six year olds need to be playing with dolls and interacting with their peers.

My subject line may have shocked you, it was supposed to. It's time we let children be children again. It's time to spare the child and whup the shit out of the parent. This child never got to be a child and that started with her Mom.

[Jamastiene]

66. It has to be said, no matter how unpopular this opinion is...

No one should have to endure listening to a 5 year old sing when most of those kids cannot sing. I heard one tonight on Primetime that made me was to borrow my stepdad's chainsaw and crank it, just so I could hear something a little more melodic.

Those pictures: Talk about eye candy for a child molestor. I mean, come on. That's deranged and perverted that they'd put their children in front of anybody and everybody to be ogled like that.

[theHandpuppet]

68. BRAVO did a miniseries on this subject

The cable channel aired several miniseries on parental obsessions: Showbiz Moms & Dads; Sportskids Moms & Dads; Showdogs Moms & Dads.

The only one I watched, Showdogs Moms & Dads, was bizarre enough but I literally could not sit through even one installment of Showbiz Moms & Dads. The whole thing made my skin crawl. I felt so sorry for those kids because these parents were majorly disturbed. Goddess knows what kind of damage they were doing to their children.

I did a google search for Showbiz Moms and Dads and here are just a few of the links:
http://www.bravotv.com/Showbiz_Moms_&_Dads/Extras/About.shtml
http://worldofwonder.net/archives/showbiz_moms_dads.wow
http://www.nationalreview.com/seipp/seipp200404211132.asp

BTW, if you want to read about how young girls are used and abused in the world of competitive gymnastics, I'd recommend the book Little Girls in Pretty Boxes. Let me tell you, you'll never watch another gymnastics competition in quite the same way.

[Stockholm]

69. Agreed

:puke:

[Lerkfish]

70. a "normal" child beauty contest is not bad, where you send in a cute baby

photo at a local grocery store or something.
However, THESE contests are a pedophile's wet dream: dressing up the girls in provocative outfits with makeup, etc.
What are the parents thinking?

[yasmina27]

72. Bloody hell...

Maybe I'm OVERLY paranoid, but I won't even send my kids pics via e-mail or set up a family pic web page. I don't want some sicko surfing the net to find my babies (8 & 10 yo) and decide to make them their next obsession. I'm sure it's just my motherly bias, but my girls are gorgeous! :)

When the older girl was about 3 yo, we got an invitation to enter her in a local beauty contest. It went right into the circular file in our kitchen.

[patricia92243]

75. I wonder if Patsy Ramsey feels that being in beauty contest in any way

contributed to the death of her daughter. I have always assumed whoever killed her had seen her pictures, stalked her, and then killed her.

Can't help but wonder if there were no beauty contests for her if she would still be alive.

[Philosoraptor]

76. Being cynical, I thought the same thing.

In fact, I'll bet that this point is eventually discovered to be true.

[cynatnite]

78. A lot more young girls from beauty pageants would be dead...

if that were the case.

Whether a person likes these pageants or not, I don't blame them for what happened to this little girl. I blame the killer. The little girl wasn't asking for it and neither were her parents. The killer is responsible.

I do think the Ramsey's asked a lot of 'what ifs' over the years. A lot of families do when it comes to tragedies. It doesn't make them any more responsible.

[Lerkfish]

79. it also doesn't make them any LESS responsible.

just because they had a tragedy does not mean any behaviour on their part leading up to the tragedy absolves them of any responsibility.

[cynatnite]

114. That's like saying they asked for it...

just like a woman wearing a short skirt asks for it, just like someone who doesn't lock their door asks for it, etc.

It's a lame argument to make.

The responsibility lies at the killer's feet.

[JI7]

125. yup, Elizabeth Smart and a bunch of other girls have been kidnapped

and/or killed and they had nothing to do with beauty pageants. just look at the few cases in California that got huge attention. the girls were just being girls playing with their friend and some perverted asshole goes after them.

the problem that many have with beauty pageants aren't about what the perverts will do as much as just what the kids go through. similar to the fanatic fathers when it comes to their sons and winning in sports games.

[LWolf]

81. Yes, and how about

those who send their 3rd grade daughters to school wearing shirts that say "sexy" in sequins across the chest or "bootilicious" across the backside of the shorts?

[Lerkfish]

82. perhaps one difference would be that the sponsors of these contests

already know about the problem, IIRC, when JBR was killed, there were stories about how the pageant directors were aware of the stalking pedophile problem, to the point that they stopped selling videos of the pageants because they were ending up on the pedophile black market.

I think that's a little bit different from fashion statements at school.

[LWolf]

116. Yes, it's different.

I don't think putting "sexy" and "bootilicious" on 8-yo girls is a fashion statement, though. I see it as inviting pedophiles to admire your daughters, much the same as the "fashion" done at children's beauty pageants, if not as organized and conscious.

[JI7]

126. pedophiles are pedophiles

they will go after the child dressed in overalls playing with toys.

the thing is that kids should be allowed to be kids. let them have a childhood without worrying about whether they are "sexy" or whatever else they don't really understand at that age.

i hear the "sexy" and "bootilicious" type shirts for little girls are more common in England. i'm just wondering how any parent could allow their young kids to wear that. i bet many who don't allow it would probably not allow it even if they knew no pervert would see it.

[ima_sinnic]

84. how twisted and sad. the last little girl does look sad, you can see

it in her eyes. what a nightmare for a child, though some may not even realize it at the time. I saw a brief excerpt somewhere of the mothers behind the scenes and they are a domineering, abusive, sorry, creepy bunch.

[ecstatic]

85. What about child actors/actresses?

Kids are everywhere in the media--from magazines, to commercials, to sitcoms, to movies... Are those parents wrong too?

[MUSTANG_2004]

88. I think so

As a parent, I wouldn't subject my kids to the pressures that the child actors have to deal with. But then, I think the parents who push hard on sports are just as bad.

[transeo]

115. I think it depends

Some parents of child actors are very responsible about making sure the kids still attend school and use the money they make wisely. Others are totally messed up about it and take advantage of their kids' talents.

However, the pagaent thing is truly messed up. They make these little girls into Vegas showgirls. It's just twisted.

[NC_Nurse]

87. Indeed.

Beauty pageants in general are stupid, anachronistis bullshit IMO. But dressing up children like
adult women and sexualizing them is REALLY a bad idea. It's seems like people these days would be smarter than that.
I mean have they never heard of pedophilia? Are they not ADVERTISING their child to those people? How completely
assinine, if not certifiable.

[Beelzebud]

98. For some reason it reminds me a dog show for kids...

Parading them around like property. It sickens me as well...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

99. That's just PAINFUL to look at. Gah.

And people LIKE that?

Too fucked up.

I'm very proud to say none of that bullshit exists in Brazil.

[LostinVA]

102. Totally agree -- I even agree with Dr. Phil on this one!