Stop already with the cold and callous analysis about the Ramseys

[az chela]

There was never any evidence that the Ramseys were guilty and that this case was all about politics!!!
The DA decided the Ramseys were guilty and then never looked at anyone else as a real suspect.
I never believed the Ramseys were guilty and had some very vicious arguments with my sister about this.
The dna evidence was never idenified that was semen on Jon Bennet and mostly just ignored by the prosecutors.
Since the death of Jon Bennet her mother Patsy had her cancer return,she was completely messed up mentally and was never given the time to find out what happened to her daughter,who she adored, as she died a few months ago.
I hope that she is now with Jon Bennet and knows the truth.The family was put thru hell thanks to the stuborn prosecutors who were trying to make a name for themselves.
Rest In peace Patsy and Jon Bennet.My heart aches for the rest of their family.
HOw devastating this is for John and Burke.

[maddiejoan]

1. Dunno if the Ramsey's were guilty of physical murder...

...but they sure were guilty of soul-murder when they turned their baby girl into a painted up sex object.

[CrushTheDLC]

6. I have to agree....

The Ramseys were some sick fucking excuses for human beings, murderers or not. And while I don't wish cancer on anybody, I can't help but think Karma might have played a part in Patsy's demise. As for John, he's known to be a right wing fundy neocon bastard, so that one just writes itself, doesn't it? If they weren't guilty of the murder itself, they certainly appeared to be hiding something. And I question the mentality of anyone who paints up a 5 year old and parades her around like a show dog.

[politicat]

18. Um.. I worked for the guy. Right wing fundy? I don't think so.

Yes, he was a successful businessman, but lefty-libertarian is the worst he could be called then. And he has since refused to have any ties with the Republican party because of the disgraceful way that the right wing treated him and his wife after his child died. He was a strong funder of various left and environmental groups in the Boulder community.

Because they hired lawyers to keep an inept police department off their backs, they were hiding something? We had to hire a lawyer when we had a house fire. We had to hire one when we had a car accident. Hiring a lawyer is not proof of anything - it's called self-preservation. When the cops are gunning for you and are doing a lazy job of investigation, then yes, you get your own experts. And honestly, the Boulder cops blew this one -- they had no experience with a serious crime of this nature (they spend most of their time busting drunk frat rats and breaking up house parties) and they didn't have the money, the local enforcement * or the skills to handle it.

*At the time of the murder, most Boulder cops, firefighters and teachers did not live in the City of Boulder itself because housing prices are incredibly high. They lived in the several surrounding communities (Lafayette, Louisville, Longmont and Superior) and commute to work. Because they were not Boulder residents, they tend to have less of a feel for how the community works. This case actually brought this serious issue to the attention of the city, and now City and County employees are guaranteed a living wage and given housing assistance to help them be part of the community they care for.

And as for baby beauty contests, I don't agree and I wouldn't do it with my child, but I also wouldn't put my kid into a full-time enrichment and development program, or do t-ball or pop warner or cheer, either. I don't see the point and I think kids learn best by doing and being. But I'm not going to criticize any parent who chooses to put their kid in any competitive program of that nature. Obviously, the Ramseys saw some value in it and there is no doubt in my mind that that child was absolutely adored by both of her parents.

Unlike you, I saw her alive a couple of times, and she enjoyed her performances. Obviously, you've never been around many little girls, who frequently LOVE to play dressup; Beauty pageants are dress up games writ large.

[merci_me]

20. But didn't he recently run as a Republican

for a state office in Michigan?

By JO NAPOLITANO (NYT)
Published: May 12, 2004

John Ramsey, whose daughter, JonBenet, was killed in 1996, announced his candidacy for the statehouse. Mr. Ramsey, a Republican who was once at the center of the investigation into his daughter's death, joins the race for the 105th District. JonBenet's killing is still under investigation. Jo Napolitano (NYT)

[politicat]

35. Note that that was after he'd been hounded into the ground....

And he's never had a good thing to say about the Colorado Republican party.

IIRC (it has been 10 years) he seemed more of the old style, libertarian, small government, leave individuals alone republicans rather than the Neo-con control everyone and make us all bible beating zombies type of republican. He was a computer guy, and libertarianism runs deep in us geeks.

They may have gotten religion after the girl died. It's not uncommon.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[suziedemocrat]

75. What a terrible thing to write/say.

I wonder if your life could live up to that kind of judgmental scrutiny.

