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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Saphire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:24 AM
Original message
need help with a freeper e-mail, please.....
when did schools in the U.S. stop saying the pledge of alligiance? Did I miss something????? One of the people who work for my company sent me this petition to sign (yeah, right).





PETITION TO REINSTATE PLEDGE TO THE FLAG IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS for PRESIDENT BUSH



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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like BS to me.
:eyes:
Any links in the email?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Here's the discussion at Snopes
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Link's broken
...
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Your link is limp (EOM)
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Link update
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:49 AM by Gormy Cuss
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/pledge.asp


Me, I'd reply to all senders that it's important to restore the pledge to its original form and drop that "under God" nonsense and that the socialist author Bellamy would never have stood for that inclusion.
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erik-the-red Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hasn't changed
My high school still does it.
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Amy6627 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. My son's elementary school still does it. In fact, every Friday they have
a school assembly around the flag pole in front of the school that is begun by the pledge and then the national anthem.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. Some clueless bot on a bullshit mission.
I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure the pledge hasn't been banned from public schools. This sounds like some wind-up bot who springs into mindless action at the mention of any of the three magic words: flag, bush, God.

Just a hunch.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. This subject perplexes me
"Conservatives" want to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. I prefer the military personnel's oath of enlistment where they swear to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC. The person who sent you that email is a domestic enemy of our constitution. What does the pledge of allegiance have to do with "for president bush?"

And if the little kiddies in public schools are so concerned about "liberty and justice" for all then no doubt they are pushing to allow gays to marry and to join the military. That is if their pledge means a fuck to them.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. God, guns, gays.
Gotta stir up the conservative fundie base into righteous outrage.

Sure, Bush sucks, but liberals are worse! Look! They banned the pledge! We are at war with the terraists and the left!


(granted, its not true, but by now your average freeper, who minutes earlier may have been doubting Bush, is now drooling and barking at the prospect of kids not being forced to say the pledge. they don't even need to google to see if its true, they are so worked up by the idea of it)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. My kids' school gives their students an opportunity to say it everyday.
Some kids it; some don't.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. Here's what Snopes says about it:
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. Tell them to keep Big Government out of the Local Schools.
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:40 AM by MrCoffee
That should make his head explode.
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WePurrsevere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
14. Perhaps using Snopes response as a jump off point might help...
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/pledge.asp

<snip>
The more important issues might be what problem the petition seeks to address and what solution it proposes, and on both those counts this petition is rather fuzzy. It states that its objective is to "reinstate Pledge to the Flag in public schools," but the Pledge of Allegiance hasn't really been removed from public schools, nor does the petition outline the means by which by the Pledge should be "restored" if it were indeed in need of restoration. Most likely the issue is confused due to some outdated or erroneous understandings of recent court rulings in this
area.

In 2002, Sacramento attorney Michael Newdow, acting on behalf of his daughter, initiated a legal challenge to the constitutionality of public school-sanctioned recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, maintaining that the inclusion of the phrase "under God" (added to the pledge in 1954) violated the first amendment's prohibition against governmental establishment of religion. The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit initially decided in his favor, but in 2004 the Supreme Court ruled that as a non-custodial parent, Mr. Newdow did not have valid legal standing to bring the challenge on behalf of his daughter and dismissed the appellate court's ruling.

Since the Supreme Court did not issue a ruling on the underlying constitutional issue, however, they left open the possibility that someone else (with proper legal standing) could bring a similar suit, and in 2005 two families (represented by Michael Newdow) did so. In September 2005 U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton issued a ruling in their favor, declaring that public school-led recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance violates schoolchildren's constitutional right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God." However, Judge Karlton's ruling is currently limited to three Sacramento-area school districts.

So, for now the only area in which the Pledge of Allegiance is in need of being "restored" is a handful of public schools in the Sacramento area. Moreover, whether the most recent ruling regarding the Pledge is overturned or expanded is a matter to be decided by federal courts or by Congress and the state legislatures (should someone propose a constitutional amendment to settle the issue). Sending a petition to the President is one way to try to ensure the chief executive is aware of public opinion, but he has little power to resolve the issue being addressed (save indirectly by appointing federal judges or influencing Congressional votes).
</snip>


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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. The pledge is recited daily
in Virginia schools. There is also a mandatory minute of silence for prayer, reflection, or whatever-as long as the students are silent.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. er..in 1943, students won right to refuse in W VA
West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette
Students who were Jehovahs Witnesses won the right to refuse to salute the flag. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compulsory flag salute is a violation of the rights of all persons - including students - to freedom of expression. More recent cases have upheld the right of students to remain in the classroom, seated quietly, during the recitation of the pledge of allegiance to the flag.

http://www.aclu-mass.org/students/index.html

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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I believe it is current
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 12:20 PM by countingbluecars
law in Virginia that the pledge is to be recited in every classroom each morning along with the observation of a minute of silence. It has been challenged but not reversed, if I remember correctly.
Students may sit quietly if they do not wish to say the pledge.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Policy Change Brings School System to Compliance with Constitution
http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16377prs20050111.h...

Virginia School Board Votes to Allow Students to Sit During Pledge of Allegiance (1/11/2005)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@aclu.org

Policy Change Brings School System to Compliance with Constitution, ACLU Says

RICHMOND, VA--

Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia --
and based on recommendations from its own lawyers --
the Spotsylvania County School Board last night voted to remove a policy
requiring students to stand during recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance.

snip-->
In a letter and legal memo sent last week, the ACLU warned school board members
that students have a constitutional right both not to say the Pledge and to refuse
to stand during recitations. Supervisors gave initial approval to change the policy
in December, but were required to confirm that vote at its January 10 meeting in
order for the policy to take effect.



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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks for the article.
This has definitely been an issue in my Northern Virginia county school system. Daily recitation of the pledge and minute of silence is a fact in Virginia, but at least students have the right to sit it out.
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
17. Just another method for spammers to gather long lists of email addys
and the pukes that forward this drivel will soon find themselves wondering why their in-box is bursting with spam...
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
18. If they sent this on company time and bandwidth you need to talk
to the IT people, HR, and management and ask if this approved use of company resources.

You also need to talk to HR and mention that you are being harassed by co-workers sending politically coercive and coarse email.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. US Appeals Court in SF ruled it 'unconstitutional' in 2002, due to the
words 'under God'. Many petitions have come out to reinstate the pledge and keep the words'under God'. However, no one can be pressured into saying the pledge....it was ruled illegal 60 years ago.

http://www.aclunc.org/students/guide/pledge.html

Do we have to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
No. The courts say that students have the right to sit silently during the flag salute and Pledge of Allegiance as a protest against government policies (such as the death penalty or abolishing affirmative action) or in opposition to the words of the Pledge.

Almost 60 years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that a compulsory flag salute (Pledge of Allegiance) violated an individuals constitutional right to free expression. As long as you do not disrupt the pledge, you may refuse to participate. You do not need your parents permission to opt out of saying the pledge.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Who still thinks that Neudow is good law?
SCOTUS didn't have to work too hard to overturn the 9th Circuit on that one.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. It's the 'for pResident bush' part...'One nation, under bush'..is what I'm
thinkin.
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