Regarding the JonBenet Ramsey suspect...

[Archae]

Why the bloody hell is he already tried and convicted, in the media and here?

What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty? :grr:

[Philosoraptor]

1. something VVVEEEERRRYYY strange going on here

[napi21]

2. Gee, suppose because he confessed????? n/t

[MercutioATC]

5. Yep, that did it for me.

I don't get all of the outrage over the media saying he's guilty when he's CONFESSED to the crime.

[Archae]

8. Confessed to whom?

Remember, he was busted in Thailand, where they do torture suspects.

[MercutioATC]

12. So the Thai police tortured him into confessing to a 10-year-old murder

in another country that's completely unrelated to the charges they were holding him on?

Sounds a little farfetched, no?

[Archae]

16. Not at all.

People in other countries are still "confessing" to killing the Lindbergh baby.

[MercutioATC]

18. I was responding to your "torture" statement.

Yes, there are people who confess to crimes they didn't commit, but that has nothing to do with torture (at least not in this case).

[arwalden]

23. Wow... I Did Not Know That.

You sure do know a lot. :hi:

[WinkyDink]

46. Link to any? Because a joke doesn't an argument support.

[Kelvin Mace]

56. He apparently gave an exclusive interview

to an AP reporter. That hardly sounds like he was "tortured".

Edit: Sorry this was meant for the poster above you.

[jobycom]

20. To the cops, to the media, for starters.

He confessed to reporters after his interrogation. Usually someone who has been tortured will recant when they are away from the torturers.

There's always the chance that he's claiming credit for something he didn't do, that he picked up the "secret facts" of the case from the reporter he had been communicating with.

"In an interview with The Associated Press, John Mark Karr said that he contacted JonBenet’s mother, Patsy, before she died of cancer in June to express his remorse for the killing.

“I conveyed to her many things, among them that I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet,” Karr said as U.S. and Thai authorities escorted him from his Bangkok hotel, where he spent over an hour packing his belongings.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14379566/

[niyad]

55. okay, he confessed to patsy--and THIS didn't make the news? wonder

why that is, unless that is what got the authorities on his trail???

[Tulum_Moon]

53. He did not look tortured

Why is everything a conspiracy? The Fucker confessed!

[movie_girl99]

65. I read that he wrote letters to Patsy before she died

apologizing for what he'd done.

[Jed Dilligan]

9. Any high-profile murder like this,

there is a flood of false confessions. Letters, e-mails, people turning themselves in... The question is what makes this guy more credible.

[Kelvin Mace]

58. Apparently,

according to the DA, he knows facts about the crime scene not released to the public.

As there was DNA evidence, I am sure that will be next.

[ananda]

3. His ex says..

.. Karr was with her in Alabama when JB was killed.

[ScreamingMeemie]

4. What I had read was that he had confessed.

:shrug:

That he apologized and said it was an accident. Am I wrong somewhere?

[Clark2008]

7. Yeah - his ex says he was with her at the time and has photos to prove it.

Karr sounds like has severe issues, such as confessing to crimes he wasn't in the vicinity to commit.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. None of us knows, but talk is talk so ...yes people are going to think

he's guilty. He confessed.

[Kelvin Mace]

61. Again

according to the DA, he knows things about the crime only the killer would know. If his DNA matches that found on the girl, I would say that clinches it.

Also, he is a convicted sex offender.

[Fleshdancer]

6. well he did confess to murder

There's certainly reason to question whether his confession is real or not but judging someone who confesses to raping and murdering a 6 year old isn't exactly outrageous. Innocent or not, the man is nuts in my opinion.

[Nimrod2005]

11. He already confessed...Few times.

I say fry his ass now, not trial or other type bullshit.

[Archae]

13. And if his confession was coerced or a lie?

Then what would you say?

[philosophie_en_rose]

17. And if his conviction is improper... and if aliens are controlling him...

and if you weren't a witness... and if the act wasn't on video with his grandmother there to identify him...


:eyes:


There comes a point at which one can have a reasonable belief that an event occurred.

[fishwax]

36. sure, there comes such a point, but it usually doesn't come within 24 hrs

[bikesein]

19. Good point

It is a little late for those questions if the state already 'fried' him.

[MercutioATC]

24. A lie? Perhaps. Coerced? Highly unlikely.

There would be no plausible scenario for Thai authorities to coerce somebody to confess to a 10-year-old crime committed in another country that's not related to their current case.

Might Karr have lied? Yes, it's possible, but he would have to have known facts about the case that weren't released to the public. Possible, but not likely.

[WinkyDink]

47. Bribed because he's dying, to get $$ to take care of his family?

[napi21]

21. NO! we MUST follow our system of laws, and that means due process,

and a trial and judgement by a jury!