[sgxnk]

77. it's equally as stupid

and bizarre as the pat robertson types' proclamations

[sgxnk]

76. lol. foolish

"he Ramseys were some sick fucking excuses for human beings, murderers or not. And while I don't wish cancer on anybody, I can't help but think Karma might have played a part in Patsy's demise"

you sound like a funhouse mirror version of pat robertson

this is truly a disgusting and absurd sentiment imo

not to mention completely wacko in a religious fundamentalist sort of way. which is incredibly ironic

was it "instant karma" or "slow cook" ?

(sarcasm)

[EST]

7. While, like you, I find little girl beauty pageants, and big girl

beauty pageants, for that matter, tasteless and needlessly exploitive, don't you think such terms as "soul murder" a little excessive?

[maddiejoan]

42. not particularly

[Sugarcoated]

64. I thought "soul murder" was over the top,

Just a smidgen.

[Warpy]

11. Wrong

That would likely have been a turnoff to a pedophile. They like kids to look like kids. If he's a 41 year old second grade teacher, it's highly unlikely he saw Jon Benet dressed up for a kiddie beauty show. He's far likelier to have spotted a beautiful little kid on the school playground.

That's like telling women who have been raped that they shouldn't have worn shorts or walked through a parking garage. The onus is on the criminal.

Never the victim.

[lonestarnot]

13. hmmmm. Wonder what the connection from GA was?

Shit now we'll have to hear about this for months on end.

[GardeningGal]

16. Yes. Here are a couple of links to Denver stations reporting

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=189d522a-0abe-421a-00f3-dded5288de58&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/index.html

The second link goes to the main page, but that's all they have on it right now.

[maddiejoan]

27. And how do you think Jon Benet felt?

Missing out on an actual childhood to get paraded around like a wedding cake?

[Warpy]

57. She looked to me like she enjoyed being a fairy princess

and dressing up in beautiful constumes.

Check out the kid's FACE.

Hey, it's not my bag, but I didn't see a sullen, pouting, crying, or even depressed kid. I saw a little girl who loved dressing up and strutting her stuff in those silly pageants.

I have to think that's how she felt.

[AZBlue]

31. THANK YOU!!

For the sanity and logic!

[laundry_queen]

68. Exactly.

All this talk about this child being murdered because she was on the pageant circuit is ridiculous. It's not something I would do with my daughters, but I will attest to them wanting to dress up and parade around and perform all the time. Maybe if I had been in pageants and enjoyed it I'd enter them in it IF I had a good experience as a child (As Patsy Ramsey said she had) and they wanted to. Most pictures I saw of JonBenet in pageants she didn't look overtly sexualized, apart from the make up, which I dislike, but again, that in no way contributes to her demise. Blaming the victim(s) indeed!

[EST]

2. Is it possible the phrosecutors in questios, as well as the

police commissioner or sheriff involved, were republiclownz?

Strikes me that would fit the picture, given neoclown and republiclown incompetence and general lack of empathy or human understanding.

[politicat]

24. No, not rethugs... just Boulder.

Realize that ten years ago, Boulder had not had a murder in three years. It's a peaceful, prosperous little town (and we don't have a lot of crime now, other than drunken frat rats and rampaging football teams). The police weren't able to handle a less than straight forward crime. They pulled an Occam's razor, but this time the razor was not the right answer. Boulder is a place cops come to relax, not really work. It's not the kind of city where things happen.

This is a Colorado problem, and it has to do with a concept that *has* filtered down from the rethugs: performance based public service promotions. In other words, cops get promotions based on the number of tickets or busts or whatever that go to court. So there is an incentive on the cops to get cases off their desks and into the courts as quickly as possible. There are a lot of cases that end up getting overturned on appeal because the cops are lazy about evidence or they go with the easiest possible solution, whether it's right or not. Having run afoul of this tendency ourselves* we are very aware that performance based promotion does not serve justice nor the public interest.

* (we had a house fire where the source was not immediately identifiable, though eventually it was traced back to a combination of cleaners that leaked out of their bottles under the sink; I was pressured by the police to confess to setting the fire, though I didn't and wasn't even home at the time; eventually, they got around to testing the evidence, after we spent a lot of money on lawyers and such.)

[ellie]

61. Whatever happened with the

Susannah Chase case? Did they ever catch anyone? I lived in Boulder during the time she was murdered.

[politicat]

67. They've got DNA and fingerprint evidence, but whoever hasn't hit the DB

Yet. So far. It will happen eventually, there's no doubt about that, but as to when it will happen... that could take a while.

