Are the poor being screwed over in the US in your opinion?? (rant)

[The Straight Story]

You haven't got much money, so you pay one bill one month, another the next. Your credit rating goes down.

Car insurance: I make decent money now, have a stable company I am with, but my credit sucks from previous issues. Only had one ticket in 20 years, and that was expired tags on wifes (now X, and deceased) car (I took hers to work that day as I had a flat and did not know she forgot to put her sticker on).

I went and looked at some car insurance quotes, and they were all jacked up because of a bad credit score. I compared with a friend of mine with a dui, and mine was only a few dollars cheaper than his at same company.

This is just one example, of hundreds probably, where I see that poor people can and will be always screwed. They have a hard time getting their credit rating up (they are just trying to live for chrissakes) so everything they do costs more. Need a loan to keep from being evicted? Bank won't help you, go to payday loans and get jacked.

Need a new car? Used one? No sweet deals for you, you are lucky if you can get one at all. So what if yours is broke down and you need a way to work, suffer.

You were depressed, made some bad decisions. Couldn't get the meds you need to help with the depression and dug yourself in deeper. Sorry, we can't/won't help you. Only folks with jobs that have insurance can afford the meds you need, and since your credit is bad - well some places won't hire you at all (and I have applied for jobs in the past that run credit scores on you).

You make a mistake. Screw you. Unless you are a big company that fails a few times, then the feds will pump some cash into you.

Want money to research something, anything? Sure, we can cover that. Want some money to be able to live? Nope, we ain't investing in some americans.

HERE IS WHAT I REALLY DON'T GET:

Some asswipe in the govt or big business gets busted, and says he made a mistake, please forgive em. Some company mismanages it's funds and wants help. Some guy at the pentagon wants a new billion dollar bomber. Oh the list goes on.

And they get it, or expect that they should.

You wanna invest in america and make it better? Invest in the people that gave you your jobs, not the wars and big companies. In a capitalist society those companies should fend for themselves, that is the risk they take when they go into business. People already are alive and wanting to make it, why not invest in them first, and the risk takers last?

People - JUST LIKE COMPANIES - make bad choices. I would rather bail out someone, then some thing.

end of my rant....

[Deja Q]

1. How DARE you point out foibles in our compassionate, Christian nation?

:sarcasm:

[The Straight Story]

3. As a christian myself I am appalled

at the crap I see.

It's no wonder god kicked the church's ass in the OT and NT, and called it the whore of babylon.

Funny - the biggest critic of the church has always been the bible :) Some people never listen.

[patrice]

40. Jesus died because he resisted his church. n/t

[DireStrike]

2. Exactly, this is a socialist country.

Socialism for the rich and the corporations, capitalism for the poor.

[mnhtnbb]

63. Actually it's socialized risk for the capitalists and privatized profits

The government bails out the big corporations--or gives them tax breaks, but makes sure they keep their profits.

[fishwax]

70. socialized risks and privatized profits

nice :thumbsup:

[tbyg52]

87. True, and disgusting

Them that's got shall have, them that's not shall lose.

[Monkeyman]

4. Rant

Do to Bush's budget cuts homeless veterans make up 33% of all the homeless. Bush and boys cutting brain injury reseach by 50%. Over 600,000 veterans denied or put on huge waiting list last year alone. Troops being sent back to Iraq with PTSD on Meds. Returning troops with PTSD being denied. Watching a kids bleed from the gums because they used DU shells. Much more just getting to dam angry

[patrice]

5. Our whole economic system depends upon the poor accepting

a less than fair wage.

If the Poor got together somehow and formed a Union and refused to work for what they are paid (i.e. took care of one another, raised their own food, made up for the lack of jobs somehow - kind of like Hezbollah was doing for the Lebonese), as I was saying, if the Poor refused to work for what they are paid, our system would CRASH.

The difference between what the Working Poor make, 5.15 - 7.00 @ hr, and what is needed to have a basic life in America, $10.00 @ hr?, is a subsidy that the Poor pay to those who make money off of people without decent wages, Education and Health Care.

[Poppyseedman]

7. Anarchy

most surely is not the answer for the poor

[patrice]

8. I'm not proposing anarchy.

"Getting together" means Organize and stand up for yourself.

[Poppyseedman]

11. if the Poor refused to work for what they are paid, our system would CRASH

sounds like anarchy to me. Maybe I was reading too much into what you were saying

[patrice]

20. I was suggesting that if they refused to the point that "the system"

was actually inconvenienced so it couldn't conduct business as usual, rather than killing the goose that laid the golden egg, i.e. CRASH, the powers that be would pay them more.

[Selatius]

49. The system wouldn't crash; it would find a new equilibrium

The oldest anarchists were socialists. They weren't socialists of the Marxist kind or the statist kind. They just didn't feel the best avenue of change was through the state, since they argued the state has always been a tool of oppression. Popular organization and collective action was and continues to be one of the cardinal principles of libertarian socialism.

[rman]

58. Sounds more like National Strike,

which might cause collapse of predatory capitalism.

[tbyg52]

88. It would only crash

if the corporations let it, which they wouldn't.

[acmejack]

13. How did you conclude the poster was espousing anarchy?

I see no such sentiments suggested.

edit: ah, a game of post tag! In way of reply to laborers refusing to work for what they are paid, I would say it sounds like a labor negotiation to me!

