Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Help me understand this - Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
joe_shmoe Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:02 PM
Original message
Help me understand this - Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon?
Hello,

I'm really trying to research this and find out what's going on. So far the official story is claiming the 2 Israeli soldiers were captured on the Israeli side of the border. Most of the articles I come accross don't even specify which side they were captured on.

Then I find a whole slew of articles such as the ones that follow saying the Israeli soldiers were on the Lebanese side of the border-some say specifically in the town of Aïta Al-Chaab.

Has anyone come across articles saying something similar to the ones below?

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060802/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mide...

http://politics.abovetopsecret.com/thread216339/pg1

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1...

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12674823.htm

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. There were conflicting stories, iirc.
One story claimed that they were captured north of the border during an incursion of Lebanon. A disabled IDF tank, on the outskirts of a Lebanese village, with the soldiers' unit markings was said to be the 'proof'. The Israelis denied this and said that the tank (as they towed it back) was disabled by an IED during a retaliatory/rescue raid. I don't believe the conflicting accounts have ever been resolved.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. As Tahiti said, it is unclear where they were.Websites conflicting stories
Thank you for using "captured" for their designation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. hizballa after their raid
we're quite proud to claim they crossed the border as they tried in the past and succeeded in the past in various attacks for the last 6 years.

furthermore the attack was in the morning...no israeli jeep would make it more than 2 meters past the lebanese border back then as Hizballa has watch towers spaced throughout the border, would have seen them (they make a lot of noise and there are few entry points along the fenced border for mechanized vehicles to enter.

Israeli TV showed the burned out jeeps in the morning.....

hizballa would have taken all the bodies of the soldiers killed had in been in their own terrirtory as they have tried in the past........
_____

the orginal media spin orginiated with a lebanese policeman who witnesed it..except there are no lebanese police in southern lebanon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. According to Bush Hezbollah attacked Israel
"Hezbollah attacked Israel without any knowledge of the (Lebanese) government. Hezbollah attacked Israel. Hezbollah started the crisis, and Hezbollah suffered a defeat in this crisis," the president said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2312414
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/8/14/162406.shtml?s=lh
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, he sure is an unimpeachable source.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. I would say Hezbollah did it as a gesture to Gaza
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:48 PM by Selatius
I think they did it to take pressure off the situation in Gaza, and they pretty much succeeded in swallowing up a large amount of IDF resources in the process. The US had to increase the shipment of bombs and weapons to Israel during the fighting to fill in the void.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. They were doing a military operation there

And got captured. Or since they are Israeli maybe we are supposed to say they were kidnapped?Because they usually just say captured when it is America rendering somebody or when Israel sort of seizes people. CNN international will say captured either way but not the regular one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. when you "capture" someone and demand a ransom...

...then the term is "kidnapped".




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. When someone is in YOUR land and you capture them, it's called taking
prisoners.

The israeli troops had no right to be in Lebanon.

The "ransom" is the request to release all the Lebanese currently being held prisoner by the Israelis.

That sounds like a fair deal.

Instead, the israels got their wish and went ahead with bombing and and attacking lebanon as they've been planning to and attempting to provoke for months.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. No, soldiers are captured, civilians are kidnapped
Whether or not any ransom is involved. And, if you're captured on the wrong side of the border... then tough luck. Those are the risks for illegal military incursions into sovereign nations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. You know this how?
Seems most people, Hizb'allah included, say the soilders were taken from Israel. So why dispute it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. There are already a bunch of links in the thread about it

Do you think it makes any difference?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Some of those links are quite questionable.
Also, some are just re-hashing the same things, most likely taken from the other sites, which is not uncommon.

I think most know that Hizb'allah violated Israel's borders, and things progressed/regressed from there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. But do you think it makes a difference?

I mean no matter where they were, it was an Israeli military operation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. it does make a difference.
The version trying to be peddled here makes Israel the instigator. That is not what happened.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I still don't see what difference it makes

Where exactly they were. It was an Israeli military operation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Simply.
If the attacks took place in Israel, Israel had a right to respond. If the attacks took place because Israel crossed the border, the provocation was Israeli. That is the difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. It still doesn't matter. It was an Israeli military operation

No matter where it took place. And it sure doesn't have anything to do with whatever America has up its sleeve for Israel and Lebanon next.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. You have no real point.
The OP was asking where it took place. It took place in Israel. Several of the sources s/he uses are faulty, at best! Israel was attacked, Israel responded. Hizb'allah is to blame for the Israelis being in Lebanon!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. But that can be Israel's position either way

Because they are backed by America and have more bombs. So they can go conduct military operations wherever they want to, and they do, and it is not a good idea to disagree because America has unconditional support for Israel. That is my point, that it does not matter where they were. Because the war is not over, it has not even started.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. The initial reports were that the soldiers were captured in Lebanon and in
fact, the soldiers who died over several different events were all in Lebanon as well.