[Missy M]

3. I agree with everything you said....

I have never understood how anyone could think the Ramsey's killed their daughter. I know the media played a big part in making the Ramsey's seem quilty. I just heard an interview Wolfie did with the attorney Robert Shapiro. Shapiro said the media was unmerciful with the Ramsey's and Wolf got all defensive and said "we were only reporting what was given us by the authorities". He was really flustered and I loved it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. Good grief!

Ummm...Wolf, just so you know. Being a journalist entails more than parroting whatever line you are fed by an 'authority' verbatim.

Gah! This is the same lameass excuse they use for repeating every scurrilous rumor about Bill Clinton, allowing the Swift Boat smear job against Kerry to get legs, covering for Bush admin. incompetence and chicanery, etc. etc. My eighth grade jounalism teacher would have flunked all of them.

[Missy M]

17. I loved what Shapiro had to say about the media and Wolf was...

speechless at first. Then he offered his lame excuse and it was obvious he was flustered. It made my day. I do wish they all had flunked, we would all be better off.

[EFerrari]

12. The Ramseys' were suspected 1) because the family always is and

2) because they exploited their daughter.

Regardless, let's hope this case can be resolved for everyone's sake. :(

[Missy M]

15. I realize the family is always considered suspect but ....

when there is no evidence they were involved they are no longer under suspicion. I don't believe the Ramsey's thought they were exploiting their daughter even though the beauty pageants for small children are not something I agree with. The media was being exploitive in my opinion and they will probably be again with the latest developments. I did read that the Ramsey's were aware of the suspect before Patsy Ramsey died so I hope it gave her some satisfaction.

[EFerrari]

19. Oh, I agree. The corporate media loves these terrible stories.

But, whether they thought they were exploiting their daughter or not, they were. And the herd picks up on that.

So sad, for everyone.

[sandnsea]

23. Little girls who love to play dress-up

Oh the horror of it. Just because it isn't your bag doesn't mean there aren't other little girls who like to sing and dance and wear frilly clothes. It is not exploitation, it's CHOICE which is supposed to be the very essence of feminism. This coming from someone who hasn't worn a dress in 20 years and has to buy make-up to wear it to formal occasions because I never have any. Judgmentalness does NOT just come from the religious or the snobs.

[EFerrari]

25. You must be joking, I hope you're joking.

Little girls have to be taught to dress and act seductively. That's not dress up, my friend. That's the parents working a racket.

Geezus.

[politicat]

33. I respectfully disagree on the dress part....

Having been one of five sisters and having nieces, cousins and goddaughters of the 3-7 range... dress up is a major activity, and they pick up the "seduction" as you call it from the culture around them. I won't even call it seduction; it's playing and performance. I was in grad school at the time, working on my master's in clinical psych. I can guarantee that I then and now know the difference between a child who delights in the performance of dress-up activities and one who is being manipulated and abused.

I worked for Access Graphics at the time. I'd met the girl, both of her parents and I knew that social circle. I'd seen her perform live at a company party. She wasn't seductive. She was cute and she was a little ham. So are almost all of the five year olds I know.

Don't believe what the media showed you - the 20 second clip that they showed was maybe a tenth of one percent of everything that was ever filmed, and I can guarantee they went through those tapes looking for the most incriminating clip they could find.

[EFerrari]

38. I have 3 beautiful nieces and agree about the behavior.

But that little girl didn't record those images OF HERSELF.

I really don't want to say any thing about those parents. They have been in hell and I hope their hell ends soon. :(

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

41. Thank you, sandnsea, for your considered opinion. n/t

[boston bean]

47. the seductiveness was in the eye of the beholder. Anyone who

could remotely see that five year old girl as sexy or seductive has got some problems.

So no I don't think normal people saw her as sexy, just a five year old girl dressing up for a friggin beauty pageant.

Now I do not intend this to mean that you have problems, but that you are just spouting what the media has told you for the last 10 years.

[EFerrari]

48. Well, no. I don't even want to post those images here because

they are creepy.

And she was not just "dressing up". Her clothes and make up were put together by who, do you think? Do you think for a minute that that child was ALLOWED to choose her own clothes?

And who took and distributed her pictures?

I guess if you want to overlook OBVIOUS exploitation of that little girl, that's up to you. And ya know, it's possible to notice a child being exploited without actually exploiting them your own self.

:)

[boston bean]

49. It's not something I would do with my daughter if I had one,

but those were pageants for little girls.

I think you make too much of it.

That's all.

:pals:

[EFerrari]

51. You may be right. It just creeped me out that this little girl is

sexualized in those images. Her face and body are treated as if she's a much older girl. It's as if she was put in drag or something.