[earth mom]

19. Since when is forming a Union anarchy?!

Sorry, but that sounds like something * & his fellow thugs would spew out to keep the masses down and control them. Nothing is accomplished without people stepping up and saying HELL NO! That's what every Union in this country had to do and should still be doing instead of bowing and scraping to the powers that be because they get so snarly mean and nasty about it! People need to be brave and stand the hell up! Just like previous generations did. Otherwise pretty soon EVERYONE in this country who isn't FILTHY RICH will be making $5 bucks or less an hour! :grr:

[theHandpuppet]

53. Rant of the day!!

Good on ya, GoldenRule! :headbang:

[earth mom]

83. Thanks, but if you noticed down thread...

I posted that I'm also afraid of the reich wing "detention" camps.

And what I should have added to that post was this: That we must be strong and stand up like we are doing here on DU right now and anywhere else we think it will make a difference. Because if we don't...we could easily end up in those camps! Just like what happened to the Jews and others in Germany by the Nazi's. People didn't speak up, or fight back in time to stop them. And millions of innocent people were horrifically killed. Bush & his thugs are NO different. It's imperative that we speak up-NOW!

[me b zola]

34. Labor unions = anarchy?

The working poor banding together to refuse unsafe, unfair work conditions and wages is how the labor unions created change in the work force. Do you have something against that?

[datasuspect]

60. that would have absolutely nothing to do with the common

misperception of anarchy, as you are implying. nanely, that it would result in lawlessness.

the poor banding together to help themselves is the ONE THING THROUGHOUT HISTORY the wealthy have ALWAYS FEARED THE MOST. it is an imperative to keep the poor divided and ignorant, so they never do something like the OP is suggesting.

[Breeze54]

10. I understand what you mean but

there would just be others to take those jobs.
And $10 per hour is not enough to live on these days, at all!

[Jed Dilligan]

73. I think you have it backwards

Instead of refusing to work for what they are paid, people should refuse to pay back what they are told that they owe. That would really crash the system.

[Breeze54]

6. Righteous and Right On Rant!

Thank you for saying it! It's the truth!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:




Edited to add:
PS. Don't forget the corporations are now "individuals"! :wtf:

[The Straight Story]

14. I was real poor at one time

On welfare and worker's comp. Worker's comp was not paying (red tape) and I supported a family of five (myself included). So I got some welfare, then it was cutoff when I got a check from worker's comp, and it went back and forth for almost 2 years.

My marriage went downhill in all this. Now, many years later (>10) the state is telling me I have to repay some of that welfare I got because I was double paid by workers comp (and the whole thing started when they lost my paperwork, I later won the court case).

After my divorce, the county/state was after me for child support. Which I paid. The X and her new man adopted the kids and never sent the paperwork to state. So I overpaid by 2k. Finally someone listened to me and looked up the case, and found out I was not lying all this time and was right. So would I get my money back? They said it was not likely. They promised to withhold the X's state income tax to pay me, which they never did (not that I cared really, just the principle of the matter - I would have jailed had I not paid, but she did not let me see the kids, lied to the courts, and then withheld the documentation from the courts after adoption).

After I left she kept bills in my name, which racked up more debt for me and worse credit rating.

I remember, shortly before I left her, I had OD'd on some pills. Was in the hospital psych ward a week, and got out. Got home and the water company sent me a letter they were shutting it off next day. I went down there personally and talked to the city manager about my situation and he did not really care, I needed money tomorrow or else.

My company fired me while I was on workers comp because the people at worker's comp lost my paperwork I took down to them from new doctor keeping me off work (old dr said I was ok, but never took any xrays, etc, new dr found out I had two herniated discs).

I left Ohio with my car, a computer, and some clothes and started a new life. Has taken me over 10 years to rebuild it, and I still have issues (though I was able to buy a house).

Being poor in america sucks, no one seems to be on your side.

[Subdivisions]

18. Thank you for...

your candor in giving us The Straight Story. So many times people aren't completely honest because a situation or issue may be embarrasing to them and they fear that people will look down on them simply because they were dealt, or played, a shitty hand. But what people like you do is to let everyone else know that bad luck is not just happening to them and that there is hope for a better future.

[The Straight Story]

26. I know *I* could have done better myself in those times

And lord knows I tried.

I worked at a job making 8.50/hr 50 miles away. I would get up at 5am and drive in, work 10 hours, come home, redo. I then went on nights again as a lead. On weekends we only worked early morning hours (factory). So I would get off at midnight, drive home, sleep 2 hours, and be back in (needed the OT).

In 18 months I did not miss one minute of work. We had a punch clock. One minute late and you lost your bonus that month (and it got bigger the more months in a row you were perfect, and that included OT days). I missed one day when baby was born and my extra hundred a month was gone.

I got injured, and continued to work for a year. Hardly able to walk, back would give out while pushing 500lb bins of parts, and it took me five minutes to get out my car when I got to work. I finally took dr advice and went on leave, got worker's comp, and my life went to hell to the point I tried suicide. I was one of the best employees they had - and I am not making that up. I busted my ass and broke company records, highest quality rating, was lead, was always involved in company functions (wrote for the paper, helped organize bug events, etc). I was dropped like a hot potato the first chance they got - because I was on workers' comp.

Funny thing is - they lost the case finally. I could get permanent partial disability or settle. I settled, no way in hell I wanted to be in their damn system any longer (and who would hire me then....).

