DU religious intolerance, only for one group?

[The Straight Story]

Before you go off slamming me, take into consideration what I have seen here.

I am a christian. Grew up baptist, became pentacostal (my parents weren't too happy, but supported me), then lutheran, agnostic, then atheist, and back to christian after a lot of years of thinking and examining things.

Most the christians I have known in my life were good people who helped out many other people.

Some years back I became a democrat. The big tent party. Gays, wiccans, satanists, greens, you name it they were welcomed here. A good thing mind you. I even went to some wiccan festivals and earth blessings.

I am amazed though at what I see as a welcomed intolerance of christians here - something we don't put up with, generally, when it comes to other faiths.

Here is but one example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2454967#2454976

This guy is protesting having a muslim candidate (islamic):
"We don't waste our time talking to people who hate us," Ali said Sunday.

I can see DU being against fundamentalists, I am as well. I am more of a free will christian. I don't want catholics running the country anymore than I want a southern baptist.

And I, myself, have posted threads poking fun at some idiotic christians (and have pointed out more than once that god slams his own people, the christians, throughout the NT - see the whore of babylon, letters to churches, et al). I am all for constructive criticism and keeping an eye out on the wackos getting in control.

Start talking smack about jews or islamic folks, and it is seen as hate. I ain't talking jews/muslims in the race way either. I mean jews/islamic folks in the religious sense.

Perhaps we see hate as something that can trigger violence towards a group. I can dig that. So why propogate it then against christians?

I posted once an article about an atheist who removed crosses from a roadside memorial at his home, and some painted me as being anti-atheist. Promoting hate and ignorance. Not true, I posted it as it was written and saw it as devoid of religion mostly and more as a human interest story.

I am not saying to coddle christians, hell I am a big critic myself of the faith and it's actions here in our country.

But why is it bad to protest and bring up the errors of others who have a faith not christian??

We worry about christians taking over, but mention a jewish conspiracy (ala zionism and jewish fundamentalism) and it is anti-semitism. Mention Islamic folks doing something, and it is hate speech. Talk about some atheist guy and it is poor understanding on my part of them and their beliefs.

I am just as worried about christians taking over this country as I am islamic fundies or jewish fundies. Or any other dogmatic group one can think of.

So why the pass on other groups? If christians were a small part of the population and made up a large part of the administration, would we mention it? If jewish groups are the same and we express concern over jewish fundies is that anti-semitism? If islamic folks are seeking office, and not denouncing the horrors of islam in several countries, would it worry you?

Christians can do no right here it seems. Jews we can't discuss (though israel we can). Islam we can slam on rare occassions, but we are afraid of the hate it could breed or perhaps that it makes the right sound...well, right about some things.

Maybe I am oversenstive on this issue. I can admit that if I am.

But I have seen and interacted with many christian folks in my 40 years of life who have worked their butts off to help others. They have taken in strangers, fed the homeless, work at pantries, and at times helped me when I was down and out. And that is not to mention the many good deeds of the salvation army and such (which, no matter when you mention such they are tainted with something negative someone will bring up to downplay the positive).

So why is this like this here? If I started a thread about jewish fundies infiltrating our government and wanting to use it to their ends, would I be a conspiracy nut, an anti-semitic, or a concerned citizen seeing undue influence by one group? (and no, I am not meaning to single out jews here - if you have read many of my posts you have seen I have defended Israel many times).

What gives? Am I just seeing things wrong? Or do others see it here as well?

[pitohui]

1. yeah you're just seeing things wrong

i have seen uncounted posts that represent religious intolerance aga. the jews

i have seen not as many, but plenty enough, that represent religious intolerance aga. muslims

if you think christians are something special in getting persecuted, frankly, my response is a horselaugh, you are just being silly

[AutumnMist]

3. So......

When I see a post saying islamic folks are full of shit and it gets pulled, then see one saying the same about christians that is not, I am being silly?

[pitohui]

7. did you alert the offensive post?

i try to make a habit of hitting alert, the mods are not professional psychics

if you are alerting and nothing is being done, then you have a legitimate gripe but...

make sure you're doing your part too

[asthmaticeog]

2. Have you been around much the last week or two?

There've been PLENTY of posts singling out "the Jews" for having too much sway on our government.

[wtmusic]

4. You and your Christian God are intolerant

Both of you believe I am going to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior.

Not to pick on Christianity. All religions (except possibly Buddhism) are the same. So your cries of intolerance ring hollow.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

10. Thanks for proving his point

Didnt think it would take long.

[wtmusic]

12. And thanks for ignoring mine nt

[Freedom_Aflaim]

13. I didnt ignore it.

I was just not pursuaded by it.

