So, Israel Basically Got Their Ass Kicked (Ha'aretz)

[matcom]

But, but, but, Bush* says it was a great victory!

<snip>

Many Israelis see a strategic defeat
In Israel, critics condemn strategy behind war
By Anne Barnard and Matthew Kalman, Globe Staff and Globe Correspondent | August 16, 2006

JERUSALEM -- Scathing indictments of the way the Israeli government and its military have conducted the longest war in the nation's history filled the country's newspapers and airwaves yesterday, as Israelis began to feel safe enough to return to their national pastime of blistering political debate.

Israeli analysts across the political spectrum branded the war against Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon ``an embarrassing defeat" for a ``semi-rookie government" that should have known the goals it set for itself were ``impossible to achieve."

Ha'aretz, one of Israel's leading daily newspapers, summed up the national mood by presenting readers with an online poll that asked: ``Who should resign?"

A popular nominee was the army's chief of staff, Dan Halutz, who yesterday admitted selling his entire stock portfolio, worth $27,600, in the hours between Hezbollah's initial attack and the first Israeli bombardment of Beirut.

On the second day since July 12 without Hezbollah rocket attacks, many Israelis looked around and declared themselves sorely disappointed with a war that forced a million people to flee their homes in northern Israel and killed 150 Israelis and more than 800 Lebanese. The war inflamed anger across the Muslim world -- without dealing a decisive blow to Hezbollah or bringing home the two Israeli soldiers whose kidnapping by the Lebanese militant group triggered the fighting.

The outrage came from the left and the right.

``We simply blew it," was the headline on a column in left-leaning Ha'aretz by Yoel Marcus, who asked, ``What makes an army -- or its chief of staff, to be exact -- get up one fine morning and persuade a semi-rookie government to launch an all-out war at the drop of a hat because two of our soldiers were kidnapped?"

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/08/16/many_israelis_see_a_strategic_defeat?mode=PF

[KG]

1. this invasion was a major blunder by israel.

and yes, considering what the idf was up against, they got their asses handed to them.

[ERF]

2. They pulled their punches. Never used the types of weapons

that would have allowed them to destroy more weapons and personnel for fear of destroying even more of the human shield behind which Hezbullah was hiding.

A great tactic on the part of Hezbullah.

[matcom]

3. good spin

thanks for playing

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Would you like to back up you statements

with a few facts or do you just make it up has you go along?

[ERF]

7. No. I can't, I was wrong. I obviously misread or misunderstood

what I thought I read. They did make use of cluster bombs and other anti-personell munitions.

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. Well at least you're starting to open your eyes

Welcome to the brave new world where there are no good guys.

[Solo_in_MD]

40. Quite limited use

They make their own in country, its not like they did not have an adequate supply

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Megaphone much?

But the official megaphone story these days is that Olmert and the Centrist Softies sabotaged the IDF by refusing to allow it to carry out the Brilliant Maneuver That Would Have Destroyed Hezbollah by racing to the Litani with a massive force and then it seems exterminating everyone between the river and the Israeli border. Get with the program.

p.s. it is called guerrilla warfare.

[ERF]

8. That wouldn't have worked either. The only way to win

a military victory in this situation is to indiscriminately kill everyone. Thus, a military victory is a political impossibility.

[tocqueville]

13. try negotiation and concessions

it doesn't hurt

[ERF]

17. And appeasement?

[ERF]

18. What do concede or negotiate with a group of people whose

aim is your destruction?

[Popol Vuh]

25. So then you should

understand the Palestinian point of view when they "defend" themselves.

You mentioned "appeasement", something I always hear from conservatives. Let me ask you. Besides considering the word appeasement. Have you ever considered the word "provocative"?

Have you ever opened your eyes to the fact that Israel has people willing to blow themselves up in order to kill a few Israeli citizens and what it must mean in order for such an extraordinary thing to occur? Shit like that certainly doesn't happen in a vacuum. Have you ever "honestly" sat down and examined the circumstances causing these "provocations"?

Are you willing to say that Palestine has a right to exists as equally a sovereign state as Israel does?

[ERF]

42. Of course the Palestinians have a right to their own nation

In addition, I would never say that Israel does not carry a signficant portion of the guilt.

Moreover, the entire Arab world finds itself in the grasp of a death cult that is perverting Islam and the conflict with the Palestinians, combined with the repressive Arab/Persian regimes are the two main causes.