The money I got in the settlement? It all went to bills except a few K for a used car I needed (mine was dead). No job, broken. Within a week of getting off comp I had a new job though (in computers) and never looked back.

If I lost my leg at work tomorrow I would crawl to my car, drive home, and say it happend there. Ohio worker's comp was an evil mess, and I ain't aiming to ever talk to them again.

[Subdivisions]

37. Yea, I know exactly what you mean

about getting broken at work. We started having major problems with illegal aliens taking every single possible job out there when that bozo took over at the end of Ann Richards gubernatorial term down here in Texas. I really think his and Rove's plan was hatched all the way back in those days to begin to whittle away the middle class.

Anyway, I was poor for half of my adult life before that competing with illegals for low wage construction jobs, trying to learn a trade after dropping out of college because my parents couldn't pay for it, hoping one day to go back and pay for it myself. Not.

So, I battled my way along and managed to eek out a career as a sheet metal construction tradesman and was lucky enough at one point to be approached by a sheet metal union organizer who signed me up and put me to work...and for the first couple of years, it was balls to the wall. I went from making $10-$13/hour to over $21/hour. I felt rich. I was even able to pack up the family and choose where I wanted to live, rather than being stuck in poverty. We went to California and later even lived a year in Jackson Hole, Wyoming among the Great Rocky Mountains.

Then my wife, Texan through and through, was homesick and wanted to return to Texas. That was 18 months ago and the union hasn't had a job worth losing your place on the bench for since. And the reason, I'm convinced of it, is competition with illegal alien wage payers.

My problems are also complicated by an injury to my heel and ankle several years ago that is progressively giving me more and more trouble as I get older, so much trouble that I would have to literally fake it if I were to go on another jobsite to install a roof or HVAC system. And the jobs I do are on the scale of the new Terminal D at DFW Airport, which I helped put the roof on. With a job on that scale, faking it can mean the end of your career, if not your life.

If it weren't for the fact that I have half a brain and can make a modest living at writing for the web, and if not for my wife's job, we would already be poverty stricken. And, since her company, like more and more companies, offers her NO insurance at all, and we can't afford it ourselves, if she gets hurt, as I am, we're up shit creek.

[The Straight Story]

46. A good friend of mine here is now having issues

Has been in construction since high school (1984). He took some other, more stable, jobs over the years. Over the last 5 though he has gotten back into the business but wages are so repressed due to illegals that he has had a hard time making it.

Jobs that were $12/hr are now 7. He just cannot compete. His older brother owned a construction company and has had to let go folks who were good just to compete (ie, he replaced them with cheaper labor, else he would go out of business altogether).

jeff (my friend) has seen the work some of these people do and it is subpar, but cheap. It's like wal-mart in construction. He did, thankfully, find some friends who are flipping houses and knew his quality of work and are letting him do the work. But that was a lucky break and ends soon.

This is not competing in a global market, it is competing here at home in a local market. Untaxed wages that goes who knows where.

His whole family has made their living in this business, since the 60's. Now they are facing an unfair competition locally and folks are losing jobs, homes, and careers. While the govt sits by idly.

[Subdivisions]

50. I'm fairly certain

that this same story can be repeated tens, if not hundreds, of thousand times across the construction industry not only in Texas, but EVERYWHERE. Don't believe it? I lived in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, the last place you would expect to find someone from the warmer climates of Latin America.

The only reason I was able to compete there for a decent wage is because you have to have a journeyman's liscense to work in my trade and you couldn't get that without revealing your citizenship status at some point along the process. But they were there, taking median wage jobs from those natives that used to do the very same jobs for a higher wage.

One contractor even bragged to me about how much cheaper it was to pay Latinos (not picking on Latinos, just that Latinos were the only illegal immigrant group I saw there) and that he could pay his expensive mortgage with the difference. If he wasn't a customer of the company I worked for, I would've let him have it right then and there.

[The Straight Story]

52. Well, I don't see you as picking on latinos, and here is why

Went to my ATM machine earlier tonight and it only asked me if I wanted English or Spanish.

I would say the numbers speak for themselves. Most those coming here are of Latino origin :)

[KT2000]

56. worker's comp

is hell everywhere and that is the plan. They screw around with people hoping they will commit suicide or die. They fight cases like they were corporations trying to destroy claimants. It is a philosophy that has swept the nation and is done in the name of saving money. They are always trying to think up new ways to dodge responsibility. Now it is self-insureds - private comapnies in control of the system.

Using credit ratings to set insurance rates is nothing but a scam. If it looks like a person is in trouble or once had trouble, they are entitled to raise all insurance rates and interest rates on credit.

Poverty is a crime and must be punished in the US. We are a sick country.

[Breeze54]

27. I've had very similar experiences...

Separated, hit by truck, on disability with two small kids at the time,
(I have three, in all now) My ex took off, left me with all the bills.
Electric bill was way over due. I paid it with my first disability check
(waited 8 wks for that!) and the electric company still wouldn't change
the name on the acct. over to me unless I paid my deadbeat ex's bill!
They were threatening to turn it off!!
I took them to ct. with the help of legal aid and the DPU got involved.
Discrimination! I finally won and it set a precedent! :)
Two yrs. later I got a bill for $27.00 and my ex got a bill for over $1500.00!! :rofl:
All he had to do was call them, at the beginning, and say he wasn't living at that
address anymore but he refused, like everything else!
I went through very hard times. At one point, while going to 'rehab' school,
the kids went to visit their Dad for 6 wks in the summer and FS came after me!
Even read me my rights! I had sent the FS with him to feed the kids!
What a load of crap! I never got in trouble for it but burned me up!
When you are poor and you're poor because they don't enforce child support orders,
life is hand to mouth! I finally got a divorce after three years of BS from him.
You were on the reverse end of that and that sucks. We survived it all though.
:hug:

[patrice]

39. You sound a lot stronger than I am. n/t

[Blue Belle]

66. No shit...

I was denied a job last year because of a poor credit rating. They fired me a week after I had been working there because they had just run the credit check. I got my business cards and my final check on the same day. I was so depressed afterward... I mean in a real "not leaving my bed let alone the house for months" state. The good news is, I decided to go back to school and finish my degree - the bad news is when I get my degree, I can still be denied a job because of my poor credit rating. I've been trying to get a job, but school takes up most of my time and it's hard to find a part time situation that is flexible enough to allow for study and class too (I need to maintain a high GPA in order to get scholarships because I can't afford school otherwise - despite not making only $16,000 last year I still don't qualify for a Pell Grant). I want to pay off all my debt, but aside from winning the lottery, I don't know how I'm going to do it. The worst part is that because I want to better my situation, I have to take out loans for school...

That's another thing that pisses me off. Unless you don't make any money what-so-ever they deny you a Pell grant for school (not that surviving on $16,000 a year is a living wage - I just don't get how poor you have to be to get a Pell grant). You do, however, automatically qualify for loans - both subsidized and unsubsidized. They are happy to filter you though the Sallie Mae track and in the end, you accrue more debt on top of what you already have. I've been trying to get the Financial Aid office to reassess my Financial Aid status, but I keep hitting walls. I just have to buckle down and keep my grades high in order for more Scholarship opportunities - but try explaining that to our boyfriend who thinks you should just get a secretarial job somewhere (because, unfortunately he's been paying most of the bills in the past 6 months - which he can well afford to do, but that's not the point). I just don't know what I'm going to do.

[acmejack]

9. Is this a trick question?

Every possible way, from charging you for not having a high enough balance to taxing the first $90,000 of your earnings. They tax capital gains at a lower rate. You can't even itemize if you don't maker enough money or have sufficient deductions, ie home ownership. They are trying to take that away, too.

[The Straight Story]

16. I just feel we are not outraged enough and not getting out the message

as well as we should.

Protests on Iraq war, etc, get a lot of folks energized - but we have a war right here at home where people are dying, suffering, and going hungry daily.

We amassed a lot of people, energized the base, and fought hard all over the place for the Iraqi people. We need to do that here, now, and as often as needed to let the people of this country know that we - the dems - are behind them.

[Subdivisions]

22. You know why people aren't outraged enough?

I sincerely believe that it's because everyone from the upper middle class on down is literally just trying to survive and get the bills paid, keep food on the table, keep fuel in their vehicles, maintain a symblance of normalcy for their children by investing in Boy & Girl Scouts, soccer, softball and baseball, keeping everyone feeling special at Christmas and on birthdays, anniversaries and bah mitzvahs and church and babtisms and cleaning the house and I could go on and on.

One word: Fear!

[Breeze54]

30. I think that's called 'life'!

But there is an attitude that being poor is BAD!!!
People look down on "those people' and that's why the poor don't speak up more!
They are to busy trying to survive and they don't want to be stigmatized!

[patrice]

42. "Our" culture IS a man-eater.

Or should I say person-eater . . . .

I've taught in upper-middle and private high-schools, believe me, the cat's out of the bag, many of the young are not exactly excited by their "opportunities".

[Subdivisions]

12. Fairly soon, unless there's a change

in our leadership and a sea change in the way our government thinks about what is important and what is not, we of the middle classes will be joining the ranks of the poor very soon. Hell, most of us, as they say, are one paycheck away from being on the street.

[patrice]

15. BTW, I do know what you are talking about, because I am watching

my son struggle and struggle (including student loans) to make it "contracting" for (BuShit!) so-called temp-to-hire technical jobs that are really ONLY temporary and without benefits.

[The Straight Story]

21. I am a tech manager and have such people working for me

I have fought hard to get them hired on. In the last year I have managed to do so for ten such people out of fifteen.

I know how it feels because I started out that way myself.

The only upside for me was no student loans (am a high school drop out). I cannot imagine being saddled with debt for an education then having a company keep you around year after year as a temp because they don't need anyone in that position....


The one reason we do keep a few people in that class is potential cutbacks in staffing if things change. Sad, but true. I have worked hard, many a nights at this PC working on number crunnching to keep people in their jobs. So far, for last two years, I have won that battle.

If he can program, tell him about rentacoder.com. Tell him to underbid, near for free, the jobs for a month and then he will see really good results. Hit me up in du mail if you need more info. If he wants to come to Ohio, Deleware, NY, Chicago, let me know as I can help out there as well.

[patrice]

25. He went for the management side of the degree rather than the

engineering side of it, ergo he's not a programmer.

He's been provisioning networks more than anything else. He is only just now beginning to consider re-location and, perhaps, transition out of technology.

Thanks for the suggestions. And God bless you for what you can do for others. I was a high school teacher, I feel bad about the frustration I see out there. This isn't what we told them about how "it" works.

[rubberducky]

17. Unless you have a high credit score.....

you are so screwed. Life, health, and car insurance are not available. Where do you live without a proper credit score???? Can you get a job with no available transportation?? Please don`t say get a job. How do you do that when you have nothing? This country`s lack of compassion in the past 6 years is totally appaling. Maybe Halliburton`s new prisons will house the debtors. What else could they be for??

[The Straight Story]

23. The system needs overhauled, my fix:

Get dems that will listen into power. ASAP. 2006 and 2008 are needed beyond words.

And when they get in - We need to be all over them about issues like this and not give em a pass. We dumped lieberman, we can dump anyone else who does not represent our views - and we should.

[patrice]

43. That's the kind of Organizing I'm thinking of.

Be "all over them" all of the time.

Do what the church-cartels have been doing for the pro-War crowd.

[earth mom]

24. The debtors AND anyone who disagrees with the powers that be.

:scared:

[acmejack]

59. Nowadays it is hard to even get a decent job without a good credit score!

It's a joke!

[Gormy Cuss]

84. Employers should be barred from accessing credit info, period.

It's none of their business. Same for insurance companies. I know the justifications for using credit -- it's too damn bad. The system was not put in place to serve those purposes. Credit history and credit reporting should be strictly confined to credit AND the credit bureaus should be prohibited from issuing reports with SSNs as primary identifiers.

[undergroundpanther]

28. Free stores

have a place where people that have shit they don't use can swap their stuff and look for what they need ,from other people who can't use what they got,and want what you don't want..Get MONEY out of the relationship.

I think swapping,gifting,giving away surplus,to total strangers even..all adds up to a way to SHUT OUT the corporations.WE don't need THEM mankind existed a long time without corporate pigs "owning" us all ya know,Before money there was barter and other exchange systems. What can a company do if money is just paper? What can they tell us we need if we exchange each others skills and become too damn self sufficient and too caring of each others well being to need ANY of their shit?

[The Straight Story]

29. Reminds me of the Amish here

Pretty closed society that interacts as needed.

They take of each other pretty well though.

Which reminds me of a little thing we made called government. For the people, by the people. All the people.

The government IS our union. Sadly it has been busted and used by the few. We need to retake it for the many.

[lostinacause]

41. To put it simply, I don't think your plan will accomplish anything.

Even underground economies have medians of exchange. The cost of not having some form of currency is really high especially in economies with a large number of goods.

Also keep in mind that much of the productivity gains over the last 200 years have come from education, division of labor, and technological advances. You plan would probably set productivity back 50 years and would stunt any sort of growth. The secrets to successful policies aimed at helping the poor are to increase opportunities and transfer wealth. Preferably both tasks are done in an efficient manner.

It seems to me that what you are suggesting will make the problem worse, not better.

[patrice]

48. The caring you mention is going to be the "the trick".

Especially when things change here in the U.S. because of the economic ascendance of China and India, with Iran's oil, and because of when our national debts cease to be a good investment for other countries. We'll "go to the bank" for a loan to pay the "grocery" bills and the bank will say no.

Then either the Mystical Body of Christ will manifest in new caring communities free of churches or it won't.

[Gormy Cuss]

65. Here's a place to start.

www.freecycle.org

[Tsiyu]

31. Yes, thanks for asking

Today I went to look at the sight where my son took out a telephone pole coming home from work at 6:00 am Thursday morning. He swerved to miss a dog and hydroplaned off a ten foot high embankment (how he did not flip I do not know) took out a telephone pole and went another 25 feet before a tree stopped him.

I was only a mile away, waiting for him at a friend's house where he often shows up right after work to sleep, knowing he is too tired to drive all the way home. I was going to tell him to quit that night job immediately.

He's been starting a business by day and took a fulltime job at night to make enough money to get his own place with some friends.

Tuesday night, he didn't want to go to the night job. This kid kicks ass when he works; people always come up to me and compliment me on his work ethic, so I advised him to give them notice but not to just stay home. "Let them know you are quitting first so they can hire a replacement."

What a dumbass I am. He worked all day Wednesday and had band practice so i couldn't tell him I'd just seen his paystub and realized that at $5.75 an hour, after gas costs he was only bringing home around $100 a week!

Bullshit! That bitch who owns the night shift place can kiss my ass for using my son that way! Fuck her! Just because someone is struggling doesn't mean you have the right to abuse them further.

Of course, he was in his sister's car, which was only insured for liability. I will say this: Sebring's must be built very, very well. Still, I shudder to think what my mechanic is going to tell me tomorrow.

We will have to earn the money to repair it. My son's business partner loaned us the money to have it towed. This FULLTIME night shift job has cost us more than it was ever worth.

And he is in some pain, but we have no insurance. I don't want to even think about the emergency room visit. My son tried to waive medical attention, but thankfully one of our beautiful Tennessee cops knew him and had a chat with the EMT ( thanks, Bud :hi: ) so he did take an ambulance ride.

So much for the kid trying to work his way out of poverty.

I could go on, but this is what's on my mind right now. It sucks to be poor.

[elocs]

32. I went through bankruptcy nearly 7 years ago.

The year before I had been hurt at work and had back surgery. I was fortunate because my worker's comp checks came right away and were only about $30 less than my take home check. My surgery went perfect, but I became doubtful that I would be able to continue in a job that required heavy lifting and I also had debt that was larger than my yearly take home pay.

I am driving the same car since then, just getting it repaired. I kept my same car insurance and that didn't change. I eventually got another credit card with a good rate and I have used it ever since, always paying the balance every month which is why the credit companies consider me a dead beat. I also got a surprise after my bankruptcy when I got a check from worker's comp because my back injury left me with a 5% partial permanent disability.

Last November I eventually quit my job doing the heavy lifting in spite of the fact that I had not missed a day of work because of my back since I returned. In my early 50s I didn't want to press my luck too far and end up with a back injury that left me wearing adult diapers the rest of my life or popping pain pills to get through the day. I had money saved up and I have been doing temp work for Manpower since then, sort of like dating before marriage. I did get my last job through Manpower and I worked there 11 years.

It is my good fortune to be able to live on very little and not feel deprived. I am totally in the black and live without debt. I am making payments on nothing and my only expenses are just monthly living expenses. I live in a small, but nice mobile home in a nice mobile home court and my rent is only about $200 a month. I couldn't even get an efficiency apartment here for that. So in spite of bankruptcy, I live comfortably. Also, I can manage to do this because I am single and avoid female entanglements which lead to great expense (there's no way around that).

[Az_lefty]

33. Everyone except the wealthy are being screwed over...

it's the way it is today. These Neocon con-artists are the most selfish, heartless and uncaring bastards ever to walk this country.

[BlueEyedSon]

36. Correct answer.

[Ron Green]

35. In my opinion, poverty comes from both sides -

from an unfair system AND from individual choices.

It's a complex issue, and the interplay of the market, the government and the NGO's determine the scope and direction of poverty at any given time. I know quite a few very poor people in various capacities, and there is always a way in which the system is stacked against them, especially in health care, housing and transportation. At the same time, most of the poor people I know and work with continue to make bad decisions, even when given breaks by a governmental or non-profit organizations working hard to help them get away from poverty.

My guess is that learned helplessness goes hand-in-hand with the market-based system that's designed to keep poor people enslaved. The efforts of the "helping" organizations in education, vouchers, seed money, case management and many other incentives are constantly undermined by corporate advertising's messages that go straight to people's fears and sell them a useless product to assuage those fears.

My observation is that people with more money and stability don't exhibit learned helplessness to the extent of those who are locked in a poverty cycle.

[lostinacause]

44. I agree with you.I believe that most of the chosen comes down to education

and attitudes towards work.

[bobbolink]

68. Here's a question for you...

If education is the be-all and end-all, and will lead to a better life for all Americans...

.... then, who will clean the toilets in our public buildings?

.... who will clean the streets?

.... who will pick the crops?

.... who will serve your food?

.... who will do all the other mundane jobs that are low-pay but very necessary to keep the country running???

Will the system work well when everyone is in middle-management???

[Ron Green]

78. I hope there can be better pay in these jobs,

better public services for all people, and
higher taxes on the wealthy to take up the slack.

There ought to be dignity built in to every occupation.

[bobbolink]

86. I agree completely -- but everybody pushes education so much,

it leaves that huge question about the odious tasks that *somebody* has to perform!

Many, many years ago, a behavioral psychologist by the name of B.F. Skinner proposed a society that was much more egalitarian. In a brief nutshell, what he was suggesting was making education available to ALL, so that there would be a huge number of doctors, lawyers, etc. BUT.... all the other tasks would also be shared, so that, for instance, a doctor would spend only a portion of time treating patients. She would also have to put in time collecting garbage, stocking grocery shelves, etc. One of the benefits is that all tasks would be respected, and people would get a certain amount of physical exercise from work.

Also, occupations like carpentry and other physical work would have a lot of trained people, so that as they aged and were unable to continue a physically demanding job, they would also have their other training and education to rely on, and not be stuck unable to make a living because they only had one type of training which they could no longer do.

While I don't think much of behavioral psychology, I thought his idea had a lot of merit.

I mean, can you see W scrubbing the Blighthouse toilets???

:rofl:

[gorbal]

57. There are more factors at work here

Most of the people I know on the extreem end of poverty are young single mothers, war veterans, children,the elderly, the physically handicapped and the mentally ill. The only way out for some people is a better system.

http://www.economichumanrights.org/index.shtml

[Ron Green]

61. I agree that for some people a better system is the only hope.

Most of the really poor people I work with are in the "assistance" system such as TANF, food stamps, SSI, etc. We're repeatedly seeing benefits reduced, staff laid off and grants disappearing. My point, though, is that lots of people have acquired such a feeling of helplessness that they continue to make bad decisions about their own money, health, relationships and employment, almost as if to sabotage their chances of getting out of the poverty cycle. The system, which of course in its largest sense includes the private market and the churches and other charitable groups, is badly out of balance these days, and thus seeks to enslave people rather than free them.

I believe that the "learned helplessness" to which I referred above is fed by our toxic culture.

[Tsiyu]

79. Most Poor people i know don't have the time to make poor choices

But poor choices are made for them every day. An employee who shows up on time, does his job and only makes 6.50 an hour has to keep that job because he doesn't have transportation to take him off the mountain. He just had surgery, but without insurance he can't afford his necessary meds. So he misses a few nights of work here and there and puts his health further in danger. Everyone else in the community gets away with paying grown women and men like him shit wages, so they all do it and get away with it.

They are saying, in effect, screw this community. I'm going to suck the life force out of the workers and make sure they don't get paid enough to support many of the local businesses. I'm going to pay them so little, in fact, that they have to take some form of public assistance to get by, EVEN WHEN THEY WORK 40 HOURS A WEEK!!!!!!!! How is that "making poor choices" on the part of the poor person?

What does the poor person do when there are low wages and only low wages for miles around, even if that worker deserves more and is worth more but has no other choice but to stay in that community?

If they give up and say, "Screw it" they are "lazy." If they stay they are practicing "learned helplessness?" Give me a break! How about the CEO is the lazy ass and the corporate payroll Scrooges are practicing "learned avarice?"

The company that hires humans as if it is hiring machines or beasts, and that pays them pennies compared to what the business owners and CEOs skim off the business every day, are at fault for making poor choices for the communities in which they do business and from which they hire a workforce. They say, "screw the public welfare, I'm getting mine, and if people don't like it, they don't have to work here."

When you're hungry and you want to pay your own way, you take that shit job because it's the only one around for miles and the company knows it can get away with abusing you.

And for every person or couple I've known who've made poor choices - financing vehicles, furniture rentals, huge clothes or party budget - I know 20 poor people who haven't got a thing on credit, but a medical condition or accident wiped out savings. Should they have made a better, more financially stable choice by denying their child needed surgery and medical care? Or let Granny die rather than have a bypass? Perhaps someone like you has absolutely no clue how our health care system bankrupts people.

When medical services are only available to the wealthy, how does a poor person practice "learned helpfulness?" Can you explain, Ron_Green? Maybe you read above that my son was in a wreck (it was friday morning they tell me but I'm out of it.) He's been laying here suffering til a friend whose dad is a Doc made him come to the office and they are providing care for free. Unbelievable but there are really good hearts out there. But what if we didn't know this wonderful kid and dad?

We also lucked out in a bizarre twist and my new neighbor works at the wrecker so he arranged a deep discount knowing insurance might not cover. (So nice way to make up with neighbors, too.)

I rely on good friends and neighbors, and so does nearly everyone here who is poor. We know how to survive. And none of us is trying to beg food at restaurants, the way the children of the welathy do ALL THE TIME up here.

Believe me, if the bottom drops out, we poor folks know how to make it. It will be the self-assured Yuppies - who claim this vast superiority when it comes to choice-making - who will be wondering how to find food and keep their cars running.

[ItNerd4life]

80. Let me try to answer part of your question

I also blame poor choices as a part of the problem.

An true example: I had a renter who didn't have any front teeth when she signed the lease. After searching for a job for months without any luck she claimed it was because she didn't have her front teeth. She went to a dentist and then she told me how much it would cost to get her teeth fixed. I didn't have her pay rent for the month so she could get her teeth fixed. Instead, she spent the money at the local faire and never got her teeth fixed.

That is a poor choice. It was very frustrating for me not just because she didn't pay rent, but because I tried doing her a huge favor and she just blew me off. It is that cycle that helps keep people poor and helpless.

Mind you, there are many people who can't take care of themselves like the mentally handicapped and others. These aren't the people I'm referring too.

[Ron Green]

85. I'm glad your son is OK, and I'm sorry for his accident.

It's a good thing there are people in the community who will help out directly, like the son of the doctor and the wrecker employee. I see these people as part of the Church (not the organized church, where they worship every Sunday, although that church is part of it), the part of the world that helps people because it's the right thing to do, and seeks to move all of us toward greater mental, physical and spiritual health.

The part of the world that's making your family's life miserable is the Market. That's the employer that pays shit wages just because he or she can get away with it, and tries to make a profit no matter what other harm is done.

The State is what regulates all this stuff, by making law and policy, and only it has the power to enforce the right thing, whether it be minimum wage or fair working conditions or safe food and drugs or whatever.

The problem, as I see it, is that the Market, mainly through advertising, has fooled many poor people into buying into a bunch of crap they don't need, and working hard to earn it, thinking it will make them more happy, or at least take away the pain for a while.
Examples: Cigarettes
Cheap toys and crap for kids
Television
Junk food
Casino gambling & lotteries
and on and on.

This is what I mean by "learned helplessness." The government service agencies do the best they can, with overworked case mangers and a shrinking budget, to provide some basic needs for poor people. However, the Free Market, with its cheap and shiny shit, continues to offer more bad choices than you can shake a stick at, and it's the poor people who can least afford to make these choices, although it's easy to understand why they continue to jump at them.

[Tsiyu]

89. Thanks for the thoughts about my son

:)

We are very lucky he is still with us. He says the Grim Reaper was in the neighborhood as we've heard of eight wrecks last week. One kid died; another of our young friends is bruised up pretty badly.

We have a great many wonderful friends in Tennessee who care so much for my kids and me; it's very humbling.

I agree with most of what you said except there at the end. I blame the upper middle classes for buying more trash and trinkets than the poor. EVERYBODY, regardless of income, should have a little bit to piss away. While we demonize the poor person for his lottery tickets and six packs, the media tells the middle class that they are "normal" when they buy plasma TVs and iPods and a new wardrobe every six weeks and purses that cost $750. Talk about excess and a waste.

