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Hertzberg: Bush's big Iraq gamble came up snake eyes (MUST READ)

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:12 AM
Original message
Hertzberg: Bush's big Iraq gamble came up snake eyes (MUST READ)
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:13 AM by BurtWorm
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/talk/060821ta_talk_hertzberg
....

“It is now obvious that we are not midwifing democracy in Iraq,” Thomas L. Friedman wrote, in the August 4th edition of the Times. “We are baby-sitting a civil war.” Friedman may not be another Walter Lippmann (just as any number of Stewarts, Olbermanns, O’Reillys, and Coopers don’t quite add up to a Cronkite), but he is the most influential foreign-affairs columnist in the country, and from the beginning he has been a critical supporter of the war. His defection is a bellwether. “The Administration now has to admit what anyone—including myself—who believed in the importance of getting Iraq right has to admit,” he wrote. “Whether for Bush reasons or Arab reasons, it is not happening, and we can’t throw more good lives after good lives.” In a Washington Post column a day earlier, the relentlessly centrist David S. Broder, citing his colleague Thomas E. Ricks’s new book, “Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq,” admitted that “the hope for victory is gone” and deplored “the answer from Bush,” which he characterized this way: “Carry on. Do not waver. And do not question the logic of prolonging the agony.”

That same week, a summing-up confidential cable by William Patey, the departing British Ambassador to Iraq, found its way into the newspapers. “The prospect of a low intensity civil war and a de facto division of Iraq is probably more likely at this stage than a successful and substantial transition to a stable democracy,” Patey wrote to Prime Minister Tony Blair. “Even the lowered expectation of President Bush for Iraq—a government that can sustain itself, defend itself and govern itself and is an ally in the war on terror—must remain in doubt.” Asked about Patey’s assessment during a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee, General John P. Abizaid, the over-all American commander in the Middle East, replied carefully (Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was sitting next to him), “I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it, in Baghdad in particular, and that, if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war.” Last Monday, in an interview with ABC News, General George Casey, the top commander in Iraq for the past two years, agreed, saying that “the six last weeks or so have been the highest levels of sectarian violence that I’ve seen since I’ve been here” and that “a countrywide civil war” is “the most significant threat right now.” (At a news conference that same day, President Bush himself weighed in on the subject: “You know, I hear people say, well, civil war this, civil war that.” Well, at least he’s listening. Or maybe just hearing.)

Three and a half years ago, on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, commentators across the board agreed that the coming war would be a gamble—“the greatest shake of the dice any President has voluntarily engaged in since Harry Truman dropped the bomb on Japan,” Thomas Friedman called it. The metaphor came up again and again as the war approached. “This is the biggest gamble any President has taken in my lifetime,” a foreign-policy specialist at the Heritage Foundation said. “By accident or design, President Bush has allowed Iraq to become the gamble of a lifetime,” the Washington Post noted. Some viewed the gamble with apprehension. “Whatever this war’s effect on the region, globally it may be an even bigger roll of the dice for the United States than either its proponents or critics have argued,” Charles W. Freeman, Jr., who was the first President Bush’s Ambassador to Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, wrote. Others were thrilled by the audacity, the swagger, the sheer “High Noon” moral clarity of it all. “This is Texas poker, with the President putting everything on Iraq,” a Republican senator told the columnist Robert Novak, with relish.

It is in the nature of gambling that the gamble may lose. The dice have now been well and truly rolled, and they have come up snake eyes. The war’s sole real gain—the overthrow of the murderous Saddam Hussein regime—is mocked by the chaos and suffering that have overwhelmed millions of Iraqis, whose country is again a republic of fear. The concrete losses are horrific: nearly three thousand American and “coalition” troops killed; thousands more maimed; scores of thousands of Iraqi civilians dead; a third of a trillion dollars burned through. So are the less tangible ones: the unprecedented levels of anti-Americanism throughout the Muslim world and Europe; the self-inflicted loss of America’s moral prestige; the neglect of real nuclear dangers, in Iran and North Korea, while chimeras were chased in Iraq. The neoconservative project of a friendly, democratic Middle East, with Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace, is worse than a charred ruin—it is a flaming inferno.

