instead of "Islamic fascists" say "Islamic fundamentalists are fascists"

[dusmcj]

I've been watching the discussion of this go by, and it seems like no one gets the point:

- fascism isn't about a government, it's a mentality that values enthusiasm for authority and strength, particularly as expressed by the organs of formal government, unification of the people's will behind projects which usually involve aggression and expansion, and creation of "enemies" in the public consciousness and vigorous denunciation of them.

- observing the way Hamas and Hezbollah both operate in their territories, we note that they operate as the classic precursors to authoriarian regimes - they exist outside the framework of a weak formal government, and have the means to overcome any coercive force that that government can wield. They build public support by carrying out the tasks that formal social structures (i.e. government) usually carries out, but exact a price of loyalty, silence and possible money from their captive populations. This is no different than the Mafia in a Sicilian village, Slavic mobs throughout the ex-East Bloc, or militias in failed states in Africa.

- we note that these entities are powerful enough to serve as the tools of third-party state actors, e.g. Hezbollah's linkage to Iran. Hezbollah may like stylin' as a "resistance", but since 2000, the "resistance" aspect of its existence has been the Che-T-shirt-from-Benetton-for-the-teenies variety, since there was no external force to "resist". The symbiotic relationship of these group with entities external to their home territory trying to gain influence in those venues is another hallmark of protofascist entities.

- when we review the cultural program that radical Islamic fundamentalists associated with military action against the west promote, we note:
- assertion of the subordination of women. Everything from having to wear a garbage bag over their head in public, to lack of freedom of sexual choice, to lack of economic rights, the same sad litany of oppression of the feared sensual individual other which so threatens the subsistence-survival oriented tribe is evident
- expansionist and coercive foreign policy. From the farcical arguing over whether Israel's right to exist should be acknowledged and flatulence about "dismantling the state of Israel", to Bin Ladin's opium dreams about reestablishing the caliphate from Gibraltar to Malacca, to the grandiose imagery and scoring of Hamas propaganda videos, the enthusiasm for the power of the unified tribe as conquering force in the external world is evident
- orientation to social reaction. From vice and virtue police, to the abovementioned subordination of women, to the enforcement of religious orthodoxy, "a people who value honor" is a figleaf covering a culture and set of social values which prioritize the protection of the tribe's subsistence survival needs over the guaranteeing and exercise of the inherent rights of the individual, and in the process lose the benefits to human development which the latter bring. Nothing is more reactionary than telling your young people, your people's future, that the best they can aspire to is suicide. This is a mark of failure of the leadership of that culture.

We have religious reactionaries across the globe, including here at home. Their programs are remarkably similar, and harken back to other reactionaries from other times who promoted the same degeneracy. It is absolutely correct that what the current crop of Islamic fundamentalists promote is fascism, and if people are misled by the connotations of the phrase "Islamic fascists", then simply edit it to say "Islamic fundamentalists who are fascist" and everything will be fine.

[demosincebirth]

1. The majority of Muslims are fundamentalist but only few

are "fascist."

[meldroc]

3. Not much of a difference.

Bush fascists and Islamic fundamentalist theocrats are two types of assholes - both authoritarians who want to shove their will down people's throats. I have respect for neither.

[demosincebirth]

8. I agree with you, I was only trying to stick with the post.

and not create a bonfire.

[ComerPerro]

2. I prefer calling them religious fundimentalists

Religious fundimentalists like Osama bin Laden and Pat Robertson

[VOX]

15. Excellent call. Nail the ones who mix violence & war into their religion.

Osama = Pat Robertson...two sides of the same ugly coin.

[ShortnFiery]

4. Then, in turn ...

It would stand to reason that Our RADICAL Neo-Conservative Executive Branch with Christian Fundamentalist Supporters could qualify as "Christian Fundamentalists who are Fascist."

I'm sickened by the overt efforts to paint Our Country's Christian Fundamentalist CRAZIES who adore Authoritarian Rule as LESS DANGEROUS as our named Adversaries = The Islamic Fundamentalist CRAZIES on the other side of The Bell Curve.

Me thinks that Thom Hartmann is right - It's time for us folks in "The Radical Middle" to TAKE CONTROL of our Foreign Policy in order to prevent The Rapture.

