Who among us thought that Ramsey's were guilty?

[CatWoman]

*raises hand*

I know the media has gone into overload on this story, but I'm seeing just how fast and loose they played with the facts in order to paint the Ramsey's guilty.

Rest in Peace, Jon Benet.

Rest in Peace, Patsy.

[shraby]

1. I never thought they were guilty.

They were obviously two loving parents. It's sad when the media can try and convict people in the news without all the facts.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

50. I don't think the mom was a loving mother...

Loving mothers don't dress their 6 year olds up like hookers and then parade them around to try to win money and trophies. :shrug:
Duckie

[Akim]

65. Her Poor Child Was the Proxy for Patsy's Unfulfilled Ambitions n/t

[WinkyDink]

155. Patsy was Miss West Va. Not so "unfulfilled"! It was simply, IMO, her

"lifestyle", her milieu.

[Akim]

195. So Patsy Was Inflicting Her Partially-Realized Dreams On Her Daughter

Fathers do the same thing to their sons with sports.

[zreosumgame]

220. just about every parent does that

if it's sports or academics or pagents. I know it offends some people to put make-up on small girls, well it offends me for any woman any age to cover her supposed 'imperfections'. Sorry, while I considered the idea of them being involved (personally I thought they might be covering for their son as most likely) I never presumed to condem them for the pagents. Some people read waaaay to much into others based on preconceptions.

[Akim]

240. Which Doesn't Make It Right. n/t

[zreosumgame]

245. or wrong

your (or mine for that matter) are yours and welcome to them, but to use them to accuse people of crimes is simply wrong.

[Akim]

257. We Can Hope Our Kids Love What We Love, But We Can't Force Them To

It is not wrong to try to awaken in your children a love for the things you love. But is wrong to force them to embrace your interests by withholding your love or approval.

[sandrakae]

94. I agree.

Patsy Ramsey turned her daughter into a freak show.

[Binka]

107. Indeed! I Have An Absolutely Gorgeous Five Year Old

So fucking gorgeous that people stop dead in their tracks to stare at her. I would no sooner put her in a beauty pageant than I would stick a fork in my eye. Why would I put make up on her and throw her on a stage? Fucking ridiculous! This family and especially the mother was fucked up.

[Horse with no Name]

110. I don't believe in it either

and would never do it.
However, it is a "Southern Thang".
Many families live the pageant life.
It is difficult to put one family in the spotlight for what many do.

[Binka]

115. Southern Thang or Not It Is Abuse

Children do not deserve this kind of torment. Adults involved in this pageant crap are no better than pedophiles in my book. Unrequited dreams foisted on children is abuse.

[Horse with no Name]

116. I agree

But there is a reason that cockfighting is illegal. To discourage the practice.
Children's beauty pageants should go by the wayside of cockfighting.
Until they do--many parents in the Southern states will continue to dress the baby girls up and drag them around from city to city and state to state on the weekends spending thousands of dollars in order to achieve the title of Grand Champion (or whatever they call the winner--I've only shown sheep and cattle).
I've known people who do this and have never heard any good reason to do this.

[Binka]

120. It Is So Sad And Cruel

But because it is done to females it will just go on.

[L A Woman]

252. Don't you wonder about people who look at those girls as sexual?

I have seen lots of footage of Jon-Benet in her little outfits and not once did a sexual thought pop into my head. I would surely wonder about anyone who thinks that way.

P.S. Would you criticize a man who encouraged his young son to play a sport he used to play as a child? What's the difference? The pageants offer scholarships, teach the girls to win and lose with grace, teach them how to speak and perform in public and how to to work hard to achieve a particular goal.

[Dorian Gray]

123. I don't think that she necessarily

didn't love her daughter. Showing off a child can take many different routes. Sometimes even posting a picture on a message board is enough for some to think that the mother isn't protecting her child as well as she could. It may seem innocuous to some, but provocative to others.

I don't think we should judge her for the pageants. Personally, I believe that they are a bad idea for a slew of reasons, and that can be discussed. But it's not fair to say that she didn't love her child... or led to her child's demise because of her involvement with pageantry.

[geiger]

194. she's perfect

and I agree with what you are saying, but I think the JonBenet case illustrates another disturbing element of our competitive/digital/mass media age:

There are stalkers in every segment/tier of our society; they become delusional about how they think they "know someone," when they do not. Our politicians themselves are both deified and villified to the extent that it almost makes it untenable for really qualified people to run and succeed and stay and get things done....

[phylny]

234. I hope your "gorgeous" five year old doesn't know how to

log on to DU - finding her picture for all the world to see and three variations of the word "fuck" all in the same post.

Honestly....

:crazy:

[Name removed]

264. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phylny]

266. Dilemma, dilemma, dilemma.

Respond to someone who has me on ignore? What a quandry!

I'm glad, however, that she didn't disappoint me, language wise :)

(PS, 48 years old, been here for a while, would NEVER POST a picture of my child on an Internet website, especially when I've publicized my family's difficulties regarding an older son who was injured in Iraq. Nope, wouldn't ever do it AND use profanities with my kid's picture there, either.)

[L A Woman]

154. That is no different than asking a rape victim what she was wearing

You and I may not choose to involve our children in pageants, but that really doesn't speak to whether or not she loved her child. The pageants do have some merit in the eyes of many parents - teaching children how to lose gracefully, how to win gracefully, public speaking and performing, and so on.

She wasn't "dressing her up like a hooker" so that yet a pedophile could rape and murder her.

[fishwax]

198. it's not at all like asking a rape victim what she was wearing

She wasn't "dressing her up like a hooker" so that yet a pedophile could rape and murder her.

That's not what YellowRubberDuckie said. YellowRubberDuckie didn't use JonBenet's provocative appearance to excuse (or even explain) the crime. YRD just argued that distorting the child into provocative spectacle at such a young age was a transgression.

[L A Woman]

246. he said "dressing her up like a hooker"

That sounds an awful lot like YRD is blaming the parents for Jon-Benet being sexually attractive to a pedophile.

They weren't dressing her up like a hooker. Only a pedophile would see her in a sexual way, regardless of what she is wearing.

[fishwax]

255. It doesn't sound an awful lot like that to me

At least not in that specific post. I can see where you would draw parallels between the hooker look/she deserved it statements, but I personally took YRD's comments as being that this was a stupid thing to do, not a dangerous thing to do. I took YRD's criticism not to be concerned with how "others" would see her (pedophiles or not) but rather how it might distort the internal development of a young girl to be dressed up provocatively and paraded around for money and trophies.

To believe that these high-stakes pageants present pre-pubescent girls as pseudo-sexual display objects, absorbing destructive and anti-feminine attitudes from the broader culture and retransmitting them into their young contestants, is not the same as believing that Pat Ramsey is guilty in her daughter's death for being a part of that culture.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

260. I didn't say that she was dressing her up...

so that a pedophile could rape and murder her. Someone called Patsy a loving mother and I took issue with it. The rape and murder aside, Patsy used that little girl to fulfill something that she couldn't herself. And that, in my opinion, is not something a loving mother does. They do not push their 6 year old into something like that. Want to teach your kid to lose gracefully, win gracefully? Put them on a tee ball or soccer team. Don't put make up and provacative clothing on her and parade her around.
Duckie

[dbackjon]

181. Amen to that!

[Dorian Gray]

121. Sadly, I think you are in a small minority

I thought that they were guilty, and I am saddened that Jon Benet's mother not only had to live with the suspicion following her, but she died before justice was served. :(

[Akim]

150. Patsy Knew About the Suspect and Died At Peace

Patsy knew at the end that there was a suspect (the police told her). At least she died with the knowledge that her beloved husband would never have to pay for his crime. The ransom note that she faked and all her other prevarications were not in vain.

The self-confessed "killer" has apparently never set foot in Colorado.

[Akim]

158. Because She Knew Her Beloved Husband Got Away With It n/t

[William769]

2. I never could decide.

:shrug:

[mike_c]

3. who among us ever gave a rat's buttocks one way or the other...?

Not me, I'm afraid.

[CatWoman]

14. Hi, Mike

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

27. Yeah, who cares about dead kids

What a waste of human compassion that would be. Better to save it for dead whales I guess.