The stories changed later to favor the israelis and make them out to be the victims, but I choose to believe the real victims here, the Lebanese.

The Lebanese say they will release the soldiers when their hundreds of people being held prisoner by the israelis are released.

That sounds fair to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. The attack was against Israel.
The attack took place IN Israel! After the morning attack, the Israelis pursued the terrorist group into Lebanon, where they lost more soldiers. All that is happening here is disinformation. Hizb'allah, themselves, announced they had crossed into Israel and taken the soldiers.

"The Lebanese say they will release the soldiers when their hundreds of people being held prisoner by the israelis are released." The Lebanese do not have the soldiers, Hizb'allah does! There are NOT hundreds of Lebanese or Hizb'allah members being held in Israeli prisons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. The israeli soldiers were captured while on a covert operation IN lebanon
according to the initial reports by the lebanese policing agencies and other agencies from around the world. There is no reliable authority representing that the israeli soldiers were captured IN israel. It would make no sense of the Lebanese to sneak into Israel to kill 8 soldiers over a period of a week and capture 2 soldiers. All the events took place IN lebanon.

You don't need to seperate hezbollah from the Lebanese. They are one and the same. The Lebanese clearly support the efforts of hezbollah in both governing their nation and in defending their nation from the ongoing israeli onslaught.

And you better break out your google and take a look at the countless documentations of the lebanese and allied prisoners that israel is holding... you've been misinformed.


I mean no offense, I merely take the side of the true victims here, the lebanese. I merely stand on the side of truth and what's right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. you need to read REAL sources!
Most places are reporting that the incursion took place in Israel!

Hizb'allah and the Lebanese are not one in the same, despite your misinformation and misguided posts.

I can't say if you really care about the real victims, because the truth seems to elude you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. No, you are wrong
They were captured in Lebanon.

Damn! Don't you get tired from all this spinning?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. So is Juan Cole spinning
when he says that H'zbollah crossed the border into Israel? Not that I think it particularly matters one way or the other, but it seems bizarre to me to be so insistent either way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Hezbollah is a defensive organization, not an offensive. They react, they
don't attack for no reason; the retaliate and react when provoked.

The same goes for the palestinians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
21. So you know...
...some of your sources suck and aren't really accurate. The worst is "whatreallyhappened," (WRH) which is a crap site to begin with, but this "reporting" is just poor indeed. Some of your sources are incomplete, with very little information and no reporter listed. One report is from a "Syrian analyst." Another source, clearly states that the raid took place in Israel, but that fact is overlooked because it is in the picture description. Finally, the crap site "WRH," provides false translations and even events words. I checked the original French sources.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. Since no independent source had possibility to
investigate the incident, I think it is best to wait for more information.

The two soldiers for example might know where they where kidnapped...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. Crappy sources
Your first link goes nowhere, here is the corrected link, Forbes source.

Let’s look at it:

The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.

The issue here is a comma. Had the sentence been, “The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border, in southern Lebanon, …” or “The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday, across the border in southern Lebanon,...” then there might be a case that the “capture” took place in Lebanon. However, the way it is written implies that the attacks took place “across the border.” The other issue is the word “in.” They should have used “of” and that would have made it less ambiguous. The following clause, “…which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.” kinds of sums it up. If taken inside Lebanon, weren’t ground forces already there? :shrug:

I couldn’t find your second source. The link didn’t work for me.

The third source is a blog referring to your second source, Yahoo!, which I just cannot find.

Number four, Monsters and Critics (your link doesn’t work), has the following paragraph:

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.


This paragraph might seem to indicate that the soilders were taken in Aita al-Chaab, but if one reads it correctly, it is clearly saying the Lebanese city is a point of reference. The place where the soldiers were taken was indeed near the border, as is Aita al-Chaab. However, the kidnappings took place in the morning. This paragraph is detailing what happened later the same day.

This source also provides another nugget. In the picture provided, the caption reads:

The Al Tahrir Bridge is seen destroyed after Israeli warplanes targeted it, in Jdeydet Marjaoun, south Lebanon, Wednesday, 12 July 2006. Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid Wednesday, triggering an Israeli assault with warplanes, tanks and gunboats striking southern Lebanon as Israeli troops crossed the frontier to hunt for the captives. EPA/RABIH DAHER (emphasis mine)


Therefore, this source confirms the raid took place in Israel.

Your fifth source actually contradicts your original premise/question.

QASMIYEH, Lebanon, July 12 (Reuters) - Israel's government authorised on Wednesday what it called a severe response after the Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah captured two soldiers and killed eight others in cross-border attacks.