I see no problem with the public asuming guilt since he confessed, and even appologized, but just because you get pi**ed off at the evil crime someone committed does NOT mean you scrap our justice system!

[LostinVA]

28. Even though there's an alibi that he wasn't even in Colorado at the time?

That he was living with his wife and sons in Alabama then? That he spent Christmas Eve with his family? This is his ex saying this -- the ex who loathed him so much she divorced him and won full custody with no visiting rights.

So... the hell with due process just because?

I would love to see someone convicted of this murder, but the right person. I would like to see some evidence such as DNA, or proof that he WASN'T in Colorado at the time.

[Kelvin Mace]

62. Gee, and here I thought we were a liberal group.

[philosophie_en_rose]

14. Because he confessed, maybe.

:shrug:

Because, if someone admits to committing a heinous crime, it is not unreasonable to believe them.

Because personal opinions do not require a criminal conviction, especially considering a blatant admission.

Because personal opinions, though hurtful, are not on the level of criminal punishment necessitating criminal procedure.

[Philosoraptor]

15. A confession alone is not enough to convict believe it or not

[joeunderdog]

32. I heard recently that they had a semen sample on the body.

It didn't match the father, so he should have been taken off the hook long ago if this is true. If there's a match to the new suspect, it would be a smoking gun--and a slam dunk if you throw in a confession.

[intaglio]

22. Confessions are not the whole story

There have been many cases of people - some under duress, some not - confessing to notorious cases and later being shown to be innocent. The UK requires that if someone confesses it cannot be the sole evidence against them in any future trial. So, yes, this person has confessed now back up that confession with hard evidence.

[jobycom]

25. He confessed to the cops, to the AP, and to Mrs. Ramsey, he claims

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14379566/

BANGKOK, Thailand - The suspect in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey said he loved the 6-year-old beauty queen “very much” and is “very sorry for what happened.”

In an interview with The Associated Press, John Mark Karr said that he contacted JonBenet’s mother, Patsy, before she died of cancer in June to express his remorse for the killing.

“I conveyed to her many things, among them that I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet,” Karr said as U.S. and Thai authorities escorted him from his Bangkok hotel, where he spent over an hour packing his belongings.

----------------

SO I believe his confession wasn't coerced. There's the chance it's a false confession for some reason or another (usually either deep guilt over something he can't tell anyone, or for publicity purposes). Supposedly he knew details that have never been released. But he could have picked those up somewhere else.

Seems convincing, though. But certainly HE wants people to believe it.

[fishwax]

37. I don't understand why his statement to mrs. ramsey is construed as a

confession: "I conveyed to her many things, among them that I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet." To me it seems natural for anyone talking to the mother of a slain child to say they were sorry for what happened to their child, and so the statement could easily be construed as an expression of regret rather than responsibility. I've seen the comment elsewhere (on message boards and in news stories) that he confessed to the mother, though with only the same ambiguous statement to support it.

[jobycom]

42. Well, if you want to parse words, I guess

the articles I've read only imply that he confessed to Mrs. Ramsey, but I haven't seen a full text of the interview.

However, when asked directly by the media whether he was innocent, he said "no." Clearly, he's saying he killed her. I saw one place where he emphasized that it was second degree murder, and not first degree murder. Again, maybe it's a false confession, but he clearly wants people to believe he did it.

As for his ex-wife's claim that he was in Alabama at the time of the murder--the police have been investigating him for months, he's been on a short list of suspects for years. It seems more than likely that they would have checked on possible alibis long ago. They could have made a mistake, but it's not like anyone is rushing to judgement. The man has been a suspect for a long time, the police finally decided they had enough evidence to arrest him, he was interrogated by American investigators in Thailand (no Thai were present, so torture is unlikely, since that would destroy their case), he confessed, then he confessed publicly to the media.

I mean, that's not a rush to judgement. It could still be wrong, but if it is, this man was not only in the unique situation of being a suspect, but also was the type of person to confess to heinous crimes he didn't commit, and then only after ten years and only after being arrested for the crime based on other evidence (although some of that evidence seems to have been based on conversations with a journalism professor, so it could tie in with a need to confess to crimes he didn't committ). All of that is a lot of unlikely coincidence. It could still be coincidence, but again, the media is hardly rushing to judgement.

[fishwax]

66. i don't dispute that he's confessed to the media or the police, but words

are still worth parsing, and while I've seen the statement that "he even confessed to the mother" used to bolster the case against him, I haven't really seen where he said he confessed to the mother. That seems to be, in the few articles I have read, an assumption made by the media based on a thoroughly ambiguous statement.