[pnwmom]

15. Actually, that is not a universal Christian belief.

Many Christians believe it is likely that God has different ways of approaching different people.

[Dorian Gray]

38. How in the hell

do you know that the OP is intolerant. He/She never claimed that you were going to hell, and not everyone believes that God would send you to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior. That is poppycock, and I find THAT generalization based upon nothing but assumptions to be intolerant.

And, having said that, I believe that some people here can be intolerant of Christianity, but it is no more common than the intolerance of Judaism, Islam, Smokers, and/or Republicans. I think it's unfair to say that we Christians are the only ones who face the rigorous persecution on DU. (Which, I don't actually believe, exists.) There are many voices supporting Christianity, and even more voices who really don't give a crap one way or the other. And, of course, there are those voices that mistrust it. I disagree with their positions, of course, but I don't think that it's necessarily any worse than any other mistrust out there.

Peace!

[Cleita]

5. I thought we just wanted separation of church and state

as set out in our Constitution. Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. I don't believe the Christian businesses that are trying to change our science text books and burn down our family planning clinics are true Christians, but just businesses operated by charlatans for the purpose of keeping their church members frightened while they make money.

Even Bill Moyers an avowed Christian and a great journalist has nothing good to say about these businesses that parade as religions. These are the ones that are being criticized, but since they really aren't religions I don't see that there is any intolerance for true Christians.

[beam me up scottie]

37. We do, you're exactly right. Your post reminds me of this cartoon:

[Swamp Rat]

66. I love that cartoon!

:)

[beam me up scottie]

70. It is a classic, isn't it?

The artist should put it on t-shirts, bumper stickers, mugs, billboards, etc.

How are you?:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

79. Surviving

:hug: And you?

[beam me up scottie]

84. Same here.

That's beautiful.

[davidinalameda]

6. there is prejudice on here against Christians

there are some who want to paint all Christians with one big brush and believe that the religious left is just as bad as the religious right because we're RELIGIOUS

and that goes for Muslims, Jews, etc

anyone who has faith must have something wrong with them because they belive in God or Allah or whomever

[beam me up scottie]

25. Right. The mods just ignore all the broadbrush attacks on believers.

:eyes:

[pnwmom]

44. I don't think the mods ignore the attacks.

But I also think that gratuitous, knee-jerk attacks do happen.

And it doesn't hurt to remind people that they're not useful in a discussion.

[beam me up scottie]

49. So the offending posts are deleted. What more do you want?

No criticism of your religion should be allowed at all?

Anything that can be considered at all offensive to anybody should be banned?

How much of DU would be left if skinner suddenly went all Mr. Roger's Neighborhood on us?

[Random_Australian]

51. What the hell was that? Yeah, there are just as many religion haters

as there are Klansmen on here.

If you think that people are like that, you need a reality check.

There have been no more than a some fools and some trolls out to get the atheists, but of course, the atheists here have been infiltrated, and in their ranks are shadowy cabal members who hate all religious people!

Who the hell are you referring to? Gimme some examples of anti-religious sentiment here, and then I'll start believing you.

[Dem2theMax]

8. I see it here every day. And no one does anything about it.

Which is why DU is not getting a donation from me this go round. I've had enough of the intolerance here. And I'm sure this post will be deleted in seconds.

[AZBlue]

28. I TOTALLY agree with you.

So let them delete us both. Too bad they can't learn from it instead.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Really? And the mods do nothing about it? I guess they're intolerant too.

Funny, they're always deleting offensive posts in other threads.

I bet they're all atheists.

[Dem2theMax]

43. Yes. Really. nt.

[beam me up scottie]

45. How do we get them to ignore the attacks? Are we paying them off?

Really, this is fascinating.

Tell me more.

[Random_Australian]

55. For further details (unless they actually post something)

see

http://www.timecube.com

:)

[Random_Australian]

56. I see your post! Looks like your claims of instant deletion are as strong

as your claims that Christians are victimised.

[Dem2theMax]

64. That's funny. I can't see yours anymore. LOL. nt.

[Random_Australian]

93. I'll take that as an admission of defeat, thankyou, most kind.

:)

[Freedom_Aflaim]

9. You are not imagining things

Nowadays I just ignore any threads related to Christianity because I know I'll find unchecked intolerance.

Just part of the landscape that I've learned to put on ignore. I kindly suggest that you do the same.

(besides, you'll be drowned out within a few more dozen posts and then you'll be declared intolerant youself, shortly before the thread gets locked)

[beam me up scottie]

11. Sorry, but talking about the "jewish conspiracy" IS anti-semitism.

If you see christians being abused on DU, hit alert and let the mods handle it.