After the defeat of Joseph Lieberman in last week’s senatorial primary in Connecticut, spokesmen for the Bush Administration and the Republican Party sought to portray the result as an expression of opposition to the struggle against Islamist terrorism. It was not. Virtually all those who voted against Lieberman, and many, probably most, of those who voted for him, oppose the Iraq war, as does a solid majority—sixty per cent, according to a CNN poll released last Wednesday—of the American public. But they oppose it because, among other reasons, they believe that it has harmed, not helped, that larger struggle. At the end of the week, after British authorities foiled what was evidently a large-scale plot to destroy transatlantic airliners and murder thousands of passengers, President Bush called the plot “a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom.” But the war in Iraq is wholly irrelevant to the means chosen by the London terrorists, and the means that thwarted them—dogged police work, lawful surveillance, international coöperation—are precisely those which have been gratuitously starved or stymied on account of the material, political, and human resources that have been, and continue to be, wasted in Iraq. Why not change the game to one that relies less on gambling and bluff and more on wisdom, planning, and (in every sense) intelligence?

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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. "wisdom, planning, and (in every sense) intelligence?" from the USA? - HA
.
.
.

well said,

but not likely from them PNACers running the USA

(sigh)

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. If something is a lock to be a DISASTER from the start, ab ovo, in concept
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 12:24 PM by kenny blankenship
right from square one, etc., is it really a gamble?
Invading Iraq, occupying it for years, and trying to transform it into a mini-USA is quite possibly the STUPIDEST IDEA I've ever heard.
Can you be said to gamble on something that has NO CHANCE of coming out "right"?
To gamble one must have an expectation of a possibility of gain. There must be a quasi-rational calculation of odds versus payoff. I see nothing like that here. Any halfway rational aspirant would have consulted with the CIA about the chances of a big payoff or loss on this Iraq proposition. (Clearly anything less than a big win would be a big loss because of the heavy investment of resources and prestige) And the specialists at Langely surely would have told him what the certain pitfalls in Iraq and the region would be. But Bush didn't know about these pitfalls. Bush didn't know 'cause he didn't ASK, and he didn't ask because he didn't WANT to know. This is NOT the gambling mentality; this is a religious mentality at work.

Instead it seems to me that Bush as the leader and exemplar of the knucklewalking rightwing decided to refight Vietnam in Iraq and to prove the do-anything supremacy of America, the world-ordering preeminence the corporate and religious rightwing believe is ours by virtue of our "master-race culture" of Christianity and Commerce. This isn't gambling, it's more like an "act of faith". Bush reportedly didn't know anything about the Sunni/Shia divide within Iraq even as he was invading it. If the calculation leading to war isn't based on information about the other side, what must it be based on? Faith in our side. Faith alone --Bush and the rightwing's faith in the supremacy of America-- would justify this megalomaniacal undertaking. And since engaging in this auto da fé completely ignores the lessons of previous conflicts like Vietnam, it's more like an undoing in the Freudian sense. Bush and the rightwing have been using the lives of service members to wish-away the previously established limits of U.S. power and ideology, a self-knowledge so bitterly acquired in Vietnam. But since Bush and people like him refused to accept this knowledge, thousands of people will have to die and a dangerous chaos will be sown, perhaps enflaming the region for decades to come.

This stupid war is no gamble and never was. It's a sacrifice on the altar of the will to power--a demonstration of the divinity of the Emperor.
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Plenty stupid, sure -- and supported by . . .
A whole bunch of people regarded by their colleagues as really smart -- by which I mean the neocon intellectuals who have been pushing this for years.

For me, the stupidity isn't the defining factor. This war was wrong because it was morally wrong. You can't/shouldn't/musn't try to bring democracy to a people at the point of a bayonet. Foolish and arrogant and . . . wrong.
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Spearman87 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Didn't we use 500,000 troops in Gulf War #1?
This war we tried to do on the cheap, with much fewer troops. And then early on when it became obvious that we'd miscalculated, we failed to adjust that plan while the situation was still salvagable, between the Summer of 2003 and the end of the year. Tom Friedman initially supported the effort and thought we had a chance to indeed transform the ME. So I don't think the idea would have seemed so "stupid" if we had reacted to what was happening......we could have held back a full-blown insurgency if we'd acted before it spun completely out of control.

Originally you had mostly an insurgent problem, not internal intertribal violence. It was Suni Saddam loyalists, who did not want the new order, along with outside instigators from Iran and Syria. They tried to instigage intertribal warfare, but were mostly unsuccessful and the intertribal violence was mostly smallscale until well into the occupation: For 2 years or so, the Shiites stayed fairly well in check. Their spiritual leader was able to diffuse calls for revenge and helped keep some order. There would be murders of Shites, but they held back. At some point not too many months ago, the Shiites in the Baghdad region finally snapped. Who knows why? One too many busload of young Shiite men kidnapped and throats slit? One too many family groups beheaded and left in the road with heads atop their torsos? Too many summer months above 110 degrees and no A/C? I don't know, but at some point the Shiites decided they had taken it up the rear for long enough.....with still no self-government, still under occupation, still nothing like the security of a civilized society and no order. You can take a lot when there is some sense of order and control and a light at the end of the tunnel. Even under the iron boot of Saddam, Baghdad had order, and you knew what to expect, and how, to the degree possible, to keep a low profile and stay out of the spotlight. I'm just not sure that has ever been present during the occupation.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. To compare GW1 and this GW2 is stupid
GW1 simply expelled an invading army from a patch of ground--not a very big patch either.

