The Rapture Ready must be going through SEVERE Depression.

[Philosoraptor]

I feel their pain, I have suffered many disappointments in my life too. They had their hopes so high, into heaven in fact, and now, just look at the terrible cease fire in Israel and Lebanon, so close to the happy rising, yet, so far.

They were selling their silverware, writing wills, absolutely stimulated and giggly, now they must be passing through the valley of unfulfilled desires.

Pat Robertson is absolutely beside himself with grief at the awful temporary peace going on in the ME, Jews aren't converting to Christ, and Gabriel's horn is as silent as Louie Armstrong's.

If you know of any end timers, be gentle with them right now, as they are just coming to grips with the fact that they still have to hang around you, the lowly non believers.

[noahmijo]

1. I wish the Rapture would hurry along here can't wait till these members

of the Flat Earth Society just disappear off the face of the earth. It'll be a day of celebration I say.

Heh I always tell them that if Heaven is full of people like them I hope I go straight to Hell.

[treestar]

2. Yeah, and before they kill us all in their attempt to bring it on.

[Philosoraptor]

3. Hell is where all the fun people are.

Imagine floating around all day with Pat and Jerry and Jesus and their followers for ETERNITY! Jesus!

[LynneSin]

10. I have a feeling that Pat & Jerry ain't going to be floating with Jesus

I mean even Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And with the money that Pat & Jerry have been raking in these past decades and using that money for their decadent lifestyles, I have a feeling they will be held accountable

[Philosoraptor]

11. Pat & Jerry will be with me, in hell.

And I will torment them so.

[Swamp Rat]

50. Me too!!!!

I'm gonna gnaw on their brains for all eternity. :evilgrin:

[Kurovski]

89. I'm going to date their sons.

Then gay-marry and divorce their asses! :evilgrin:

[Swamp Rat]

97. Pass the pineapples!

:evilgrin:

[Kurovski]

98. They're good luck,

don'cha know.

[niallmac]

16. I don't think Jesus would be caught dead with those people.

I refer to Lenny Bruce and his bit on what Jesus would think if
he suddenly showed up at St Pat's cathedral in New York.

[demnan]

6. I'm with you there

hey I'll meet you for a gin and tonic when we get there! :hi:

[noahmijo]

8. I can't resist-In the immortal words of Bobby Slaton

"Everyone's going to hell except for them. Blacks are going to hell, gays are going to hell, Jews are going to hell. We're all going to hell. Which is fine with me because I'll tell you the blacks will entertain, the Jews will cater and the homos will decorate it'll be one big fuckin party!!"

:)

[Jeroen]

4. There is still hope: August 22!!!

[WePurrsevere]

12. August 22nd? Where do they get these dates? There is not ANY date given in

the Bible just comments, hints and signs (some of which are long gone).

[Jeroen]

17. I know, was just referring to the "Ahmadinejad Nuke Prophecy"

which I don't take serious either.

[calico1]

5. Bummer, isn't it?

Getting your hair all done up, a manicure and pedicure, quitting your job....It really sucks!

:rofl:

[Roy]

88. Ya know...... I have heard that before........

about people quitting their jobs and other silliness preparing for the rapture.

What is it anyhow, if you're employed you can't be raptured... or what?

[ananda]

7. At least global warming..

.. is producing catastrophes and ice melt a lot
faster than we thought.

[WePurrsevere]

9. "Man plans... God Laughs" at least that's what my Xian parents taught me.

Of course they also actually had me READ and LEARN what the BIBLE and history actually asys and not just take the word from some preacher who thinks they have an inside line to the Divine.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. The Rapture:

Self-absolution from any responsibility for its adherents. Don't gotta do anything good for the world because you got an "R" ticket out.

[Harry Monroe]

14. They can all "Self Rapture"...

...any time they want. May I suggest a garden hose and an idling vehicle in a closed garage?? They can get their own "rapture" and meet Jesus face to face; they don't have to involve the rest of us. BTW, does anyone notice the parallels between their "Rapture" and the "72 virgins in heaven"??

[FormerDem06]

26. I see no parrallels.......

One involves personally killing innocent people to become a matyr and to get a place where you can engage in a vice forever and forever. The other involves living a good life and believing in something supernaturally good and to be rewarded as the world continues to fall deeper and deeper into the crapper thanks to people who are losing their moral bearing. When a Christian goes to heaven it's about being united with God and reunited with his/her family, not getting 72 slaves to serve you for eternity.

I'm not a Conservative Christian, but I do believe in the bible, and while I respect your beliefs, statements like that weaken your argument greatly.

Check this out sometime:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769_pf.html

and specifically this:

An eighth grade Saudi textbook equates Jews with "apes" and Christian infidels with "swine."

This indoctrination begins in a first-grade text and is reinforced and expanded each year, culminating in a 12th-grade text instructing students that their religious obligation includes waging jihad against the infidel to "spread the faith."

I have been a christian for 20 years and nowhere in my faith does it advocate any of that. Not even in the wackiest of the "right wing" and conservative churches are you going to find anyone openly advocating the killing of others.

[Gato Moteado]

28. the world continues to fall deeper and deeper into the crapper....

...thanks to world leaders that tie church and state together in order to get votes and support for immoral wars. this goes for leaders in christian, jewish and muslim countries...most of these leaders aren't true believers (i.e. bushco) but they play the part so well the braindead followers line up to vote for them.

the world is falling deeper and deeper into the crapper because of poverty as the rich (who generally think of themselves as christians) amass more and more wealth and the disparity between the rich and poor grows and grows. the world is sinking in the crapper because corporations (who really pull the strings of the fake christian leaders in the west) are controlling more and more and finding an easier time to exploit people and the environment in their quest to have all the money.

the world is falling deeper and deeper into the crapper because the braindead followers of the filthy fake christian right wing leaders have vilified environmentalists (they call them tree huggers and "libruls") and have helped the corporate criminals accelerate global warming.

there are lots of other reasons the world is falling into the crapper but none of them have anything to do with the people who are "losing their moral bearing". i'm assuming you mean the gays, hollywood and women who want to have the right to control their bodies. that sounds like bullshit freeperspeak to me.

your name is FormerDem06. so you're supposedly a former dem, eh? well, what are you now?

p.s. i do agree with you that the so-called rapture is different than the idea that some suicide bomber should martyr himself by killing innocents so he can get 72 virgins in some heaven. but, in reality, i don't see a whole lot of ideological differences between the twisted followers of pat robertson and jerry falwell and the twisted followers of bin laden and the rest of the insane muslim fundies. they both don't like the other and support the killing of innocent civilians on the other side.

[FormerDem06]

29. My handle was a mistake I admit....

I am refusing to vote Democrat in North Carolina until House Speaker Jim Black resigns. The man makes Tom Delay look like a saint. I will still be voting Democrat for national elections though, but I will not vote for a state party that makes DINOs look hyper liberal.

And that is what we have in North Carolina now, the Democrats are buying Republicans over to their party, and have been bought off by big business lobby.

It's sickening.

[Gato Moteado]

47. sorry to hear about the political situation in NC

...i hope you can help make a difference. it's a struggle, particularly in the south right now. the dems in the south feel they need to look more like repukes in order to win. after 5.5 years of bushco i'm surprised that's still the case.

[Harry Monroe]

38. Bravo!!!

My thoughts exactly!!!! Well said!!!!

[xchrom]

30. you should really try reading the koran sometime and expanding

your muslim acquaintances.

you've uttered some very bigoted and offensive statements -- and i suggest you try learning.

[FormerDem06]

41. I have read the Qu'ran from cover to cover as well

as many of the Hadiths.

I have memorized the al-Fatiha for several of my classes on Islam in college, and I have lived in both Lebanon and Morroco in two seperate arabic immersion programs during college.

I don't believe that ALL Islamic folks are bad, as I do have a few friends who are muslim americans and very decent and caring folks. But I do believe that there is a wing of Islam that has corrupted the text of the Qu'ran and the Hadiths further than even I thought possible.

Besides how can one deny this to someone who doesn't think they can live a good enough life to get into heaven?:

"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyah to Sana'a ."

So it isn't the case that only martyrs get the virgins, but the only way to get the virgins is to get to heaven, and Qu'ran is quite specific that the only way to be certain of getting to heaven is to die in Jihad

Makes life seem less worthy of living if you have that waiting for you now doesn't it?

========================================================================================
<5.18> And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

<5.32> For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

<5.33> The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

<9.5> : So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters
wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in
wait for them in every ambush,then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay
the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;surely Allah is Forgiving,
Merciful.

<9.29> : Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor
do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay
the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of
subjection.

<9.30>: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the
Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! From the ΠHadithΠ, a body of
traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu
Hurayah) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not
come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that
Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say,
O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the
Jews.
=========================================================================================

Even the Tafsir al Imamayn al-Jalalayn,by Jalal al-Din al Mahalli and Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (a great read I must add) identifies Jews as hated because they knew the truth and turned away and Christians as misguided because they did not know the truth and all are in need of conversion.


It truly does provide a framework for the mess we have going on today now doesn't it?

[xchrom]

45. none of what you qoute is any different than radical texts that are found

in the bible -- like everything else -- these are metaphors and allegories.

even in statements here -- you at best condesending --''as I do have a few friends who are muslim americans and very decent and caring folks.''

you understand these people out of context -- people who were ravaged by the ottoman empire then france and england -- people who were deprived of the ''priveledge'' of self determination.

and only a bigot would believe that those statements in the koran provide the framework for what we are going through now.

these are multidimensional people -- with goals for their children just like ours.

[FormerDem06]

46. I have no doubt that these folks are multi-dimensional

And you don't know me, so you are at best, making far reaching statements about me as well.

================================================================================
in the bible -- like everything else -- these are metaphors and allegories.
================================================================================
As they are supposed to be, but when a group starts taking them as literal, well then we have a problem now don't we?


================================================================================
and only a bigot would believe that those statements in the koran provide the framework for what we are going through now.
================================================================================

I guess that my point was not framed well enough to come across. Fundamentalist Islamic groups who thrive on teaching hate, use those verses that I quoated as the framework for their position. I was in no way implicating the average person who may have a legtimate beef with the US or Israel because of things they have done.

My best friend from college lives in Lebanon. His youngest brother went to Oman for school (to learn a trade supposedly). He came back a completely different person, he had grown a beard, reverted to traditional dress, and cursed at me through the phone for being in America and an American (that was two years ago).

As best as I can tell, something disturbing happened to him while he was there. He screams at his family for dressing in a western style, watching TV, etc. etc. and talks about the day that Islam will be the sole religion in the world, and the Infidels will be wiped from the face of the earth. He no longer has a social life, and spends most of the day in his room. His family is quite privileged and he has not been oppressed in any way as a citizen of Lebanon.

The sad thing is, there are schools like that all over the middle east and hundreds of kids graduating from them each and every year.

=================================================================================
you understand these people out of context -- people who were ravaged by the ottoman empire then france and england -- people who were deprived of the ''priveledge'' of self determination.
==================================================================================

And now most are deprived of the 'privelege' of self determination by their own governments (Syria, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Jordan, etc. etc.). I really am not trying to paint a black and white picture here. It's a very large block of gray, but my point is valid, when it comes to these extremist groups.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

80. well since not every one who reads the same text has the same reaction

there must be different ways to read those texts.

but that would be for people who can both read and who have a higher level of comprehension skills than the eighth grade.

that would obviously exclude you. there's your break.

[NMMNG]

82. If you'd really read the Koran

You'd know there is nothing in it about "72 virgins", particularly as a reward for being a martyr.

Furthermore those who kill innocents are extremely unlikely to get into heaven, as doing so is forbidden.



So the BS about being a martyr to gain special favor in the eyes of Allah and win 72 virgins is just a stereotypical tale people pass around. It has no basis whatsoever in the Koran.

[FormerDem06]

95. The 72 virgins and 80,000 servants are written in a Hadith

Best Source I could find in a few minutes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html


snip
====================================================
In a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah , chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah to Sana'a '."


And also mentioned in the Qu'ran:


Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."
=====================================================

The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one will marry seventy houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."

Iteresting to say the least, and makes me wonder why a female would ever want to become a matyr, it doesn't sound like she gets very much reward from this context.

[NMMNG]

96. I know they're in a Hadith, but they're not in the Koran

And they are not specified strictly for martyrs but for everybody (male and female) who gets into heaven. Furthermore, terrorists who kill innocents are considered very sinful and may not be allowed into heaven by Allah. So much for the stereotype of being a terrorist to guarantee your 72 virgins.






The "72 virgins" idea is probably the most overblown idea that people seem to remember about Islam. It's turning into a real stereotype. Forget the doctrines of monotheism and tolerance, it seems all people want to hear about is the virgins. There's a lot more to Paradise than just sex and physical pleasure, you know.

<snip>

To start off, you need to understand what the rewards in Jannah (Paradise) are. The Quran says that those who do get into Paradise will be rewarded with blessings that eclipse anything on earth; unlimited food of your choice, riches, and wishes come true. Things considered sinful on Earth such as wine will be allowed, and people will be able to eat and drink all they want and not get full or hungover or sick. People will be reunited with their friends and relatives, we will all be made young again, and there will be no anger or pain. Everyone will be given palaces to live in, and clothing fit for royalty, with luxurious couches and thrones for everyone. There will be rivers of the purest water, milk, wine, and honey, all of which are better than any you will find on earth. Those who get to the highest part of Paradise, Jannah al-Firdaus, will also be able to see Allah with their own eyes. So, in a sense, Heaven is a paradise filled with pleasures. You need to imagine the context of when this idea of Paradise was revealed to the people; of the extremely stark and difficult life of ancient Bedouin Arabia. Something as simple as the constant flow of water in a stream was considered miraculous, so it would be natural to imagine heaven depicted this way, flowing with streams of water under the shade of huge trees. (Well what did you expect Paradise to be? Clouds, wings, and harps?) Also, the believers who make it into Paradise, male and female, are promised beautiful companions, known as "Houris" in Arabic.

<snip>


There is no direct evidence in the Qur'an to support there being 70 or 72 for each person. The numerical value of 70 is derived from a Quranic commentary by Quranic scholar Ibn Kathir. The number 72 comes from a hadith that says "'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from to .'"

Do Muslims believe it literally? Are they required to? This particular Hadith has technical weaknesses in its chain of transmitters and is therefore not considered 100% authenticly faultless, though it is listed in an authoritative collection. As a result, Muslims are not required to believe in it, though many inevitably do (but an even more respectable Hadith with virtually the same message can be found in a separate hadith collection). Most muslims believe that they will experience incredible physical pleasures when they enter heaven, and that you will be happier in heaven than you could possibly be in this life. Some say that the houris are a metaphor for the ineffable joys of the afterlife. "Ineffable" is the perfect word to describe it, since Allah promises rewards beyond imagination, meaning you can't even guess what reward lies ahead since there is no equal on Earth. Ergo, if you can imagine the greatest, richest, best thing in this life, then what will actually be there will be even better.

So, to answer the question "Do terrorists get 72 virgins in Paradise?" Anyone who gets into Heaven will get the servants, it's not specific to martyrs or the shaheeds. The more important question is, who is privileged to enter heaven according to Islam? That's a topic for another node.(Hint: Islam is unambiguous on the issue of suicide and hurting innocent people; they're Completely sinful) In case it's not clear to anyone, Terrorists who hurt innocent people are sinning, so it's up to Allah if they'll go to Paradise or not. You see, bad deeds aren't rewarded, only punished.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=72%20Virgins%20in%20Paradise

[Harry Monroe]

31. My parallel...

...between the two IS the deaths of innocents. I don't believe in the rapture or the theory of virgins waiting for you in heaven, however the "rapture" crowd condones the killing of innocents to further the day when their "reward" comes Basically, I am an agnostic and believe that if there is a God, he has given all humans the gift of "free will" to determine their own fates. We are choosing ourselves to destroy this planet; I don't believe at all that this is preordained, since we have this "free will" to make intelligent choices. Unfortunately, as the only species on this planet with the capability of free will and rational thought, our choices have been much less than intelligent. So, the "rapture" crowd also has free will and chooses to believe a "theory" from the Bible instead of using this "free will" to make the more intelligent choice to work toward peace.

[Harry Monroe]

33. Another parallel...

...is that you get your "reward" in the afterlife. I should have mentioned this one first since it is the simplest parallel to conclude from the two sets of beliefs; it is staring one right in the face.

[JuniperLea]

34. Are you serious?

Ask Pat Robertson who he wants to bomb!

I went to church with my fundie aunt and the preacher led a prayer in which he asked God to guide George W. Bush in his mission... and he further prayed that God would enlighten the peace protesters so they would see how they are supporting the terrorists!

At the pot luck lunch that followed, I heard so many racist comments I was sick!

[FormerDem06]

43. I guess I haven't been exposed to enough crazy right wingers...

My parents go to a Southern Baptist Church in Monroe NC, and the prayer on Sunday there was to guide the President and other leaders to make the right decisions. The bible does say to respect your leaders because they serve by the grace of God, meaning God could take them out if he felt that he needed too. It doesn't say you have to agree with them or their actions though.

That service really had nothing to do with any sort of holy "mission" or anything like that.

I think the mistake here, is lumping the whole lot of us Christians in with a few wacko churches out there who are the way they are due to ignorance and a lack of education. It's like saying all progressives are anarchists, and we know that's not true.

But I could be wrong.

[Harry Monroe]

48. ..."the prayer on Sunday there was to guide the President and other...

...leaders to make the right decisions."

Well, their prayers don't seem to be working for this so-called "born again" Christian in the White House. Perhaps God sees right through Bush's charade and sees him for the phony he is?? He's about as "Christian" as much as I am the President!!!!

Respect your leaders?? First they have to be deserving of respect. I don't claim to know the Bible front and back; the only time I ever studied it was when I was in Catholic grade school. Having been a lapsed Catholic for half of my life, I don't remember much about what it says, except for the 10 commandment parts and such. I'll chance hell and ignore the "respect your leaders" part of the Bible, and make my own judgements about what leaders are deserving of my respect, thank you very much. Bush utterly fails my personal test of which leaders to respect.

[Harry Monroe]

52. "...they serve by the grace of God, meaning God could take them...

...out if he had to"...

Leaders don't serve by the "grace of God", they serve by the grace of the voters who put them there and the citizens they serve. And "God could take them out if he had to"?? If God is displeased with a leader then he "takes him out"?? I assume you mean He kills them?? Or in the Christian parlance, "smites" them???? Let me get this straight, God is a hitman?? Oh, now I've got it!! And I was always taught that the citizens who put the leader in office could also "take him out" by the process of impeachment or recall. (Although I don't see impeachment anytime soon for the Idiot in Chief, unless the Democrats manage to take back Congress in November. And I do pray to God that that will happen!!!!)

By your pretzel logic, an incompetant and dishonest and deceitful leader such as Bush should have been taken out by God a long time ago!!!!

[FormerDem06]

57. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said....

I meant that the bible teaches the following, and well churches are going to follow it:

=============================================================================================================
Romans 13:1-7 states: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."
=============================================================================================================

Again, I was not advocating it, just saying that in my parent's church on Sunday morning, that the pray is that our leaders make the correct decisions because of the above passage, and they do take it pretty much literally (and did when the last president was in office as well).

[AntiFascist]

61. I guess the Colonies should still be ruled by England then....

according to Romans 13:1-7.

[FormerDem06]

62. I had this same argument with my dad a few weeks back....

His answer was as follows:

Acts 5:27-29. "Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 'We gave you strict orders not to teach in this Name,' he said. 'Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood.' Peter and the other apostles replied: 'WE must obey God rather than men'!"

So, by that logic, you obey the laws of the land until they supercede the laws of God, and then the laws of God take precedence. Therefore, since the Anglican church and the King were being oppressive, the colonies had every right to seek self governance.

The logic is a bit circular, I'd agree.

[AntiFascist]

63. Thank you! I was secretly hoping there might be another scripture...

to explain the American Revolution. Now the bible-thumpers have biblical precedence for overthrowing the Bush Administration! (Um, of course I mean through impeachment)

[Harry Monroe]

68. Romans 13: 1-7 in a nutshell

"Shut the fuck up and accept Bush as your leader for he is ordained by God!!"

Now I completely understand where Bush gets the idea that he was chosen by God. FormerDem06, don't take everything you read literally, even the Bible. If God has already established authority, then why even let human nature come into play by holding elections and possibly electing some idiot (as happened in 2000 and 2004) that we STILL have to follow. If our leaders are elected (or appointed as in 2000) by fallable humans, then where does God's will and authority come into play in this. Would God leave the selection of his divine leaders up to imperfect and fallable leaders (and by this logic, up to pure chance)?? I think not.

I'm glad to hear that you are not advocating it; there's hope for you yet. Try growing a brain stem and thinking rationally instead of literally believing everything in the Bible as dogma; that you are not advocating it is a small step in that direction.

[Harry Monroe]

69. Meant to say, "...selection of his divine leaders up to imperfect...

...and fallable humans. My bad

[sendero]

75. "Christians" ignored that ..

... admonition in its entirety when Bill Clinton was in office. In fact, that's the problem with religion, 90% of its professed believers ignore 90% of the bible.

Jesus talks about abortion, never. Talks about gays, never. Talks about greed and the evil of money - continually and yet look at Christian culture in this country. It is about NOTHING BUT MONEY.

No, I don't respect anyone I don't want to and I'm not stupid enough to believe that just because someone claims to be this or that - that they in fact are.

[Harry Monroe]

53. Your handle says it all...

...FormerDem06. Who are you fooling?? You're a Reupblican in sheep's clothing lurking and posting here.

"I guess I haven't been exposed to enough crazy right wingers..."

By your posts and crazy logic, sounds like you've been exposed to more than enough "crazy right wingers".

[FormerDem06]

58. I guess I'm going to have to change my handle as I state above...

For those who take the time to read up. But in order to make it extremely simple for you, let's post it again right here shall we:

==============================================

I am refusing to vote Democrat in North Carolina until House Speaker Jim Black resigns. The man makes Tom Delay look like a saint. I will still be voting Democrat for national elections though, but I will not vote for a state party that makes DINOs look hyper liberal.

And that is what we have in North Carolina now, the Democrats are buying Republicans over to their party, and have been bought off by big business lobby.

It's sickening.

===============================================

I don't like the president at all. I am for a woman's right to choose, universal healthcare, and workers rights to Unionize (which we don't have here in NC either thank you). I come from a very poor family whose parents are a breath away from public assistance as we speak (if I weren't helping them out).

The Republican Party has done nothing for me, and never will. I do not want to be associated with them.

But I will not apologize for the fact that I am religious (although not conservatively so) and really hate to see these blanket statements that I always do filled with hate towards Christians.

Give me a break.

[Harry Monroe]

66. I do apologize....

...I do not hate Christians, I don't like hypocrisy. Big difference, in my view. I do not hate the fact that the religious right is Christian (or claim to be), but their utter hypocrisy, which should now be obvious. WWJD?? I believe he would be for peace, clothing and feeding the poor and for social justice. He would be a liberal in today's world. Ironic, isn't it that those who so feverently embrace him, ignore all that he stood for. It's hypocrisy that I cannot abide; which makes me want to puke everytime I hear Bush described as a Christian. He is the farthest thing from it.

[Harry Monroe]

37. And to draw a distinction between the two beliefs..

The "reward" of the virgins in heaven requires the radical Islamic fanatic to be active and participate to claim his "reward" (suicide bombing), while the Christian fanatic of the Rapture reward of heaven requires nothing more than the belief in this "reward" and praying for the hastening of the day when the Apocalypse comes. They welcome this fateful day with open arms; why do anything to prevent it?? Either belief takes innocent humans with them.

Any "god" who would visit death and destruction willingly and actively upon us is not a God I believe in. And if Jesus walked this earth today; he would be completely unrecoginazable to the Radical Christian Right; he'd be derided on Faux news as an unpatriotic "liberal".