Even better, use the functions DU provides for overly sensitive people.


Or won't you be happy until all discussion that criticizes your faith is censored?

[AutumnMist]

59. Hell no

Just saying, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Let's examine all sides fairly.

Some folks ARE worried about jews in power and their fundamentalism. Some are worried about islamic people being elected.

Open discussion seems fair to me.

OOPS - that was me, SS, posting. Did not realize wife was logged into this system. My bad. Channging users.

[never_get_over_it]

14. Nope I'm completely intolerant of all of them.....eom

[Mojorabbit]

16. I am not a christian but I think

fundamentalist wackos are what are being dissed not true christians. Unfortunately it all gets lumped together.

[beam me up scottie]

22. No, actually DUers almost always specify which xians they're discussing.

If they don't, the mods delete the offending posts.

[bling bling]

17. I think Christianity is the only one people see as a real threat.

Islam, Jewish, Buddist, et. al. don't pose any threat of becoming religions that impact our laws and civil rights. Thus, people can look at them, analyze them, and treat them with respect more or less.
If any of those religions above became the overwhelmingly popular religion here the tune would change quickly.

That's just my point of view on the double standard.

Now, my judgement about the double standard is that some people are so raw and vocally and unapologetically anti-Christian that it's damaging to the party. And they feel so passionately about their viewpoint that they really don't care who they offend if it damages the party or not. They're proud to stand up against what they view as a threat.

There is absolutely no doubt that we've lost voters because of this.

[pnwmom]

23. I think you're right, Bling Bling. We have lost voters because

of that.

Do you remember hearing about the city in Canada where there was a proposal to introduce a separate system of Sharia law for Muslims? I wonder what happened to that.

[bling bling]

27. I didn't hear about that.

I don't see how that could possibly work. I'm interested to know what happened to it also.

[pnwmom]

40. Here's some info. The pro-religious courts people lost.

The reason they were considering allowing Sharia for family matters was that in 1991 they enacted a law (which they thought would save Ontario money) that allowed people to get divorces through Jewish or Catholic courts. The Muslims wanted the same thing -- more, I guess, because their family courts handle more than just divorces. Anyway, there were worldwide protests. The final decision was to not cede family matters over to ANY religious courts -- the Catholic and Jewish courts will no longer be able to stand in for the state. (People will still be able to get a "Get" from a Jewish court, but it won't substitute for getting a civil divorce.)

Somewhere I read that Jewish leaders are thinking about appealing this. I think Ontario made the correct decision and hope they'll stick by it.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2485/context/archive

snip

Anticipating a decision from the premier, protests heated up in early September, when organizers staged demonstrations in cities across Canada and Europe, including Paris, Amsterdam and Rome.

The premier also came under pressure from his own caucus, including 17 female members who reportedly pointed out that women's rights could not be protected from Sharia provisions and urged all religious-based arbitration be dropped. "We were a loud voice in the final decision," one caucus member told a Toronto newspaper.

On Sept. 10, a group of 10 prominent Canadian women, including writer Margaret Atwood and Flora MacDonald, a former member of Parliament, issued an open letter to McGuinty. They predicted that religious arbitration would lead to human-rights abuses, particularly for women and children, and undermine the separation of religion from the state.

The next day McGuinty announced there would be no Sharia law in Ontario. Not only that, there would no longer be any religious arbitration of any kind. "There will be one law for all Ontarians," he said.

SNIP

[bling bling]

68. I read the whole article.

Thanks for the link. The subject of religion is fascinating to me, even though I'm not religios (if anything, I would say I believe in and try to follow the ways of Taoism). I'm particularly interested in religion and it's impact on women. I've done a great deal of study and research on the subject of women throughout the history of Christianity. It's one of the most interesting research topics I've ever engaged in. It's made me quite concerned about keeping my eyes open to the actions of the fundamentalist right-wing Republicans. Women's rights are most definitely jeopardized by having people like that in positions of power.

[beam me up scottie]

60. Funny, the same talking point is used by right wing pundits all the time.

Prove it.

How many Democrats have switched parties because of our intolerance of religion?

[bling bling]

76. What's that supposed to mean?

I'm tired of people comparing things said by legitimate Dems on DU to right wing pundits, and stated in a skeptical and accusatory, "hmmmmmmmmmmm, that's funny, you sound JUST like the right wingers or freepers when you say that."

It really doesn't make me want to launch onto Google's website and spend my time searching out articles where people have stated that they felt like the Democratic party belittled them for their beliefs so they didn't want to vote for the Dems. Though I'm tempted to prove my statement and answer your challenge, I don't know how much I really care if you believe we've lost voters or not because you sounded skeptical of my motives for stating that in the first place.