The goals of GW2 are absolutely different IN KIND.
No number of troops will equalize the difference in the aims of these two wars.
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Spearman87 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Then forget the comparison. Don't let my stupidity
cloud the idea I was positing. I believe more troops could have helped. You believe that no amount of troops the US was capable of staging could have stabilized Iraq and prevented the insurgency and the civil strife to spin out of control, is that correct? I, Tom Friedman, and many others believe differently.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. TOM FUCKING FRIEDMAN? That name is synonymous with dishonesty
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 12:26 PM by kenny blankenship
and inaccuracy around here. Just so you know.
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Spearman87 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Then consider your list of people who members here
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 12:38 PM by Spearman87
WOULD think are capable of giving an honest assessment of the situation in Iraq, back in 2003. Who is on it? If those people really are capable of that, then undoubtedly some of them will agree with me and Friedman--It's an issue on which there is not and was not 100% expert consensus on the Left. So if you know of no analysts who are considered accurate "around here" who believe what I suggested, either your reading is too limited to get a well-rounded picture (on this particular issue, not in general) or this site is too extreme to be unbiased on the subject. There's no crime in that, if that's the case. I'm friends with some right wingers who are just as biased in the opposite direction.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. If you consider Friedman an expert--much less an expert "of the left"
then we really have nothing to say to each other. Watch less TV, is my advice, much less TV. Just turn it off for a few years. I've heard of "analysts" who tried to justify the invasion--and I also know them for what they really are. They are billed on TV as nice polite educated liberal people, not FOX Fascists or partisan spear carriers for the President, but liberals who were pro-Invasion. These milquetoasts writers aren't part of any "Left" worth speaking about. They do nothing but provide a kind of intellectual snotrag for the upper middle class to wipe away the phlegm that digesting rich morsels like Iraq causes to their delicate systems. They'll never challenge anything and they aren't meant to--they owe their entire visibility within the system to the fact that they are incapable of challenging anything. If your idea of who is a commentator from the left admits inclusion of those "liberal hawks", most of whom now regret their pro-war position, (but still beg attention and credit from their audience), well then you've been LIED TO, lied to grossly, about what is "Left" and who is on the Left.

Friedman is hack idiot paid to promote idiocy. He's wrong--not Left or Liberal--and he was wrong all along the way and he probably won't ever be right about anything. If you find him illuminating or entrancing--all I can say is I'm deeply sorry. Friedman is paid to promote a certain point of view, so maybe idiocy isn't his only excuse--I don't really care though to inquire into the metaphysical qualities of his idiocy. I don't care about its origins and true status. It is enough for me that he is an empirically proven, double-demonstrated fucktarded idiot--and an idiot whose idiocy gets people killed.

Any nice polite liberal writer who agreed with Friedman then or agrees with him now, is also harboring the idiot gene, and is not to be trusted, on any subject. Idiocy like that comes from deep down inside; it's congenital defect of vision and as such isn't likely to change with the passage of time. This kind of idiocy isn't the simple absence of cleverness: it's more like an inability to see certain colors or taste certain chemicals which in the case of the published idiot prevents him from seeing the falsity of certain concepts or from admitting the relevance of certain historical evidence. The clever but idiotic can through such innate and mighty incapacity persuade themselves to swallow the most Gargantuan falsehoods. So you can tell yourself that Friedman or George Packer are clever people, if you like, by virtue of their positions at publications. Personally I wouldn't give you a Reagan dime for all their collected opinions, because on the subjects that matter most they have had their heads stuffed up their asses and some still do.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Whoa! RIGHTEOUS RANT!
Don't know if you'll see this -- but in case you do, I just wanted to let you know that I think your post is absolutely awesome.

"Friedman is hack idiot paid to promote idiocy. He's wrong--not Left or Liberal--and he was wrong all along the way and he probably won't ever be right about anything. If you find him illuminating or entrancing--all I can say is I'm deeply sorry. Friedman is paid to promote a certain point of view, so maybe idiocy isn't his only excuse--I don't really care though to inquire into the metaphysical qualities of his idiocy. I don't care about its origins and true status. It is enough for me that he is an empirically proven, double-demonstrated fucktarded idiot--and an idiot whose idiocy gets people killed."