Whatever. I hope this is just over for everyone soon. I can't imagine what that family has been through. :(

/is

[boston bean]

52. I can see your point, but

Jon Benet wasn't trying to be sexy, she probably liked to dress up for the pageants, like most young girls do.

Her mother was a beauty queen you know it was part of the family make up.

I don't think the mother had Jon Benet do it to look seductive, but to have fun and introduce her to a world that she herself, Patsy, belonged to once.

But with that said, it is not something I would do because I wasn't allowed to wear make up until I was sixteen! That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[EFerrari]

53. LOl! Okay! Maybe I should borrow that one!

:)

[laundry_queen]

70. I'm wondering if you're joking.

I'm not exactly a girly girl, more of a tomboy (I've worn skirts exactly 3 times in the last 10 years, and never a dress - oh wait, except for my wedding) and my daughters are all extremely into dress up, frilly things and LOVE to perform and dance. My first daughter wore mostly gender neutral clothes until she was about 4 and demanded girly dresses. LOL, *I* sure didn't teach her that, and we were fairly isolated at the time so she didn't have a lot of outside influences.
And I don't see how a child performing or dancing = acting seductively :shrug:
I'm not a fan of pageants. I do believe that the fact JonBenet was in pageants has nothing to do with the case, just a handy little tidbit the media loooooves to exploit. I also don't believe most pageant parents are there to exploit their little ones - most are probably very naive about the implications and enjoy time with their kids. But that's just me. I don't agree with it, but I don't think they should be villified for it if something happens to their kid.

[politicat]

26. It's since come out that the media made up a lot of what they reported.

Or a very few journalists here in the local area. It could have been a career making story (had it been true) and a journalist uncovered it... but it wasn't and instead it pretty much destroyed a bunch of careers, including the journalists whose speculations backfired on them.

The Rocky, the Camera and the Times Call all had a hand in the ... imaginings. Of course, there were cops who took tabloid money, too; Boulder cops don't make a lot. For that matter, several of my co-workers were offered a nice sum by certain tabloids out of Florida (whose initials are NE and WS) for dirt, and they could have made up far worse things about the Ramseys than were reported. We didn't.

[elehhhhna]

4. I'm reserving judgement until the facts are known at trial.

or longer.

Too many loose ends.

[stray cat]

5. What a hell to go through if they really are innocent as it appears

Its a shame Patsy died with the suspician still hanging over her. A good reminder of the principle innocent until proven guilty.

[lostnfound]

63. AMEN. It makes me very angry to see parents labelled as suspects

by the media or the police without good hard evidence.

What kind of society risks incorrectly labelling the grieving parents of a murdered child as the murderers, for the sake of TV news or 'resolving the issue' in the minds of disinterested viewers?

[liberaldemocrat7]

8. I did not realize Patsy Ramsey had died.

I cannot say whether they did anything with Jon Benet.

I do recall Mr. Ramsey ran as a Republican for some office in Michigan and lost.

[bdamomma]

62. Yes, Patsy Ramsey (in June) died of ovarian cancer

well she is with her daughter now, RIP.

[MrCoffee]

10. Yeah, stop. That's CNN's job, leave it to the professionals.

[mopinko]

14. always blame the parent, you know

people here are very quick to trash parents for just about anything.
we had a case here several years ago, and i don't remember the name. but a kid was murdered, and the father was railroaded, and sent to prison. iirc, he was one of the early exonerations thanks to dna. can't imagine a worse nightmare.

[Branjor]

29. Jaclyn Dowaliby...

Her father, David Dowaliby, was sent to prison for it, but the guilty party was really her Uncle Timothy.

[boston bean]

50. how about the young boy who was accused of murdering his

own sister. (wish I could remember the name)

DNA finally put an end to that witch hunt incompetence as well.

[mopinko]

54. that's right. dad must have been the killer because

he had a 20 year old pot bust on his record.
:eyes:

[durrrty libby]

21. I truly feel so sorry for that family

The whole sordid mess is a shameful commentary on our pitiful society.
Exploiting children

Horrendous police work

Political hackery

Reckless Tabloid media



:grr: :cry:

[redherring]

22. I feel that they were not good parents

Who in their right minds would make their children participate in beauty contests? The second point here is that, while it seems to be true that the Ramseys had no hand in the murder of their daughter, statistics seems to point to the fact that in most cases of similar nature, the perpetrators are usually parents. We shouldn't rush to conclusion, but as is the case in America, you're guilty until you're proven innocent.

[savemefromdumbya]

30. were the beauty contests related to the murder?

someone she knew from the pageants?