That much said, in my experience, I do remember that all of the wars of the 20th century between Israel and its neighbours were not started by Israel (except maybe 1982 occupation of Lebanon, but that is similar to this situation).

What I also do not recall is the attempt ever by the Palestinians to peacefully try and win their state via a Gandhi-like approach. This is likely because the militant groups still seek Israel's total destruction.

Can you think of a similar situtation either current or past in which a negotiated peace was achieved despite the fact that the stated aims of one side is the total annhilation of the other?

[ERF]

52. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention

I only use the word appeasement to razz the Frenchman. I would do it even if he agreed with everything I said 100%.

Lot's of French friends, they love it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. There is a difference

between recognizing Israel has a state and actually wanting to kill Jews.

The Arabs are not advocating killing every Jew in the world. They do not want to recognize the country of Israel. Just like the US refuses to recognize Cuba or North Korea.

However, if you want to know who does want to kill all the Jews, it's the rapture ready Bushbots. They are the ones who are joyously awaiting Armageddon. Of course to achieve their goal of the Messiah returning, requires that all Jews either convert or die.

[ERF]

43. So you are saying that it is OK that the Arabs just want

to kill all of the Israelis? As long as it isn't all Jews, you are willing to sacrifice (another) 6 million.

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. Not at all

Recognizing a country and/or government is different then wanting to commit genocide.

[ERF]

51. Fair enough, but, in fact, the platforms of Hezbullah and

Hamas seek the destruction of Israel. Besides, since these entities aren't governments themselves their refusal to recognize Israel as a nation isn't relevant unless they are armed and attacking it - which they are.

So I come back to my original question which is what do you concede and how do you negotiate with an adversary whose aim is your total destruction?

[Ms. Clio]

67. so why do you conflate "all Arabs" with those two groups?

as you did above?

[ERF]

78. I didn't write all Arabs. Perhaps I should have written the

majority of Arabs, but not necessarily their non-representative governments.

[KurtNYC]

53. If only that were true

Here is what Iran's President (finacier of Hezbollah) had to say about Israel and the Jewish people:

As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.
...
They (Jews) have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets.

And Nasrallah makes it even clearer:

If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

And for those Jews who do not come to Israel:

Martyrdom operations - suicide bombings - should be exported outside Palestine. I encourage Palestinians to take suicide bombings worldwide. Don't be shy about it. (12/6/2002)

What part of these genocidal statements is abiguous?

[ERF]

55. You aren't responding to me right? I think you may have

hit respond to the wrong post, because what you wrote fully agrees with everything I have written.

[KurtNYC]

59. Nope - responded to #49

And I remain surprised at the failure of many here to condemn BOTH sides of this conflict.

[Ms. Clio]

66. But it's not true that "the Arabs just want to kill all of the Israelis"

The Saudis put forward a peace plan that would recognize the right of Israel to exist a couple of years ago.

It's those exaggerations that distort these discussions.

[ERF]

77. I didn't write "all of the Arabs".

The groups of people with whom Israel is exchanging gunfire are the Arabs who want to destroy Israel.

I would be willing to bet you if the groups who want Israel destroyed were to be disarmed and disbanded and the Arab and Palestinian leaders could be trusted not to attack Israel, you would get the 1967 borders in a heartbeat.

But what you want get is the "right of return" except in token symbolism and I find it almost impossible to believe Israel will ever give up Jerusalem.

So you have two intractable problems (disarming and Jerusalem) and one that whose enactment would effectively mean the destruction of Israel as we now know it: i.e. a Jewish-majority state.

[ktlyon]

15. The lesson from all this should be that destroying a lot of stuff

doesn't get you a win. It just makes you a murderer.

[leftchick]

22. give me a break

are you serious? Israel murdered over 1000 innocent people and in places that Hezbollah was no where near. Not to mention Lebanon's infrastructure that was blown to kingdom come. In terms of win lose, Israel and the US lost bigtime.

:eyes:

[madrchsod]

23. what would they use....nukes?

they got their asses kicked by the latest russian anti-tank missle the idf didn`t know about. the missle went right thru the reactive armour. that`s why they "withdrew"...well they are not on their side of the fence yet...

[Solo_in_MD]

41. The IDF did try a limited war concept, based heavily on aviation

It clearly did not give the the results they wanted.

[The Stranger]

60. Do you really believe what you post?

It is mind-boggling. The article is about re-evaluating a mistake, but your post seems to want to sweep it under the carpet and harbinger endless more mistakes for the future.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Sure.

If only the Israelis hadn't been so recalcitrant to bomb Hanoi the whole thing would have been won easily.

[Ms. Clio]

69. yeah, and if only we had nuked Vietnam

we would have won that thing!

[mhatrw]

75. Yep. And we lost Vietnam because we were afraid to turn it into glass.

Right?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. n/t

[jerry611]

20. That is the most dumbest phrase in the book

Hezbollah are not freedom fighters. They are a terrorist organization. And there is a very important difference.

Freedom fighters are people like our founding fathers. Their revolution was launched strictly by politics and economics. They also did not target the British people. Their attacks were directed towards the government of King George III.

Hezbollah breeds an army of suicide bombers whose goals are to inflict mass death among as many innocents as possible to create a sense of fear for their own religious goals.

Don't confuse the two...

[treestar]

26. What is the evidence Hezbollah is an army of suicide bombers?

They seem more like a regular army to me. They made their attacks with military hardware, not suicide missions. The Iranians and Syrians prop them up, it is alleged, so they are more than just a terrorist group.

[lumpy]

72. To some all enemies are 'terrorists', but

you make an excellent point. Hezbollah is a Lebanese fighting force formed in 1982(?) because of the Israeli's continual disatrous attacks against Lebanon. Understandable that Lebanese citizens have had enough of Israel's assault against their country.

[Toots]

29. Do you even know of the things done to loyalists during the war and after?

These were just citizens that gave aid and comfort to the Brittish. They were killed in the most brutal fashion imaginable.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. Beat me to it. nt

[Freedom_from_Chains]

32. I'm not, I think you are as clearly

you express that your perception is the only perception that is valid.

There's another party in town who does the same thing.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

45. "They also did not target the British people"

I didn't notice until later, but you are completely clueless about history also.

[Ms. Clio]

70. yep n/t

[Freedom_from_Chains]

73. Really!, I was neither defending or condemning Hezbollah,

I was simply pointing out that there is more than one way to look at this thing. I have decided that Hezbollah must be sexist though, or there would be a Herzbollah.

[ERF]

46. At least there are some reasonable people around here

who don't feel the perverted need to defend Hezbullah. Since when are progressives lovers of terrorists?

[Ms. Clio]

71. yeah, pointing out facts and flawed logic is "defending terrorists"

Keep digging that grave.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Terrorists don't attack military targets.

They attacked the IDF, making them guerilla fighters. They weren't, at least in this recent conflict, terrorists at all.

As for the American Revolution, we employed terrorists in every sense of the word. The infamous "John the Painter," for example, was commissioned to go to England and burn down various buildings. He was sort of an American Mohammed Atta. He was even supported by patriots such as Benjamin Franklin.

I bet that puts a knot in your knickers.

[Ms. Clio]

68. You don't know much about American history

Try looking up what happened to British loyalists at the hands of American partisans. It wasn't pretty.

And you demonstrate your ignorance, again, when you claim that Hezbollah "breeds suicide bombers." Hezbollah does not use suicide bombings -- it is a militia.

Don't confuse the two.

[lumpy]

74. The US Revolution was exactly

just that. It was a revolution to gain independence from Great Britain who was reluctant to give up territory that they had established on the American continent. Freedon fighters? More like revolutionists who wanted to establish their own country independent from Great Britain. But that is another story.
"Hezbollah breeds an army of suicide bombers whose goals are to inflict mass death among as many innocents as possible to create a sense of fear for their own religious goals". Inflamitory Hogwash.
Can't imagine why Lebanese people might hold resentment toward Israel after being pummeled and invaded time after time and occupied during an 18 year period.... Yes, this is SARCASM.
Israel has a right to survive regardless of what the leaders of some countries claim. If they would just quit eyeing territory that they believe is theirs according to the Old Testamen, then they might have a chance of making friends of their neighbors.

[Justice]

9. How could Israel not get kidnapped soldiers as part of cease fire?

why would they agree to a cease fire and not have the kidnapped soldiers returned to them when the whole reason (well the reason that caused attacks now, although pressure had been building for lots of reasons) they launched the attack was because of the kidnapped soldiers?

[cali]

10. because, as the OP

points out, they were getting their asses kicked.

[ERF]

11. The IDF wasn't losing per se, they just weren't winning.

Which given the disproportionate capacities, is why Hezbullah is saying it won. It won by still existing. The capacities of the IDF were in no way reduced, thus to say they "got their asses kicked" completely misrepresents the situation.