Sing it!

sw
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. What SHE said ! ! ! N/T
BHN
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Come on Kenny, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. (LOL)
Best rant I've read in a long while. :toast:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. What HE said ! ! ! N/T
BHN
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Spearman87 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Wow, LOL. I suggested that we get off Friedman and
find out if any source allowed "around here" might agree that more troops could have changed the outcome. We are stuck on Friedman I see, and/or by definition any other alternative source who has a similar opinion is by definition illegitimate. I'm glad to at least know where you stand and how you evaluate the world.


I feel bad for Tom. He is just one analyst who came to mind; I could have looked up others but he was a name I knew had some visibility and a degree or respect in some professional circles. I just never knew the poor guy was going around kicking puppies and drowning kittens during his time off.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Take kenny blankenship's advice - turn off the TV.
Welcome to DU! :hi:


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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. He's a notorious apologist for globalization and pre-emptive war.
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 10:02 AM by BurtWorm
His head has long been up his ass about Iraq. Why anyone trusts a pundit who couldn't see what would happen in Iraq with Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney in charge is beyond me. But he did write a pretty good column today (never mind that he says he has just one question for Cheney then goes on to ask a dozen):

Well, I just have one question for Mr. Cheney: If we’re in such a titanic struggle with radical Islam, and if getting Iraq right is at the center of that struggle, why did you “tough guys” fight the Iraq war with the Rumsfeld Doctrine — just enough troops to lose — and not the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force to create the necessary foundation of any democracy-building project, which is security? How could you send so few troops to fight such an important war when it was obvious that without security Iraqis would fall back on their tribal militias?

Mr. Cheney, if we’re in a titanic struggle with Islamic fascists, why have you and President Bush resisted any serious effort to get Americans to conserve energy? Why do you refuse to push higher mileage standards for U.S. automakers or a gasoline tax that would curb our imports of oil? Here we are in the biggest struggle of our lives and we are funding both sides — the U.S. military with our tax dollars and the radical Islamists and the governments and charities that support them with our gasoline purchases — and you won’t lift a finger to change that. Why? Because it might impose pain on the oil companies and auto lobbies that fund the G.O.P., or require some sacrifice by Americans.

Mr. Cheney, if we’re in a titanic struggle with Islamic fascists, why do you constantly use the “war on terrorism” as a wedge issue in domestic politics to frighten voters away from Democrats. How are we going to sustain such a large, long-term struggle if we are a divided country?

Please, Mr. Cheney, spare us your flag-waving rhetoric about the titanic struggle we are in and how Democrats just don’t understand it. It is just so phony — such a patent ploy to divert Americans from the fact that you have never risen to the challenge of this war. You will the ends, but you won’t will the means. What a fraud!

Friends, we are on a losing trajectory in Iraq, and, as the latest London plot underscores, the wider war with radical Islam is only getting wider. We need to reassess everything we are doing in this “war on terrorism” and figure out what is worth continuing, what needs changing and what sacrifice we need to demand from every American to match our means with our ends. Yes, the Democrats could help by presenting a serious alternative. But unless the party in power for the next two and half years shakes free of its denial, we are in really, really big trouble.

Link to whole column behind subscription firewall:
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/opinion/16Friedman.html?hp
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. allies would have helped. but that concept was pre-9/11 thinking
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 12:34 PM by SlavesandBulldozers
diplomacy would have helped too. pre-9/11 thinking though.

in the end, no amount of troops would have helped - since the war was lost politically, not militarily.

to compare Gulf War I with this quagmire is ridiculous. There were like 180 nations all lined up with us in the first one.
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Spearman87 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Okay, poor example that obviously clouds
emotions and judgement around here. The truth is I have no good comparative example, but I do think military science somewhere or other would suggest that we had too few troops, and that more troops might have had a chance to contain the civil unrest while it was fairly small.


In the end I guess it's just my opinion so I'll move on.

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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. the reason you have no good comparative example
is because it is a disaster unheralded in American history.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's what the generals (including Shinseki) were saying.
Their position was, if you do invade Iraq, you have to do it with a sufficient number of troops. I forget the amount that was kicked around--something like 300,000 as a minimum. I wonder what these guys would say now, knowing what they know about how Iraq devolved into the sort of sectarian violence even a dope like Dick Cheney knew it would devolve into during the first Gulf War.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Excellent points. The key error the Bushists made is misunderstanding
the nature of the problem, which led them down the worst possible avenue toward solving it. The problem was political and they tried to solve it militarily. It can't be solved militarily. Ever.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Did you support the invasion of Iraq initially?
I know Tom Friedman did. I also know that a lot of people who didn't support the war believe the US has an obligation to clean up after itself. Which position is closer to your own?
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Spearman87 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. When I listened to Colin Powell’s
Long speech before the UN detailing all the Intel we had, I believed him and it made me decide to support it. I hope I have time for a longer answer at the end of the day. I have never, ever posted this much! I’m taking a late lunch at my desk, but it ends in less than 2 minutes…..I have to go back to sneaking a peak when I have a free moment. See ya later!
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. If you hung out on DU more.
You would have known Colin was full of shit.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Even with 500.000 troops, and a REAL coalition....
..George HW Bush wasn't STUPID enough to depose Saddam!!!