And lastly, did I say they switched parties? I thought I said we've "lost votes" -- that's what I meant to say anyway. It's late and I'm tired.

[beam me up scottie]

88. It means prove it. OReilly and Coulter haven't been able to, can you?

I'm sick and tired of the whining done by the majority about how oppressed they are by the minority.

Christians aren't voting for Dems because we are intolerant of them?

Pathetic.

If it wasn't so selfish and myopic, it would be laughable.

[Selatius]

18. Prejudice is a problem that plagues humanity

Regardless of religion.

The reason the Founders separated the church and the state was to avoid wedging the state among different prejudices.

There will always be "low grades" who bathe in prejudice, but there are also those who attempt to fight it as well.

If you see religious intolerance, then hit the alert button and be done with it.

[scarletwoman]

19. Actually, it's just plain intolerance of religion.

The only reason why it may seem to apply more to Christianity is that there's just statistically more of you around here. Most of the folks who are intolerant of religion are generally equal opportunity intolerators.

sw

[wtmusic]

26. And really not even that

but intolerance of religious people who can't keep it to themselves, who have to be constantly seeking subtle ways to foist it on you and your family.

'Equal Opportunity Intolerators"...hehe. :thumbsup:

[Random_Australian]

57. Wow, thanks. Until you dreamed it up, I never even knew that DU was

haunted by evil anti-religionists.

And all those KKK members here! The board is flooded with them!

[azurnoir]

20. Who gets bashed

depends on whats going on at the moment. I saw plenty of anti-Muslim sentiment during the "cartoon riots". When it comes to Christians some of the problem arises because of the fact that there is not an official name for the fundamentalist branch that is influencing politics today, so all christians get lumped up with it. I believe the idea "great Jewish conspiracy" was part of the Nazi excuse for genocide and is called anti-Semitic for that reason its origins are indeed anti-Semitic.

[opiate69]

21. Help me out here...

could you please point out the "religious intolerance" in the thread you linked to, because frankly, I'm not seeing it...?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

24. It's really only a few posters

They're just very persistent and have been known to swarm like angry yellow jackets when they feel threatened.

If you'd like to get better acquainted with them skip over to the Religion/Theology forum and you'll see they are, if nothing else, consistent in their beliefs.

Personally, I don't care what you believe so long as you don't inflict your choices on me or my government. I simply prefer to make my own choices about my spiritual journey or lack thereof.

[beam me up scottie]

29. Oh brother, here we go again. I am intolerant of organized religion.

So what?

Why should liberals be prevented from criticizing religion because it upsets you?

[bling bling]

32. Shouldn't we try to not upset and offend each other, though?

I always hate the threads that are talking about how women are abused by men -- the posts can get pretty vicious against men. Sometimes male DU'ers will mention that they feel offended by the comments and feel they are being automatically grouped into a class with all the "bad" men. The unfortunate response to these guys is usually something like "when you have to deal with a man beating you up and you can't leave him because he'll kill you, then come talk to us about how bad you have it", or some similar post scoffing that the guy has the gall to be offended.

That always turns me off. The guy was telling them straight out that he was offended and they were basically telling him that's too bad and fuck off. Why couldn't they just take it for what it is and accept the "unthinkable" possibility that he REALLY WAS offended and try not to continue making the type of comments that were upsetting the men on the board? That dismissive, righteous attitude just seemed really disrespectful and kind of bullying, too.

So, if Christians here mention that they feel offended it seems like the most diplomatic first response would be to take their comments into consideration and consider the possibility that they're not just being whiny but really are indeed offended. Maybe the context or words used could be altered so as not to continue upsetting people, I don't see what would be too bad about that.

edited for spelling, grammar, clarity, etc.

[beam me up scottie]

36. The op posts a thread like this every week. He wants DU censored.

THe mods are VERY strict when it comes to religion, they do not tolerate broadbrush smears.

Period.

If some people can't handle criticism of their religion, they shouldn't be posting on a political board, because until their fellow believers stop being a threat to the rest of us, it's going to be discussed.

[The Straight Story]

69. BWAHAHAHAHA Censored? Hell no. Opposite of that.

I say bring it all on.

Bring on the threads about the jews (the fundie ones) trying to control the govt.

Or about the islamic nut jobs spewing jihad.

I am cool with em all.

I just see, if anything, censorship here when we attack other groups.

Censorship is the last thing I am calling for.

[beam me up scottie]

71. You support antisemitism and islamaphobia on DU. How very christian of you

What a shock. :eyes:

[The Straight Story]

74. I don't support it,

I just say lets be fair.

Jews, islamic folks, etc all are imperfect as well.

Do you support christianphobia here?

[beam me up scottie]

78. "christianphobia"? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

That's hysterical!

"christianphobia"

:spray:

I can't stand it!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[The Straight Story]

85. Which makes my point

criticizing religious groups here is not a phobia now is it?

So when I criticize muslim wackos, I am not islamaphobic. I am being practical and pointing out the dangers of such groups and their search for power.

Unless, of course, it makes bush look good or right. Then it is wrong to criticize people and we should endorse their crazy ass ways... :)

[beam me up scottie]

92. Ask the mods why they deleted your post, don't take it out on atheists.

Oh, I forgot, that's your hobby.

[The Straight Story]

100. Um, was not my post

was a reply to one of my posts. Which, btw, I alerted the mods on. Try again.

[beam me up scottie]

102. An intolerant post made by a christian was deleted and you blame us.

You should write to O'Reilly, he'd be thrilled to death to tell your sob story.

[Random_Australian]

61. I've done a lot. I've even asked people how they would prefer I put it.

However, there are those who just want license to shit on atheists and not be called on it.

[The Straight Story]

87. Having been an atheist for several years,

I can understand the crap you put up with. From family, friends, coworkers, etc. I would expect that on DU one might find some comfort in their ideals without being attacked. Sadly that is not always the case.

[beam me up scottie]

96. You mean the crap from christians like you who frame us?

Your whole thread is in retaliation for a deleted post that had NOTHING to do with non-christians.

[Random_Australian]

98. Strangely, in Australia, there is no antiatheist sentiment.

Almost everywhere else in the world it is absent.

It is only on DU I find this - (And a couple of other websites) - so at least I can walk away.

The stories of atheists in America, especially those in the Bible belt, scare and sadden me. honestly.

I just do what I can to make this place habitable for everyone - except those who want 'others' out.

[The Straight Story]

72. Wow, what were you reading?

I was talking about how it is easier here to rip on one group vs others.

I ain't no fan of many an organized religion. I have not been to church in many years myself because I don't like it myself (organized religion).

I think it should be kept personal, out of govt.

I also think though we need to investigate all faiths and their roles in government, the world, etc, without simply worrying only about one and being scared to piss off the others.

Let's see more threads about jews, buddhists, islam, et al. I am all for open discussion.

My point was that we don't have open discussion on all.

I had one post someone made tonight alerted on and deleted because it was 'derogatory' towards muslims (though anyone could tell the guy meant islam).

We don't see that same level of moderating on christians here. And that is fine - as long as we are fair across the board in our condemnation of groups.

Start posting anti-islam stuff and you are promoting bush and hatred. How does that work??

[beam me up scottie]

83. So you posted this flamebait because your anti-islamic post was deleted.

I feel sorry for you.

Christians own everything and control all three branches of the government and you're still whining about how persecuted you are.

Your issues are way bigger than DU.

[The Straight Story]

95. LOL not whining about persecution, you might like that eh?

Talking about fairness of criticizing all groups of faith and dogma.

Maybe I worry about the fundie jews who control israel having undue influence in our government (like I think the freakin fundies do). One is ok to attack and discuss, the other is seen as 'anti-semitism'.

Funny how we send a lot of money and weapons to a theocracy, and we also have members of that same religious group being influential in our own government. There are liberal jews and conservative ones, there are those in sects of the conservative jewish community who would use our government for their own ends.

Call em out here - probably deleted, tombstoned, or at the minimum be labeled as a hateful anti-semite.

You want to talk power and religion?? Which group has more powerful positions in our government, no matter if it was clinton or bush in power?

I ain't saying there is a conspiracy in it all, but if I say 'them jews is out to get us' it is looked down on. If I say 'them christians is out to get us' it seems ok.

Why?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mockmonkey]

30. I have to wonder

How many of those intolerant towards Christians were brought up in a Christian household. Most of them I assume.

[TahitiNut]

33. There's a big difference between anti-belief and anti-believer.

While I regard the former as a marginally acceptable topic, I regard the latter as bigotry. That said, much of what is purported to be sectarian is actually secular. It seems to me that the secular ideologies that mask themselves as 'religion' are being less than honest. Those who adhere to a secular belief and who wish to quash criticisms of that belief under the guise of "religious intolerance" are offending not only their faith but civil discourse.

[fishwax]

34. I think you're seeing it wrong

Certainly there are a few posters who are explicitly critical of all christians and of the idea of christianity, but I think they are relatively few, and that most of the posts which are critical of christianity are critical of specific manifestations, practitioners, or historical tendencies of christianity. (Many of these criticisms would be echoed by many liberal christians anyway.)

I also think there are plenty of posts critical of the muslim and jewish faiths/faithful. Perhaps not as frequently as posts about christianity, but that would only make sense given the prominent position conservative christians currently hold in the public debate.

[Klapaucius]

35. I have no problem with you....

Here's what I have a problem with....

I have a problem with people who feel their beliefs should be legislated into laws that apply to everyone. I have a problem with the fact that for a vast majority of people, accepting their beliefs without any proof or evidence robs them of some portion of their reason. That applies equally to all faiths. I don't care what your beliefs are.

I have a problem with a president who believes in the end times, and seems to be actively working towards it. I have a problem with what seems to be a Christian/Arab/Jewish war fomenting in the middle east over whose version of god is better than the other factions. I have a problem with people on this side of the pond thinking they know whats good for people on the other side of the pond.

I think it's hypocritical to expect the Muslims to reign in their extremists, when we won't reign in ours. I'm not Christian, I'm agnostic. I might be called a militant agnostic. *I* don't know, and frankly, you don't, either, so get off yer damn high horse. I am trying to leave this a better place than when I found it. That seems to be reasonable to me, and I don't need a fear of hell, just a sense of common courtesy, to think that that's a good idea. I don't like being demonized because folks can't accept that I have no need of a deity to worship. It's asinine. My ex, during our marriage, said that she thought I lived a sad life because I had nothing to live for. I had plenty to live for... the love of a good woman, the love of my son. Because I didn't share her beliefs, she proceeded to make my life a living hell, lying to the authorities, who took her word at face value because she was Christian. Recent polls show atheists/agnostics to be on the low end of trust for most people, because we've been demonized in every venue possible.

Although the majority of my circle of friends are non-religious, I do have a true and abiding respect for those Christians who do walk the walk. However, they are few and far between. The majority of them that I've met or interacted with seem to use it as a social bludgeon to make themselves out as being better than everyone else, and having the moral high ground ( quite frankly, unless I've known the person for years.... I try not to associate with religious folk, at least within the close circle of my friends, for the previously stated reasons). You have to understand though, that in the US, the vast majority of folks being Christian, it tends to be the one faith that people are most familiar with, that they deal with every day. Those who are in areas where there might be a concentration of other faiths may have more familiarity with them. For the vast majority of people in the US, though, the Christians hold the reins of power, from the pulpit to the council chamber, to the judge that sentences the guy that broke into your house last week.

Here's another point that I'd like to make... In your post above, you essentially slag off on Catholics. You have hundreds/thousands of different denominations, all of them saying that they are the one true denomination. I can't have much respect for any religion that would slag it's own adherents, even if they believe in slightly different things. All religion does is create divisions between people. It's being used as a divisive force for political control. True of any other religion, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian. At least that is my own view.

What I want to see from Christians is acceptance not only of people of other faiths, but people of no faith whatsoever. I want them to reign in people like Robertson and Falwell. I want those two to proclaim something and hear a resounding "BULLSHIT!" from the rest of the denominations.

Anyway, I'm up late, so it's time to head to bed.

K.

[Lorax]

41. Well said...

I agree with you completely.

[The Straight Story]

63. Don't really have an issue with what you said

And for being up late, you did a good job :)

[ConsAreLiars]

39. If you are a fundie nutcase hatemonger you will not enjoy DU.

On the other hand, if you are prone to over-broad generalizations and a sense of perpetual victimization, you will probably not enjoy any aspect of your life. On the other, other hand, if you get off on posing silly questions and being attended to as if you made some sense, enjoy your stay.

[Wiley50]

42. Right on, Bro! Us Cosmic Spagetti Monsterists

just get no respect at all.


No Seriously

If thise who claim these religons
didn't claim all the power
there would be no problem

My God's better than your God
My God's better than all
My God'S BETTER cause
He/She eats all the rest
My God's better than yours

Just goes with the territory, I guess

[GoddessOfGuinness]

46. I can only speak for myself...

I have a tendency to be intolerant of those who are intolerant themselves. I'm not particular about their religious beliefs, as long as they aren't attempting to push them on the rest of society. Sadly, I've often witnessed "christian" volunteers who see every opportunity to help as an invitation to spew their beliefs about. There are probably evangelical types like this in every religion; but I've only met those who call themselves christian.

I must confess that I lack respect for those of any religion who dismiss science as godless, and therefore evil.

[Wiley50]

47. BTW, What about the GAY Story?

What do you mean by your moniker?

[The Straight Story]

65. The Movie

A David Lynch film, his only G rated one I can recall off hand.

[me b zola]

48. I think that you are seeing things wrong

It reminds me of men who rather than listen to the issues that women have to deal with, will begin spouting how those women are "men haters" or "feminazis"---or, for that matter, any other member of a minority group that wants to be heard. You may not like what you hear--becuase people in the "majority" all want to hear what benevelent rulers they are--but the fact is that people in minority groups have legitimate gripes and you may not be comfortable when you hear them.

Sorry, "christianity" is being used as a cultural and political weapon, so I do not take it personally when someone says something against it. It would be like accusing someone of being anti-American for speaking out against the policies of bush*inc.

[beam me up scottie]

53. rAmen, me b zola!

That's EXACTLY what it's like.

:applause:

[The Straight Story]

67. I am not disagreeing with that

I say bring it all on when it comes to various faiths and issues.

Why single out one?

Maybe I have problems with them jewish folk in government. Is that ok as well to bitch about?

[beam me up scottie]

75. The jewish conspiracy thing again? And you complain about us?

Sounds like you're more upset about not being allowed to talk about your pet prejudices than the fact that DUers criticize your religion.

[Evoman]

86. What jewish folk in government do you have a problem with?

Is there that many of them?

[longship]

50. Comments from an atheist.

I am not against religion, or anybody else having a theistic belief.

However, I have a very big problem with theists using their beliefs as a basis for a political position.

I also have a *huge* problem with claims that as an atheist:

1. I have no basis for morality. I.E., one must believe in a sky fairy to know right from wrong. This is demonstrably false.

2. I am in any way against other people practicing their theistic beliefs the way they see fit. (I do draw a line on this. Their right to practice their theism ends when it in any way interferes with my right to reject theism.)

I am currently negoitating with a charter school for employment as a mathematics teacher. This is a "Christian" school, but they take money from the government, so they cannot discriminate in employment. I am not only comfortable with this, I am actively pursuing this job (and fully expect to be hired).

As long as the school administrators understand that I am being hired for my mathematical and teaching expertise and not my theological training (which ended some forty-plus years ago) I should be hired. From all indications, this is the case.

As far as politics are concerned, I am equally uncomfortable with the US's blind support for Israel as I am for the current regime's support for a fundementalist agenda. I utterly reject the concept that a sky fairy has given any country the right to any land to the exclusion of others who might not believe in the same sky fairy.

This is very simple. People have the right to live where they want. Drawing lines and making the pronouncement that a particular part of the planet is only for those people who adhere to a particular theistic (or even atheistic) viewpoint is an outrageous crime against mankind.

I blame all sides in the Middle East for the violence and intolerance there. I condemn my own country for enabling any side in this conflict. At a risk of exposing myself as a hypocrite, I would prefer that these theistic factions adhere to their teachings which, above all, is one of peace and tolerance, not death and destruction.

Above all, I am very puzzled why an atheist has to point these things out to people who, above all, portray themselves as above us atheists.

Just some random thoughts.

Peace.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. So, you're saying that Far Right Christian Fundamentalists *aren't* trying

to use the Government for Theocratic aims?

Really? Wow. That's a relief. Because here, I thought we had people trying to criminalize abortion and the birth control pill. I thought we had folks trying to make it easier for pharmacists to lecture women or interrogate them about their marital status or sex habits before filling prescriptions. I thought we had legions of televangelists mobilizing millions to stick their noses into other people's sex lives or end-of-life decisions.

Phew. Terri Schiavo, The FDA, Those Clinic Bombings.. what a relief to know it was all in my head!

And I am SO relieved that there aren't people in, say, Kansas, who want to junk the teaching of Science in Public Schools in favor of a bunch of flarm regarding a 6,000 Year Old Earth and Dinosaurs on "Noah's Ark"...

To accuse Far Right Christian Fundamentalists of -not just wanting but having- undue influence in our Government isn't "bigotry", it's CLARITY. It's REALISM.

And, again, we have folks on this board who want it both ways- they squeal and protest that those people don't represent "all Christians" (Guess what- I KNOW they don't) and that the "religious left" needs to be distinguished from the Religious Right.. All of which I agree with. But then, when Far Right Fundamentalist Christians are legitimately slammed here (people we're not supposed to confuse 'em with, remember?), they invariably start whining about how THEY are feeling persecuted.

You can't have it both ways. Either attacks on Robertson and Falwell and Shrub's "Presidential prayer team" are attacks on you and your faith, because the two are indistinguishable, or they aren't. You can't keep one foot in both arguments just because it suits you.