Forgive me, but in all honesty, BOTH SIDES frighten me beyond words. They both want the annihilation of "The Other." We (those of us not whacked out by Adoration of The Violence in the name of Their Religion) must stop them both in favor of An Negotiated (not the same as appeasement!) End of Hostilities."

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. Sorry, but you're wrong.

'Fascism' is a political philosophy. The term expressly refers to a strongly centralised, authoritarian, militaristic and nationalistic state with a planned economy under which the means of production remain in private hands. Benito Mussolini coined the term 'fascism', after the fasces, a bundle of rods with an axe at the centre that symbolised the strength and authority of the imperial Roman state (strength, because a bundle of rods is more difficult to break than a single one, and authority, because the axe represented the life-and-death power of the state, in the person of the dictator, over the people).

Religious fundamentalism, even extreme religious fundamentalism, is NOT 'fascism'.

[dusmcj]

6. fascist government needs a fascist public mentality in order to succeed.

Nazi Germany is a laboratory example of this. Without the tacit enthusiasm of the people and the leadership strata of German society, particularly business, for the constructed values of the Nazi state, particularly the enthusiasm for authority, expansion, unified tribal communalism, and amoral application of national resources to support of said programs, the Nazi state could not have survived. The people always have the power, whether they're aware of exercising it or not doesn't matter.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Not necessarily;

fascist government just needs a disaffected, demoralised, or frightened public in order to succeed. Had it not been for the ruinous effects of the Treaty of Versailles on the German economy, or the perceived threat of revolution and civil war in Italy in the early 1920's, we should have never heard of either Hitler or Mussolini. Fear and a sense in the populace of lost national pride were the soil in which fascism grew; fear breeds anger and resentment, and fascist ideologues were able to take advantage of those sentiments, and promised to restore the pride of the nation and make it great. You're ridiculously oversimplifying the nature of fascism, its root causes, and the reasons for its success.

[ShortnFiery]

7. Excellent points :-)

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time our Dear Leaders don't let the facts get in the way of a catchy phrase. ;) After all we are now in the middle of viewing (via CNN's terminology) "The President's Terrorism World Tour." :scared:

"Religious fundamentalism, even extreme religious fundamentalism, is NOT 'fascism'." :thumbsup:

[dusmcj]

9. when people tell me what to wear or whether I can fuck, they're fascists

If they have a government enabling them, so much the worse. Again, without the people being in the right state, fascism is impossible. A fascist government requires a fascist people. The personal is still the political, and here in the progressive underground, it would behoove us to recall that absolute truth.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. No, you CALL them fascists. That doesn't make it so.

'Fascist' is a word with a precise meaning. It is NOT a synonym for 'totalitarian' or 'authoritarian'.

[ShortnFiery]

16. Hey, let's look at how it's NOT Playing in the USA?

The 20-25% who would max out the pain to someone else (a la Milgram) are "coming undone" this summer within the good ole' USA.

It's like Todo has scampered over and pulled back the curtain - displaying a gross caricature of Pat Robertson in bed with a live boy or a dead girl. :wow:

My point: It's not playing with the public and if WE refuse the terminology it will cease ... just like when FAUX tried to shove the term "homicide bombers" down our throats.

No need to split hairs over offensive terminology if the GENERAL public is NOT buying the FEAR FEST to begin with. :shrug: :hi:

[PATRICK]

10. Or widen the tag

You surrender the insult tag that the ME recognizes, but why should they? The most Europeanized nation there is Israel and technically "fascism" as a monstrously modern condemned version of RW authoritarianism is a European commodity. It was exported to the ME by the Germans in the larva thug underground stage. It was exported to their elites by the Western money and oil magnates. It was accommodated to by Sharon and others to break into the cabal as its strangest player. Now, in the general war against all human social evils you can get confused seeing fascism in older ME patterns. Notice how many of the direct adherents to actual fascist heritage and top players get totally missed.

It is also just a hot swear word, so everyone uses it against everyone for everything. That becomes a schoolyard shouting match and it is that debasement of dialog that our administration fervently desires so they can loot from your desks while the suckers are slugging it out on the playground.

[undeterred]

13. instead of "Islamic fascists" say Bush and his administration are fascists

}(

[Canuckistanian]

14. Because "fundamentalist" hits too close to home

They don't want to believe that a religion alone can make one a crazed nutcase. They want to avoid the definition "fundamentalist = mad killer"

Therefore, they widen the definition to include all Muslims.