Here is what Poppy Bush said about invading Iraq:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam ... would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible ... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq ... there was no viable 'exit strategy' we could see, violating another of our principles...Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land." (1998)--- Gerge HW "Poppy" Bush

Doesn't sound like a gamble to me!
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. So is this the tipping point? Have we reached our . . .
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:31 AM by MrModerate
Walter Cronkite moment for the 21st Century? It's hard for me to tell because -- as the author of the New Yorker article alluded to -- there are so many fora for discussion, and those of us concerned enough to follow this issue daily (or hourly) have lost the objectivity that would allow us to detect when the rest of the country (the non-political junkies) have finally had enough.

Maybe we'll find out in November.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. "dogged police work, lawful surveillance, international coöperation"
But the war in Iraq is wholly irrelevant to the means chosen by the London terrorists, and the means that thwarted them—dogged police work, lawful surveillance, international coöperation—are precisely those which have been gratuitously starved or stymied on account of the material, political, and human resources that have been, and continue to be, wasted in Iraq.

These words are wasted on Bush.

1) "dogged police work"--If I recall correctly, intelligence that pointed to the 9/11 attacks was ignored by Bush. And there was plenty of it. It just didn't happen to fit into the Bushistas' agenda.

2) "lawful surveillance"--note the word "lawful." It can work to foil such plans as noted by the author with reference to the British.

3) "international coöperation"--remember "my way or the highway"? Bush ignored international intelligence indicating a big disaster in the making prior to 9/11, and he has squandered any goodwill we might have had from the international community since then.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kicking this
Extremely good analysis of where we were and where we have gone
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. kick
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. Everyone seems to be ignoring the real reasons that Bush wanted to invade
Iraq. There's no way that our national security played into it. Bush/Cheney knew there were no WMD, they just didn't care. Saddam hadn't bothered anyone in a decade. So why was Bush so obsessed with invading Iraq? Was it so that we could have a continuous supply of Iraq's oil? Was it for geo-political reasons? I believe that his prime motive was for his own political power. He wanted to show up his father.

I remember even before 9/11, Bush was talking about sending our military into Iraq if Saddam didn't do what he wanted him to do. I couldn't figure out all the tough talk about Iraq since they had been emasculated in 1991 and wasn't a threat to anyone. Then I started hearing the talking heads on TV recalling how Bush I had great approval ratings during and right after Desert Storm, but he ended up losing his re-election bid to Clinton. They said that George Jr. was determined not to let this happen to him. So his father had strong approvals during the war? All George needed to do was get into a never-ending war and the American people will rally around him. Remember, this was pre-911. My suspicions were confirmed when reading what Bush Jr's biographer said:

“He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999,” said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. “It was on his mind. He said to me: ‘One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.’ And he said, ‘My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.’ He said, ‘If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.”

http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=761

Does that sound like someone who would try to avoid war? ..."If I have the chance to invade..." He wanted to start a war to have a successful presidency. Well, he got to play toy soldier and now there's a civil war in Iraq, the region is destabilized, and the American image around the world has been tarnished for what will probably be decades.

Thanks
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. And what is America if not a warrior state?
With a lynch-mob like mentality? Vietnam was a flowering of the warrior mindset. Raygun was an embodiment. Gulf war 1 was another branch.

Look around you at the warmongers - a full 40% of the public still thinks we should stay in Iraq. 40%!!

America likes her wars and GWB was just the man to get it on.... Clinton was a pussy, Gore too, but GWB? Now that's a man's man.

We should have never invaded, not Iraq, not even Afghanistan, but we did and folks drooled over the prospects. We are sick, with a sick leadership.

Where to go from here? Down. How far to the bottom, is the only question we should be discussing.

G'night!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
29. k&r
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
30. Kickin', Recommendin'...Uh-HUH! N/T
bhn
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
34. Even a douchebag sometimes does the right thing
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 09:20 AM by librechik
and flushes out the stinky vaginas.

a dispirited Go Tom from --- never mind. He's too much of a douche. Go away Tom. Your judgement is bad.
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