[FormerDem06]

44. I agree 100%

he would be completely unrecognizable to the Radical Christian Right; he'd be derided on Faux news as an unpatriotic "liberal".
==============================================================================

I think some progressives (or liberals) would reject him too though because he'd probably kind of have a problem with the abortion thing (note I'm not against a woman's right to choose, so don't interpret that statement to mean anything else other than what it is, a belief that Jesus would have a problem with it). He did say render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's.

Don't think he'd be too politically motivated at all to be honest. Of course if you don't believe in him or God, this whole argument becomes moot.

[Tsiyu]

55. Everything you say about Muslims above

Can be said about radical Christians.

You see, you are trying to paint a picture of a bloodthirsty, violent faith, and that is what Fundamentalist Christianity has become.

Do the Rightwing Christians not cheer on war?

Do they not judge me ( as you claim the Koran has judged Jews and Christians) as 'unworthy" because I don't believe in their god? Do they not tell me that I, as a woman, must submit to their "manly morality" ( :rofl: ) as I am merely a woman?

Do they not feed the frenzy of hatred of gay people by blaming them for all manner of problems ( Fred Phelps, anybody? )?

You win no argument here, if your intent is to prove that the notion of anxiously awaiting the Rapture with joy is any different than those who with joy blow themselves up for 72 virgins.

In the first case, we have freaks actually cheering on the death and destruction in the ME right now, hoping Damascus is destroyed, praying for destruction of a holy temple in Israel. These freaks most certainly ARE condoning innocent blood shed for their own sense of eternal life. These freaks would have killed Jesus as a baby to get their salvation as soon as possible.

In the latter case, you have freaks who think only of themselves as well. Perhaps the difference to me is that many of the Muslims live in hideous conditions and feel there is no way out.

Many of the caucasian Fundy Rapture addicts don't have terrible lives. They just want to have it better than anyone else the same way they had it in Real Life On Earth.

[Canadian Socialist]

59. I beg to differ with your last paragraph

I have been a christian for 20 years and nowhere in my faith does it advocate any of that. Not even in the wackiest of the "right wing" and conservative churches are you going to find anyone openly advocating the killing of others.

This article will explain why:
http://www.alternet.org/story/40318/

[FormerDem06]

60. Okay there is a first time for everything....

That is one messed up dude who is so far from being a Christian it is truly scary.

[Tsiyu]

64. please stop acting as if you don't know these people exist

:eyes:

If you have travelled the world, as you say, surely you know there are bloodthirsty radical Christans. Did christians not go on any crusades in your history books, either?

You do yourself no favor to play dumb here.

Just a suggestion.

[FormerDem06]

81. Thanks for the suggestion...

I had honestly not heard of that particular guy in the article you posted though and that's what my post was about.

Throughout history, Christians and Muslims have fought and conquered the world times over, I am not arguing that. The original point of this argument was that the Christian Rapture was the same as suicide bombing innocent people for matyrdom, 80,000 servants and 72 virgins. I really don't think it's the same thing.

Besides, Islam has it's own version of the end times where a guy comes out of a well with Jesus, and he takes Jesus to Mecca and teaches him how to pray, and then all Christians convert to Islam and the world is happy. But in order to get the guy out of the well, there has to be a "time of great turmoil". The President of Iran keeps saying he wants to be the guy who causes that turmoil and prepares the way for their savior.

Interesting.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FormerDem06]

83. Anger management, you should try it....

How in the heck is the Southern Poverty Law Center supposed to be anti-Christian? They monitor hate groups of all kinds and they do some darn good work.

As for being from North Carolina? I graduated from one of the most progressive campuses in the state at UNC Greensboro with degrees in History and Religious Studies. I live in Raleigh now and I go to a church where the mission is to plant churches in poor and disadvantaged areas all over the world so that the church can help the poor folks there.

Our church doesn't really have time for politicking I guess, they are always planning mission trips to poor countries and working on finding places to plant churches (we just planted two on the Texas/Mexico border where there is a real need these days).

I guess that's why I don't spend a lot of time thinking about hate. And I will honestly still say that in my experience, I have yet to meet a christian who has advocated killing anyone. I guess they exist, as someone else posted a link to a story about a really sick and twisted person in this thread.

It just goes to show that there are people all over the world who claim to be Christians and you can see right through them.

BTW, how do you like the special NC brand of "progressivism"? They all look like Republicans to me (especially house speaker Black).

[Jamastiene]

84. That's funny. Earlier you said you lived in Monroe, NC.

Which is it exactly?

The anger comes from years of dealing with the doubletalk and the hatred. I won't stop being angry at hatred that has been spewed at me.

As for planting churches in poor neighborhoods, that money would be better spent actually helping the poor people individually. The cost of buying land and building a church could keep many families from going hungry and losing their homes. I'm not much into preying on the poor. I live in one of the most impoverished areas on NC with hundreds of churches that do nothing but collect money and buy more land to build more churches. The poor continue to get poorer.

[FormerDem06]

86. No I said

at My Parent's Church in Monroe NC.........

Which is where I grew up....Just outside of Charlotte.

Grew up in Monroe, went to school in Greensboro, lived in Cashiers (mountains near Cherokee) for a while and now I'm in Raleigh and have been for the past 7 years.

[Joe Bacon]

15. but Glenn Beck says THE GREAT FLOAT OFF will be on 8/22!

Ed Schultz has been goofing on Beck about this, but on his 8/9 show, ol Glen said 8/22 is the day!

Get ready, fellow DUers for some INCREDIBLE BARGAINS on 8/23!

[Philosoraptor]

19. FLOAT OFF Rapture boy!

I love it.

[JuniperLea]

35. If it were true, and those idiots found out...

God would change the date!


No man knows the day or hour...


They can't even keep their own dogma straight.

[Harry Monroe]

54. Damn!!!

I've got NFL tickets for the Saints/Colts in Jackson MS on 8/26. And we're gonna be "raptured" on 8/22? There go my plans; wonder if I can get my money back for the tickets now. Maybe Satan or the four horsemen can buy them from me.

[Harry Monroe]

56. But being a Saints fan...

...may put me in good stead with the man upstairs when we all (well not all of us) get "Raptured"?? BTW, if I don't go to heaven for just trying to live a good life and being a good person, then its all BULLSHIT!!!!!!

[LTR]

74. Reggie Bush is going to be a monster this year

He'll make everyone forget how many picks were wasted on Ricky.

[Hubert Flottz]

18. I wonder if they'll have to stand in line for hours before they fly?

Can they take their wallets and PB and J sammiches?

[Philosoraptor]

20. It's my understanding that there's no waiting.

and in heaven you don't need no money. and sorry, no sammiches, in heaven you don't need no food .

[Hubert Flottz]

21. KKKandy KKKrawly will need a LONG runway to take off on...

And Pat Robertson won't go if he can't take his loot! If there ain't any Pizza and beerz, count me out!

[TheFriedPiper]

22. I just hope a lot of those idiots DID quit their jobs, etc

Stupidity should be painful, but it is often instead rewarded in this country.

[cynatnite]

23. Look at what this crazy loon posted...

Seems there is a connection between people waiting and watching for our LORD's return, and people who watch Fox....has anyone explored this?

:crazy:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=271376

[Philosoraptor]

25. hhhhmmmm, a connection... hhhmmm

hilarious

[sinkingfeeling]

32. And here's one version of what heaven will be like....

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=270758

Just a fanciful thought...

How cool would it be to have an 'average' day in heaven include, say, a lecture by Paul on his Mars hill sermon, complete with our traveling to the exact time and place and seeing it for ourselves...

Then perhaps a lunch of fruit from the Tree of Life and a little Living Water...

Then maybe a lively discussion between Paul and James about the true perfect harmony between the book of Romans & the book of James?

Then The Angelic Choir could present a concert, singing songs of praise that have never been heard on earth before?

Then, say, the evening winds down with Christ simply wrapping us in his arms as we love and praise Him...

Ahhhhhh.......... maranatha!

[guinivere]

70. That sounds a bit tedious. nt

[VOX]

71. I made it to heaven and all I got was a lousy eternity in Sunday School!

:cry:

[LTR]

73. I'll see your crazy loon and present THIS one

Nicole041404
Citizen Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Niceville Florida

Fox news is the only Christian friendly news station :thumbsup:

:spray:

:rofl:

[DemoTex]

24. The Evangelicals' porn addiction: D.I.Y. Rapture?

A new poll released this week by ChristianNet.com -- which bills itself as "the world's most-visited Christian website" -- in conjunction with Second Grace Ministries shows that those born-again, Evangelical Christians are addicted to porn.

"The poll results indicate that 50% of all Christian men and 20% of all Christian women are addicted to pornography," said Clay Jones, funder and President of Second Glance Ministries. Moreover, he said " 60% of the women who answered the survey admitted to having significant struggles with lust; 40% admitted to being involved in sexual sin in the past year; and 20% of the church-going female participants struggle with looking at pornography on an ongoing basis."

And, added ChristianNet's president, Bill Cooper, "We directed over 100,000 inquiries to Second Glance Ministries in one year...We are seeing an escalation to the problem both men and women who regularly attend church."

Christian right Evangelicals are, of course, always in the forefront of censorship crusades (see, for example, my L.A. Weekly article "The New Blacklist: How Corporate America is Bowing to Anti-Gay Christian Boycotts") But this new poll suggests that it's time to call the Christers' "culture wars" the "hypocrisy wars." (my emphasis .. more comments at link)

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/08/new_poll_shows_.html

Yawn. More hypocrisy from God's favorite hypocrites. What would Betty Bowers say?

[acmejack]

27. They went nuts when Carter admitted to lust!

Could it be the dreaded double standard?

Guess they are all real disappointed our entrails weren't ripped from our perfidious bodies while they were transported in their naked glory? to heaven...

[TlalocW]

36. Joke: So the end of the world comes

And large groups of people of all religions go to Heaven and arrive at the Pearly Gates. Angels are working overtime to give everyone the 10 cent tour of Paradise, but before each group is admitted, the angels go through the crowd and pick out various people and lead them off before everyone else. As these smaller groups leave, many members turn back and smirk at the groups of people they came out of. No one knows what to make of this.

As soon as the smaller groups are taken care of, the rest of the people are taken by their angel tour guides through Heaven and are shown all the various wonders - the room where all the harps are, the halo polishing places, various celebrities who are there, etc. They come to one magnificient hall, and the angel tour guide tells them all sternly, "We're going to go in here, but no one may talk! Not even a whisper! You must tip-toe and try to make as little noise as possible!" Everyone wonders, "What could this hall be? Is this where God resides, and we must not disturb Him?" Their minds race as they're taken through the hall but not allowed to look into any of the rooms or passageways that lead off of the main structure.

When their tour is done, the angel asks if there are any questions. After some shuffling and uncomfortable silence, one brave soul (literally) asks, "What was that one place where we had to be really quiet? Was that God's house?"

"Oh, no," says the angel, smiling. "That's where we put all our Baptists. They think they're the only ones here."

TlalocW

[leesa]

39. Nah. They just rationalize and re-set the clock. My 92 year old Dad

told me a story last night about his brother and sister-in-law being with them in a cabin about 20 years ago and the Rapture was supposed to occur that night. His brother was all prepared. Next morning my Dad said, "well, we're still here. Suppose we missed the bus?" His brother just mumbled something about having to re-calculate dates.

[earth mom]

40. Honestly? I don't give a damn about them and how they feel!

Have they given a damn about what they've done to this country with their fear mongering, and ugly judgemental attitudes about everyone but themselves?! They belong in Hell, not Heaven because I don't see anything "Christian" about them! :grr:

[RagAss]

87. uuhhh...They are in Hell.....just look at them.. ..just listen to them....

[leftofthedial]

42. I think the disappointment is even greater for the rest of us

who now must come to grips with the enormous mental health problem we have in the world.

[squarepants]

49. I gotta say I kind of

feel bad for them, in a way. Only in a way, though. I mean, it's kind of bad to be told something like that (rapture) and you're sitting there waiting for it to happen, and it doesn't. The other part of me, though, says if one is going to walk around saying the bible is inerrant (like most of them do) then they ought to be paying attention to what it says. If they did, they'd know EXACTLY what it said and they wouldn't be so upset when it doesn't happen when they think it will. As someone said earlier, it does say in the bible that no man knows the day or hour, and not only that, but it also says 144,000 from the 12 tribes of israel would be raptured, not millions of people walking around saying their christian. The rest of the people won't see Jesus until AFTER (not before or during) the tribulation, and they will NOT reign in heaven, as it states there will be a new heaven and a new earth and Jesus will have his reign on earth along with everyone else that made the cut. What really pisses me off with these people is the fact that some of them are so smug about rapture. They advocate killing of innocent people and taking over other nations just so THEY can be rescued, and they really think Jesus/God approves of that attitude. NOt to mention some of them love to talk about the tribulation and what will happen to "unsaved" people, while they think their going to be yucking it up in heaven untouched. LOL. Yep, can't wait to point and laugh when they find themselves right down here with the rest of us. I'm not being down on all christians, only the ones who are so smug because they think they're better. I believe in God, myself, but I don't believe in organized religion because of people like this.

[porphyrian]

51. There was a UK article someone here linked to saying it will be Aug. 22...

...which also happens to be the day my divorce is finalized in court. I hope it doesn't happen until after everything's finalized.

[Tsiyu]

65. seriously

You'll need to go out for a drink and all the bartenders may be raptured!

[porphyrian]

67. Well, that would just mean unattended bars...

...and what's a little liquor theft amongst the left behind?

[Tsiyu]

72. Too true

and preliminary congrats for getting those papers. Don't know how you're feeling about it all, but I was relieved when things were final.

And then I :beer: and hoped for better luck next time until now I say "Screw the next time! there won't BE a next time!"

:thumbsup:

[porphyrian]

76. I'm much better now than I was when this started, thanks.

And now I'm much closer to your current position than I've ever been. ;)

[Tsiyu]

77. Raptured into singlehood!

Divorce will do that to you....:P

[Warren DeMontague]

85. I hope they didn't chop their own nuts off first, like the comet cult did.

Wow. Talk about your "whoops!" moment.

[VOX]

90. Isn't this the truth? They're a death cult!

So utterly obsessed with their pie-in-the-sky delusions that they don't care about the destruction going on in the, um, **reality-based** world. :grr:

[Cobalt-60]

92. actually

They seem to be reaching for our jewels.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. That's more of a "rupture" moment, if you ask me.

OW!

[PBass]

94. Reminds me of this:

[Cobalt-60]

91. If they're in such a hurry to meet God

I've got a Kool Aid recipe for them.
I'm sure the old boy just can't wait for their arrival.