---snip---

The sources said the Israeli soldiers had been seized at around 9 a.m. (0600 GMT) across the border from Aita al-Shaab, some 15 km (nine miles) from the Mediterranean coast.

---snip---

Nasrallah said Hizbollah had repelled an Israeli force that tried to go into Lebanon to hunt for the missing soldiers, destroying a tank and killing four crew members.

(emphasis mine)


Again, this report talks of “cross-border” attacks. The second paragraph I included shows that the attack was across the border from Aita al-Chaab. Finally, the last paragraph I provided shows Nasrallah bragging about repelling the Israelis OUT of Lebanon in their attempts to get their soldiers. If the Israelis were already there, wouldn’t that be a hollow boast?

The sixth source, well, it is just pathetic in many ways. First, it is an opinion piece by a Syrian analyst. Secondly, the following paragraph contradicts itself:

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.


Say what?! First the ‘author’ starts out with they Israeli troops being ambushed on the Lebanese side of the border. Then, goes on to say that the two soldiers were “arrested” “inside Israeli territory!” :crazy: So which is it?! Did the Israelis cross and get beat back? Somehow I doubt that, but that is just my opinion.

The Bahrain source has no author, and is just a blurb. It indicates the “Lebanese police” made this statement. We know that not to be accurate, as it was Hizb’allah, not the Lebanese police that made the “arrests.”

Now we come to the odious “WhatReallyHappened” (WRH) group. They are an anti-Israeli and, at times, an anti-Semitic cesspool. However, let’s pretend for a moment that it is a legitimate news site. When you open their page, you get several “clips,” that “prove” “THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE CAPTURED IN LEBANON” Yet, just above their screaming headline is a quote from The Guardian, which states:

The US government was closely involved in planning the Israeli campaign in Lebanon, even before Hizbullah seized two Israeli soldiers in a cross border raids in July.


:wtf: They have a quote from a newspaper that says the “arrests” took place “cross-border” then, proceed to SCREAM that the soldiers were captured in Lebanon?! :shrug: But, this is the MO for that wacky site! So let’s look at what they provide….

The first in their list is the Forbes site. I have already addressed that above. Their second source, Hindustan Times doesn’t even have that article listed at their site. I searched and could not find it. Therefore, I can’t really address it. The third quote is from the Bahrain source, also already addressed. Number four on the list is a translation from a French “Yahoo!” source.

WRH translation: “According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory.”

The WRH French version: “Selon la police libanaise, les deux soldats ont été capturés en territoire libanais, dans la région de Aïta al-Chaab près de la frontière, alors que la télévision israélienne a indiqué qu'ils avaient été capturés en territoire israélien.”

What they forgot to include was: “Le chef du Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, a annoncé que les deux soldats, capturés à la frontière, ne seraient libérés que par le biais de "négociations indirectes, dans le cadre d'un échange" de prisonniers, alors que le Premier ministre israélien Ehud Olmert a accusé le gouvernement libanais et rejeté toute négociation pour leur libération.”

That translates as: “The chief of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, announced that the two soldiers, captured at the border, would be released only by the means of "indirect negotiations, within the framework of an exchange" of prisoners, whereas Israeli the Prime Minister Ehud Olmert showed the government Lebanese and rejected any negotiation for their release.”


So…were they “close to the border,” or “at the border?”

Like others, their next source, Monsters and Critics, I have already addressed.

The next “source” is from AFP, but there is no link, so we are supposed to trust their translation. Let’s say we do…what the odious WRH leaves out is the third and final paragraph:

Hezbollah did not specify the place of capture of the two soldiers. "Islamic Resistance (arm armed with Hezbollah) announces the capture of two Israeli soldiers", indicated television Al-Manar. (emphasis mine)


So, here we have a report of “hearsay” and no report from the ones that actually did the “arresting.”

The China Broadcast report is similar to others. It is all about a missing “comma.” It can be read two ways.

The next source is the Asia Times source, which I have already addressed.

Finally, we come to their final translation of another source. This one from Volairenet.com.

The WRH translation: “Hezbollah has made it clear time and again that it would retaliate by capturing and detaining Israeli soldiers if they entered Lebanon and use them in an exchange of prisoners. Israel has in a deliberate manner sent a commando into Lebanon (Aïta Al Chaab) They came under attack from Hezbollah, who captured two of their soldiers.”


This translation is faulty, but it is also notable that the source is not allowed access in Israel or Lebanon! I find that very suspicious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
31. Locking
This violates the guidelines for discussion of the topic. Please review them before posting further on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1809690&mesg_id=1809690

Further, you posted this earlier, and it was moved toIsrael v. Palestine. Do not re-post material that is moved, or locked.

In addition, links to sites featuring bigoted material, such as "what really happened", are not permitted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC