ATHEISTS FILE CIVIL RIGHTS SUIT IN "OKLAHOMA OUTRAGE" -

[Synnical]

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko3.htm

DU member Chester (Chuck) Smalkowski background here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1598933&mesg_id=1598933

American Atheists filed suit in federal court Friday in a case involving charges of "prayer bullying" and conspiracy to violate the civil rights of an Atheist family.

In November, 2004, Nicole Smalkowski -- a student at Hardesty Oklahoma High School and member of the female basketball squad -- was ordered by her coach to participate in a game-time recitation of the "Lord's Prayer." Ms. Smalkowski, an Atheist, refused and was then banished to the locker room. Days later, following a meeting of school officials, she was punished by being removed from the team.

The suit charges that Nicole and the rest of her family were then made the victims of false accusations and "subjected to public humiliation and distress." Her father, Chester Smalkowski, tried to meet with the School Principal who "struck Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski repeatedly without warning or provocation." Incredibly, a warrant was filed against Mr. Smalkowski who was arrested and scheduled for trial. Officials with the District Attorney's Office in Texas County, Oklahoma then offered a deal where charges would be dropped if the Smalkowski family agreed to leave the jurisdiction.

He refused the buckle under to the intimidation.

Represented by attorneys Tom Gungoll and American Atheists National Legal Director Edwin Kagin, Smalkowski endured a five-day trial that included a grilling of the school district superintendent. Mr. Kagin patiently explained to the jurors what Atheism was. Many of the prospective jurors opined that they could not believe the word of an Atheist over that of a god-fearing Christian, and were struck for cause. Some, including the wives of two local ministers, admitted that they were incapable of being fair to an Atheist in such a situation.

Chester Smalkowski was acquitted unanimously.

Much more at links, it's complicated, atheists, cvil rights, ya know.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[Tom Joad]

1. God bless Chester and Nicole, they are doin the right thing.

[silverlib]

3. LOL!

You are on a roll tonight!

[Tom Joad]

8. Even as a non-believer, sometimes these lawsuits seem a bit

frivolous, or some atheists really take offense really easy. I tell ya, seeing "in god we trust" on u.s. money, for example, is wayyy down on my concerns about this nation and its direction.

However, this seems, from what is presented here, anything but frivolous.
I hope justice is obtained.

[tbyg52]

43. I *do* find "In God We Trust" offensive

It's wayyyy down on my list of things that need to be fixed, but it does need to be fixed. The Constitution makes it quite clear this nation was *not* founded on religion of any sort.

[LisaLynne]

58. Here in Indiana, they are suddenly adding that phrase to ...

our license plates. I agree that it is down on the list when things like what is reported in this article are still going on, but yes, it does need to be fixed at some point. I don't know why people can't see the wisdom and brilliance of the separation of church and state. It is truly a block of a truly free and democratic society.

[FUGW]

94. I love it the state named after the people that had to be killed

to make way for the new country founded on the lord who said "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not steal". I guess a license plate slogan is fair restitution.

[focusfan]

76. i'm not a right wing

religous person but the Lord should fit in there somewhere.the
Lord is what this country was founded on

[smirkymonkey]

78. You certainly think like a right-wing religious person.

BTW, this country was founded by deists, not Christians, and many of them were rather hostile toward religion.

[lvx35]

111. Which why "in God we trust " is not such a big deal but the Lord's...

...Prayer is an outrage. The Lord's prayer is Christian, its specific to a certain religion and must be kept out of any government entity. The old "in God we trust" was part of a broad definition of God that included the Deists "God as nature" and isn't intended to enforce a religious practice on anybody, but came from a time when probably 99.9% of people believed in a some concept of God...which may be dated now and maybe should go, but the intent was not to enforce a religion with it at the time.

[LeftyMom]

79. No, this country was founded on enlightenment ideas and the constitution

Should you prefer theocracy, the economy is booming in Saudi Arabia.

[Beausoir]

81. I'm not a racist..BUT. I'm not a bigot BUT...I'm not a troll...BUT...

[ima_sinnic]

84. you are welcome to make your "Lord" "fit in" wherever you want "him"

IN YOUR PERSONAL LIFE. Are we as a society so insecure about our religious beliefs that we have to have them made an official part of public life and shoved down everybody's throats? Emblazoned on our money, in our school rooms? How about in shopping malls? And, if so, whose "Lord" should be so honored? Upon what "Lord," exactly, was the country "founded" anyway? The Lord of greed and acquisitiveness as the entire country was stolen from the natives? Your argument--or whatever it is--is fallacious from the get-go.

[Lochloosa]

85. This country was founded by religious fanatics.

Who understood the danger of having a state religion.

Now why would extremely religious people write the First Amendment?

[hatrack]

91. Uh, yeah . . . . OK

Have a nice stay!

[Maraya1969]

95. The first Lords were the Gods of rain, wind, and animals. I am not

a Native American Indian and I am not a specialist in their religion but we all know they were here first.

Unless you want to say that this country was beaten and stolen from people who consider that the Lord, (the Lord of what?
Who's Lord?) founded it; that would perhaps be somewhat correct.

But then again we have to ask what Lord? Allah? Krishna?

[LostinVA]

97. Actually, you are completely mistaken

And, if you knew your history, you would know that. Catherine Crier's new book has a great chapter on this very thing. Or, if Judge Crier's book is too much for you to attempt to read, then just read the Treaty of Tripoli. It's free on the web and everything.

Ten posts, huh? Oh,. I must go see what they were about...

[blonndee]

99. "the lord was what this country was founded on"?!?!?!

Hoooooly Jeezus. :eyes:

[Bretttido]

101. hahaha

I love illogical thoughts that stem from baseless arguments.

:banghead:

[IdaBriggs]

110. Is there a problem with the Kentucky school system, or did you not pay

attention? Because people in Europe were busy SLAUGHTERING EACH OTHER over which way (fill in the deity of your choice) should be "properly" worshipped, the Very Wise Men who designed OUR government KEPT GOD OUT OF IT.

If you wish to worship the Lord, or the Lady, or the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, I will defend to the death your right to do so.

But I won't help re-write history to make you feel like "your way is the way its ALWAYS been." It hasn't been that long since we burned the "heretics" who didn't worship the way the people in power wanted them to, and I'm willing to put money on the fact your church would have been on the list of "must be eradicated" by the Church Fathers.

Just guessing, of course. Welcome to DU. :)

[MissB]

113. *snort*

Wrong on two or three counts, there.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

114. LOL

You gotta be shittin' me. Enjoy your stay here amongst the dirty heathen masses.

[Miss Chybil]

120. Actually, I think this country was founded on the continent of North

America.

[Ms. Clio]

185. heh

:rofl:

[Jazzgirl]

122. You certainly need to get a clue.

This country was NOT founded on the Lord. It was founded on the principle of being able to decide for yourself what you wanted to do. YOU need to get a clue!

[jsamuel]

124. I respect your beliefs, but if you want to make an argument about the

founding of this nation, I suggest you do some intensive research of our history before making incorrect statements that "the Lord is what this country was founded on." Again, I respect your belief in God (as I do as well), but we must keep arguments based on history, in the relm of historical fact.

[LittleClarkie]

127. But a person can't shove their beliefs down another person's throat

The team can pray if they want. I would balk if that were banned. But she has the right not to if she so chooses. What if she were Wiccan, Jewish, or Muslim? Same difference.

And I am a religious left wing person.

[immoderate]

129. Who told you that?

Tell those folks to stop filling your head with nonsense.

--IMM

[robbedvoter]

132. If you'd bother to read a bit of history, several waves of immigrants

who founded this country came here to escape religious persecution. You know, like the one people in the OP were subjected to (and worse). It was for that reason that the Separation of church and state was included in the Constitution. They didn't want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Unfortunately, puwer leads to abuse, and laws are broken these day by the very people sworn to uphold them.
And fanatics are emboldened - not just in ME.

[greiner3]

136. yore inglish is knot veri advancd. culd uwe stat that unuther wey fer mi?

[mike_c]

138. oh dear, I think you're lost....

:rofl:

[liberalhistorian]

140. Really? You haven't read much

American history, then, have you? What do you do, just absorb whatever your fundie family and friends and church members say without thinking for yourself? The Founders made it VERY clear that there was to be both total freedom OF worship and freedom FROM worship, for those who so chose. They were very aware of the dangers and chaos caused by state-sponsored religion, as was the case in many European countries at the time, and the persecution and suffering it spawned. They were determined to avoid the same fate for their new country, even those who were devout Christians.

[Warren DeMontague]

159. Really? How? Particularly as it pertains to using the state to persecute

those who don't happen to share your belief?

...

Oh. And since "the lord was what this country was founded on", perhaps you can tell me EXACTLY how many times the word "God" appears in the United States Constitution...


:popcorn:

[NMMNG]

161. I suggest you go back and brush up on your American history

Here's a little to get you started:


"The American Constitution is in no way based upon the Christian religion"

John Adams, in the Treaty of Tripoli

[Richard Steele]

162. Yes you are. And it only took you two sentences to prove it.

[kestrel91316]

171. Uh........ NOT. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

Say hi to Falwell and crowd when you return home.

[Miss Chybil]

188. Why would he be banned?

I don't agree with what the poster said, but he has a right to say it. He wasn't beligerent and I didn't notice in the DU rules anything about saying you think this country was founded on the lord being cause for banmnation. Do you think we should all fall into lockstep like the Freepers?

[Warren DeMontague]

194. No, but in the context of the thread

if he's using that argument to stick up for people who clearly, repeatedly, and unconstitutionally discriminated against and harassed a family for being atheists, I think it's questionable. Just like if he was sticking up for racists. Just like if he was sticking up for gay-bashers.

What I find funny is the few folks in this thread who seem to be completely oblivious as to what it's about, and seem to have a reflexive need to stomp around announcing "Well, I believe in God, and you can't stop me! Nyah!"


:eyes:

[kestrel91316]

204. I didn't recommend banning. I merely expressed my belief that

that particular poster was not the sort of person who would be happy here.

Raving fundie, IMHO.

[Skelington]

177. A lot of people would have you banned for that.

Admitting that you believe and worship the Lord, on this board is like blood in the water. This is a free speech, progressive site, except if you believe that the Lord has a place in everyday life, no matter how you try and explain what you meant, there is little tolerance for "pro-religion" here. Good luck, and

God Bless.

[Warren DeMontague]

178. So PERSONALLY believing something REQUIRES you to shove it

down other people's throats, as well?

Thanks for clearing that up, O poor persecuted believer. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

197. Shorter Skelington:

Boo hoo waah waah I'm persecuted.

[Scout1071]

219. Uh, no, you are dead wrong.

There are many religious people here at DU. Republicans do not own "the Lord."

We just understand that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution call for a very clear separation of church and state.

So, there is no problem with "pro-religion" as you call it, but we have a major problem with the idea of a religious government. It is contrary to every thing that our founders wanted and it is definitely contrary to what the millions of US soldiers have died for over the past 200 years.

[Swamp Rat]

181. Dog pile on the rabbit!

:D

[Ms. Clio]

184. you're apparently not a big fan of the Constitution, either n/t

[Mad_Dem_X]

199. Ummm...not really

Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists or Atheists. They were definitely NOT Christians. Read up on the subject a little, it may surprise you.

[citizen snips]

203. No

Religion should stay out of the schools.

[index555]

216. but should someone be forced to recite "the lords prayer" ?

I'm an Atheist myself, I don't take any offense at seeing a large cross , or having the words "under god" added to the pledge of allegiance (even if it was an add on to differentiate ourselves from those"godless communists") , that was how I learned it.
however when a person are FORCED to recite something that you don't believe in , then, something is definitely wrong.

[Scout1071]

218. Um, you might want to study a little history and read a few

documents, like the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Our country was founded by those seeking freedom of religion, but if you read the works of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and the like, you'll understand how they clearly wanted separation of church and state. That is unquestionable. So, don't come on here and act like our nation was founded to be a Christian state. It wasn't. That would make us no better than the Taliban.

Enjoy your stay at DU.

[alfredo]

2. Took courage to go up against the theocrats.

[InsultComicDog]

146. Sure did.

I would have taken the easy way out and bolted town.

[alfredo]

153. Have you gained support from people in your town?

Have you found others willing to stand with you?

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. And people wonder why atheists so strongly dislike believers

Yes, I know quite well that these bigots running the school are not representative. But when so few people are willing to stand up for the separation of church and state that protects our rights, and all of the people in this country who seek to shove their brand of snake oil down our throats are all self-proclaimed followers of Jesus, well....

[liberalhistorian]

7. I understand where you're coming from,

believe me I do. But don't judge all of us by this type of fundie theocratic nutballs. And we are starting to stand up and be heard; a leftist religious coalition has been formed and is trying to make an impact.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

115. How many atheists have been invited

to your leftist religious coalition? Or agnostics? Or non-religious people?

Don't get me wrong, I think taking back the religious message from the fundies is important, but a true separation of church and state platform should include an atheist plank.

[liberalhistorian]

142. One of the state purposes of the coalition IS

to ensure a safe and free environment for atheists, agnostics, and those who are members of minority religions. How many atheists, though, would be interested in working with a religious coalition, even if it's liberal?

I just don't understand why people can't just be left alone to believe what they want, in peace and without fear of social, professional and economic repercussions.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

147. If that was one of the stated goal of the organization

and the group was working for a true separation of church and state, then count me as one atheist who would work with that group.

I'm not sure how many atheist groups would align themselves with a religious coalition, but does it hurt to ask? Atheists tend to be pretty open minded people.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

215. "Atheists tend to be pretty open minded people"

You got that right!

[politicat]

192. The Colorado Atheist organizations tried to join Interfaith.

We were rejected and told we weren't wanted and our input was not valuable.

About 20% of Colorado's population is non-religious. We're not a tiny minority.

And that is all we want: to be left alone to believe as we please and not be forced to practice as others wish us to. We want professional, social and legal equality. But groups like interfaith don't want to assist us even when we bring a lot of helping hands.

[readmoreoften]

12. I can't recall the last time someone was kicked off a team for Xianity.

I've yet to see a news story about a Christian who lost a job or a sports position due to being a Christian. Oh sure, I'm sure they'll point out the guy who got fired for prostelytizing at work or got fired for discriminating against gays. But getting fired for fucking with people doesn't count.

[MADem]

15. Well, Lou Dobbs quit CNN because one of the producers harassed him

mercilessly and incessantly about his Catholicism. Lou sued, they settled because apparently Lou had a strong case, a nice payday for Lou, and he returned to CNN, and all was forgiven.

I personally don't think people should be fired for proselytizing. I think it should be mandatory, however, for annoyed co-workers to lie in wait in the parking lot after work, and set upon the proselytizer with clubs and pitchforks, and beat the living shit out of the jerk so that those poor workers never, ever, have to put up with that cloying, irritating shit at work again. Tar and feathers optional....

[readmoreoften]

17. I'll vote for that.

But here's the question: did the guy who fucked with Lou Dobbs do it because he was a fundie wingnut anti-papist? Or was he an atheist who didn't like religious people? (Why am I putting my money on door number 1...)

[MADem]

30. I dunno...I think the guy was just a generic asshole who liked to poke

at people. Lou Dobbs is old-school Catholic; more modern than Mel Gibson, but Opus Dei all the way. I suspect the guy screwing with him mistook serious religious adherence for some sort of timid, fearful humility, with which Lou does not appear to be saddled!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

167. Sources for that Lou Dobbs Story? I'm curious. -nt

[MADem]

195. It's old. You'd probably need Lexus Nexus to dig it up.

I was still working for the gubmint when it happened; and I recall that he signed a nondisclosure agreement before he went back to work.

And he was happy as a clam, so it must have been a good payday.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

196. I'll maintain my skepticism until I find something substantial.

Old or not, it'd show up in Google. Searchs for "dobbs cnn" with various combinations of the words "catholic," "harassment," "religious," and "persecution" bring nothing.

I'll hunt down somebody who has LexisNexis (not "Lexus Nexus") access, to satisfy mine and Peter Parker's curiosity.

[arwalden]

201. Wow... That's Unbelievable!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

217. So unbeliavable the poster seemingly ran away.

So much for a true story of Christian persecution in the United States. Tsk tsk.

In my experience, people who spread such kind of carefully-crafted-for-difficult-disproval BS just slither away quietly and then peddle the same propaganda in other forums, in hope someone will swallow.

[Goblinmonger]

202. You got a linky for that.

I would like to read more about it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

205. If you read my replies, you'll see you won't get one.

But in the process I learned a useful tactic.

Whenever I'm trying to convince someone of some unbelievable bullshit I just pulled out of my ass, I'll say it's "old" and the person will have to look for it on LexisNexis (a paid service.)

Genius!

[Goblinmonger]

208. Oh, I saw the responses

but I thought one more person needed to call bullshit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

211. Well well well, look what a friend of mine found.

http://secure.mediaresearch.org/news/cyberalert/1999/cyb19990609.html#3

Nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

As I thought -- RW bullshit. And persecution complex.

[liberalhistorian]

5. As a liberal Christian, this infuriates

and embarrasses me no end. The fundie theocratic fascists are hijacking Christianity and it's frightening and saddening. Good for the Smalkowskis for standing up for themselves.

[BattyDem]

13. What they're practicing is not Christianity ...

I don't know what it is, but there's nothing in their behavior that's even the slightest bit Christ-like.

Hmmm ... something just occurred to me. We have a large group of "Conservatives" whose actions go against everything Conservatism ever was and a large group of Christians whose actions go against everything Christ ever taught. I don't really have a point, I just find it interesting that both sets of beliefs - one political and one religious - have been hijacked by extremists who have twisted those belief systems into something completely unrecognizable, yet both are now trying to achieve the same goals.

[Jamastiene]

25. The Christian Right is neither.

I have also heard it said this way; the Religious Right is neither.

Edited to add: I love your Al Gore 2008 sig picture. Can anyone use that picture? I mean is it okay if I use it?

[ninkasi]

31. The version I heard

is "The Moral Majority is neither." However you say it, it works.

[Jamastiene]

32. Yep. That applies here too, I think. n/t

[BattyDem]

44. Thanks!

:-)

If you like it, feel free to take it - anyone who wants it is welcome to take it. All I ask is that you save it to your hard drive and upload it to your own server or Photobucket account because if too many people link directly to my photo, my bandwidth will be maxed out and no one will be able to use it. B-)

For those who don't know how to save and upload a photo ...

Right-click on the picture and select "Save Image As" or "Save Picture As" and save it to your "My Documents" folder or anywhere you can easily find it.

If you want to upload it to the server space included with your ISP account, follow the directions for uploading files on your ISP's Help Page.

If you want to upload it to Photobucket, simply go to http://www.photobucket.com and create an account if you don't already have one (it's free). Login ... click the "Image Upload" tab ... hit the "Browse" button to view your hard drive and navigate to the "My Documents" folder (or wherever you saved the picture) ... click on the picture and click the "open" button ... click the "Submit" button. Photobucket will provide you with the direct link to the picture - just copy the URL and paste it into your DU Signature (it's in the "Options" - "Edit your profile" section of this site). :-)

[trotsky]

46. I know it feels good to say that,

but it really doesn't address the issue. Christianity is what it is. You can't just step back and say that because someone who claims to be a Christian did a bad thing, that they aren't a Christian or aren't being "Christ-like." The Christians in Oklahoma would likely look at you with your liberal beliefs and say the exact same thing. Who's right? Since Jesus won't stop down and set the record straight, we have no way to settle the issue.

Better to simply counter their version of Christianity with your own than trying to label them "not Christians."

[BattyDem]

47. I understand what you're saying, but ...

how many people did Jesus beat up in order to get them to follow him? I'm not trying to be argumentative - I gave up Christianity a long time ago, so I'm certainly no expert on the subject - but I don't ever recall reading anything in the Bible about Jesus strong-arming anyone into following him and that was the point I was trying to make. :-)

[trotsky]

49. He did take a whip into the temple.

And threatened people with hell on more than one occasion.

That's the thing - in the bible you can generally find what you need to justify virtually ANY behavior.

[liberalhistorian]

51. He "took a whip into the temple" to drive out

those who'd turned it into a marketplace instead of a place of worship, and not to force anyone to believe in or follow him.

[trotsky]

54. The point is he used physical force,

and in this context it was to drive home a lesson. His behavior in the temple was as much a part of his ministry as turning water into wine, feeding the masses, or any of the other events purported to have occurred.

[BattyDem]

52. "You can generally find what you need to justify virtually ANY behavior"

Sad, isn't it? :-( Nothing disgusts me more than people who use their religion as an excuse for hate or violence because they always have that smug, "God is on my side" attitude.

I've always believed that if I have to find some way to "justify" my behavior, it's probably not a good behavior. :P

[liberalhistorian]

50. That's because you're right, there's

absolutely nothing in the Bible regarding Jesus, or anyone else, strong-arming people into following him. One of the main tenets of Christianity is that God has given us free will, including the freedom to believe in him or not. It infuriates me to see "Christians" doing things like this, because it sure ain't what Jesus would have done and it isn't the way God wants people to believe.

These people need to focus on true Christianity and what Jesus would do, which is being a voice for the voiceless, caring for the poor, elderly and sick, feeding the hungry, fighting for equality in access to health care and education, standing up for the powerless against the powerful, etc., etc. In other words, afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted.

[trotsky]

57. You will fight a never-ending, losing battle...

trying to define "true" Christianity. The worst abuses in the history of the religion have come when believers insist that they know what the "true" version of it was.

[AspenRose]

56. Me too.

Sort of reminds me of the crap going on in Delaware with the Jewish family as well.

Infuriating and embarrassing.

[FUGW]

98. For his time Jesus was a liberal Carpenter and for that they nailed

him to a cross.

[tbyg52]

131. You're sure right about that...

...same way the political arm is hijacking the GOP. I didn't used to automatically hate *all* Republicans.

That said, the sort of crap documented in the original post *has* been happening for all my lifetime (personal anecdotes upon request ;) ). I do agree it's getting worse.

[BattyDem]

6. Why do fundies have an insatiable need to ...

shove their religion down the throat of every person they come into contact with?!? Why can't they just worship their god and leave everyone else alone? Do they feel threatened by people who don't worship their god? Are they so insecure in their own beliefs that they can't tolerate the beliefs of others? :shrug:

[NMMNG]

11. You got most of it

Do they feel threatened by people who don't worship their god? Are they so insecure in their own beliefs that they can't tolerate the beliefs of others?


They are also consumate control-freaks.

[Selatius]

14. They believe their way is the only right way, that's why

They so firmly believe their answer is the right answer that they are willing to adopt authoritarian methods to get you to accept their answer. They believe they are trying to do good by saving your soul, but we all know the old mantra of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

It is not so much their ideas I am opposed. People could believe they came from Mars for all I care. What I am opposed to is sheer intolerance and the authoritarianism that follows.

If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, then in their eyes, you are worthy of nothing but burning in hell.

[MADem]

16. Unload Jesus, and it sounds like Hizb'Allah!!! My way or the Highway! NT

[Xithras]

87. It's the "Christian Community" concept.

In other words, they don't like atheism so they retreat to these small hyper-religious towns where they can be with their own kind. When an atheist moves into town, they perceive it as an outside attack on their entire community...they want the negative outside influence to go away or be converted so their small religious sanctuary will be safe. In a town with less than 300 people, everybody literally knows everybody AND what church they attend.

FWIW, I grew up in a town like this. Our local school district actually bussed us to our churches after school for Bible study, and nobody questioned it back then. Heck, our school principal, in our taxpayer funded elementary school, lead us in saying grace before lunch every day, and started his morning announcements with a prayer. Explaining the mindset in these kinds of communities to someone who has never lived in that kind of environment can be tough, because it's a completely alien way of thinking when compared to the way that most of us grew up. You see your community as a tiny bubble of good resisting the "evils" of modern society, and when somebody who agrees with that society moves in, they are perceived as an invader that needs to be repelled.

In all honesty, it has as much to do with tribalism as it does religion.

[BattyDem]

93. Thank you for your post - it's very informative.

You're right ... I can't imagine living in a community like that, but hearing about your experience has given me a little more insight into the mindset of fundies. It's kind of sad that they live such a sheltered, fear-filled life where anyone outside of the community is "evil" or just plain wrong. I enjoy learning about other cultures and beliefs and I honestly don't understand why people are frightened by diversity - but your "tribalism" comment makes a lot of sense. They are just so "locked in" to their community beliefs that everything else is threatening. That's sad. :-(

[Maraya1969]

105. What is strange is the Amish believe very much the same as Christians

and you never see them preaching on the street corners. They live their quiet simple lives in their own way.

I'll never forget when a drunk driver hit a buggy and killed an Amish child. The Amish people had forgiven this man months before the trial where they had to testify. There did not seem to be a vengeful bone in their bodies.

Maybe we should learn something from them.

[BattyDem]

116. There could be an explanation for that

The Amish have no radio, television, internet, etc., right? That means they are not exposed to the the RW media hate machine 24/7 like the fundies are. They probably never heard of televangelists like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or RW pundits like Rush, O'Reilly or Hannity. In other words, they aren't being told every single day that it's perfectly alright to be hateful, bigoted, vengeful and intolerant. They aren't being told that Christianity is under attack because salespeople say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" or because Wiccans want their religion to be recognized on US military grave markers. They aren't being told that everyone and everything in the world is out to destroy their way of life. Just a thought ... :-)

[vickitulsa]

152. It's not in small towns only that this happens.

The problem is worse there, however -- no denying that!

"...it has as much to do with tribalism as it does religion."

Interesting and valid points you make. My own first reaction to the questions posed above was based on my experiences in fundie churches, thanks to something I went through over 25 years ago. During an especially vulnerable time in my life, I was proselytized heavily by friends (and one stranger), and as a result I bought into the fundie message for a few years before the hypocrisy of it all enraged me and made me strongly anti-fundie for life.

What I learned from the preaching in their churches was that it is every Christian's DUTY to share their beliefs with everyone s/he meets! Yep, to their way of seeing it, NOT sharing one's belief in Christ and specifically the fundie version of Christianity IS A SIN, or very damn close to being one. Certainly it would be considered a failing, a shortcoming, and therefore shameful.

What they've got so wrong there, IMO, is that it may be true that believers in Christ are expected to "confess Him," or IOW not to deny Him when and if asked, but that's a helluva lot different than being required to spout His holy name every time one speaks. Perhaps those who do so are really just trying to proclaim their own righteousness in the marketplace and every other site and institution and public gathering no matter whom they offend and annoy by doing so!

The same folks, I have noticed, also seem to like to let everyone know how much money they give to their church or to fundie causes.

These people clearly appear to have missed those verses in their Bible that instruct believers to avoid "letting their left hand know what their right hand is doing," and "when they pray, to go into their CLOSET" to do so and "NOT to pray publicly to be seen of men"....

[sendero]

125. Because they are insecure..

.. in their own beliefs. They can't tolerate the idea that someone else has the guts to bet their "soul" on what their heart tells them about their religion - that it is one big fairy tale.

[eachsmallcandle]

9. Texas County, Oklahoma.

that about says it all, right there. :P

[fishwax]

66. it certainly says a lot

welcome to DU!:hi:

[crankybubba]

82. try living there???

i gurantee it's no picnic. I have lived in that county for ten years. religion and racism go hand in hand there. (rascism against mostly hispanics). a small town of approximately 2000 people will have in the neighborhood of 10 churches in it. It's all about who you are and who you know there.

[readmoreoften]

10. Ah yes, another Christian bashing thread.

Nah, I'm just fucking with ya. Someone's gonna say it, though. Might as well be me. Viva la Oklahoman Atheists!

[beam me up scottie]

28. You almost got me.

Until I saw your name. :spank:

[readmoreoften]

29. tee hee hee. /nt

[Marr]

18. Every fundie with a martyr's complex should have to read this.

This is what religious persecution looks like. It's not about being told that you can't put your religious idols in public buildings, or force someone else's kid to pray to your god.

[earth mom]

19. Is this what the future holds for those who don't believe

in the reTHUGlican God?!

:scared:

[pnwmom]

20. What a story.

As a Catholic, I think the wall of separation protects EVERYONE. Thank you for posting this.

[Synnical]

22. Thank you for stating that!

:hi:

[tbyg52]

133. You rock!

:yourock:

[NMMNG]

21. DETAILS OF THE LAWSUIT

The federal suit, filed Friday in US District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma names a battery of defendants including school officials, the Texas County Sheriff's Department, County officers and the Town of Hardesty, Oklahoma. It charges that the family's constitutional rights were violated under, but not limited to, the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth, Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments. It also charges that school officials "unlawfully and unconstitutionally met in conspiracy to violate (the) Plaintiff's constitutional rights."

<snip>

The suit notes that a year after the first incident involving Ms. Smalkowski, she once again tried to participate in the girl's basketball team. Again, Coach Ernest Cook "attempted to force Plaintiff N.S. to recite the "Lord's Prayer." Ms Smalkowski instead "chose to recite the Pledge of Allegiance." This time, the suit charges, Nicole Smalkowski was punished by school officials who falsely accused her of "threatening another student." She was suspended "without a Due Process hearing or notice, as is required by Oklahoma Statutes." Eventually, she was suspended and denied her statutory right to a hearing.

A school board member and her husband, a Texas County Deputy Sheriff are identified and charged in the lawsuit as conspirators who "attempted to hire, coerce, or otherwise convince, for payment of money or other consideration on school property, one Jerry Kelly to inflict personal harm on Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski in retaliation for his religious opinions and in further retaliation for Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski's attempt to defend his daughter and family against the false and malicious allegations..."

Another charge focuses on a Deputy Sheriff who ostensibly ordered the submission of falsified policy reports and attempting under false pretext to have Mr. Smalkowski re-arrested. Other allegations listed include:

¶ Attempts to coerce the bail bondsman to withhold bail without charges.

¶ Improper meetings and private conferences involving local officials.

¶ Efforts to coerce the filing of a "groundless restraining order" against Mr. Smalkowski.

¶ Efforts to obtain false statements from students "in order to create a false cause for arrest."

¶ Harassment

¶ Efforts to coerce the giving of false testimony.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko3.htm

[starroute]

35. Er. what was that about not bearing false witness?

Never mind. Must have been some other religion.

[NMMNG]

39. Apparently it's ok to lie when you're ridding your town of evil

Like atheists, gays, women who exhibit independent thought, teenagers in love.....

[Bretttido]

103. I'm glad to see these assholes are being taken to the cleaners

and made an example of. For some reason though, I doubt the devote followers of Pat Robertson will hear anything of it.

[NMMNG]

157. Me too

For some reason though, I doubt the devote followers of Pat Robertson will hear anything of it.

You're most likely right. But I'll bet that town will think twice before harassing non-Christians again.

[Solo_in_MD]

23. This is why you never meet with school officials without an active

recording device. We all should remember the student who recorded his HS teacher, this is no different. Same tools works just fine. When charges (media or legal) get made, you let the educrat/bureaucrat get on the record first, preferably under oath. Then its ambush time. The downside is that in some states, that is illegal, but media will not care and lap it up.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bretttido]

106. Glad to hear from you.

You won't get banned for reasonable posts like that. Welcome to DU; have a stay. Hopefully you will soon find that our government has been abused and taken advantage of by a despicable crowd. :hi:

[Duncan Grant]

112. You're a self-proclaimed right-wing conservative Republican fundamentalist

and after 3 1/2 hours you still haven't been banned?
I'll safely assume you voted for Bush (twice). I'll also assume you're against civil equality for gays. And you're still here?! :wtf:

Yeah, I'm writing that check to DU -- it's in the mail. :grr:

edit: time

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Damn Atheist Whackjobs. Making trouble by not shutting up.

How hard is it to bite your tongue and lick the shiny fascistic boot of Jesus-Based Theocracy, anyway?

:sarcasm:
:crazy::crazy::crazy:

Kicked. And Recommended.

[beam me up scottie]

27. Why, it's not hard at all, I do it every day.

I need my paycheck after all.

Recommended.

[liberalhistorian]

144. Damn right! Who do they think they are,

not believing the way the fundie fascists demand! Why, next thing you know, they'll actually be thinking for themselves! :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Mojambo]

26. This is why we atheists are a bit touchy about church/state separation. nt

[Duppers]

33. Bravo! nt.

:)

[salvorhardin]

34. Good for Chester and his family

For standing up for their rights!

[ReadTomPaine]

36. "Dear god" (Graphic)

Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they don't get enough to eat
From god,
I can't believe in you.




Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears.




And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they can't make opinions meet,
About god,
I can't believe in you.




Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too.




Dear god,
Don't know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,




And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it ain't and so do you,
Dear god




I won't believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
You're always letting us humans down.




The wars you bring,




the babes you drown.




Those lost at sea and never found,




And it's the same the whole world round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the father, son and holy ghost,
Is just somebody's unholy hoax




And if you're up there you'll perceive,
That my heart's here upon my sleeve.
If there's one thing I dont believe in...

It's you,
Dear god.


"Dear God" Lyrics by XTC, 1987

[beam me up scottie]

38. Your post deserves its own thread.

That was truly inspired.

I've got it saved, thank you.

[ReadTomPaine]

41. Thanks, BMUS!

You think I should repost this in a dedicated thread? I thought perhaps in context here, it would gain a certain relevance that it might not have on its own...

[beam me up scottie]

158. Good point about the context.

Maybe you should save it for the next time the "Decider" publicly asks his god to bless Amerikkka.

Or on the National Day of Prayer.

[Turn CO Blue]

63. Greatt! As above poster said, this deserves its own thread. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

64. Great song, great images.

:applause:

[Kolesar]

72. "I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer"

That is the line that sets the whole song up. I had a believer-friend, who was the minister's son, who lamented what he saw in Nevada in the casino. All those gamblers were lined up at the slot machines, bargaining with the higher power. Oh, please, make this one win big! One chance to have their prayers answered and they are going to waste it on fifty dollars of tokens. Dear God.

[ReadTomPaine]

74. Or a football game score.. n/t

[vickitulsa]

154. Or a good parking place!

The fundies I once knew were always praying to get a good parking spot -- and NOT just in the church parking lot!

Called one person on it once, and he ended up being embarrassed -- a bit. Not enough to stop doing it though.... Sheesh, how perverted can it get??

Reminds me of another common practice, the way both sides in a bloody war constantly pray to their god to let them win. When I was a child, I used to wonder how on earth God (when I thought there was just one) could respond to prayers from BOTH sides. Now I understand: It's one god versus another god, you know, like Christ versus Mohammed.

Scariest thing going on right now on our planet is the narrowing of all conflicts between humans to this Islam v. Christianity paradigm. Slaughter in the name of religion is certainly nothing new in human history, but it seems to be enjoying a resurgence on a grand scale, to the point it's threatening peace on earth for the foreseeable future. Hypocrisy so blatant it should embarrass believers and shame them into silence, but their voices just become more and more strident....

[Kolesar]

166. The Islam v. Christianity paradigm and racism sold this war vs. Iraq

That was the part that disgusted me most. People who should have known better turned into bloodthirsty cheerleaders. They did not bother to read up or reflect on what was really going on.

Per your second point, it reminds me of a story I heard (on public radio, IIRC). Someone asked Abraham Lincoln if we should pray that God is on our side. Lincoln responded that we should pray that "we are on God's side".

[raccoon]

213. I heard that parking place crap from a woman once in a 12-step

group. Me and another member called her on it and basically said it was horse manure. She backed down and said, God slowed her down so she'd look harder and find a parking place.

I believe prayer changes my thoughts, my attitudes, my ability to cope, etc. I don't believe it changes outside events/people.

[beam me up scottie]

37. I'm so glad they're going ahead with this.

I hope they get justice in the courts even though it's too late for their kids.

[pagandem4justice]

40. Outrage, indeed.

As a member of a religious minority (Hellenismos), I shudder at this story, and applaud the family for standing up for their rights. When will mainstream America catch on that these fundie kooks are not "normal" Xtians??

:grr:

[Guaranteed]

42. SMOKE these motherfuckers.

Take them the fuck DOWN.

[nuxvomica]

45. Horrendous!

I am constantly surprised at what's going on in this country. Every organized religion in the country should support their suit because they're stakeholders on this issue, whether they realize it or not. First it will be the Atheists, then the Wiccans, then Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

[PaDem]

48. As an Evangelical Christian.............

this disgusts me. Every day I'm more and more ashamed by what Christianity represents in this country. I don't blame any of you for lashing out against it.

[liberalhistorian]

53. I think it's time that we legitimate Christians

stand up and fight back in earnest against this hijacking of our religion. These people are not acting in the way that God would want; I'm sure he's ashamed of their claiming to represent him.

[ProfessorGAC]

55. Kudos To You Both For Your Good Attitudes

And i'm glad you said it. If i said "Why don't you take your religion back?" some would interpret it as a bashing, rather than an honest question. But, it is, indeed, an honest question.

There have to be more internalized and introspective christians in this country than the members of the lunatic right who've hijacked the public face of the faith. Unfortunately, the "squeaky wheel" theory holds forth and idiots like Falwell, Robertson, Wildmon, and Donahugh (sp?) get the press attention.

Thanks for your sentiment.
The Professor

[liberalhistorian]

139. I don't interpret it as bashing, because, as you

said, it's an honest, legitimate question; the same question that should be asked of conservatives and repubs, why don't you take back your party from those who've hijacked it?

I'm noting more and more rumbling and activity from fellow liberal, leftist Christians, and shit like this only motivates us even more to fight against this kind of thing perpetrated by so-called "Christians." This isn't Spain in the Middle Ages, and we are not going to have another Inquisition.

I've never understood why people get all bent out of shape if someone else doesn't agree with their religious beliefs. Why do you care whether or not someone doesn't share your beliefs, especially people you don't even know? Why do you care whether or not someone is an atheist or agnostic or worships blue polka-dotted turtles? It shouldn't make any difference in your life if others, including people you don't even know, don't share your own religious beliefs. If you're made insecure by others not sharing your beliefs, then they must be on a pretty shaky foundation to begin with.

[PaDem]

61. I agree..............

and I think we have to understand that "fighting back" as you put it will take decades. The so called "Religious Right" movement has been active for 30 years now. They have been incredibly well organized and well funded, and most importantly effective. I'm seeing signs only in the past few years that more moderate to progressive Christians are organizing and working to counter the destructive forces of the organized Religious Right. We need organization, leadership and money. It won't be easy but I do think Christians can be a positive force for change in this country following the principles that Christ taught, as opposed to the destructive force that they are now. This must be done while the integrity of the wall between church and state is strengthened.

[B3Nut]

60. Amen to that!

The separation of church and state is for the good of *both* entities. What fundamentalists don't realize is the Hydra they create by combining church and state will someday eat them alive. No good can come of such a dangerous admixture.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[liberalhistorian]

143. True enough, no good has EVER come

from combining church and state, ANYWHERE, in ALL of history. And those who demand and clamor for it the most often find themselves the victims of their own making.

[Rex_Goodheart]

59. Wow

What hath religion wrought?

[MessiahRp]

62. Seems to me the War is on Non-Christians rather than the other way around

like they whine about repeatedly.

Christians control everything and all other religions are the minority, yet any push for religious equality and there's some bullshit "War on Christianity". It's sickening.

Oh and if I hear William Donohoe pop off his big fat mouth again I swear... GRRR....

Rp

[Arugula Latte]

65. We can't get away from their religion.

They impose it at every turn. This week was a good example. My husband took the kids to a softball game where they invoked belief in god before the game -- :wtf:!! Then a Jehovah's Witness came to our door. :eyes: My husband told her: "We don't believe in supernatural mythology."

[MessiahRp]

70. My problem is the intolerance of other views...

I accept that they believe in the Bible, God, Satan, Heaven and Hell and the whole deal even if I don't believe in most of that myself personally. I don't impose my views onto others and I don't use it as a mandate to decide how I vote (aka choosing to not vote for candidates of specific religions).

Unfortunately people involved in religion take what a flawed human (as all humans are) is saying... preaching their politics to them as somehow the word of God and they vote accordingly instead of using their own brains.

Not all christians or religious people do but a large portion of religious voters are doing so these days and churches are becoming home of the political pulpit. They play to the fears and frailties of their congregation when they speak in their church to enforce belief in God as it is. To do this for politics prays on human emotions in a completely violating way, IMO.

I don't care if people feel the need to believe in something and use blind faith to help them cope with the inevitability of death but don't go to church to appease that side of you and then listen to another human as if they is infallible, take their personal views and use it to choose your political vote.

Use your brain, not your faith when it comes to voting for our current reality.

Rp

[loudsue]

156. These fundies/republicans turn EVERYTHING around: "liberal media"

for instance, is 90% owned by hard core right wing neocons. Everything THEY are guilty of, they project it onto their "enemies", in this case, non-fundamentalists, or liberals.

:kick:

[NMMNG]

163. But if anybody refuses to bow down to their will

that's "anti-Christian bigotry" in their eyes. If you have the impudence to be of another faith or no faith then you are persecuting them. If you ask them to stop ramming their religion down your throat at every turn you hate Christianity. You just can't win with them.

[fishwax]

67. big kick for the smallkowski family's courage

:kick:

:dem:

[Joanne98]

68. A shot over the bow! Go Chester go!

[maxsolomon]

69. as much small town mentality as religious mentality

when EVERYONE except one 'freak' is christian, then you can't quite understand that the Lord's Prayer is religious - you concieve of it as I did as a kid - everyone says it, what's the big deal? its like the pledge of allegiance.

to take it to the point of kicking her off the team, that's when the cooler heads are supposed to prevail. sports. coaches. texas county oklahoma. :eyes:

they could take this all the way to the supreme court & lose at every step. Scalia will uphold it. he could give a fuck about the separation clause.

[kiki]

71. EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

Every time someone on the religious right makes an accusation, it's a lie.

Every time someone on the religious right claims victimhood, they do it in order to attack someone else.

Every time you open the closet of the most vocal anti-sex religious right types, a stack of the vilest porn you've ever seen falls out.

Every time you scratch the surface of one of these pious fuckheads, you'll find hypocrisy, hatred, greed and corruption.

Every single fucking time.

[Catrionn]

73. Why can't conservative Christians just be like the Amish?

The Amish believe that using electricity is sinful. Therefore, they don't use it.

And you know what, nobody is FORCING them to get on the grid. And they aren't hassling everybody else to turn off that bad, evil, electricity.

People leave the Amish alone, and they live the way they want. And the Amish leave everybody else alone.

Why can't ALL conservative Christians be like that?

[Duppers]

75. good point! nt.

nt

[markbark]

77. Quite simple...

The Amish are spiritual beings, the "conservative christians" are religious beings.

Spirituality is about personal growth while looking for the capital "T" truth.

Religion is about amassing power over the (usually) poorly educated masses.
(Do what I say or God will be very angry!)
The dumb ones follow blindly, the smart ones try to climb higher in the church hierarchy
(hierarchy being a VERY apropos word, as it comes from the Greek for "priest ruler")

--MAB

[Beetwasher]

88. Or Orthodox Jews For That Matter

You don't see Orthodox jews trying to force everyone else to follow the Sabbath and eat Kosher.

[GOPFighter]

92. Welcome Catrionn!

Why can't the fundies be like the Amish? Because it takes guts to be Amish. I grew up in Indiana Amish country and the kids in my high school used to throw things (like pumpkins in season) at their buggies. When driving they would try to squeeze the Amish buggies off the road. There's something about being peaceful and apart that seems to threaten people. Anywhere from a third to a half or more of the Amish kids eventually leave the faith before adulthood because it's hard to live the Amish way. Fundies love to fantasize that they are persecuted but very few could survive real persecution because fundies are basically scared people, scared of life and the decisions it requires.

I think atheists understand and respect the difference between the fundies and progressive c'tians because many of us were brought up in the fundy religion and know the psychological dynamics that fuel the fundy's insecurity and their hatred of anyone different than them.

[Miss Chybil]

121. Because they're too worried about who's screwing who to mind

their own business.

[NMMNG]

164. Welcome to DU!

The Fundamentalists differ from the Amish in a very critical way.


The Amish use their beliefs to guide their own lives.

The Fundamentalists use their beliefs to run other peoples' lives.

[Beetwasher]

80. That Whole Town Is Being Persecuted By Those Crazy Atheists!!!

How dare those vile atheists persecute the town by refusing to be forced to pray to the Xtian god! It's the town's god given right to force them to pray! Their refusal to do so would make the baby jesus cry and is persecution of the worst sort! How dare they! :eyes:

[ReadTomPaine]

86. That's ok, Conservatives have the answer to this sort of heresy.

Works for them.

[truebrit71]

89. WHAT FUCKING YEAR IS THIS???

Holy crap!!!

This sounds like something from the 1700's......

[crankybubba]

90. here is a link to a local story about it

http://www.gdherald.com/articles/2006/08/12/news/news01.txt

[Synnical]

96. Thanks for this. n/t

:)

[Maraya1969]

100. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for my own ignorance

of the plight of Atheist in this country. I watched a show called "30 Days" where an Atheist woman spent 30 days with a Fundy Christian family. I never realized or knew the hardships that Atheists face in this country. When a person fears telling others of their non-religious beliefs because of the way they have been treated in the past that is very sad. It is certainly not accepting or compassionate.

I am sorry for not learning of your struggles and for not taking them seriously - until now.

:grouphug:

[cyberpj]

102. I watched that 30 Days show too - and did you see the statistic of voters

polled who said they could never vote for anyone who didn't believe in God? No matter how well qualified they were?

This country is in deep trouble.

[Maraya1969]

108. What were the numbers? I think I missed that or my poor sorry brain

just can't remember.

[Synnical]

145. University of Minnesota Study

Quoting from the episode - I saved it on my DVR and yes, I'll track down the study . . . .

Atheists Are Least Trusted.

Atheists are listed below Muslims, recent immigrants, and homosexuals in sharing "American's Vision of Society."

Out of anyone their kids could end up with, parents said they disapproved the most if they married an atheist.

And half of the country won't vote for a politician who doesn't believe in god, even if that politician is well-qualified for office.

[Arugula Latte]

104. Thanks!

I, for one, appreciate your sentiments! :hi:

:grouphug:

[Lars39]

107. Every time I'm admitted to the hospital,

I worry that maybe I should have lied about my religious preference(none), in case I get a nurse or caregiver that can't get their head wrapped around someone not wanting religion in their life. :(

[Synnical]

151. Well, there's that isn't there?

Someone praying over me, when I specifically don't want that?

<sigh>

[Synnical]

126. Thank you so much for this post Marayal

I, also, appreciate your comments. :toast:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

148. That's the coolest post I've seen from a DUer in a long time - thank you

From an atheist: :hug:

[NMMNG]

165. Your kind thoughts are very much appreciated Maraya

:hi:

[a la izquierda]

109. This is the first

I've heard of this, though I try not to watch the local news here in Oklahoma. Too conservative.

And methinks part of this country was founded because of greed, not God. I love telling my students that. They never believe it.

[The Sushi Bandit]

117. Story was also posted on "Devine Krap" blog

July 3rd 2006

http://devinekrap.blogspot.com/2006/07/atheist-using-atheism-as-d_115198271399477569.html

I didnt know that he was a DU'er!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

118. Holy Shit What A Saga.

That was one of the absolute most dramatic reads I've had in quite a while (the link you posted). I was actually anxiously terrified while reading through the whole first half of it that Chuck was actually still at risk of spending 5 years in jail. I was actually scared for him. The sigh of relief I just had as I got down far enough to read that he was found not guilty of the felony charge and other charges was as big a relief as I've had in quite some time. What a dramatic and outrageous story that was and I'm absolutely horrified at what Chuck had to go through yet at the same time tremendously proud of him for his convictions and strength.

This is one atheist lawsuit that has 100% legitimacy and those fuckers over there need to pay for their discrimination and restriction of someone's civil rights.

Go get em Chuck!

:toast:

[Synnical]

141. Yeah, when you read Chuck's own words

Rather brings it all into focus, doesn't it?

Thanks for reading and commenting.

[SidDithers]

119. Go Chuck and Nicole!...

Nail the bastards.

Sid

[OKNancy]

123. For some more reading, and enlightenment read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=173&topic_id=1263&mesg_id=1510

[depakid]

128. What a nightmare

This is why I could never in the South or lower Midwest. You couldn't pay me enough.

[deaniac21]

130. Incredible waste of time and effort.

[Synnical]

137. On whose part??? n/t

[deaniac21]

168. Everyone mentioned and everyone in the thread.

[fishwax]

172. huh? defending himself against felony charges was a waste of effort?

[deaniac21]

173. Never should have gone there. Look for trouble and you will find it.

Be rational and life is fairly easy.

[fishwax]

174. never should have gone where?

never should have been an atheist? Never should have gone to see the principal?

I think defending our constitutional rights is generally worth the effort. What is it that the man did that was irrational?

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

176. what was it that made this man an asshole

you seem to know so much about it, being able to make sweeping judgements and all, and yet are so sketchy with details.

[Warren DeMontague]

179. Oh, really?

As in, "Just shup up about your beliefs, or lack thereof. It's your OWN FAULT if you speak up and are persecuted for it"

Wow. How massively fucking enlightened of you.

[deaniac21]

182. Well, I have lost 7 pounds in the last month.

[Warren DeMontague]

183. Hmmm. Maybe they were the pounds that understood

the Establishment Clause.

[deaniac21]

186. God, (if that exclamation is permissible) I hate it when men

talk down to women.

[Warren DeMontague]

189. Oh, yeah. *That's* what this is all about.

Nice try! (Was I supposed to somehow magically glean your gender from the content of this thread?)

Personally, I hate it when believers talk down to atheists.

[deaniac21]

200. I'm not a believer but I do know what it takes to get along.

I don't really care one way or the other about this issue. I do enjoy pushing your buttons, however.:beer:

[Warren DeMontague]

210. Apparently, "what it takes to get along" is being happily subject to

discrimination.

Out of curiosity... How do you feel about this case:

http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/indianriver.html

You think those folks should just "do what it takes to get along", too?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

207. "if that exclamation is permissible"

"Boo hoo I'm persecuted"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

198. says the Mafia boss to the store owner who's reticent to pay "protection"

while Nino breaks his legs.

[Synnical]

190. Okay - Whatever . . .

Thanks for your comments which make no sense whatsoever.

[deaniac21]

209. I'm glad I could help, thanks!

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Please elaborate. nt

[immoderate]

134. Go Chester!

I hope he nails them all.

--IMM

[mcscajun]

135. He's a "triple threat": a liberal atheist married to a Native American

He must be stopped! :sarcasm:

Good on him for standing up to these bastards and taking his case as far and as loudly as necessary.
:applause:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

214. Now what if it was a GAY MARRIAGE? -nt

[vickitulsa]

149. One personal anecdote from the 50's re Oklahoma's "official" religion

in public schools. Very revealing about how it was "then" and how it is again NOW!

When I was in the fifth grade, I was subjected to peer pressure to commit publicly to believing in Jesus in my classroom. The pressure was so subtle it was completely silent in a sense, but nonetheless very powerful.

Our elementary school had this really nice, large and impressive, gold-gilt-framed print of the well-known painting of "Jesus knocking at the door of your heart." Many of us recognize it on sight, though I can't name the artist.

What our school did was, every Monday morning first thing (after the Pledge said in unison, maybe), each homeroom teacher asked her class members to raise their hands if they had attended church on Sunday (or the weekend, I guess, though that probably wasn't stated).

One of the harshest lessons I learned when so young was that such pressure can make even a non-lying little girl like me hold up her hand when she did NOT attend church just because every other student in the class had their hands up!!

I was so embarrassed that apparently I was the ONLY ONE who had not gone to church that previous Sunday, I raised my hand too -- and as our little tradition had it, our class got to hang that picture in our homeroom for that week. Every week all homeroom classes took this "survey."

Wellll... here's the funny part.

Afterwards I got to feeling SO BAD about having LIED by raising my hand that I was distressed to the point of finally confessing my sin of lying (false witness) to my mother. Mom was religious, and everyone in our family (except notably Dad) in fact DID attend church most every Sunday, but for whatever reason we had not on that particular one.

I was disturbed, ya see, because the lessons in Sunday school and church sermons about not lying had sunk home in my little brain. So now my mom was in a spot, right? She felt she must -- for MY sake -- do something to follow up on my confession, but she didn't quite know what to do that wouldn't make my humiliation and shame even worse and further traumatize me.

Turned out my fifth grade homeroom teacher lived on our block, between our house and the school, so Mom just took me down to her house where I could confess my lying TO HER ONLY. Mom passed the buck, IOW! Let the teach figure out how to handle THIS hot potato! :rofl:

Mrs. Patterson listened lovingly to my tearful confession of perfidy, for she was a very sweet old lady. Then she had the "perfect solution" to the dilemma of having the picture remain hanging in our homeroom for the week and sparing me a public confession and the whole class the embarrassment of having to give UP that stupid framed picture: She said my confession to HER was good enough! It need go no further, and I had cleared my conscience and learned my lesson.

It was many years, of course, before I realized that she hadn't actually dealt with the problem at all since she refused to carry my confession to the principal's office and surrender that blasted picture. Also the other students, not just in my homeroom but in the entire school, did not get to learn the lesson of how wicked it is to pressure a kid so hard to lie about being Christian and attending church with adult-led peer pressure!

After all, it wasn't the teacher's asking the question that compelled me to lie, OR the prospect of having the picture in our homeroom for the week, or any other aspect of the situation. It was the fact that every other student in my homeroom raised their hands! I later realized that it was very likely one or two (or more) others were lying about their attendance, too, but it didn't occur to me then.

Longwinded tale, maybe, but it is the "gospel truth" about how difficult it can be from a religious standpoint to live in a state like Oklahoma all one's life....

I'm so pleased Chester's family was vindicated by the jury's decision in his case, especially since he should never have been charged! I remember reading about this story -- here at DU, though, not in local news reports. The pressure to "believe their way" continues 50 years later for me and other Okie atheists and non-fundies. That's just it, though -- then it was a generic sort of Christianity that was demanded; NOW it's specifically fundie-based xtianity that is required.

So what ultimately gets to me is that I don't quite understand why all the OTHER "Christians" who are having their religion hijacked by fundies aren't getting mad as hell about it and putting a stop to the fundie takeover of our government! Surely they don't think it's GOOD for the country if one particular brand of so-called Christianity (I used to call it "churchianity" but even that no longer captures the evil, subversive nature of it) gets to interpret Christ and the Bible for the official stance on all related public issues?

The longer those "fellow Christians" stand by silently while evildoers set the standard and compel compliance from U.S. citizens, the more EVERYONE's religious freedom is threatened. "Religious freedom" should mean "freedom FROM religion" as well as the right to pick which doctrines one prefers to believe....

[Synnical]

150. Thank you so much for this!

:yourock:

[vickitulsa]

155. You're very welcome!

I still remember that episode vividly due to the abject fear and misery I went through then. Just a little girl, a 10-year-old, and it WAS traumatic for me.

Guess that's why I can relate so well to Chester's daughter Nicole and all other children who are trained into accepting or believing nonsense with the use of FEAR and peer pressure! I have referred for years to what the preacher at our own church did as "terrorizing children." Don't know which was worse -- going to school or going to church. Fact is, there should NEVER be a comparison!

[Z_I_Peevey]

187. In my small town Oklahoma school in the late 1960s,

we did the exact same thing...only the "prize" we got to display was the Christian flag.

And yes, I often lied about church attendance too.

[TheFriedPiper]

169. Religion, being a mental disorder, should be treated with kindness

But man, some people just need to stop trying to shove thier illness onto others.

If there was a god, there would be no need for religion at all.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. This sort of post is not helpful.

The point is that everyone has the right to believe or not to believe in whatever they want. Categorizing other people's beliefs as "mental illness" is exactly the kind of thing they want to do to us.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

206. Actually, it IS helpful. The question is, to whom?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Propaganda

[LeftHander]

170. I'm a hard atheist....I'm a Unitarian Universalist

...and I don't care to be forced to pray to "God".

I find it offensive that someone would force me to acknowledge the existence of something I believe does not exist. It is disrespectful and ignorant in modern times to to so.

Most "God" people do not understand that I REALLY don't want to pray to a "GOD" simply because "everyone else is..."

I can accept that others wish to do so and do believe in a "God". I do not believe in God so why should I waste my time praying to one? To simply respect others who do? No, I won't do that and I wish that others would respect that. Allow me the dignity to sit silently if I choose. If my participation helps create a experience that supports the belief of others in my community then I will do so willingly, BUT I WOULD EXPECT THE SAME IN RETURN and I WILL NOT BE FORCED TO DO SO.

For example I can sing a gospel song...because I can sing and my voice helps create a experience for others in my religious UU community that they appreciate. I enjoy supporting them in this way. This is how it works we each give something to each other. We don't simply force others to take on our prayers because we can't think any other way.

However for many hardcore theists (Christians in this case) spirituality is a "My way or the highway..." type experience. Many UU churches however break that down and let people experience human religion across a broad spectrum of experiences from meditation to service, song, chanting, drumming, dance and yes even traditional led prayer and responsive reading. The key is that the believers allow themselves to experience and participate in other religions and forms of worship that creates respect and understanding for all beliefs.

The Christian led Basketball Team forced prayer is a one way act, unfair and intolerant to the individual. The people on the team and the school leaders are ignorant and bigoted to the spectrum of human religion and should be sued...and publicly admonished for such behavior.

So much of the world is a mess thanks to people refusing to respect others. I don't have a problem with what other people believe as long as they reciprocate and don't disrespect me for what I believe. Hell, I can appreciate peoples' passion for Christ and God. Just don't FORCE me to believe or discriminate against me because I don't.

If we can't do that....then we are indeed doomed to an existence of constant conflict.

Yes I am asking hardcore Christians, Muslims and Jews to lighten up. this is not "Political Correctness" crap this about the respect and the inherent dignity of all people.

Something that WE know many people of hard theistic belief have little of.

[Thirtieschild]

191. Amazing courage

Acts like this take courage at the best of times - and in the best of places. But to really appreciate how much courage it took, you need to understand Hardesty. It's a small town in the heart of the Oklahoma Panhandle, which means in the heart of the reddest part of this country. I grew up in the Plains and lived in the South most of my adult life - and the Plains win the conservative contest hands down. Completely rural, as far as I can tell no cities from Amarillo (if you can call Amarillo a city) to the Canadian border. Very few Dems and I'd bet even fewer Athiests. WOW.

[Synnical]

193. THANK YOU ALL! The Wall Must Stand!

Thank you all for your support of Chuck and his family. They have been subjected to some serious repercussions related singularly to their lack of belief in any deity and their decision to stand up in a small town in Oklahoma against religious fundamentalism.

Thank you all for understanding the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution.

Moreover, thank you most of all for not turning this thread into a flame war which would have resulted in having it locked before it received 61 recommendations for the Greatest Page!

I’m just flabbergasted. :applause: :toast:

DU’ers have done my atheist, bleeding liberal heart good again. I want to especially thank the religious people who have posted comments in this thread.

Thanks for your support.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

Again: Chucks's post here on DU:

Its even worse if you are a liberal and have no gods

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=173&topic_id=1263&mesg_id=1510

JUST ANOTHER SALEM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=173&topic_id=1263&mesg_id=1790

:yourock: :)

:grouphug:

[Zhade]

212. Good. We're taxpaying citizens with rights, too.

We shouldn't be bullied for not happening to believe in gods, anymore than believers should be bullied for believing in them.

Secularism works.