[Igel]

19. Because 'fundamentalist' is a pointless word in this regard.

Consider what a fundamentalist Jew, Xian, Buddhist, Taoist, and Muslim have in common. That is fundamentalism: an adherence to a fairly conservative, frequently literal interpretation of their texts.

A fundamentalist Jew will want Jews to be observant, and to work to establish a temple in Zion and Jewish control over all the land given to them by YHWH, enforcing the OT Law as commanded. However that needs to be done. He will not much care what happens elsewhere. Haredi. Kach.

A fundamentalist Xian's typically have a bad rap. They talk much more than they act; those that act are considered insane and shunned, by and large. Few believe they'll control society; Xian reconstructionists are pre-millennialists, and think they need to restructure society from the ground up, and only then will the government--democratically--reflect the change. This view among Xians is extremist, for the faith's founder had no government and preached no enforcement.

But this view is judged moderate among Muslims. Fundamentalist Muslims tend to believe in jihad. This is against injustice, oppression, and to spread Islam. Their founder was not just prophet, but also warrior. Khaiber is an example to follow for them.

What a fundamentalist Buddhist would be like, I don't know. Or a fundamentalist Taoist. But they, no doubt, exist.

To recap: fundamentalism points to the believers' attitudes towards the founding documents and how they regard others with different attitudes. It points to little else in the political realm; that's derivative from the documents and their interpretations.

[Canuckistanian]

21. Wow, good post

You should start a thread about fundamentalism.

My only point was that the word itself is starting to take on sinister meaning.

[Igel]

25. That it is, a very sinister meaning.

Actually, 'fundie' is beginning to sound kind of cute and pleasant by comparison. :-)

[bullimiami]

17. fascism is...

Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.

Bush is trying to remake america into a fascist state combined with christian fundamentalism to help control the population.

There are Islamic countries that lean fascist but they are typically friends of the NeoCons. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Pakistan, the new Afghanistan. The rulers (often dictators) pay lip service to religion out of necessity.

The so called 'war on terror' is not a war against people that believe in fascism. That is a lie and a deliberate one just to tag them with another negative label. They are typically Muslim Fundamenalists who want Theocracy.

Theocracy is commonly used to describe a form of government in which a religion or metaphysical faith plays the dominant role.

Bush is not a theocrat, he is a neo-fascist that pays lip service to religion.

[orwell]

18. Religious fundamentalists...

...who are pro-corporate?

That sounds like a different religion to me...

[bullimiami]

22. the xtians are managing it pretty well.

[Igel]

20. Except you need a noun.

"An Islamic fundamentalist is a fascist blew himself up yesterday" lacks grammaticality and compactness.

And "Islamic fundamentalist" is unlikely to be judged much better than other derisive terms. The problem is saying that their actions have anything to do with Islam, however much the people involved say it does, and whatever history and juridical interpretation may have been.

In an attempt to make sure that everybody is treated so that they're equally insulted, they have to be treated unequally. This is a distraction from identifying the problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Look, folks, the correct term is islamisticianity.

Or you can call it Islamo-puritano-shakerism.

But please, don't call it a planet.

[Odin2005]

24. Better yet, just quit using the comparison.

The Neo-Cons want the Islamic terrorists to be called fascists, it's part of the Straussian "usefull myth" they have concoted. Untill * pissed the whole Muslim world off Islamic terrorism had been in decline since the early 90's when an ever growing cycle of violence caused by the extremist Islamist belief that anyone who disagreed with them could be killed pissed the average muslim off. Hyper-extremist Islam was pretty much dead by the mid 90's

AQ never anything more then a tiny buch of these extremists retreating to the only safe place left for them to go, and this tiny bunch was pretty much annihalated with the invasion of Afganistan. The idea of AQ as a super-powerful network is a neo-con lie, another Straussian "useful myth." All the terrorist cells that have sprung up since 9/11 were disaffected muslims who thought that the Neo-con BS about a "super-powefull AQ" was reality. Neo-Con lies have created a new crop if extremists by making AQ seem more powerfull then it really was.

[seabeyond]

26. "small extremist group" cause it is not always fundamentalist

and not all fundamentalist, both christian and islamic are either extremist or fascist