It would be like a featherweight fighting a heavyweight. If the featherweight didn't get knocked out, he could claim to have won, even if he didn't actually hurt the heavyweight.

[papau]

16. the 5.7$ billion cost to Israel (including econ loss) was a "loss" -albeit

the econ/war/infrastructure damage to Lebanon is north of $6.0 billion (including $3 billion of infrastructure destroyed). 300000 fled south in Israel and another 700000 hid in shelters, while 600000 fled north in Lebanon and well north of a million hid.

Everyone lost.

and Hez won the arab side PR battle, moving from terrorist to Resistance.

So after Hez started via killing 300 US under Reagan, we are now the bad guys - so we lost.

[ERF]

19. After that post I get the feeling that you broke out in a ballad

of "War, huh; good God ya'll, what is it good for . . ."

PS Sorry about the punctuation on that above.

[MercutioATC]

50. I'm assuming you've seen the movie "Rocky"...(the first one)

Who "won"?

[ERF]

54. Good analogy. I would say the studio that made the picture

won because they made a ton of money. Stallone also won because he really launched the second major character of what was otherwise a pretty sorry movie career. Name any good Stallone movie other than Rocky and Rambo?

Amazing how much money such a lousy actor can make.

My father went to highschool with him in Philly.

[MercutioATC]

56. I was speaking of the "message" of the movie, but you're correct.

Actually, I haven't liked Stallone as an actor in anything before "Copland". IMO, he really wasn't an actor before that movie.

...but Rocky still "beat" Apollo Creed in "Rocky I"....

[ERF]

57. I thought I did answer by complimenting your analogy.

[MercutioATC]

58. You've been under some fire in this thread...I'm not part of that.

My reply wasn't meant to be agressive. My apologies if it was taken that way.

:)

[tocqueville]

12. the Hizbollah defense is not the only explanation

I just saw an open debate between Israeli soldiers and officers sent by the Israeli TV and the French TV : it's obvious that outdated or lacking equipment, complete radio communication SNAFU, changing objectives all the time among other internal dysfunctionments played a great role. A soldier said that it was a miracle that so few had been killed in his unit.

[jerry611]

21. The military is angry because they think the government used them

They think that the government was using the military to try and score a diplomatic victory against Lebabon, and had no intention of destroying Hezbollah.

[DemonFighterLives]

24. We can debate who won the battle

but dubby is still on track. Syria and Iran are on his list with Israel mopping up.
PNAC has got to be happy with Lebanon softened up and all the roads and bridges destroyed. Halliburton is salivating about the no bid contracts for pretending to fix things up.
:freak:

[warrens]

38. Hezbollah will be doing the repairs

With a few billion from grateful Arab states and the thousands of new members this war earned them.

[DemonFighterLives]

44. Ok

Do you think the repairs will all be made before the next leg of the war on terror?
b*shy is itching to get more war on.

The regime has also mentioned aid to get Lebanon up and running as a democracy. I guess this aid could be construed as reparations or repairs.
:dem:

[paparush]

27. Sheesh..they should try a 3 yr, Brazillion dollar war based on lies..

that's killed a hundred thousand people.

[MisterHowdy]

30. The circle of hate continues harder

All Israel accomplished was angering the arab world.
All those who hate Israel now have some justification to do so.
Israels attack on Lebanon was futile and they should have known that.
It was purely an emotional over-reaction on Israels part.
Their is much hate over there that has been going on for generations. All this conflict did was strengthen those hates.
The circle of hate continues.

[Virginia Dare]

31. I agree with that Mr. Howdy...

and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[MisterHowdy]

33. Thanks

[Philosoraptor]

35. D'ya think they'll hold a grudge?

For a millenia or two?

[warrens]

36. This is why being labeled anti-Israeli or worse pisses me off so much

I'm on the side of THOSE Israelis. I am not on the side of the Likud and the even crazier religious fascists that dominate their government. Those idiots just handed Lebanon to the Hezbollah for eternity; like the guy said on Nightline last night, "We're all Hezbollah, now."

[Jed Dilligan]

37. It's always good news when a vaunted military

is brought to its knees by "rabble." I don't care who the "rabble" are. I don't have to be a Stalinist to appreciate what the Russians did to the Germans in the Great Patriotic War... Nor do I have to support Hezbollah to celebrate the defeat of the IDF death machine. Eventually, we will learn that victory-for-free is a fantasy, that wars worth fighting are worth dying in, period. Never should any power feel they can make war "safely."