I don't really no much about the investigation, the ex-wife's alibi, and the rest, as I've never really been particularly interested in this case. It has always struck me as tragic, but I haven't really followed it closely or discussed it in-depth, except to occasionally play devil's advocate to people who insisted the family must be guilty. From what you say, it seems that the investigators have done a lot of leg work on this one.

The fact that investigators have not rushed to judgement, of course, would not preclude the media from rushing to judgement. And I'm not even saying that the media is rushing to judgement, just that I have repeatedly seen what seems to be an unsupported assertion with respect to his confession to the mother; and, if there is some support for that assertion, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[Kelvin Mace]

64. More text from, his interview

"I conveyed to her many things, among them that I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet," Karr said as U.S. and Thai authorities escorted him from his Bangkok hotel, where he spent over an hour packing his belongings.

Karr said it was his understanding that Patsy Ramsey read letters that he sent to her. He said JonBenet's death was "an accident."

"It's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much and that her death was unintentional," said Karr, who sweated and stuttered occasionally as he spoke in a quiet voice.

Asked for details of how she died, Karr replied: "It would take several hours to describe — to describe that."

"There's no way I could be brief about it. It's a very involved series of events," said Karr, who speaks with a thick Southern accent. "It's very painful for me to talk about."

"I was with JonBenet when she died," he told reporters. Asked if he was innocent, he said: "No."

[fishwax]

69. that's exactly what I mean

"I conveyed to her many things, among them that I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet," Karr said as U.S. and Thai authorities escorted him from his Bangkok hotel, where he spent over an hour packing his belongings.

That could as easily be a statement of regret rather than a confession.

I've never doubted or disputed that he confessed to investigators or the media. I was just wondering whether the frequent statement that he confessed to the mother was at all substantiated, or whether that assertion was based entirely on the quotation above.

[Kelvin Mace]

70. The ultimate test will be DNA

If it matches what was found on the girl, that clinches it.

[underpants]

26. Yes good fight, pick this one it will surely help

:eyes:

Sorry that guy gives me the willies.

This is going to play out so just let it do that.

[Balbus]

27. This guy didn't do it - he's a nutjob looking for attention knowing

he's going to get exonerated.

He confessed to picking the little girl up from school and taking her to the basement - yet there was no school due to christmas vacation. He confessed that he lived in Colorado and was stalking the little girl for some time. Yet there are no postal or tax records that he ever lived or had an address in Colorado. And his ex-wife states he was in Alabama during that time and has photos to prove it. This murder is still unsolved.

[LostinVA]

29. I know -- it's weird

The Denver Post has some good articles about it today.

He never lived in Colorado, JonBenet was with her parents at a party until lateish on Christmas Eve, and his ex wife gives him a firm alibi (and, she divorced him and won full custody with no visitation rights after his child porn charges). He's disturbed and skeevy, but I don't think he killed little JonBenet.

[Beausoir]

30. According to the AP, he also confessed to Patsy Ramsey before she died

Now...what is that all about? ANd why wouldn't Patsy Ramsey scream and holler from the rooftops about this?

[wanpete]

34. Amen to that! It's just still hard to believe that a stranger came into

that house, as intricate as it is, and killed this little girl late at night on Christmas. It doesn't make sense. The investigation got totally screwed up from the moment they let the family and friends roam all over the house when cops were searching for her.

I doubt seriously that anyone could truly ever be convicted of this crime.

[WinkyDink]

50. EXACTLY. It is the Silence of the Ramseys that puts the lie to this

hogwash.

They finally found the EVIL SADIST who MURDERED their beloved child in their OWN HOME, and they SIT on this "confession" until Patsy dies?

PUH-LEEZE. John Ramsey knows this Karr is a sick but innocent man.

[jobycom]

52. Some questions about that.

Did he say he picked her up from class, and not from a Christmas show or school function? Has John Ramsey, who would presumably know that his daughter was out of school and would have a good idea of whether she was being picked up at school, retracted his comments about believing this was the culprit? Has anyone yet explained where the suspect got all the money he seems to have had, that he traveled the world with? If he was wealthy from other sources, he may not have worked in CO, so there would be no tax records.

It just seems to me that as long as this man has been a suspect, and given the fact that they had a warrant to arrest him, that the police and the judge and the DA would have at least required some evidence that he could have committed the crime. They've had many confessions to this crime, remember, according to the Boulder PD over the years. They do have experience at weeding out obvious scammers.

As for his ex-wife and the pictures, it's possible she believes he is innocent and therefore helped him create an alibi.

You may be right. If so, the police have done one of the worst investigation jobs in history on this man. All of your objections are the kinds of things cops and lawyers are trained to look for from the beginning.

[wanpete]

31. His story sounds artificial thus far...he seems mentally ill and obsessed

with the case and with this little girl. He probably very well is a pedophile, but I do not believe at this point, that he killed her. I will wait for the evidence that proves it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. Is he one of those "confessor" guys that used to show up on detective

programs? The guy would show up at the precinct house whenever there was a big crime & be a nuisance.

[wanpete]

35. He certainly looks the type...very weird, in need of attention, and

most assuredly, mentally ill. Reports indicate that he was obsessed with the case and highly knowledgeable about the events. He's not believable to me at this point. Where's the evidence?

[JohnnyLib]

38. I'll stick my neck out

False confession.

[ecstatic]

39. The media seems to have pulled the ex-wife alibi story

I'm looking all over for it but can't find it!

[LostinVA]

45. No, it's still all over

I just saw it on cnn and denverpost.com just a few minutes ago -- I was sending it to my mom.

[Jersey Devil]

40. Phony confession? They always withhold facts only the killer could know

and the first accounts of his confession said the same thing, that he confessed to details that were never made public. We'll find out what those details were later. They will not give them out now on the chance that they may have the wrong guy, as unlikely as that may be.

[EC]

41. How about knowing facts that weren't released

prior? He confessed and knew things not released to the press.

[WinkyDink]

51. That supports my theory that JR is paying this guy off to confess.

JR's having fed Karr the inside info.

[LostinVA]

57. Facts that weren't released publicly

It doesn't mean they aren't known by lots of people who talked to lots of people, who talked to even more people, who posted on crime message boards, Jon-Benet message boards, etc. There have been a few message board people who have had lots of inside information over the years.

They were very, very few evidence keys left that hadn't already been released or written about.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out...

[gauguin57]

43. i do think it's weird -- his ex sez he wasn't there at time of crime. AND.

AND ... ex-wife says he was obsessed with J-B and Polly Klaas cases. From all the news stories today, it seems he lived in two places that the Ramsey's lived, and also lived in Petaluma, where Polly was killed.

He could be an attention-seeking freak who had nothing to do with this. Or he could be guilty as sin.

DNA will tell.

And BTW ... the MSM has to stop saying "he allegedly had sex with her." He did NOT allegedly "have sex" with her, he allegedly RAPED her!

[johnnie]

44. AND

He claims he drugged her and there were no signs of drugs or alcohol in her system according to the autopsy.

[LostinVA]

48. He never lived in Colorado, though

And became obsessed with little JonBenet after she was killed...

Agree on the "have sex with."

[smirkymonkey]

68. However, Polly Klaas's killer was caught, othewise he would

probably be confessing to that murder as well.

I don't know why, but I think this is a stunt. I just don't believe him.

[marlakay]

49. What gets me is the "I drugged her" statement

The article I read said they tested her blood and found no drugs in her. I read he was already up for charges of child porn so maybe he figures if he has to go to jail why not be famous...he is nuts!!!

I keep thinking though, the police know what he said and still arrested him, even after his drug statements and those from ex wife. I don't think they would go through all this publicity and bringing him back from Asia if they really didn't have some kind of proof other than emails and his confession.

Its weird...

[LostinVA]

60. I actually think they would

The Boulder DA and law enforcement botched this case up big time... I think the Feds and international authorities went along with it because this guy had jumped warrants. No harm in bringing him to heel.

But, even the DA isn't proclaiming him guilty yet.

[LibDemAlways]

54. This morning's public statement by the DA seemed

to indicate that authorities were happy to have caught up with him because he's potentially dangerous and a flight risk. She seemed to hedge a lot on his connection to this case - kept emphasizing there's a lot more work to do. If he's returned to Colorado soon, though, they'll have to file charges or let him go. If she doesn't have all her ducks lined up, this could be a huge embarrassment.

[Connie_Corleone]

59. the guy is a nutcase and a pervert. But I don't think he killed Ramsey.

He was obsessed with this case. I'll wait for the DNA results before saying he's guilty.

He does need to be locked up for the child porn alone.

[LostinVA]

63. Agreed n/t

[lies and propaganda]

67. becasue the Ramseys killed her

and dad works for scary ass Lockheed Martin.

[H2O Man]

71. The presumption of innocence

is a legal concept that has to do with a person's rights within the court system. It has no meaning in the public discussions, no matter if they occure in the context of a televised report on his admitting to the crime at a press conference, or if it is co-workers at a water cooler.

[dogday]

72. Why were the Ramseys convicted before their inquiry

and even after they were cleared of charges, they were still guilty in the eyes of the public in most part, thanks to the media.. Yep the same media which now is convicting this dude and feeling sorry for poor Patsy.... Good Grief... give me a break....