[redherring]

36. Who knows?

Maybe the murderer saw her in that beauty contest? It's a possibility.

[cynatnite]

28. The family lost a daughter...

As I understand it, parents are suspects. Authorities not only investigate them, but also are looking for other possible suspects. I didn't have a problem with that in this case, but it went too far, IMO. They were demonized in the worst possible way.

This should be a warning to all parents who suffer such a tragic loss.

[Scout1071]

32. The Ramseys were and have been totally innocent.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the Fundie nature of John & Patsy Ramsey, but what has happened to them is horrific. Not only did they lose their small daughter in one of the most horrific crimes ever perpetuated on a child, but then they were completely tried in the media with ZERO evidence linking them to the crime. I imagine that had to be almost as hard as losing their daughter. To this day people act so callous towards them. You could see the heartache in Patsy Ramsey's eyes. Until the day she died, she looked like a woman who had been beaten and her heart ripped out of her chest.

I don't like the pageants. But I'm not judging or condemning the Ramsey's for making their daughter participate. I'm not crazy about it, but I sure as hell wouldn't want Fundie types telling me how to raise my children.

I'm just sorry that she was not able to see justice before she died. She was so close.

[pecwae]

73. Seems I heard she

was told before she died that there was a suspect they were closing in on. If this is true I hope it gave her some small peace at her end.

[johnnie]

34. I just looked all over

I see people starting threads on stopping this, but where are the people doing what you are saying they are doing?

[TheFriedPiper]

37. The most important thing to remember is:

WHO GIVES A SHIT? (beyond those that knew her)

Enough about it.

Geez.

Tabloid pablum. Another missing girl (yawn)


Meanwhile, our Democracy is being stolen.

[Scout1071]

43. Gee, I hope nobody ever rapes and murders your daughter,

then accuses you of it in the media for 10 years despite all the evidence pointing to an outsider.

Seriously, could you be any more callous? If it bothers you to feel a tiny bit of sympathy for the family, how about you just ignore the thread?

[TheFriedPiper]

44. It's silly that this is even talked about on the news

The theft of our Democracy is being ignored by the news while it tells us about yet another missing girl.

Sorry, but, unless you were close to them, this story DOES NOT MATTER.

[Scout1071]

45. It is news.

You obviously have zero compassion.

This is newsworthy. I care that they have a pedophile under arrest in Bangkok. I think all their faces should be televised, then jailed. Especially those that rape and murder children.

We can save our Democracy and show a little compassion at the same time.

[Scout1071]

46. It is news.

You obviously have zero compassion.

This is newsworthy. I care that they have a pedophile under arrest in Bangkok. I think all their faces should be televised, then jailed. Especially those that rape and murder children.

We can save our Democracy and show a little compassion at the same time.

[az chela]

56. I could not agree with you more.

The Ramseys have suffered all these years and it finally killed Patsy.They both loved their daughter very much and the fact that semen was found on Jon Bennet and didnt match any of the suspects simply was ignored

[TheFriedPiper]

59. and yet it still doesnt rate being national news

[durrrty libby]

69. One of the attributes that separate dems

from the despicable pukes is their capacity for empathy

That is the quality I love most




:hi:

[Bluebear]

40. Where is said cold and callous analysis?

I would love to read it if you could provide a link, thanks.

[az chela]

55. I wrote those words as i feel that the Ramseys have been

brutalized by the media and the police and the Da and I never believed they were guilty

[Bluebear]

71. Ah.

Well I agree with you. They were indeed tried in the media.

[Jed Dilligan]

60. Yeah, them and OJ too

Poor innocent lambs...

[Sugarcoated]

66. Innocent till proven gulity

It's the way I or anyone would want to be treated if, God forbid, I was ever in such a situation.

[laylah]

65. I agree az...

while, for me, I have always thought Burke was involved and Patsy tried to cover for him, having been but a few miles away, I am elated they have a possible suspect. It was a tragedy, "little white blonde girl" and all. Again, having been in very close proximity to this heinous crime, I, for one, am elated there may yet be closure.

Jenn

[az chela]

72. the man in Tailand confessed and knows things about the crime

that no one else knew.All they have to do is a dna test on the semen that was on Jon Bennet.It did not match her parents but the cops kept that quiet

[suziedemocrat]

74. Those Boulder Police and DA should be ashamed.

First their child dies and then they have to live for 10 years of being accused of her murder.

I caught a Larry King Live show after Patsy's death where they re-ran an old show where this guy who wrote a book is accusing them. He looked like such a prick.