[stepnw1f]

39. I Have to Say This

Many here already know how I feel about the Israeli invasion (I was against it, just as I was against the US invading Iraq). After reading the assments of this "war", I have come to the conclusion that I could care less as to who won or lost. Because in truth, both Israelis and Lebanese have taken the greatest toll. NOBODY WON yet EVERYBODY LOST. Let's keep this focus. Peace is not easy, but war never creates peace unless it truly is necessary (WWII).

[Jed Dilligan]

61. WWII created peace?

Huh. I thought it led to the Cold War and the ongoing Middle East conflict.

[stepnw1f]

64. You are Right There

What I meant was, it was a necessary war to stop Hitler and the Nazis from taking over more countries and preventing more genocide by the Nazis.

Peace ultimately is the OPPOSITE of War.

[Jed Dilligan]

65. I think the difference is between

balanced and unbalanced conflicts. With all the military might on one "side" of the conflict, we develop the illusion that a war can be fought without sacrifices or any negative impact at all. We believe in the invincibility of the tanks and planes that incidentally rob our children of food and education and healthcare. When push comes to shove, we lose anyway. I hope that as Vietnams, Iraqs, and Lebanons pile up we can collectively come to our senses and realize that no war should be entered lightly. Hegemony is a head game we play with ourselves, and someone clever and desperate will always figure out how to defeat our war machines and security systems.

[Solo_in_MD]

47. That is a perceptions issue...based on history

As many pundits pointed out that for Israel to win, it would have to crushingly defeat Hezbollah, as they have other Arab opponents. For Hezbollah to win they just had to survive. It was not a massive IDF victory, so we know where that is heading. However there are now new issues because of this.

The Arab nations are feeling some success against Israel for the first time in 40 years and are getting cocky. Syria in particular is feeling its oats. The IDF tried to fight a limited war in Lebanon and was not particularly successful. Arab and Muslim politics are fueled by religious fervor and testosterone. Syria may well get stupid, but the IDF having just finished poorly in the recent scrimmage is looking for some ass to kick (they have a lot of testosterone issues too). Syria also supplied the advanced AT weapons that caused most of the causalities in Lebanon. Assad may feel he has to do something to placate control the Islamic fundie forces in Syria or may feel this is a moment of Israeli weakness he could take advantage of. It would be a mistake. If large scale conflict erupts, the IAF would own the skies within hours and the only recourse Syria would have is SCUDs. The results would be a good field test of the upgraded Patriot batteries, and some serious air strikes in Damascus. The IAF has some excellent EA systems that would would negate the Syrian IADS. Ugliness all the way 'round, but the long term would most likely be Syria looking a lot like Lebanon with extensive cluster munitions thrown in for good measure. Israel would not escape unscathed, but would survive. I doubt Assad's government would. I seriously hope Assad keeps his pants zipped.

Even without a conflict with Syria, the current fracas in Lebanon has very serious importance within Israel, and IMO does not bode well for the short term. The Sabras expected a cakewalk, and while the IDF was militarily successful, since it was not a crushing defeat ala 1967 and 1973 they are seriously unhappy. As Haaretz is already saying, it will be called a defeat. I fully expect the current government under the Kadina party, will not win the elections, and the hawks will take over. Add that to the Sabras smarting about not walking all over Hezbollah and new the found Arab/Muslim attitude, and things are quite a bit worse off than they were before.

[mom cat]

48. Welcome to the wonderful world of overreach. You should have learned

something from watching the US get bogged down in Iraq. I hope that Israel will re think its foreign policy pronto and go back to seeking peace with its neighbors.

[hogwyld]

76. The best thing about all of this

Is since Israel has lost, it's aura of invincibility is gone. It will be forced to negotiate for a Palestinian state, return of the Golan Heights, and a Right of Return for all of the displaced families during the manufacture of israel via the UN. If they get stubborn and refuse the concessions, they can almost count on a very large scale guerilla operation inside israel. IMO

[cali]

79. You're wrong, alas

Israel will now be even less prone to negotiate concerning the Golan Heights. The right of return is absolutely a deal killer for the Israelis, and if there are large scale operations inside Israel, there will be greater misery for all concerned, particularly the Palestinians.

[hogwyld]

80. If Hizbollah can get Israel out of Lebanon

What's to prevent them or another Syrian proxy to have guerilla operations in Golan? If the price of occupation becomes too high, they will give it up eventually.