And unfortunately, as always, you have the folks who aren't used to dealing with outspoken atheists in their daily lives -because in "normal" American society, we're expected to shut the hell up about it- and as such they take anyone clearly and unapologetically saying "I don't believe in God" as a personal attack.

But in my experience, broad brush slams against ALL Christians aren't tolerated here, any more than they are tolerated against other groups.

[The Straight Story]

77. Ummmm, no. They are. And they scare me too.

So do other groups.

Was not talking about the US and what groups here are trying to do. Was talking about DU....

Sheesh.

[cigsandcoffee]

54. I think some people see anti-Islamic threads as racist attacks...

...on "brown people." Christianity is (wrongly) seen as a "white," religion, which removes the racial angle, and frees up the criticism from potential charges of racism.

Personally, I think it's racist to not separate faith from ethnicity, but what do I know?

[BlooInBloo]

58. oh. my. god. Christians rule the world, and they're still complaining.

Jesus, please save me from your followers!

[Bucky]

62. Thank you. In part I agree. But I think you paint too broadly

Yes, there are those who are intolerant of Christian's viewpoints while they don't criticize other religious conservatives for equal offenses. But I think that's just a vocal minority. The big problem is when we try to distinguish people by religious affiliation. I think it's more useful--and offers better insight--if you ignore doctrinal and denominational questions and just look at what policies people champion.

I dislike the predictable anti-Christian bashing that I see now and then on DU. But such people are mostly irrelevent while most Democrats I've met are respectful of all religions, don't engage in adolescent atheist-sophistry, and mostly want to keep faith out of political discussions. They just aren't as noisy or strident as the Christian-bashers.

[Swamp Rat]

73. I'ma skeert!

:scared:

[The Straight Story]

80. You OUGHT to be scared of christian fundies in this country

they are wacko.

They ain't the only wacko group though....

[Swamp Rat]

82. Dat's my point

Dem fundies scare da crap outta me!

Dis nutjob is in Israel tryin' to start Armageddon!:

[charlie]

91. Swampie!

Scholar of all things Lizard-o. Photoshop maven extraordinaire.

I'd like to introduce you to an old-skool net kook, Wiolawa:

http://www.wiolawapress.com

She's been thrilling us for years with her battles against the Drac Lizards, armed with the finest cutting-edge investigative tools -- Photoshop solarize and edge filters. Pack a lunch and bring a rope, the site is as bottomless as her insanity.

[Swamp Rat]

97. LOL!

That's hilarious! :D

"1974..left for OMAHA NEBRASKA.. BOYSTOWN .divorced my husband TOM,who became MIND CONTROLLED in Scientology"

[Evoman]

81. Um...I have seen just as many thread attacking

moslems, Jews, and atheists as much as christians. In fact, I have seen a lot less broad-brushing of christians, as many of the anti-christian posts tend to be specifically aimed at right wing christians.

Hey, and at least nobody has had any discussions about kicking christians out of the democratic party. Brother, that would seem to be a lot more like "persecution" than talking about whether Christ existed or not.

I don't know what your problem is. I mean, isn't it natural for there to be some people upset about christianity since a big portion of Americas problem is christian in nature (ie.e the Christian bush cabal and the fundie right)? I have really never seen an attack on liberal christianity on DU....and seeing how most of the mods, and a huge portion of DU posters are christian, the persecution act is starting to wear a little thin.

[Swamp Rat]

89. "I have really never seen an attack on liberal christianity on DU."

That's a really good point. That is my observation as well. :hi:

[The Straight Story]

90. Well maybe I am missing something here then

One someone calls muslims names the post might well get deleted and the person tombstoned (happened today on a thread of mine). Now I noted (and I did alert on it) that the person most likely meant islamic rather then muslim (it happens, like saying all jews are jewish, they aren't).

Had the person come out saying the same things against christians though, I am pretty sure it would stand.

We need to criticize faiths, beliefs, dogmas, etc. ALL of them. It just seems to me some are more acceptable here than others.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Straight Story]

99. I got into trouble?

Where, When?

Did I say constantly, If I did my bad. I retract it. Though a case could be made for it....

You keep trying to dance around the point,I thought better of you. But then perhaps I confused you with zhade or someone else who actually discussed things without trying to skirt the issues.

We do, and have had, a problem here where other faiths are given a pass. Is fairness too much to ask, or do you only think christians are the problems and all other groups are real cool?

[Evoman]

103. Post something about muslem fundamentalists

and I doubt your posts will get deleted. Or right wing muslems. But posts on both jewish people and muslim people tend to be of the broad brush variety. Anti-christian posts are almost exclusively rants on the right wing christians. Thats the big difference.

[Broken_Hero]

104. Locking

If you have any issues with this lock, contact admins...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html