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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:32 PM
Original message
Poll question: JonBenet Ramsey
I'm just curious. There are clear differences between the sexes - I wonder if there is a difference on how we view this case based on that. I love DU because we can actually talk about these things!

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. okay other... waiting for the explanation :)
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Other: I am a man and I care about every case like this, BUT...
...it bothers me that the media (and, by extention, we ) choose who is worthy of attention and who's not.

Hundreds of children are murdered every year. We only hear about the attractive, blonde, wealthy ones.

That bothers me.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. That is an excellent point - why I chose that I am concerned with
EVERY case that involves abuse of a child (be that child rich, poor, white or not).
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I think that almost all of us feel that way, but some are disgusted
that one wealthy white blonde girl who's been dead for 10 years gets all of this coverage when there are "less newsworthy" kids dying every day who we never hear about.

They don't lack compassion, they're just fed up with the process.
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:38 PM
Original message
The media was used by the Boulder PD
They gave what info they wanted release to "get" the parents. The media went along with it due to ratings but they wouldn't have had a story if the cops weren't releasing the info.

I blame the Boulder PD more then the media.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Right now, in MI, our "top story" is on a missing black child who's
body was just found in Romulus. :cry:

Needless to say I was stunned they ran it first.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I'm stunned, too. Good for them.
If they're still talking about her in 2016, she'll have gained the same media status as JonBenet Ramsey.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is something to be acknowledged and then dismissed
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 11:39 PM by jpgray
Everyone with a sense of empathy cares when a child is mistreated and then murdered. However having tons of time/space spent on it during network news or on a political forum seems wasteful to me. This case just doesn't merit this much attention--time could be better spent elsewhere, as there isn't much to discuss here that hasn't already been hashed out years and years ago.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. perhaps. This poll was for me to see if there was a difference in how
the sexes viewed it. Perhaps that is inappropriate on a political forum.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Your options being "I care/don't care about child abuse" won't get results
Because everyone cares about a case involving the abuse/death of a child. The issue is whether this individual case deserves front-and-center attention in the news and in our discussions here. I for one don't believe it does, even while I care about the case and the issue.
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Nicole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. I am a woman and I care about every case involving abuse of a child. n/t
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. I am a woman
who thinks maybe we should have a separate forum on JonBenet. I cared/care, but I couldn't/can't
do a darn thing about it. I learned a long time ago to let go of things I couldn't change.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I am a woman
who was molested who has a daughter approaching the age I was when it happened and feel compelled to make the cause of protecting our children a main priority. I don't know if that is right or wrong. I am simply compelled.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can't believe you just authored the most sexist poll ever
in the history of DU! :spank:
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Naw, it was a valid question.
There are issues which different genders handle differently.

I don't have a problem with that.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's not sexist, but I'd say the wording is a bit off
There's a wide gulf between not thinking this particular case deserves so much attention and not caring about child abuse.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. That, I agree with.
I care, I'm just bothered by the fact that only wealthy white girls get attention when they're killed.

JonBenet's death was a bad thing, but she's been dead for 10 years. How many poor minority kids have been killed in the last 10 years? Did we hear about any of them?
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. was waiting for this response but as I've said, there are clear
differences between the sexes and I love DU for being able to discuss such things.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Me too.
I was just being a little more literal than usual. :)
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. I am a scientist and I find it interesting that a white proto-whore whose
parents are over-controlling empty-lifed fundy fucked-up pieces of shit who abused their daughter to feed their own need for self-validation and their own sick agenda who gets killed gets so much media attention when so many other child murders, esp. of minorities, get no attention at all.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
20. Other--the kid is dead, her mama is too
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 11:59 PM by MADem
The police did a shitty job, and absent confessions, it's unlikely that case will ever be solved.

That schoolteacher they arrested...will the handwriting match? Could the teacher have been that stupid as to make the errors seen in that note? Can the pervert afford a good lawyer? Will he be strung up, no matter what, just to put the case behind them--a sacrificial lamb?

NYT article, interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/17/us/17jonbenet.html?hp...

Ms. Lacys statement provided no details about what had led investigators to the suspect or why, if they had been on his trail for some time, they swooped down on him yesterday. Nor did she spell out what charges he would face, and it was not clear how soon he would be returned to this country. Ms. Lacys statement said she would not comment further until a news conference this morning, and calls to her office were not returned.

The suspect was identified by a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case publicly, as John M. Karr. The Associated Press quoted a lawyer who represented the Ramseys in the 1990s as saying Mr. Karr had lived in Conyers, Ga. The Ramseys lived in an Atlanta suburb, Dunwoody, about 30 miles away, before they moved to Colorado.

The Associated Press initially reported that Mr. Karr, 42, was already in custody in Bangkok on an unrelated sex charge when he was arrested in the Ramsey case. Later The A.P. quoted Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul, the head of Thailands immigration police, as saying he was unaware of any criminal charges against Mr. Karr in Thailand. The A.P. quoted another Thai official as saying Mr. Karr had denied committing a crime at home.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. i just wonder..where are the polls about all the children we are killing
in iraq??

3400 + Iraqi's were killed last month because of our country starting an illegal war in Iraq..i do resent this 24/7 story that is 10 yrs old when we can't even get a decent true story of the carnage in Iraq..

before * started this war in Iraq over 50% of Iraqi's were under the age of 15..so where is the concern of all the children we have gotten killed??

gee they don't have blonde hair and cowboy outfits right??

it's not that i don't care..its the priorities and the desparate housewife mentality and the damn entertainment way the media goes about this that gags me!

i shut my tv off today..i don't want to watch this b.s. when this same media ignores all the children we have killed or our bombs have killed..in the past 3 years!

all children should be treated equal..

this admin is a bunch of sick murderers..and we entertain ourselves with one child from 10 years ago while ignoring the murder being done in our name every day..

shaking head here..

fly
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. Other: I am a man & when I hear the phrase "six year old beauty pageant ..
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 11:58 PM by laststeamtrain
...queen" I think this kid never had a chance. What kind of psycho-bitch mother enters a little girl in a beauty pageant?
Sometime in the early '80s I was at the Orange County Fair & while waiting for Roy Orbison (included in the price of admission!)I witnessed the wrap-up of one of these little girl beauty pageants and I was appalled. Nobody looked happy, win or lose. And the moms all looked demented.
I know people who've read Larry Schiller's book about the case but I don't want to talk about it with them.
I always assumed it was a rage murder by the mom & dad had 'checked out' of family life long before but tried to cover things up...
I don't know what the new development means & I don't much care. Like I say I don't think the kid ever had a chance.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. too judgmental
but probably how most people who mentally convicted the parents felt about the case. That is, because the Ramseys displayed their daughter like that (abuse), then they must have gone further and killed her. Of course the police and the media promoted this idea, so it sold very well. Brainwashing.

Yes, the beauty pageants are appalling but look at our culture for a minute. Look at how we fetishize children in general. For young girls, appearances are everything. I have a teenage niece right now, very smart but completely bamboozled by the need to primp and shop for the right "look" all the time. It's to the level of sick obsession. Her parents have never promoted this. It's a cultural thing. C'mon parents, you know this is true. They hijack our daughters (sons too) and parents just go along with it.

Look at the ways in which children are fetishized BEYOND issues of fashion and display. Look at the adolescent sports scene, for example. Look at the competition for grades and academic achievement.
Or the competition for who owns what material object. It's everywhere, even in poor families.

Many children become the receptacle for all their parents' hopes and dreams in this country. Look at the levels of suffocation and helicoptering. Look at the level of obsession with a child's every waking move and thought. Talk to some teachers and counsellors about it if you don't believe me.

This is no place to be so lofty and judgmental of the misguided parents. Blame the culture. Blame the media. We all need to take some responsibility instead of blaming it entirely on the parents. There are many subtle forms of abuse of children in this country. This isn't the worst.
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. You're right. Good points taken...
...I've been an Uncle but not a Father. I've seen different styles of parenting. The styles furthest removed from 'pop' culture seem to have worked out best.

Some parents really do live thru their kids & that's sad.

I know a couple that divorced recently. She was ultra-involved in her two daughters & something called 'dance squad'. He had the most ordered & clean garage/work space I've ever seen. The daughters graduated from High School & there wasn't much left to stay married about.

My post does sound way too judgmental. I've just known since forever I was my own only child & never really wanted to take on the job of raising kids. It must be hellish if you take it seriously.





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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. thanks for reply
and for underscoring my point--that many parents today are living through their kids to a point that is destructive-- to marriages, to the kids very often, to themselves in the end. We need to have some compassion for them IMO. It's not only about overindulgence and classic spoiling. I see it all around me now, parents constantly worried about their kids. And I'm not SURE you CAN keep the children from some of the fearful pitfalls out there. One kid I know had parents who raised her in a very wholesome environment, not materially indulged, away from all the distractions and craziness in our society. But they also were a bit too restrictive perhaps, too protective...it's a fine line. To their horror when she went to college she blithely moved in with her (professor) boyfriend, 18 years older. Talk about a parent's worst nightmare. There are no guarantees in parenting.

This sad state of living through kids reflects our culture--it's easier to overprotect children rather than come to terms with the outside forces driving the fears and behaviors. These forces are complex and overwhelming. Even intelligent parents can sink into narcissistic identification with their children as they're growing up and focus on the kids' relatively uncomplicated activities to the point of obsession. That way you don't have to think about how scary the world is. OK these beauty pageants encompass performing, song and dance of a cutesy sort that's pretty repugnant, but is it ANY worse really than the sports scene that parents get all caught up in...or the science fair competitions, or the marching band clubs-- maybe a little shallower, but not by much. The stakes are too high in all of them.

Gotta remember that for parents, kids represent their biggest investment in the future. Especially these days to raise kids is an act of faith, blind faith that the future will be OK for them. But we're not so sure about that in this Reign of Boosh...

Also people so desperately want to belong, and for their kids to belong...not easy in such a transitory society. They try to 'create community'...which suddenly dries up when the kids leave home, because it's all been focused on them. I am on the parents' side in this. When you blame parents for what you consider over-parenting, over-involvement--you have to take into consideration the cultural pressures on them.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. Jesus
We don't know who did what....nor to what degree it matters.The "keep the eye on the ball" meme comes to mind.A young girl was murdered.Does she reflect any other recent deaths elsewere???
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. I am a cat and I want someone to scratch my butt. nt
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. Of course I care.
A little girl was murdered. It's sick and awful and tragic, and I hope her soul is at peace.

But then again, in my book, "caring" doesn't necessarily equate to "wanting to hear all the gory details of the case replayed in the MSM for the next 10+ years." :shrug:
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. I voted "other"
While I believe that child predators should be prosecuted, I object to this being covered by the media.
Maybe just a scrolling line saying an arrest had been made, but certainly nothing further. Oh, and only this because there has been so much media attention already.

There are so many cases which are not covered, and just because these people happened to be wealthy, it is not enough reason to cover it.

Now, if there was a predator operating in an area and the public needed to be informed, that is pertinent information and I believe the public needs to be informed. Just the same as if a serial killer was on the loose.

I maintain that the DA need to do their jobs and being tried in the court of public opinion is a waste of time. There are far more issues which need coverage which are being ignored.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
27. Other - I care about everything
But I care about some things more than others.
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bookman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
28. Other..
..the reason I care about this case is it is the prime example of why media can overkill a story and cause harm.

We should get FACTS on the news, not wild specuation and opinion.

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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
29. Other
I've got a functioning sense of empathy so of course I care at least somewhat about the whole thing; I don't, however, think it's important to monopolize every major news outlet in the United States for a full day when there's far, far more important things out there to worry about.
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PBass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Other
This is still a website to discuss politics, isn't it? I don't see any political interest in all these JonBenet threads.

The other day the actor Bruno Kirby died, and there was a thread here about it... why? Was he a political activist? (I really don't know... I didn't bother to read the thread).

What's next... "BOBO the elephant had her birthday at the zoo"? Just because the nightly news sucks, doesn't mean we have to mirror it here.

I would think ONE thread about Jon Benet would be PLENTY. I don't know why all these threads weren't combined by a moderator???????????

Can we talk about politics now? PLEASE?????
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Someone in another thread raised an interesting point
in that this case is a pretty high-profile example of folks being convicted and crucified by the media, only for it to be revealed years later (if this guy's confession is true) that they were in fact innocent.

I'm sure you can think of some more recent and more politically-relevant instances of people being pilloried as guilty by one organization or another absent formal conviction in a court of law. It's just as real in this case with this kid's parents as it is with, say, the gaggle of possibly-harmless, possibly-deadly folks picked up in Toronto awhile back. Are they guilty of X, Y or Z? I simply don't know, though I know a large chunk of the Canadian population spent some time calling for their extrajudicial execution on the weight of the National Post's screaming alone.

This is simply a fairly high-profile example of that sort of conviction in the court of public opinion (or the court of imposed opinion) falling on its face in the presence of counter-evidence - well after the damage is done.

In other words, you can find political interest in damn near anything if you keep your various sensory appendages open and working, and think outside of the box a little.

Or, y'know, not bother reading the threads that don't interest you, there being hundreds of non-Ramsey threads kicking around every single day, spanning hundreds of thousands of posts.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
32. HI helderheid I have followed this case for years believing the parent NG
:hi:

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