Stop Profiling - Take up a Muslim appearance

[ck4829]

A woman I heard on C-Span recently said "We're all Americans" when it comes to Profiling. So why should only certain Americans face harsher conditions when trying to enter airplanes?

I propose a controversial solution to Profiling. Look like a Muslim.

Something as simple as a fake beard or headscarf will suffice.

Imagine the looks of the faces on the people who support profiling to look at the airport and see everyone looking like a Muslim.

[catmother]

1. not all muslims have beards.

[ck4829]

2. Absolutely

Some do, some don't.

But that is an image I have of the average Muslim male, so that is just my opinion.

[cigsandcoffee]

3. Policework is all about profiling.

If I were tasked with airplane security, I'd have a very hard time not giving a closer look to an 18-35 year old Middle Eastern looking fellow than I would an old blue-haired lady.

I don't see how I'd be able to help but feel that way.

[eachsmallcandle]

6. right,

but the OP is about "Muslims," not "Middle-Eastern looking guys."

regardless, dressing like a "Muslim" is the last thing i want to do at an airport. i'm already swarthy enough.

[Sinti]

25. Welcome to DU eachsmallcandle :) n/t

[catmother]

12. i feel the same way. my husband's co-worker who is italian

descent with a jewish last name (her ex husband) gets looked over every time she flies. i don't think it upsets her.

[cigsandcoffee]

15. If it happened to me a lot, I'd get a bit sick of it.

But I'd also feel a certain amount of shame that it was pretty much merited. It must be hard for some Middle Eastern people - and especially Muslims - to reconcile the attention-getting fundamentalists who use their religion for violence and make life harder for all of them.

The Middle Eastern Muslim moderate must have a tough time of things from many different angles, and not just airline security.

[catmother]

17. they sure do. it's only the jihadists that get the attention. the

peaceful muslims don't get much attention at all. :eyes:

[ComerPerro]

32. Profiling is not only racist, its also idiotic

sure, lets give white people a pass because they haven't been terrorists (except for, ah, fuck it, never mind, only muslims are terrorists).

Wait till some white old lady blows up a plane because she hates our government or something like that.

You will be able to thank racial profiling when it happens.

[cigsandcoffee]

38. And what will we thank when a bomber who might have...

...gotten more scrutiny on profiling squeezes through while some harmless old lady get a pat down? That scenario seems more likely than yours.

It is surely quite difficult to find someone who can act very cool and smooth while still being able to kill and die for their cause. I would wager that in the case of Islamic terrorism, the vast bulk of such people will be young, mostly male, very ideological, and very religiously devout. Soldiers, essentially.

That just isn't going to amount to a lot of old white or black ladies, is it?

[ComerPerro]

39. I think everyone should be checked

if these people want to get serious about security, they should have no problem submitting to a pat-down if necessary. I get them quite often, I'm a 24 year old white male, and, unlike other people, I don't mind.

You won't see my ass screaming "check him, not me!"

[cigsandcoffee]

41. The numbers make that impossible.

Just one moderately large airport handles over 50,000 passengers per day. You expect all of them to be patted down or searched?

[ComerPerro]

42. that's where "random" comes into play

If it becomes our official policy to only search "moslem looking people", then we are just begging for a bunch of right wing militias and white supremacist groups to kill us.

[cigsandcoffee]

46. That goes back to the earlier point.

Random searches take policework and instinct directly out of the equation. You might as well be playing the lottery.

One can't help but notice that the near totality of recent airline terrorism threats have been conducted by young Middle Eastern looking men. I can't even think of a time when white supremists or some such went after an airplane.

I would think prudence should dictate that people who fit a profile get a little extra scrutiny. To not do so would seem to have some kind of fairness principle trumping common sense.

[ComerPerro]

47. Then lets start arresting white accountants

[cigsandcoffee]

48. OK, Why? n/t

[ComerPerro]

49. because, staticstically, they are extremely likely

to rip you off, steal your pension, and send thousands to the poorhouse.

[cigsandcoffee]

50. That's absurd. Accountants have corruption in similar...

...numbers to any other profession, such as lawyers, politicians, cops or trade union delegates. And they are federally and state regulated, anyway. A red herring.

We are talking about airliner terrorism here, and the security measures used to prevent it. I can appreciate you wanting to be fair above all else, but fairness can't outwiegh common sense.

[ComerPerro]

51. have all the common sense you want

but, coming from someone in the middle of red-state Kansas, don't be suprised when some rapture-ready, abortion-clinic bombing fundie decides that this nation is headed on the path to Satan and just has to do something about it.

[cigsandcoffee]

52. If that starts becoming a threat to airliners...

...then I reckon such folks will need to be profiled at the security checkpoints. I sure wouldn't base current policy on the idea it might happen anytime soon, and thus use up valuable resources to prevent it.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear that Islamic terrorism is a threat to airline security. No room for doubt there, IMO.

[ComerPerro]

55. so, lets get all them moslem ragheads.

[cigsandcoffee]

56. I believe I've made my point clear.

Your sarcastic inference that I'm supporting a general persecution of and bigotry toward Muslims is both offensive and indicative of your failure to support your argument.

[ComerPerro]

62. hey, no, I'm fine, whatever. You think that they are the only threat we

will ever see, that's fine. Good luck to you.

[cigsandcoffee]

63. I think Islamic terrorism is now the most common threat to airliners.

Perhaps someday small blue aliens from Pluto will decide to blow them up in midflight, but I think it would be folly to expend resources in hopes of preventing that right now.

[ComerPerro]

64. we are always gonna want scapegoats, and we will always be

a racist nation.

I honestly think a lot of this profiling nonsense comes from lazy people wanting to slip past security unscathed while seeing an arab get stripped-searched, because it satisfies they voyeristic desires, reinforces their bigotry, and lets them feel safe and secure.

Time will tell if it works or not.

[treestar]

67. Not a Muslim attack, but geez, just because the Muslims did it

doesn't mean they are the only ones who can. If we over-fixate on Muslims, we could completely miss something else.

It's like we are going all out to prevent Muslim terrorism, but don't give a damn if someone else does it. There is a crazy Japanese terrorist group out there, for example. So look at all the Asians. There are still right wing white supremacists out there, so let's look at all the white people. None of these people are going to make an attack on behalf of the Muslims. So that means they never will?

Frankly it's all hogwash. It happened once, that doesn't mean it has to happen again. It is still going to be the very rare person who does such a thing, period. Timothy McVeigh bombed a federal building, yet we did not react as if every federal building now had to be considered likely to be bombed every day or as if every white male had to be checked over before he could enter a building.

[MADem]

71. No one is suggesting fixating, though

If you profile INTELLIGENTLY, then you change the parameters as circumstances change. You cut your tactics to match the threat. If (INSERT FAITH/INTEREST GROUP HERE) join the jihad, they get included, too.

Right now, the threat du jour is military aged Muslim males with records of suspicious travel, cash they haven't earned, tickets they haven't paid for, and fuzzy reasons for travel. This is not a be-all and end all list--you can vary age, gender, other alarm bells...and country of origin is uninportant--that person could be American, Canadian, Australian, English...but that person will, at least nowadays, be Muslim.

By examining religion as a 'marker,' if you will, EVERYONE gets initially screened (you don't ever see it; it's done with a database). Anyone who is Muslim or of 'undetermined' religion gets weeded into a pile for additional virtual scrutiny. Those with no 'alarms' (no suspicious travel, no masses of money showing up in their bank account from overseas all of a sudden, no recent history of phone calls to countries they've never called before, for example) are waved through, UNLESS they are sweating, furtive, and looking about with darting eyes whilst clutching their carryon tightly (and that goes for EVERYONE getting on the plane). The ones who are identified for an additional look-see might be interviewed by a roving profiler as they wait in line (and either waved off or targeted for a closer look), or pulled aside at the Lose Your Shoes moment upon entering the 'sterile' area.

[madeline_con]

76. Yes, actually, we did "react as if every federal building ...

... now had to be considered likely to be bombed every day..."

[sandnsea]

72. And the next thing I'd do...

is remind myself that just about any 18-35 year old can have a beef to justify blowing up a plane or think they're on some kind of anarchist mission. How long do you think some Columbine type will decide to take it to the next level?

It may be tempting to take a second look at a ME male, but it's incredibly dangerous to not think your way past that and profile the behavior of a terrorist - not just the ethnicity.

[eachsmallcandle]

4. umm

aren't you, kinda, stereotyping Muslims? not all Muslims are swarthy and/or have unkempt beards. in fact, this hottie that i work with -- a Guyanese of Indian descent -- has perfect breasts, a stellar figure, and a cute face to match. oh, and no beard, thankfully. if that's not a description of a stereotypical Muslim bomber, i don't know what is.

[cigsandcoffee]

5. What are perfect breasts?

I'd guess that's in the eye of the beholder, unless you're talking about a pair that fly off in different directions.

[eachsmallcandle]

7. oh.

frame of reference, in case anyone didn't realize i was referring to a woman. :)

[cigsandcoffee]

9. I was just having a bit of fun.

It seemed ironic that you used a stereotype in the process of admonishing the OP for using one.

Please don't mind me, I'm just a bit snarky.

[eachsmallcandle]

13. i don't mind.

i like irony. :)

plus, she really does have perfect breasts. :)

[cigsandcoffee]

14. Well, wear eye protection.

You can't be too careful.

[Ghost in the Machine]

27. one produces milk, juice and sodas for the kids, the other one

produces sweet tea for me? :shrug: sounds perfect to me! :rofl:

[uppityperson]

8. Change "muslim" to "middle eastern" and it would be better

Even though there is no 1 "middle eastern" type, better than Muslim of which there is no type. I don't think I could get my skin dark enough to pass as a black Muslim friend is. Wear a head scarf, dress moderately, these are good things to do.

[cigsandcoffee]

11. They're good things to do if you want security crawling up your ass.

Maybe not so much in America as would happen in Europe, but I bet you'd still be in for a tougher screening.

My activism ends before the body cavity searches start. I'll leave that to more dedicated people.

[madeline_con]

77. Completely missing any Asian Muslim who might want to ...

blow stuff up. :eyes:

[eachsmallcandle]

10. police

are trained to profile behavior, first and foremost.

my guess is, if i was to don a fake beard for the sake of eliciting a response from DHS officers, i'd probably be acting a bit nervous anyway.

i get nervous when i see a swarthy male enter an airplane, as it is. i blame hollywood. and snakes.

[MADem]

16. Stop profiling??? They haven't started!!!!

They're too busy shaking down Euro-grandma on her walker to worry about searching that bearded guy with the prayer rug under his arm.

I think a little more "probability searches" and "intelligent profiling" would benefit the system. This isn't a popular view, but I hold it. It's flat out stupid when they are jerking around Al Gore (like HE's gonna have a bomb on him), Ted Kennedy (actually PLACED on the no-fly list as a GOP joke, he had to call GWB to get it fixed) or some ninety year old man, or a four year old. Why do they bother with these people? Because it's supposed to be "random." Well, bullshit. The bastards trying to blow up planes aren't "randomly" deciding to do just that. We know most of them are between 18 and 45, they are Muslim, they've traveled to Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, or Afghanistan, often via Yemen (locations where militias have training camps) and they are, for the most part, unremarkable. No arrest records, no police involvement, real "under the radar" types. They have jobs and families, and lately, friends and relatives will say after-the-fact, they've gotten "quiet" and "serious."

Now certainly, there's always the possibility that they could recruit some dumb young lovestruck non-Muslim girl to actively, with knowledge aforethought, kill herself and a couple of hundred others with some sort of device, but that would be a tough sell unless she was suicidal to begin with. And they could always try to entice Presbyterian Biff the blond crew-cut football player to sacrifice for the cause, but again, I don't think he'll leap at the chance. Of course, not all Muslim suiciders fit the Muhammad Attah profile--look at Richard Reed, the goofy shoeboy. And those Indonesian club bombers--put Hawaiian shirts on those guys and they'd look like Don Ho's backup singers. And the guys they busted in Singapore a few years back. It's not ethnicity, but it is religion, and it is religion with the added element of curious travel patterns that hold the clues. The Israelis are pretty good at 'intelligent profiling'--they don't hassle the majority, but they do carefully select out people for additional scrutiny.

I get searched EVERY time I fly, while people who meet the age and gender demographic of the 911 crew sail past me without a glance. Has to do with my years living in "enemy territory," I suspect. Whatever. I don't like it, it's absolutely stupid, given that I've served my country for decades, but that makes a shade more sense than bullying an eight year old girl or an old woman who's never flown before and likely never will again, just to keep it "random." "Random" like that makes us Politically Correct, but it doesn't make us SAFER. It pisses people off, it wastes the time of screener assets, and it doesn't do the job it's supposed to do.

[cigsandcoffee]

19. I remember when they wanted to confiscate that one...

...fellow's Congressional Medal of Honor that he'd won for shooting down a pile of Japanese Zeros in WWII. That agent should have been kicked in the ass and sent right out the door, IMO.

I pretty much agree with you, unpopular opinion or not. Being smart about this is more important than some phoney-baloney concept of being fair about it.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. The trouble is, "intelligence" requires intelligence. And money. And work.

It's way cheaper just to convey the illusion of, "we're doing something" by forcing everyone to fly with no toothpaste, eye drops, or bottled water.

Funny, I used to get my luggage searched every time I flew, but ONLY on the East Coast. And this was before 9-11. You know, a hippie-lookin' guy with long hair, (which I guess they must not have in that part of the country?) obviously my suitcase had to be full of weeeeeed, man!


...The security guys and cops always looked so sad and disappointed after they'd rifled through all my shit.

[MADem]

31. That is the challenge of it all. Trying to find people who can make

this sort of task a profession. And do it well. And grow in their job, and improve their skills. And use their noodle and their instincts in carrying out their duties.

The pay sucks, the working conditions are unpleasant, there isn't much motivation to make it a career.

FWIW, I am searched EVERY single time, I repeat, without exception,
EVERY single time I fly.

I'm apparently on one of those WATCH lists....

[ComerPerro]

33. I can't BELIEVE someone like you would think that

I'm sorry, but all I am reading here is "blah blah, don't make we wait in security, check him not me, blah blah, only muslims can be terrorists."

Look.

Radical Islam isn't the only "cause" that would motivate people to commit acts of terrorism.

Was the Unabomber motivated by Islam? What about Tim McVeigh?

They didn't blow up planes, but they also weren't middle-eastern, arab looking muslims either.

[MADem]

40. Ok, let's examine your examples (which aren't very good)

If there were cells of Tim McVeighs, plotting to blow up buildings, how long do you think it would be before random roadblocks in the vicinity of said buildings went up, on the hunt for Tim McVeighs?? Trucks were pulled over randomly, looking for those Timmys behind the wheel?

If there were cadres of UNABOMBERS plotting to mail people packages to kill or maim them, how long do you think it would be before people got shook down prior to mailing a package? Questions, being forced to unwrap your item and submit it to visual inspection? OR, being required to bring the item to the post office unwrapped, and do your wrapping there?

You give as your example two individuals who acted alone. And further, THEY DIDN'T DIE as a result of their acts, unlike 'suicide' bombers. They caught McVeigh and strapped him to a chair and killed him, but he walked away from his explosion.

When we talk about Muslims who are terrorists, we aren't talking about people acting alone. We're talking organized, world-wide, teams, cells, and planning, guys who have decided that they want to blow up the plane you or I are sitting in, without our damned bottled water or eyedrops.

But most importantly, you have a completely mistaken understanding of what a Muslim is and what one looks like. MUSLIM does NOT equal "Middle Eastern" exclusively. Peruse this site, it's instructive: http://www.islamicpopulation.com/

This one is good, too-- http://islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm

[ComerPerro]

44. THEN HOW CAN YOU PROFILE THEM?????

fuck this.

You act like I am the one saying all muslims look alike. You're the one in favor of the racist practice of profiling, not me. So maybe you need a lesson.


Why can't a middle eastern person, one who looks rather white and light-skinned, just dress like an American? Seems to me they would slip by a lot of racially-motivated airport screeners. And they would do a lot of damage.


Besides, you obviously didn't read my post clearly.


I didn't say that there would be Unabomber or Oklahoma City style attackers.

I said that they were motivated to attack the US with acts of terrorism.

Just because white militias (and random loners) didn't hijack planes on 9/11 doesn't mean they wouldn't do it.

My central point was that there are other motivating factors, besides radical fundimentalist Islam, that might lead someone to going on a sucicide mission on a plane.


In case you didn't notice, McVeigh didn't exactly "act alone".

And even if he did, so what?

All it would take to bring down a plane is one guy on a suicide mission.

[MADem]

58. I did read your post clearly

I'm talking about organized, motivated, 'believing in the milk, honey and virgins' groups of suiciders, you're talking about a disaffected loner who may have had a pal or two helping him, and a fruitcake who lived in a cabin with no running water.

And who weren't motivated enough to die for their cause.

There's just no comparison.

The way you profile is through readily available information. You can gripe about this information being available, but it IS available. There's no unringing that bell. And these profiling techniques CAN be applied to your white militias, IF they start acting up and killing hundreds of people at a crack. Until they do, it's not worth it to try to single them out.

The criteria of the profile will change depending on the group committing the acts of mass violence, the act of profiling will stay the same regardless of the population sector to which it is applied.

If you are tithing to a mosque, odds are we can figure out your religion, unless you are a curious sort of altruist. And if you belong to a masjid, trust me, you ARE tithing. It'll be on your tax return as a deduction. Or it will show up on your credit card statement, or on your returned checks.

If you've travelled to Yemen in the past, or any other problematic country, that could be discovered easily, too. You don't leave the country without that going in a database.

From there, all you need is a talented interrogator. Not a lousy one--a professional, who knows how to match words and body language. So a clever profiler might ask if you've ever been to the area before; and if you lie, off goes the alarm. If you answer honestly, the next question might be as to the purpose of your trip? Did someone else buy your ticket? Who? What is their relationship to you?


If the interrogator judges there's no problem, that's the end of it. Otherwise, the subject gets the full treatment, with the bag toss and patdown and so forth.

And the "Middle Eastern person" you reference, light skinned or not, might not be the "problem Muslim." The doctor who is FROM Iran will travel to Iran to see family--that makes sense. The engineer from Syria will go home every so often to kiss his mama. The fat twenty-something from Bakersfield who changes his name from Bobby Dork to Abdul Bin Wahabbi, joins the mosque, and starts wearing clothing that can only be described as 'costumes' and who suddenly gets an urge to scamper off to Yemen, with cash acquired under mysterious circumstances, now, there's someone to look at.

Please look at this post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2456790&mesg_id=2458579 AND do check the link at the bottom of it; you'd be surprised how many MUSLIM terrorists are good ole white bread 'Murcans 'n Euros.

[Clark2008]

35. Speaking of 4-year-olds...

My son is half Arabic (he has an Arabic name, as well. My ex-husband is Arabic - my new husband Jewish. Yeah, I know. I know...) and when he was 3 years old, we were flying from Nashville to New York.

He got yanked out of the line and wanded. How fucking stupid is that? I made them wand me so he'd think that was just what happens at airports.

I guess some idiots might use a baby as a transport, but, come on... I'm a Tennessee gal, traveling, at the time, as a single mother with a toddler. Yeah... we're the perfect suspects! :eyes: What clap-trap.

[MADem]

45. Well, he's in good company

Al Gore got pulled out of line for 'extra screening,' and Ted Kennedy got put on the no-fly list. He had to call the Monkey from Logan to get them to let him get on the plane to go to DC.

Like I say, I am on a watch list, or something. I get "extra screening" EVERY time I fly. I don't like it, but I've learned to deal with it and expect it. They're wasting their time, though, and if they had the capability to do a full automated and computerized background check (no human hands need apply) at time of booking, they'd see that, and be able to devote their energies to examining passengers who have something other than a 'harmless' profile.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

57. Babies HAVE been used as transports before, for drugs. NT

[uppityperson]

65. Which of us gets pulled aside for search, which has taken knives through?

ok, picture is many years old, but still, tell me which gets pulled aside, the father or the daughter? Which one do you find scariest? Who is actually scarier? Who is Muslim? Who isn't?

[MADem]

66. Who has the bank account with unearned income?

Who has the suspicious travel? Who didn't pay for their ticket? Who has a weaselly, weak excuse for their travel to a location that is a way station for the Violence University Madrasah course or the terror training camp? Who frequents a masjid that preaches violence, and/or hangs with the crew that hangs on every word of the Imam who starts his sermon with a group sing-along of Borat's "Throw the Jew Down the Well?"

Look, I am getting tired of explaining, in thread after thread on this subject, that ETHNICITY is NOT the driver here. APPEARANCE, particularly a swarthy, dusky, unibrow, bearded, you-name-the-stereotyped aspect or feature, is not the prime player. Those two you picture above could be serial killers or a nun and a priest on a naughty vacation. It's not their LOOKS, it's a series of factors--if they meet a sufficient number of the factors, they're gonna get interviewed. That's what INTELLIGENT PROFILING focuses on. And GOOD intelligent profiling ensures that, once questions are resolved (that hundred thousand dollars in the bank is from my inheritance, grampa died last year and left it to me) that the person does not CONTINUE to be hassled repeatedly, absent other alarms going off.

When deciding who in the airplane line to check, a person's physical appearance is damn near useless. That swarthy Lebanese guy could be a Maronite. He's not gonna light one up for Usama. That dusky Iranian could be a Zoroastrian, and those guys make peaceniks look aggressive. That Arafattish looking fellah could be a Coptic Christian, or mama mia, a JEW! Or better still, Italian, Greek, Spanish. The Ann Coulter definition of Muslim does NOT WORK.

But, save ASKING, how do we know what they are? Well, an automated background check (tax returns, especially; credit card expenses too) can reveal what house of worship gets charitable contributions from these folks, and one can then extrapolate that they aren't going to be firing up the fuse for the old jihad, or their background merits additional scrutiny. The Muslim who has been visiting grandma and the cousins in Iran every year during his August vacation, leave him alone. The Muslim going to a professional conference, with reservations, registration fees paid, he goes every year, skip him. The fat, pimpled, blond kid with the crocheted fez and stupid "costume" who has five hairs growing out of his chin, an attitude, attendance at a masjid that starts out all prayers with "We will push the Jews into the sea, Inshallah" and a bank account full of dough yet NO tax return on file because he's UN-EM-PLOYED...well, let's give that little fucker the once-over.

Ya wanna play "spot the terrorist?" Which one of these should we be looking out for?

http://www.phaseloop.com.nyud.net:8090/foreignprisoners/img-prisoners/david_hicks_1b.jpg http://www.theage.com.au.nyud.net:8090/ffximage/2005/04/01/jack_narrowweb__200x322.jpg http://network.news.com.au.nyud.net:8090/image/0,10114,5088930,00.jpg

The first guy is David Hicks, the second Joseph Terrence Thomas AKA "Jihad Jack" and the third is Shane Kent. They're all Australians. Muslim converts. Suspicious travel, perhaps a bit of undocumented, unearned cash in the old bank account, that sort of thing. Do a google and see what they've all been up to...

[uppityperson]

70. APPEARANCE...is not the prime player, but it is for us

My father gets searched each time. I don't. I have taken a pocket knife through (by mistake) and not been found in my x-rayed bag. I agree that intellegent profiling is not based solely on appearance, but what happens is profiling based on appearance. No, neither of us is "Muslim". My swarthy father gets extra checks. Thanks to my Germanic mother's coloring, my Danish/Polish great-grandmother's nose, I don't.

Intellegent profiling would take all the factors you quote into consideration.

I posted this in response to your writing, meant it mostly in response to OP's "dress like a Muslim" but posted it under your response somehow instead. Intellegent profiling is needed. I agree with you. What we have is not intellegent.

[sandnsea]

73. Brilliant post

Thank you. Some days... :crazy: ... ya know?

[Shakespeare]

18. Yes, please let me don a head scarf, one of the symbols of oppression.

I don't believe in profiling, but I'm also not going to ignore the fact that most muslim cultures treat women as second class citizens.

Yeah, uuuhhh....no thanks.

[MADem]

22. Second class? That's on a good day!

Here's the pecking order:
Male
Male child (double points for firstborns!)
Female child
The Aged (males first, of course)
Female adult

[Sinti]

26. I once knew a young lady who, while going to school here stopped wearing

her head scarf - then, after a while, went back to wearing it. She said her hair was much, much softer for wearing the head scarf, and she preferred it that way (she did have very lovely long soft hair, I must say). She didn't see it as oppression, but then she did have the option to take it off and that is the difference. :shrug:

[havocmom]

20. Wore a burka once. Some clown working at a state park kept hitting on me

Think I'll go with the beard this time. Should set off my eyes. :rofl:

[MADem]

21. Why you hot ticket, you!!! NT

[havocmom]

23. Who knew yards and yards of cotton were a turn on for some?

Might have been the convertable I was driving.

[MADem]

24. OK, now THAT is a picture no artist could paint!

I hope someone got some photos of that...and if they didn't, you need to recreate the event for posterity!

[havocmom]

30. Not just any ol convertible, a classic Muscle Car rag-top

I looked fast just stopped at a light!

[ninkasi]

28. Please bear with me

This will get a bit complicated. My mother's side of the family has been in this country since the early 1600's. They settled in Virginia, and spread out from there. At some point, there was a man, one of my great-grandfathers, who came from Germany, and whose last name was Fischer. The family tradition held that he was Jewish, but because his wife was not, their children were not considered Jewish. I've heard that being Jewish or not is only passed through the mother, since at many times, with Israel being invaded, the only true parent to pass on the fact of being Jewish, or not, was through the mother.

My grandmother, and her brothers, all looked like people expect Jews to look. The "Fischer nose" was a source of mild joking. Please understand, I'm only passing on what my grandmother, Myra Ethel, told me. This is in no way to criticize people of Jewish descent, or anything approaching it. I am discussing my family.

Now, my dad's family came from Celtic stock, and were typical "black Irish", I suppose, with black hair, dark skin, and dark gray, or brown eyes. The brother 3 years younger than me was asked constantly where his family was from. Was he from the Mideast, or, in the eyes of some, from Italy?

To further complicate matters, I married a naturalized Mexican citizen, but one whose family came from Spain in the 1600's. His family had fair skin, for the most part, but some had olive complexions, and looked as though they could have come from the Mideast. Spain had a huge portion of their population who were from Arab stock. My younger son, with his olive skin, dark eyes, his nose, and his beard, has been mistaken for being from Saudi Arabia, or another Muslim country.

My family members pride themselves on being, for want of a better word, mongrels. We have so many nations contributing to our bloodlines, and that includes native Americans, that we try not to put anybody in neat little categories, prejudging how they should act, or look. So many countries, and so many cultures, have contributed to our genetic makeup, that we refuse to claim either superiority, or inferiority, to anybody else on earth.

I suspect that many Americans share the same diluted bloodlines that my family does. We are from many countries, many cultures, yet stand today as citizens of the U.S., and defy anybody to put us into a neat little category based on where our ancestors came from. The world is shrinking, is depleting our natural resources, and if we are wise, we will begin to put away our differences, and start working with our common interests. We can not afford the luxury of letting hatred rule us, or dictate our relationships with others. God, Yahweh, and Allah permit it. For whichever gods I have left out, please feel free to include them in this post.

[uppityperson]

34. Stop profiling, Dress like a stereotyped Muslim?

This topic has been bothering me for a while and I finally figured out why. We are supposed to fight stereotyping by dressing like a stereotypical someone? Wtf is a "Muslim"? What does a "Muslim" look like? If I am trying to stop profiling, if I do not believe in prejudging someone, how can I dress like a stereotypical something when I do not know if that someone exists?

[Swamp Rat]

36. Maybe we should all dress up like the biggest terrorist on Earth.

[madeline_con]

78. My feet won't fitt in little tiny cowboy boots. n/t

[ComerPerro]

37. that's the OP's point, I belive

and, yes, you know what a "muslim" looks like to a racist who would practice profiling.

According to the doctrine of racial profiling, they all look the same.

So dress like that.

That was what the OP meant, I believe.


Saying "dress like a muslim" was meant to be satirical

[MADem]

75. Indeed...get a load of these "Muslim" outfits in this publication!!!!

http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6231

It's a religion, not a uniformed service, not a nationality, and not an ethnicity.

And it sure as hell isn't a race.

[Hamlette]

43. I've changed my mind, I'm for profiling

after watching countless very old people, some in wheel chairs, going through searches at airports.

Really.

It's better than bombing Iraq.

Israel does it. We should too.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

53. Sadly, they need to be checked too.

If we created a group who would not be checked, a terrorist with a connection to a member of the exempt group would use that connection to smuggle the weapons on board. If the old person is also senile, they may not even know that their son-in-law, who is also a terrorist has hidden something on them.

[cigsandcoffee]

54. Well, we don't need to announce as official policy...

...who is going to be scrutinized. I'd leave it at the judgement of (hopefully) well-trained security employess.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

60. True. Judgment is needed.

Some types would need extra scrutiny, but none automatically excluded. There are some interesting machines that could help, but they raise privacy questions. One of them is a type of X-Ray (I can't remember what it is called.) that doesn't penetrate the body but shows the body and and everything on it. The problem is, it also shows a person's genitalia.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon69.htm

http://www.spy.org.uk/spyblog/2004/11/heathrow_terminal_4_see_under.html

http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/10/xtra-revealing-x-ray-scanner-coming-soon-to-londons-heathrow/
Has picture

[jerry611]

61. Israel profiles and they have the safest airlines in the world

An Israeli jet has not been hijacked or blown up in over 30 years... El Al is the safest airline in the world, by far.

It might be wise if we just examine what they are doing and figure out what we are doing wrong. But nope, there is so much hatred for Israel that no one seems to care about their security policies. But let me tell you this, they are a hell of a lot more experienced dealing with terrorists than we are.

[KAZ]

68. And between 9/11 and the '70s, how many American airlines..

... have been hijacked? And what's the US/El Al total # of flights ratio? After all of the grief the "terrorists" have rained upon Israel outside of using aircraft, hijacking almost seems quaint.

[sandnsea]

74. Where did you get that?

They do NOT profile based on ethnicity or religion alone. They have a massive system in place of which racial profiling is only a part. They also target single women, people who buy tickets at the last minute, and lots lots more. Read this for just a teensy bit of what makes El Al safe.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/10/01/elal-usat.htm

[AngryAmish]

59. There is already a defacto profiling policy

they go through the motions searching grandmothers, etc.

My girlfriend's father is Pakistani. He moved here as a teenager and is a retired US Army officer. He travels overseas on business every 2 months or so.

Since 9/11 he has got through customs without a search twice. He takes it in stride but it pisses his wife off to no end. May I also say he is a Republican.

Funny thing, tho - I am the guy on the no-fly list. I have some relatives in the IRA (I think, I never met them). I can't do electronic check in but other than that (I catch the pat down every other time through) it is no big deal.

[breakaleg]

69. Profiling is a tough issue, but I sometimes feel the efforts of the

airport staff are wasted.

On an inter-island flight in Hawaii, they searched my then 4 year old son and his belongings (little backpack and teddy bear) because his boarding pass was flagged. He had to go into a separate line and be searched. They wouldn't take us instead. And neither of us fit any ethnic groups on any hot lists.

A total waste of resources IMO.