[LynneSin]

215. Oh I care about dead kids

http://www.missingkids.com/

Here's a whole website of missing kids, probably some of them might have been killed.

When will they have their round-the-clock coverage on TV?

[flyarm]

227. or how about all the murdered children in Iraq with our

fingerprints all over the murders??

oh, i know they didn't have little cowboy outfits on...

but prior to little lord pissy pants starting his illegal war of murder..over 50% of Iraqi citizens were under the age of 15

so how many of those childrens deaths have our name on them??

or how about in Lebanon now..where the bombs that killed and murdered those children had USA on them??

this is a bullshit story to deflect from reality of what is going on in our name!

fly

[LynneSin]

230. Add them to my list

Although it's horrible what happen to that Ramsey girl, her case ranks pretty low compared to the children we have killed in Iraq and the children still without homes or missing from Katrina-ravaged New Orleans. I'd rather have our news cover that ad nauseum!

[sandnsea]

263. Only care about the "politically correct" kids??

Aren't you doing the exact same thing you accuse the media of doing... choosing which kids deserve coverage and which don't??

Any time anything can be done to bring attention to murdered kids, it's okay in my book.

[sandnsea]

261. It's cases like this

that lead to organizations like missing kids and laws to better protect them. I suppose it would be better to have no coverage of murdered kids at all??

[philosophie_en_rose]

173. who cares about murderering little girls, escaping, and teaching in school

:eyes:

[ieoeja]

239. Add my vote to Mike's. n/t

[LiberalEsto]

4. I did

and I still think Patsy wrote the "ransom note." I think she suspected a family member did it, and wrote the note in an ill-conceived effort to cover up. Instead, it caused suspicion to fall on herself and her family.

[SmokingJacket]

139. the ransom note got me, too.

Your theory makes sense.

I was never sure who did it, but it seemed to me that there was -- and is -- much more than meets the eye. They guy who confessed was from Georgia, as were the Ramseys. It's unclear what his Colorado connections are. Did he know them -- a family friend?

A child pornography ring?

Hopefully it will all come out.

[LostinVA]

183. He has no connections with the Ramsey's

Never lived in CO like he confessed he did, and his ex has evidence he was living with her in AL that Xmas Eve.

[SmokingJacket]

188. Hmm.... sounds like a fake confession then...

Very interesting...!

[LostinVA]

190. I think it's more of a bonkers confession

The Denver Post has some really interesting article today: ex wife has a firm alibi for the dude, he never lived in CO lived he confessed he did, facts in his confessions don't add up (drugged little JB, took her from school, etc.). The article quoting his ex and father are very, very informative.

Although, the guy is a skeeve and skipped bail on child porn charges.

[fishwax]

200. it seems like he was long obsessed with this case

and he's apparently got a screw loose--it doesn't seem implausible that a bonkers confession to the crime might be the culmination of that long obsession.

[flyarm]

228. correct and now the media has been doing some serious CYA ..

this is bullshit folks!

fly

[LostinVA]

184. I've always said Patsy covered up the crime

I still tend to believe that, and will until DNA evidence is returned on somebody. Ressler, Lee, etc. believe everything points to an "inside job" -- not necessarily a family member, though. Your theory is a very plausible one, I believe.

[Annces]

The TV show pointed to it being one of the family

because of the ransom note and the odd amount of money requested. I didn't have any feeling that it was the parents. I didn't think the mother was the type to protect the father either.

[wakeme2008]

5. NG from the beginning...

:hi:

[MnFats]

6. i too strongly suspected....still want more details..

any word yet on possible accomplices???
not many details yet.
this is faaarrrrr from over.

[CatWoman]

16. the Boulder DA will hold a press conference

sometime tomorrow....

[hlthe2b]

7. early on, I did..... I did come to have doubts in recent years...

[Bjornsdotter]

8. At first I did

...I can't remember when I changed my mind but it's been years. I did however suspect the brother w/Patsy covering for him for a long time...until I read a book (don't remember the title). Quick review of the book...it was written by someone on the inside of the investigation and according to the author the police & Ramsey's knew who it was but couldn't prove it.

I think this book is where I found out about the unidentified DNA...that's what made the difference for me.

Cheers

[Eric J in MN]

9. I had thought the father did it. NT

NT

[TheDebbieDee]

42. Same here...........

I thought the lack of evidence (at the time) of a stranger in the house proved that it was someone that lived in the house that killed the little girl.

[Stardust]

10. I'm ashamed that I did suspect the family. What a tragedy that

Patsy wasn't exonerated before her death. A terrible tragedy for everyone and I feel very bad for them.

[Jazzgirl]

11. I never did.

I thought it was going to wind up being somebody they knew and trusted. Hmmmm.....teacher anyone??

[fooj]

13. Hey...watch what you say about "teachers"...

We don't ALL fall under the "murder and molestation" category.

[napi21]

12. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I thought John killed her.

I realize the media had a lot to do with thatm and John always seemed too composed and I can't help question anyone who lawyers up right away before they ae even willing to speak to the police.

I guess none of us can help thinking how WE would react i a similar situation, and, wrong as it may be, the last thing I would ever be thinging is talking to a lawyer! I'd be screaming at the cops to find my little girl's killer!!!!!

[Divameow77]

191. After seeing how the police and media respond to

heinous crimes against children, a smart person would lawyer up immediately, while screaming for the cops to do something.

[fishwax]

201. hard to argue with that

[Jacobin]

15. I didn't

For some reason, they didn't appear to be for me.

[warrior1]

17. Not me.

Not for one minute.

[TexasProgresive]

18. I never thought they were guilty of murder but of

child abuse. I can't stand putting little girls on a stage all tarted up. It's disgusting. I don't much care for beauty pageants anyway but at least the participants are old enough to make the decision to do it to themselves. And does putting your child on display, dressed in sexy attire make them targets of pedophiles? I don't know but it seems to me to be an unacceptable risk and maybe that's what brought JonBennet to the attention of this guy.

[sandnsea]

21. She did decide herself

She went to one of Patsy's beauty pageant reunions and asked if she could do pageants too. And since when is pretty clothing on a 6 year old "sexy attire"?? I think people with your attitude are actually perpetuating the notion that victims deserve what they get by how they're dressed and how they act. She should have been able to run naked through the fountains in downtown Boulder and not have had anybody thinking sexual thoughts about her, she was a child.

[TexasProgresive]

36. I don't believe that a person is at fault for

the way they dress. I still have a real problem with putting children on display in public like they are little adults. And no she didn't decide herself. She may have wanted to do the pageants but it was the parents' responsibilty to make the decision and grant permission. I'll bet any amount of money that an underage child cannot enter a pageant without parental permission.

I begged for a lot of things as a child but my parents wisely did not allow me to do a lot of them. That's what parents are supposed to do.

[sandnsea]

74. You don't like adult pageants either

So should a parent tell her teen daughter no too? What age is it okay for girls to dress up? If a 13 year old pageant winner is murdered, is it her fault because she was "put on display"? What about if she just wears makeup and doesn't participate in pageants, is she still "putting herself on display"? What if she's going to a dance? What if she's a gymnast, they wear heavy makeup too.

There's nothing wrong with little girls wanting to play dressup, they do it all the time. People who see this as anything more than that have a problem in their heads, not the kids.

[shimmergal]

185. Thanks, sandnsea!

Glad you made these points. Lots of little girls love to dress up in spangles or fluffy outfits or costumes or bright colors, and being "on stage" in some way or other. None of the pictures of JonBenet I've seen look "tarted up" -- just a little girl dressing up and, actually, looking kinda cute.

Every parent has the right to dress her child as she wants. (At least till she hits teenage years, and then there are likely to be mother-daughter battles about styles regardless:) ) But one shouldn't have to prove her Democratic or feminist credentials by dressing grubbily, or even insisting that little kids do so. That's a tyranny of style just like the ones we deplore.

[BlooInBloo]

46. Calling the attire in the pics in this thread anything but "tarted up"...

... is bizarre, imo.

Though I sympathize with parts of your view, I think it's willful ignorance to describe those outfits as mere "pretty clothing".

Just my opinion of course.

[BlooInBloo]

48. LOL! I just realized that *you're* the one who posted those pics!

:rofl:

I hereby sagely predict we'll find little agreement on that particular issue.

:rofl:

[sandnsea]

76. The black dress is just a pretty dress

I've seen little girls at church wear prettier dresses than that. The other is just a dance costume. Nothing more. To see more in it than that is just a throw-back to the "asking for it" mentality.

[BlooInBloo]

87. So be it - we disagree. I just don't think that appropriate attire & all..

... for a clubbing 23 year old girl is appropriate for a 6 year old girl. Has zero to do with anyone deserving anything.

[sandnsea]

89. Women go clubbing in hats and gloves??

Or flamboyant feather and boa dance costumes?

[BlooInBloo]

98. Possibly we've been to different clubs.

[sandnsea]

99. Most definitely

I've never seen a woman in a large straw Sunday hat at a club. I've never seen ANYBODY in a feather and boa dance costume at a club either, unless they were on stage. Admit it, these are little girls playing dress-up and nothing more.

[BlooInBloo]

105. Looks tarted up to me - sorry.

[LeahD]

119. A little girl playing "dress up" at home is so different than what was

going on with Jon Benet....custom made Las Vegas Show Girl costume, big hair, professional makeup, custom high heels and she was coached to "strut her stuff" on stage. Didn't one of her song and dance numbers involve sexual inuendo/double entendre?

Edit - spelling

[sandnsea]

124. No it's not

Lots of little girls would love the opportunity to put on flamboyant outfits and get their hair done and put on makeup and dance and perform. The really sad thing is that it's so expensive that low income kids can't participate just like they can't participate in so many other things. Of course, if they were participating in a low income theatre program, nobody would be making these wild accusations either. Even if a child was "strutting her stuff" to My Heart Will Go On or whatever little girls sing these days. It's the "beauty pageant" that people object to, not the theatrics of a 6 year old.

[LeahD]

262. My heart aches, and I cry for those low income girls that are so deprived.

Every little girl should have the opportunity to dress like a tart.

:sarcasm:

[Divameow77]

192. I've seen more men out

in feather boas then women I think. They are called Drag Queens.

[Sapphocrat]

64. Sorry.

What with the makeup, fake teeth, mini-adult outfits, and the way these kids are taught to wiggle and strut like streetwalkers, kiddie beauty pageants are nothing less than child porn.

[Critters2]

67. 6 year old don't "decide for themselves"

They get ideas from the world around them, and they are dependent on adults to screen what is and what is not appropriate. Being "tarted up" at 6 is not appropriate.

[sandnsea]

77. A 6 year old can't be "tarted up"

A 6 year old will always be 6. And as I've said elsewhere, boys and girls have been playing dressup with the trunks in their grandmother's attics ever since grandmother's had attics. Kids like to put on grown up clothes and play and perform and that's all a pageant really is.

[Critters2]

82. Okay, I gotta ask

How many pageants have you been in? And how young did you start?

[sandnsea]

90. None, I'm not a girly girl

I have never worn much make-up, don't think much of the whole pageant scene at all. But I did raise 4 kids and I was a girl scout leader and I do know kids develop their own tastes and desires that are completely unrelated to anything the parents have ever been involved in. My kids were too shy to ever perform on stage or anything like that, although my daughter did take some dance classes as a kid and she did dress up in a fifties costume as part of a performance. And they wore makeup because of the bright lights, as I recall. This is honestly much adieu about absolutely nothing except people who have a pre-conceived bias againt all pageantry and are dumping that bias on this 6 year old dead girl.

[sandnsea]

19. I suspected Burke

But never the parents. When the cops went gaga because John *gasp* had a computer and that must mean he was downloading kiddie porn - I pretty much doubted anything else they had to say. The molestation just never made any sense, parents who love their child and kill them in a fit of rage aren't going to use such a gruesome sexual offense to cover it up. It never made sense. And it never made sense that he could go wandering through the house without Patsy's knowledge, she just never struck me as the kind of woman to let something like that get by her. So I never really suspected the parents. I always thought the little brother might have been twisted or jealous - or one of the construction crew in a kidnapping plot gone awry. They had hired a Santa for their Christmas Party and I thought it might be him for a while too.

I'm just glad they look like they have it solved and that Patsy knew she had pretty much been exonerated when she died.

Good idea to remember the Bill of Rights.

[Midlodemocrat]

127. As did I.

They sexualized that baby girl, (I have one the same age) and their united front convinced me that they were protecting someone they both loved.

I'm not convinced that Burke is innocent. I guess time will tell. I thought the whole 'ransom note' was highly suspicious.

[GreenPartyVoter]

172. Ditto to all of that

[WiseButAngrySara]

20. Absolutely guilty! So did some major bigwig medical examiners in

Harris County (Houston, Texas). He fit the profile, and Jon Benet's beauty pageant photos just added to the belief. She looked like a 'ho.'

[sandnsea]

24. Oh yeah, a 6 year old 'ho'

Do tell, what exactly is there that says 'ho' about this outfit?



And is every child who dances in costume "asking for it" too??

[Annces]

30. I wouldn't use the word "ho"

but she is dressed as an adult woman would dress that wanted to be sexy. Short skirt. Sleeveless arms. And look at all that makeup.

There are lots of costumes that are not "adult" in nature.

[sandnsea]

71. sleeveless arms???

:rofl:

[Nicole]

109. What are you laughing at?

Don't you know sleeveless arms are just asking for it?! :sarcasm:

[dddem]

130. the Constitution gives us the right

to bare arms!

[WiseButAngrySara]

53. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'ho' as I tend to view it as a joke,

and the murder of a young child is not a laughing matter, especially if the poor suffering parents were falsely accused. However, a 6 year old (and photos of her that were taken at an ealier age) dressed up with eye make-up that is too much for adults, with the suggestive shoes...it's obviously not the child's choice! It was her parents, and I view it as sick. I certainly hope that you are joking when you suggest that I think in any way tha she was "asking for it!"

[sandnsea]

72. You think it's sick

Why else would you think it's sick unless you connected sexual perversion to it. That is just a pretty dress and a flamboyant costume, unless you've got a problem with sleeveless arms too, *gasp*

[Critters2]

68. Did YOU wear that much makeup at 6? nt

[sandnsea]

70. I don't wear that much now

But then again, I'm not on stage either. It's quite common for kids on stage to wear makeup.

[Critters2]

73. Please. That's too much makeup for an adult woman on stage. nt

[sandnsea]

78. Says you

She won pageants so I guess they knew what they were doing. And who cares anyway, it's just makeup.

[Critters2]

81. Can you say "circular reasoning"?

Your proof that it's okay for a 6 year old to be in makeup and pageants is that that 6 year old won pageants.

That doesn't give you a headache?

[sandnsea]

93. no no, "too much makeup"

That's what I was referring to, how would I know how much "too much makeup" is for a pageant, I don't. But since she won, apparently it's the appropriate amount. And again, who friggin' cares, it's just makeup for chrissake.

[laundry_queen]

112. You've never been to a children's

dance recital have you? My 2 dd's were in ballet and jazz, and during their concert ALL the girls (ages 3-18) had make up on. Not my favorite thing, but the teacher required it. It's a 'custom' for dance. I sure didn't think my girls looked 'tarted up'. I've seen many pictures of friends' daughters' concerts as well, and dressing up and make up for DANCE is also a common thing. I'm sure they'd love it if one of their dd's were murdered and the only picture the media decided to show was of that dance recital when they had caked on make up.
I'm seriously amazed at the judgemental attitudes at DU today.

[sandrakae]

95. She doesn't look like a 6 year old.Her mother turned her into a freak show

A six year old should not be dress like this. Jonbenet is certainly not to blame for what happened to her. My god this child is a victim. Not sure what you meant by that last comment.

[sandnsea]

102. Oh my god, it's a dance costume

And that's the most flamboyant costume she wore. If she was playing some part in a movie or was a child theatre actor, nobody would say a word. It's only because it's pageants that anybody thinks she was exploited.

[sandrakae]

152. Yeah your right, for a 25 year old Las Vegas Show Girl.

[sandnsea]

164. Or a little girl playing dress up n/t

[Jamastiene]

22. I could never really decide, but

I had a hunch they may be innocent, possibly. Part of me thought they were guilty as hell though.

[marions ghost]

23. never thought the parents did it

even though yes, they did fetishize their daughter and tart her up something awful.

I thought the media frenzy was disgusting. Refused to watch.

Not at all surprised by this latest news. I knew the case was badly bungled and I think most good investigators were horrified by it. I suspected one of the peripherals who knew the family, a sex offender.

[librechik]

204. exactly--me too

and a later investigator found evidence of forced entry--

It was a crazy and fishy story all the way thru, but it always seemed like a sex crime, not a child abuse incident to me.

[AlCzervik]

25. honestly i hadn't a clue either way but i will admit that for awhile i

thought maybe the son did it but of course i also suspected OJ Simpsons adult son of Nicole Simpsons murder so you can't go by me.

[madmunchie]

26. I never really thought that the Ramsey's were definetly involved.

I thought that it was a possibility, but it never was something that I felt for certain. Whereas, Chandra Levy, I never thought that the Gary Condit was guilty, O.J., I know is guilty, and Scott Peterson is guilty. With Jon Bonet there was never a clearcut indication of any family member's guilt.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

28. I did, but I don't feel guilty at all

Its my perogative to judge anyone I please in my own home.

Now if I had taken action that affected the Ramseys based on my judgement, that would be different.

But I won't feel guilty for forming a private opinion.

[politicat]

29. No, but I had the advantage of seeing them in real life before.

By no means a close acquaintance, but I'd seen them socially. Boulder isn't big and I worked for the company.

You never know what goes on behind closed doors, but there's usually some warning signs if the family has problems. You may only see those signs in retrospect, but those signs weren't there.

And I don't think Patsy even wrote the note. I saw her handwriting before.

[MrSlayer]

31. Is it over then? This suspect has confessed?

I haven't been following it other than the initial report. I was never convinced that they did it nor did I ever totally rule them out.

[peacetalksforall]

32. I was neutral, but once I observed NBC going after the Ramsey's, I was

more or less rooting for the Ramsey's because of my disgust for NBC and CNN.

I deeply resent that tv courts brought to us by corporations should be judge, juries, and lynchers. They throw away a tenet that is very important to me - that a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court, not before corporate cameras with babblers who are paid by the corporations.

NBC and CNN. I don't monitor FOX anymore. I love it that Dan Abrams, Nancy Grace, and all the others may be WRONG!

They are weird and sick fools who have the nerve to go in front of cameras and push their or CNN and NBC agendas and declarations of guilt and DESTROY our court system.

[marions ghost]

129. ditto!

:applause: you said it higherclass

[kskiska]

143. They were wrong about Gary Condit, too

But they, including Connie Chung, never apologized. Mrs. Levy would appear and flat out accuse Gary Condit of murder. She never apologized, either.

[peacetalksforall]

156. And most citizens don't have a clue about what is going on with

corporations getting into the crime and court business.

They set themselves up and some people don't even realize that they are affecting perceptions of justice within this country. GE MURDOCH and TIME WARNER decide who is guilty and they put employee-lawyers on the case to convict AND then they invite lawyer-guest-tv-court-jesters to appear with the jester hosts. They are making crime into a joke. The guest winner is the jester who sides with the host jester.

The country is falling faster than the glaciers are melting and dumb people are making it happen.

Crime requires professional, serious lawyers and judges.
Crime requires carefully selected juries.
Crime doesn't require corporate court rooms.

[WinkyDink]

157. The Chandra Levy murder has never been solved.

[LostinVA]

208. Yup, and he did commit obstruction of justice

[Sugarcoated]

33. No, not me

Not only is a person innocent till proven guilty, but all the supposed "evidence" and information leaked is suspect. I do NOT trust the media to handle stories like this professionally, they are like mindless sharks on a kill and ruin lives.

And, there is something to be said for how believable or guilty seeming a person comes off. You can tell when someone's lying most times, and they were always rock solid. My gut feeling said no.

[RB TexLa]

34. .

.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

35. I still do. Has this guy had his trial yet?

More shall be revealed.

[Sugarcoated]

39. Innocent till proven guilty

works both ways

[A-Schwarzenegger]

63. That's in a court of law, not an internet forum.

The question was asked, and I answered, for myself.

[Sugarcoated]

66. Doesn't make it right

[A-Schwarzenegger]

79. Yes, opinions are baaaaaaaad.

We can't all be saints.

[Traveling_Home]

40. Me Too nt

[LostinVA]

186. More has been revealed -- in his not being the killer

We shall see how it all plays out.

[undeterred]

37. I never did, and I've seen this happen in other cases

The police fuck up and don't do their job correctly, and the family suffers even more because of it. And a killer is free to kill again and again because no one is looking for him. How many other victims are there because the police did a lousy job of securing a crime scene and conducting an investigation?

[Obamarama]

38. The only thing I thought the Ramseys were guilty of was....

the fact that they seemed hell-bent on parading their child through pageant after pageant. It seemed to me that the poor kid had a very different and very strange upbringing. I hope she was at least happy for most of her short life.

[texas1928]

41. I always questioned if the media was to quick to condemn them.

I will admit that the evidence they kept harping on TV, made it sound like they were guilty. But as a criminal justice major I knew that the investigators were not giving them everyting.

[pansypoo53219]

43. just guilty of pimping

their daughter.

[laundry_queen]

44. I never did.

I watched a program on some educational channel about 5 or 6 years ago that went over all the evidence in the case. The thing that stuck in my mind when people say "how could an intruder come into their house undetected" was that JonBenet's bedroom was not only on the opposite side of the house as the parents' room, but on a lower floor and right next to a door that led straight to the basement. Now I live in a small 3 bedroom house with the kids rooms right next to mine and often I don't hear them get up in the morning. And that's with all the doors open. It would be easy, IMO, to pick up a sleeping child and carry her down to the basement silently.
Anyhow, that reason and watching the parents in interviews and the fact they BOTH passed *5* lie detector tests, made me think it wasn't them. Also one of the detectives on the case was so fed up with how the investigation was going he quit his job to help the Ramsey's clear their name. So all these little things stuck in my head.
I'm glad that much of the ordeal is over for the parents (at least the mom knew before she died) and it's always good when they catch a pedophile.

[Sugarcoated]

47. Wow they both passed 5 tests??

I hadn't heard about the lie detecter tests before.

[laundry_queen]

122. Yes, it was in the program I saw 5 or 6 yrs ago

I dont' know if the number was 5 tests passed back then though, but there were a few. Today on CNN they said it was a total of 5 passed tests - tests that were 'marked' digitally(or were computerized or something) so there was no bias of the tester.

[LostinVA]

210. I''m pretty sure none were independent polygraphs

And, that makes a huge difference.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything by saying that, I'm just saying that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Greyskye]

45. I never gave the issue a thought

I mean, get serious. I live a 3rd of a continent away; what good would it have done? Yeah, it's a tragedy that a child was murdered. I didn't pay any attention to OJ or Michael Jackson either. Why waste the energy? :shrug:

I'm glad that the family finally might get some closure, and that the killer might be brought to justice. Other than that, I could care less. I read one synopsis of what is going on. That gave me enough info to know to put the whole story into my personal 'ignore' list. What the idiots in DC are up to has a lot more effect on my life than this story does.

[LWolf]

49. I did.

I thought they were at least complicit in something; that they knew the person or knew how the person had entered or exited, if they didn't do it themselves.

[Sugarcoated]

55. Innocent till proven guilty

at least that's how I'd wish to be treated and viewed if I were ever in (God forbid) that type of situation.

[LWolf]

138. Yes.

I think that people don't think logically, or fairly, when their emotions are involved. The neglect, abuse, or murder of a child engages people at that emotional level, which makes it easy to forget a concept like "innocent until proven guilty."

That's why Bush has supporters who vote for him against their own best interests; they have an emotional trigger that he is hitting, whether it be connected to religion, nationalism, or something else.

The same works for Democrats. Here at DU, how many people are willing, and even eager, to believe Bush guilty of things that are not yet proven?

[trumad]

51. .

[CatWoman]

58. I've been waiting for you!!!

and I STILL haven't changed my mind about his case!!

:hi:

:loveya:

[Marie26]

52. I didn't

Though I never followed the case all that much. But after seeing an interview w/Patsy Ramsey, I just felt like she was telling the truth. They suffered so much, only made worse by the endless media spotlight & speculation.

[Jeanette in FL]

54. One of the best things in this life is giving up Judgment

I never knew what to make of this case, Media and pundants were trying to point us to a direction, I didn't want to take the bait

Once you give up judgment, it frees you up immensely.

[Sugarcoated]

60. Boy, ain't it the truth

Gossipy shit makes me ill. And I also agree about the 'giving up on judgment'. I was accused of something long ago that I didn't do, though not even close to the severity of the Ramsey's. I was in those shoes and believe me, you look at things very differently after that.

[Akim]

69. Give Up Judgment? This Is Good?

We must all arrive at our own conclusions based on our individual insight. Being proven wrong is not worse than adjuring the responsibility of thinking for ourselves. Of course, no one has been proved wrong yet. Many unanswered questions need to be addressed before we can exonerate the Ramseys of complicity in their daughter's death.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

166. Ironically, you used judgement to come to that conclusion

(thats its one of the best things in life)

:)

[EFerrari]

56. I didn't. Didn't like them but never thought they killed the baby. n/t

[enfield collector]

57. yup, given the hatchet job the msm did on them.

[Akim]

259. In Referring to Mr.Ramsey, It's Best Not to Use Phrases like "Hatchet Job"

[sofa king]

59. Yep, I bought it.

I once met a guy named Olshanker who co-wrote a book with an FBI guy about serial killers, so I read their book. In that book, it's pointed out repeatedly that sometimes the best way to pin a "known" murderer is to place public pressure on them to force them to confess, or at least reveal details that they otherwise wouldn't.

I assumed, wrongly I guess, that all this public pressure was being placed on the parents at the behest of the FBI, and that the FBI wouldn't have done that if they weren't sitting on evidence which fingered the murderer but which couldn't be used in court.

Now I gotta go back and rethink O.J. all over again. Well, maybe not.

[Akim]

61. I Still Think the Ramseys Are Guilty of At Least a Cover-Up

The fact remains that Patsy Ramsey wrote a fake ransom note, a diatribe of several pages which attempted to shift the blame to "foreign investors" for the murder. The non-sensical note, written in Patsy's distinctive grandiose style with archaisms that she routinely used in her correspondence, also demanded a ransom amount that was exactly the sum of her husband's Christmas bonus that year. Also John was excluded as the writer of the note, Patsy could not be excluded.

If a third party committed or assisted in the murder, then Patsy Ramsey must have had some reason for faking the ransom note, whether it is that she feared her husband was responsible or the Ramseys had some connection to the killer that they were trying to conceal for whatever reason.

[sofa king]

128. You know, that note could explain a lot.

If Mrs. Ramsey really did write that note, and investigators knew it, that would explain why they allowed and fed the media circus for so long: to force her to reveal who she thought the culprit was and why.

The family's lawyer would have pointed out that interfering in a murder investigation often carries fearsome penalties as well, and that lawyer would have counseled what is now the standard defense to media inquisition, most famously used by the White House every single day: never, ever admit the truth about anything, ever.

And of course it supports the idea that even some of the Ramseys thought that one of the Ramseys did it.

[Akim]

144. Does a "Kidnapper" Proofread His Ransom Note? 3 Pages, Too.

And the ransom note was written in the Ramsey's own home, on a notepad that Patsy used for her scribblings. And it even had erasures; we all know that kidnappers are very scrupulous about grammar and syntex. And it was 3 pages long; and we all know that kidnappers are hopelessly loquacious. And that they write and sound like a superannuated Southern belle's idea of how a gentleman kidnapper would write a ransom note.

[LostinVA]

187. Yup, the ransom note is what me

And pretty much every other profiler and criminal coroner who studied the case.

[KayLaw]

189. What?!

Where did you get this information, please? Patsy Ramsey wrote that note? I think you're making that up. If not, please post a link.

[LostinVA]

211. Tests done said she could not be excluded as the writer

Independent experts also reached that conclusion. That was a while ago. I'll try to find links.

[KayLaw]

233. That does not mean she did write it.

Unless she confessed there's no need to look for links. Akim wrote that "the fact remains that Patsy Ramsey wrote a fake ransom note . . ." That she could not be excluded as the writer is not at all proof she wrote it.

[LostinVA]

236. It means that she could have written it

What Ressler said on TV was that legally one couldn't say Patsy Ramsey wrote it unless she suddenly said she did or there was a videotape of her writing it or something. However, what it meant was that Ramsey would be in the pool of people who DID do it. It was his opinion that, due to handwriting similarities and certain information within the note -- along with the pad it was on, the evidence of a "practice note" -- that Patsy Ramsey could be proven in a cort of law as having written it. Legal terminology is a careful thing!

[KayLaw]

242. I could have written it

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if Mrs. Ramsey could have been proved guilty of writing that letter, someone should have tried it. We're speaking of the dead here. This is a woman whose child was killed and a person on this board said it was a fact that she wrote the letter, which it isn't. It's not fair to speak that way of a woman who is not here to defend herself.

[laylah]

62. I, wrongly or rightly,

always thought Burke was involved. That said, having lived very close to the scene, I am elated there has been a possible perp identified.

Yes, Patsy, rest dear fellow woman, rest in peace.

[Zomby Woof]

75. I think they were involved

This arrest today isn't the final word. If the parents are guilty of anything, it's peddling their daughter like a whore. Beauty pageants, make-up, the whole works, for a SIX YEAR OLD. They were sexualizing a child long before her time. It's creepy and pedophiliac. No matter who killed tha poor child, the parents share some kind of responsibility for the sick spectacle they made of their daughter's life before she was killed.

The only innocent party was JonBenet. Period.

[Akim]

80. "The only innocent party was JonBenet. Period." Touché. n/t

[DemExpat]

217. That is my take on this tragedy as well.

DemEx

[Libby2]

83. I sure thought they knew more than they were telling.

[raysr]

84. According to my wife,

who is a constant veiwer of court tv, Nancy Grace and Ann Coulter were relentless in their hammering of Patsy Ramsey. You think they'll apologise for their mistakes? Scott Peterson will probably be exonerated unless they kill him first. That fucking Nancy Grace needs to spend some time in general pop. at Pelican Bay.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

85. "Scott Peterson will probably be exonerated unless they kill him first."

And OJ, too!

[WinkyDink]

159. Scott "I'm on my way to Mexico with dyed blonde hair and a beard"

Peterson EXONERATED??

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beausoir]

88. *raises hand* Nothing has happened to change my mind.....yet.

I don't even know what this guy is being charged with.

[Buzz Clik]

91. Who?

:shrug:

[Cleita]

92. I'm afraid I did although I felt it was an accident that they

tried to cover up.

Yep, I feels like shit too.

[sproutster]

96. *raises hand*

[SeattleGirl]

97. I did.

The basis for my thinking that way (among other things), was Diane Downs and Susan Smith. Parents ARE capable of doing horrendous things to their children, no doubt about it. Now saying that, I'm NOT saying that I didn't think someone else could have done it. But yes, I did suspect the parents, or at least the mother, very strongly.

[Corgigal]

100. Garrotte?

Has never been used on a child by a parent. That is a torture death.

Too bad the Boulder PD never understood that. I hope, if this is the guy, he hasn't harmed anyone else.

[LeahD]

118. Yes, the garrote just seemed too bizarre. n/t

[WinkyDink]

160. NEVER? Wow, you know a lot of history! And you must read every

crime sheet ever in every precinct in the entire world!

[kentuck]

101. I'm sorry to say...

that I did.

I know it means nothing now but I am sorry I did...

[Lex]

103. Interesting story here . . .

(I've snipped the article so it's down to the 4 paragraphs per our rules.)


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4468925

The suspect, John Mark Karr, lived for a time in the North Bay with his wife and three kids. 41-year-old John Karr and his then-wife, Laura, once lived in Petaluma. She told us they were married back in 1989 and lived in Alabama until the year 2000 when they moved to Petaluma.

In April of 2001, Karr was arrested at a school in Napa on five counts of possessing child pornography. He did serve some time in jail, but was released on his own recognizance in October and later failed to show up in court. He is wanted in Sonoma County and a warrant is still out for his arrest for failure to appear on those charges.

His ex-wife also says her husband did a lot of research on the JonBenet Ramsey case and also on Petaluma's own Polly Klaas.

Laura Karr also tells us she's devastated and embarrassed by these murder charges, but she does not believe that her husband did it. She says that during Christmas season of 1996 when JonBenet Ramsey was strangled and beaten to death in Colorado, they were living in Alabama at the time and she was with him the entire Christmas season.

[Beausoir]

104. Sounds like an alibi to me. Again....I will wait for the facts to emerge.

[Lex]

111. His whereabouts and place of residency and travel

during the Christmas holidays of the year Jon Benet Ramsey was killed will probably be fairly easily established.

That should be interesting. If they lived in Alabama at the time, slipping out unnoticed to Colorado on Christmas Eve would be difficult.

[Corgigal]

106. Alibi is nice

I'm sure Boulder has proof that he was in Colorado during that time period. He was arrested after all, overseas. If you can't prove he was in Boulder then no arrest. The DA's office has to have that.

If I was married to that guy and even after a divorce, but have a few kids with him then I would try to protect my kids also. Who in their right mind wants to be associated with him right now? Let her tell it to the jury, see what they think.

[Lex]

113. You're right. I'm sure the police have evidence he was in Colorado

at the time. They wouldn't leave that piece of evidence unverified.

I'm hoping they have a DNA match--that will seal it.

[paulk]

232. I would also assume that the Boulder County DA would

have evidence he was in Colorado before going through with this...

OTOH - I lived in Boulder for eleven years and from a personal perspective (which included the Boulder Police Department's handling of a case involving a crime done to me) I can't say I have any faith in them.

Hopefully the DNA evidence will clear this up.

[Horse with no Name]

108. I did

Because that was how the media played it.
I was apolitical at the time--and if MSM said it over and over, it must be true...
I'm older and wiser now, and feel betrayed that the MSM would devastate and devour a family who lost their child in order to obtain ratings.
I'm with you--may Patsy and JonBenet rest in peace.
God knows they both deserve it.

[Nicole]

114. I thought they were guilty

trying to cover it up when the brother killed her. I never thought either parent murdered her.

[frogmarch]

117. Still do

though I've never thought John or Patsy killed JonBenet... but that they staged a cover-up for Burke, Jonbenet's older brother, who was two weeks shy of his tenth birthday when she died, and therefore two weeks shy of being old enough to be charged with any kind of crime in CO. (Dr. Michael Baden said there was nothing about what was done to JonBenet that someone Burke's age at the time couldn't have done, and Dr. Cyril Wecht said the essentially the same thing. Baden went so far as to say Burke should be looked at.)

Sick, disgusting person though I think the suspect in Thailand is for having child porn on his computer, he is being railroaded in this case, imo. When he's cleared, I hope he sues, just like another so-called "suspect" did when the Rs' attorney tried to railroad him.

[Roxy66]

125. Not me.....thought the police were idiots

[hopeisaplace]

126. Never. Not once. I was upset for them for years.

This kind of "tried in the press" that happened to them is
completely unjust. Could happen to anyone of us. Empathy from me.

[pinniped]

131. Not me, I know how batshit crazy the media is.

[QuettaKid]

132. this story is far from over. the guy's ex wife says they were in Alabama

at the time of the murder. This guy didn't kill JonBenet. His confession is probably in exchange for more mreciful treatment for some unrelated charge. It absolutely figures that they couldn't trot out a "confessed killer" until after Patsy Ramsey died. They could never put this guy on trial with Patsy being called to the witness stand and submitting to cross examination. She dies and bingo, two months later a random person facing some other serious charges is persuaded to take the rap and restore the Ramsey name. John Ramsey is rich and powerful and American Justice can be made to jump through hoops to protect men like him.

[Akim]

146. You Are Absolutely Right: Karr Could Not Have Done It

How right you are! I wonder how they are going to explain the fact that the "confessed killer" has never set foot in the state of Colorado in his life? The guy is obviously a nutcase who may actually believe that he had something to do with JoanBenet's murder. He's probably spent the last ten years fantasizing about it. But his only conviction on record is for possession of child pornography. Which means that he is obviously a creep, but not a killer. Perhaps confessing to this high profile crime will guarantee him special protection in prison which he would not otherwise have received as a common perv.

[L A Woman]

161. i know, i know - and no plane hit the pentagon...

give me a break. have we really gone that far over the edge in the democratic party? there's always some stupid, Martian conspiracy behind everything.

he is not "some random person." he is someone who knew the Ramseys AND Jon-Benet AND he is a pedophile AND he has admitted he did it. but you are choosing to ignore all of that in favor of the rumor that his ex-wife says he was with her (and several sources are disputing that). it simply means you will not let go of your original, incorrect accusations against this child's mother.

jesus christ, people. have some character. apologize. YOU. WERE. WRONG.

[Akim]

169. I never said the mother did it. She just covered it up.

I never said the mother did it. She just covered it up. See comments on fake ransom note.

[cali]

133. Who among us never gave a shit

and still doesn't? Raises hand.

[Libby2]

136. Why the hell didn't you ignore this post then?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

134. I did. eom

[QuettaKid]

135. the dudes resume.

http://www.job4teacher.com/Candidates/JohnKarr.html

[raccoon]

137. I did. And I still do. But just because this man confessed,

doesn't mean he did it.

[sendero]

141. Certainly..

.... there are a boatload of weasel-words in his "confession" - "I was there", "it was an accident" - there's still a lot more to this story than meets the eye.

[ProfessorGAC]

140. Somewhere In Between

I did think they KNEW who did it and were protecting someone. Of course, that creeped me out, because i couldn't see how anyone would protect the murderer of their child.

I was wrong.
The Professor

[Roon]

142. I only thought they were guitly

because I read a book written by one of the detectives.

[Akim]

145. How Lucky Can a Man Get? Ask John Ramsey.

How lucky can a man get? Ask John Ramsey.

First, his wife covers up for him.

Then his wife (and only eyewitness) dies.

Then some nutcase who's never been in Colorado takes credit for the crime.

And the nutcase (predictably) happens to be a pedophile.

Next John Ramsey will be named "Father of the Year."

Are people really this gullible?

Yes.

[itzamirakul]

147. I never did.......just like I never thought that Kobe "raped" that girl...

[Akim]

148. And O.J.?

[L A Woman]

149. I didn't know - but there didn't seem to be any motive for them to do it

And Patsy certainly doted on that child - she wasn't a neglected child. And there seemed to be no reason to believe that the father had anything to do with it. The idea that the 9-year-old boy did it was absurd to me.

So no, I didn't believe they did it, but I admit I never thought the crime would be solved.

[Akim]

153. There Were More Than Enough Motives (for both John and Patsy)

How about this scenario?

The father is a pedophile and obsessed with his own daughter.

The mother is wildly jealous of her 6-year old trophee daughter.

The father molests and kills daughter.

The mother blames daughter for "seducing" her father and decides to cover-up for her husband.

It wouldn't be the first time that mothers covered-up their husbands' incest.

Remember, incest is a family affair.

[Sugarcoated]

163. Yeah, and aliens could've come down and done it

What proof is there that anything like that could've happened?? Was there any family history of that? If not you pulled it out of your keester.

[Akim]

168. More Likely Aliens Than Someone Who Never Set Foot in Colorado n/t

[L A Woman]

165. that's a scenario that anyone could pull out of their ass

there was no evidence that John Ramsey had molested his daughter or anyone else. the guy is awfully old to be a pedophile with ZERO history of it.

it's a very hollywood theory. with no basis.

[Akim]

167. Karr Never Set Foot In Colorado. Maybe He Has Special Powers

beyond those of ordinary men.

[L A Woman]

250. How on earth would you know that? n/t

[Sugarcoated]

251. He doesn't

He's squeezin' another one out of the ole Farfegnugen. :eyes:

[Akim]

254. Try Listening to News. You Can Do That & Post Here At the Same Time. n/t

[WinkyDink]

151. This new suspect is whacked. I don't buy his story AT ALL.

Sorry.

I'd like to see him re-construct just ONE paragraph from that lengthy "ransom" note (my, but he must have thought he had all the time in the world that evening! Did he KNOW there would be a tablet there? Did he write the note before JB died? Her mouth wasn't taped shut until post-mortem.) How about the one about John's "Southern charm"? Maybe the "attache case" or the "small foreign faction"?

I think this guy is a sick (physically and mentally) whacko who has "insider" info because John Ramsay has paid him to know it and take the fall. Let's see now if the suspect can remember what he needs to. He wouldn't be the first disturbed "confessor".

To me, the book "A Mother Gone Bad" is the best analysis of this case, especially of Patsy's known written missives (letters, memos, cards, e.g.). (The title is from Patsy's softball team, "Mothers Gone Bad".)

And parents killing their children is as ancient as it gets.

[arwalden]

162. Well...

I thought the brother did it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

170. I did wonder about the brother for a while. That might have accounted for

Patsy supposedly writing a ransom note.

[Akim]

174. The Brother Was 9 At the Time. Not Enough Physical Strength to Do It.

The brother was 9 years old. It is impossible that he could have committed a crime of such ferocity requiring great physical strength. Patsy DID fake the ransom note to protect someone. Her husband.

[GreenPartyVoter]

177. Good pt. I thought the DNa evidence didn't point to family which

was why I stopped looking at them. Considered a dear family friend or extended family instead.

[marions ghost]

235. Right

surely they did DNA testing, didn't they? I don't remember. Seems that would be the easiest way to exonerate the father and brother and others close by.

[philosophie_en_rose]

171. I didn't know that they were guilty, but I suspected them.

And I feel terrible about it now. I don't know them, of course. However, I can imagine how difficult it have been for them to lose a daughter and then live with accusations and suspicions.

[Akim]

175. Everyone Suspected Them. And For Good Reasons. n/t

[sandnsea]

196. No, "everyone" did not suspect them

As with too many news stories, there's a smattering of "conventional wisdom" that upon a cursory examination of the facts prove to not even be true. For example, there were no footprints in the snow because there wasn't any snow. Yet I've heard numerous people use the snow as their primary reason for convicting the Ramseys. A cupboard is open that has pull-ups in it, therefore Patsy got mad and smacked her daughter who fell against the tub and they covered that up with the most putrid kind of sex crime. Really make sense to you? Family members are always considered, but there was never any real evidence for the Ramseys to be true suspects and "everyone" certainly didn't believe they should be.

[Akim]

207. Alright, 90% Thought Them Guilty (And the Other 10% Lied) n/t

[L A Woman]

249. Thank You - this whole thread is pathetic

I'd love to go back and see if these are the same people who don't think a plane flew into the Pentagon. (by far the longest and most embarrassing thread I have ever seen). Geniuses, every one.

There is ZERO evidence that her parents were involved. DNA cleared them both in 2003 AND found traces of an unknown male. They had no motive at all. There was NO history of abuse, sexual or otherwise. It wasn't enough for the mental midgets and tabloid readers, though. The grieving parents were still guilty for whatever reason they could pull out of their asses.

Now we have a known pedophile, investigated for months, who knew Jon-Benet, who knows facts that were not made public, and who has confessed.

And mental midgets and tabloid readers are still pulling ridiculous theories out of their asses.

I guess it's easier than saying, "I was wrong."

[Akim]

253. Remember those words ("I was Wrong"). You may have to repeat them soon.

Remember those words ("I was Wrong"). You may have to repeat them soon.

[Arugula Latte]

176. I remember hearing information that did seem to point to an inside job

so, yes, I did think they were the most likely suspects. Plus the pageant thing was freakish and made them suspects for child abuse, IMO. (Flame away ... that's what I thought -- the types of pagents JonBenet participated in were sickening to me.)

One piece of evidence had to do w/ the way the window to their basement had been tampered with -- looked like someone didn't come in from the outside ... :shrug:

[Nimrod2005]

178. I did, my SO did all long....Guilty!

[ScreamingMeemie]

179. Me.

:(

[Greyhound]

180. Does this now make anyone see the wisdom of "innocent until

proven guilty"? As we have seen time and again, even when the "justice" system convicts a person, there is a good chance that they are innocent. When even that level of proof is not met, it is wrong to draw conclusions, especially when the media jackals "make their case".

The further we move away from the principles of liberty and freedom, the worse thing get for us all. Didn't somebody say something about it being better that a hundred guilty men go free than to convict one that is innocent?

[LostinVA]

182. No one knows who's guilty

Facts are appearing that the guy they arrested yesterday has a very good alibi -- he was living with his (now ex) wife in Alabama at the time, and had never lived in Colorado like he said. Other things, too.

I don't know if the Ramsey's or someone else did it, although I still agree with Ressler and Lee that it was someone known to JB, but it's quickly appearing that it probably isn't this guy.

[RamboLiberal]

193. I suspected them - especially after reading the book

by the detective - Thomas I believe was his last name? Though after also seeing others in homicide work defend them I was trying to keep an open mind. I will be interested to see where this case goes though I do decry the media obsession now and in the 90's with the death of this one child while thousands and millions of other children die every day from war and crime.

[mentalsolstice]

197. I Thought It Was an Inside Job

I always thought Burke did it, but it was an accident. He was playing a game that JonBenet went along with, and something went badly wrong. The parents tried to make it look like an outside murder job, so that their son wouldn't have to grow up with a lot of speculation and whispering around him. I don't think there were any true evildoers here...just that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm still skeptical that John Mark Karr did it, something just doesn't seem right to me.

[marions ghost]

231. why bother?

if that were true, why not just paint it as an accident. Accidents happen. Murders are hard to fabricate.

[mentalsolstice]

238. They Didn't Want Son Implicated

They didn't want Burke subjected to police interrogation...I had read somewhere that Patsy was reading a book that a involved a scene with a garrote. Let's Burke picked up the book, and decided he wanted to replicate tying up his sister (without the intent of killing her), and JonBenet went along with the "let's pretend to be tied up" game...but he tied it too tight and she strangled. There would be enough to questionable evidence there, so that the police may not buy the story that it was truly an accident. It happens all the time where kids are playing and one gets hurt, or worse. However, the Ramsey's didn't want to risk having Burke going through police procedures, being locked away, nor carrying the stigma around for the rest of his life. Maybe they figured it would go away more quickly and quietly for Burke if it looked like an outsider, and he would be able to go about living a normal life. With all the money they poured into JonBenet's pageants, surely they also wanted their little boy to grow up and "be somebody."

[Akim]

241. The Son was 9. Didn't Have Physical Strength to Kill Sister Like This...

JoanBenet was savaged. She was strangled until the cord was imbedded in her skin and was no longer visible on her neck. Her skull was cracked 8 inches. She was sexually violated with the broken end of a paint brush. No 9 year old boy did this. No 9-year old boy would have the physical strength to inflict such damage or the level of depravity.

[marions ghost]

244. far-fetched

a lot easier to go with a kid's accident in the case of a 9 year old. If the parents were truly devastated by JonBenet's death and thought it was an accident, they would not need such elaborate ruses for a son. It would be treated as accidental, far less of a problem for them than murder.

[earth mom]

199. Yeah, I suspected them...

and am still not sure about them. There are a few reasons.

One, the Ramseys were way too stoic in their grief, hardly emotional at all really. When my mom was killed by a drunk driver I couldn't speak of her for years and years with out starting to cry and still often do and it's been 24 years! So how could the Ramseys be so calm, cool and collected?! That's always bothered me about them.

Also, the ransom note is odd because it sounds like an adolescent wrote it. It seems like it had to have been from someone who knew the family because the 118K was the exact amount of Johns bonus. Not a coincidence. I can't help but wonder if the letter was to protect someone in the family. John, Patsy or Burke.

The beauty pageant thing is just too weird. To parade around on a stage like that is just so bizarre and attention seeking and dangerous. Protecting our kids should be number one-and that goes for posting kids pictures on the internet-I would never post my kids picture online! There are way too many weirdos around! Why did that not matter to the Ramseys?

The suspect also has a questionable story. Starting with him being obsessed with the case to speaking to an expert on the case for 2 months to his wife saying she spent Christmas with him in Alabama that year. It just doesn't add up.

Lastly, I would like to believe in the Ramseys-John, Patsy or Burke-innocence because as a parent I just can't imagine going down that road. However, the evidence and circumstances of the case are just so odd, that even though I want to, I still can't shake my suspicions of them.

[Divameow77]

202. My question about the alibi

is that wouldn't the police have talked to the ex-wife before all this? I mean if they were investigating this man according to e-mails he was sending to someone wouldn't they have contacted his ex-wife while they were looking for him? Wouldn't she have told them of his alibi then?

[Akim]

209. Obviously They Didn't Contact Her

Obviously, law enforcement didn't contact the ex-wife or Karr's clan in Alabama, who would have confirmed that Karr spent Christmas 1996 with them.

[Divameow77]

247. I find it very hard to believe

that the ex-wife wasn't even spoken to regarding the whereabouts of her ex-husband. Maybe they didn't believe her, or maybe they have evidence of him being in Colorado? I would like to think law enforcement would be extremely careful considering the botched job Boulder cops seemed to have done.
I'm not saying I believe any of it one way or the other, it's too soon. I never really thought it was the parents though, just didn't feel like it when I saw interviews with them.

[LostinVA]

218. It doesn't appear they did

They found out about like we did -- via the media.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

203. I still do.

This guy's confession seems even less believable than Jon Ramsey's denial.

[Akim]

212. "This guy's confession even less believable than John Ramsey's denial."

"This guy's confession seems even less believable than John Ramsey's denial."

Brilliant observation. The best on this thread.

[lies and propaganda]

205. i still do.

they raped her for years, i have read (on the net) ME reports where it stated her vagina was like that of an older, sexually active woman. i think they prostituted her and accidently killed her during rouch sex play and faked this whole ridiculous facade.

imho. She was a beautiful young girl made to be a woman, RIP.

[Divameow77]

248. Wow

that's quite an allegation. I thought there was no evidence at all of any long term sexual abuse.

[Akim]

256. Makes Perfect Sense. You Definitely Have Something There n/t

[LanternWaste]

206. It was filed in...

The original story went into my "Why in the world is this such a big deal?" file, along with the O.J. Simpson case, the Pretty-Blonde-Girl-Missing-in-Aruba case and a few others.

Without meaning to sound condescending to anyone, I simply cannot believe that this turned into the huge media circus it did (and will again for the next two or three months, I'm afraid). I am sincerely & honestly baffled as to why individuals hang on these stories and internalize them to a point that seems... well, almost absurd.

Not that you or anyone else on this thread may have invested much time and thought into the story. But many, many of my friends and family did; and it was really, really creepy.

Again, I'm not trying to sound elitist (I have more than enough guilty pleasures of my own), but I honestly think this type of story belongs on local newscasts and *maybe* a quick mention on CNN. I guess its good ratings fodder.

Yesterday, I had a dental appt. and didn't go to work. I came home rather early, took one of the two happy pills the dentist gave me, lay on the couch and started channel surfing til the happy-pill kicked in. Every (EVERY) news channel had this story running over and over again to a point of almost absurdest humor.

I guess I just don't get it...

Edited for: lack of pronouns in critical spots :P

[Rex]

213. I tried not to pay any attention to the case, ever.

That poor little girl, all she wanted to do was please people. Now mom is dead and this Oswald looking fella says he did it, though his wife has an alibi for both of them. I always thought this case was weird and now it gets weirder IMO.

[LynneSin]

214. I was more worried about the thousands of other kids missing or murdered

and wondering why they weren't getting 24x7 coverage like the Ramseys.

[Akim]

216. Hopefully they won't have to wait as long for justice. n/t

Hopefully they won't have to wait as long for justice as JoanBenet has (10 years).

[LynneSin]

219. You think this Ramsey kid is the only unsolved mystery surrounding a kid

Trust me, there have been parents waiting way longer than that. Her story was important to put on the news but not important for me to be deluged with 24hr coverage on every fricking channel, even non-news channels.

It's not uncommon for parents & family members to hire not only lawyers but PR firms to help push this ad nauseum coverage. This is why I rarely watch MSM.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

222. I have a possible answer for that

I never paid this story any attention back when it was fresh. Didn't see what all the fuss was about beyond the semi-strange pagaent photos of the little girl.

However, when Patsy died a month ago, I read a couple little details about the case that made me very curious. And then I got kind of sucked into the whole thing.

The thing that interested me was just the weird, weird clues that didn't add up in any rational way. Everything from the ransom note, to the pineapple, to the discovery of the body, to the 911 call a few nights before...I don't know that Agatha Christie could have come up with a more puzzling locked-room type scenario.

And I think that's partly why it became so big in the media. There was legitimately a lot to talk about. I have lots of compassion and sorrow for all the other missing or murdered children -- but, truthfully, most of those cases aren't *that* interesting from a details point of view.

(Just to clarify as the above sounds a little cold -- if your child is supposed to come home from school at 4:00 and simply never arrives, just vanishes...that leaves very little for the Nancy Graces et al to discuss. There are no clues, no leads, no contradictory evidence...)

[girl gone mad]

221. I'm still on the fence.

To me, the ransom note screams 'Patsy' with all the melodrama and the feminine prose.

The forensic evidence also seems to point to an attempted cover up by the parents.

Still, even though I believe the intruder theory is far fetched, I wouldn't feel comfortable convicting the parents based on the evidence I've seen.

[Imagevision]

223. Patsy Ramsey's emotional response = to a Hollywood B movie ->

compared to other mothers, Patsy's response was equvilant to the next door naighbor's daughter being harmed.

[Saphire]

224. I did, and to an extent, still do.

[flyarm]

225. i still do..not were..but i still believe that!

and this is such a bullshit story that now all the media pundits are playing cya right now!!

all day yesterday..oh this guy has had his dna done ..not true, as per media today..

and now the x wife says he was with she and his 3 children all day that christmas day ..

this smells to high heaven..

just my 2 cents..

fly

[slackmaster]

226. I never did - They would have had to have fabricated all the evidence

Evidence to make it look like a bungled kidnapping, or a rape that turned into a murder which was then attempted to be disguised as a bungled kidnapping.

It seemed too convoluted to come up with a scenario in which they were guilty. What actually happened (so it now appears) is at the fringes of believability but it involves fewer parties and degrees of separation than the parents being involved.

And whether just one or both of them had done it, I never believed they both could have kept their stories straight.

[Darth_Kitten]

229. I don't know what to think now.......

this whole case is so confusing...... :(

[Snivi Yllom]

237. can we just make them all go away

turning off the news

[Akim]

243. It's An Ugly World. Ignoring that Fact Won't Make It Go Away. n/t

[Iris]

267. Sure, it's an ugly world. But is this a story that needs to be told over

and over again?

There are things going on that actually affect people's lives that are woefully under-reported. Like in Canton, OH, where 65 out of 1300 teenaged girls in the school district are pregnant after receiving abstinence only education. Their lives are changed forever but I haven't seen word one about this on a tv news broadcast.

[confludemocrat]

258. I did.

[upi402]

265. I had no opinion on the Ramseys, myself.

But I do have doubts about the guy they have in custody being guilty of it.

[Akim]

268. Karr Exposed As Fraud. John Ramsey Still the Only Adult...

besides the late Patsy Ramsey who was in the house when JonBenet was murdered.

[Divameow77]

269. You don't know that.

How do you "know" there wasn't another adult in the house, were you there?

I'm not going to claim to know what happend but they have physical eveidence that does not link the family to this crime. They have DNA that does not match any family member, don't they have a strange hand print or something too? The court didn't find enough evidence to charge anyone in the Ramsey family and that's good enough for me at this point.
I'm not sure if this Karr guy did it, but I will say that spouses do lie, so I wouldn't automatically assume he has an alibi, and if he didn't kill her he still needs to locked up for a long time, this guy is just sick.