The truth is, we as a society are incredibly silly and full of excess. CEO's are guilty of excess when they are paid exhorbitant bonuses and throw lavish parties on the company dime. Thay do much more financial damage to our economy than the poor guy who buys himself a pack of cigarettes once in a while.

And the bottom line in America: NOBODY is saving. Savings are in the negative range. So it's not just poor people making these bad choices. We just feel better when we can blame someone who isn't like us.

But we have ALL made the choices that have put our economy where it is.

I've made a ton of bad choices, as has everyone i know from the poorest to the richest. BUT, I own my property and my vehicles and I can live on very little. I look poor, but I have more financial security than folks I know in debt up to their eyeballs just to have giant, beautiful homes and the latest model cars and snazzy wardrobes all of their friends will envy.

[Ron Green]

90. I agree with you about the middle classes, too.

They buy just as much cheap and shiny shit, even more of it 'cause they can afford it, although they don't seem to be as bound to economic slavery as the poor. They are maybe 3 or 4 paychecks from disaster instead of living square in the middle of it.

No matter how much money people in America make, they tend to use it in ways that promise happiness and fulfillment, but never deliver. This is what pisses me off about the Libertarians; they seem to think their beloved Free Market will operate in a benign way and give people what they really need, while reality shows quite another story.

Church and State doesn't scare me nearly as much as Market and State.

[Tsiyu]

92. your last statement is sobering

Combined, the forces of Market and Church will have us all so broke and dejected nobody will be able to afford any sin ;)

There are so many situations where poor choices are made by TPTB. For example: mass transit. Gwinnett County, Georgia - a bit north of Atlanta - didn't want to invest in a rail system or even bus system. The whites were afraid that *horrors* colored people might come to Gwinnett County, so they never developed a good, reliable mass transportation system.

Of course now Jimmy Carter Blvd and Gwinnett Place Mall are as multicultural as you can get. People of all hues showed up anyway to work and shop and live. But now they're stuck on congested roads spending 2 hours to go 20 miles, using up more gas and more of their time.

It's ridiculous how short-sighted the "brilliant" planners are, in their fancy shmancy suits, neglecting any need for new schools or water systems or landfills as they plan their jumbo gated communities.

It's pretty easy to see where a poor person's bad choices got that individual where he is. It's a sight more difficult to track down the people who make the poor choices that impact millions or to get those "important folks" to fess up to their errors and make things right.

[Gormy Cuss]

67. On bad choices.

Have you ever noticed that when middle class people talk about how hard it is for their college educated children to be self supporting no one ever places the blame on their lot on making bad choices?

We all make poor choices but as a society we treat the poor choices of those in poverty much more harshly. I can list the poor choices made by low income people that I've known in my family and life but doing so makes not one whit of difference in addressing their poverty. I can even remember as a 12 year old being told to my face how much of our problems were caused by my mother's irresponsible choices. Of course it felt like I was being blamed for something out of my control but no matter. I was still expected to live my life making all the right choices, even when surrounded by role models who hadn't made them. If I didn't figure out the right choices in that vacuum it would be my own damn fault.

So although you are correct that people's own bad choices contribute to their state of poverty, it's not as much of an issue as the failure to facilitate transitional assistance for short term poverty and the lack of societal impetus to provide people with sufficient supports to be free from long term poverty.

[Ron Green]

77. I don't know what the ratio is, and couldn't even guess

as to how much of ongoing poverty is due to individual choices vs. a crippled and underfunded system.

I do agree that blame for middle-class unemployment and underemployment is rarely assigned to individual choice, but to a poor economy or a messed-up job market. I imagine this follows the mythology of a college degree being a ticket to a good career, which of course is no longer completely true.

On the other hand, poor people are an easy target because they're underrepresented in all three institutions of society: Church, State and Market. And when these institutions have been hijacked by the wealthy and greedy, they set the middle class AGAINST the poor rather than make helpful connections. And "they're just lazy and irresponsible" is a perfect meme to carry out the plan.

[ItNerd4life]

69. Very well said, I believe the rich get richer

not just because they have money, but because they continue to do the things that made them wealthy to begin with.

Not all of them of course, but I believe a majority of new wealth is created because their habits and knowledge become one of building wealth.

I don't understand why in school we don't teach people how to save, invest, and how to break out of cycles that keep them poor.

I own apartments and am always trying to help people pay their rents (which are low) and to start building a new life for themselves. It's sad when they say 'thanks' and eventually just walk away without changing.

[Subdivisions]

76. You want to blame choices?

I have to agree with you.

Too bad my choice was to relieve the financial burden of college from my parents, who obviously couldn't afford the school I chose to attend despite assurances they could. But when you're being called into the Financial Dean's office each month when they haven't received payment, concentrating on calculus and physics becomes quite difficult. So, my choice was to take time off of college and either give my parents time to regroup or to find a solution myself.

My solution: get a job and save money so I could go back. Just so happens, I ended up in construction. Save money for college? HA! Yeah, right! The system is designed to squeeze every possible cent out of your wallet. Savings!? That's a goddamn joke. I graduated high school with honors and a 3.9 GPA and because my parents made a scant too much income, I was ineligible for the Pell Grant and any scholarships that were available to those less fortunate.

It's simple. The whole goddamn system is tailored to accomodate the rich and those that make it by by the skin of their teeth are the lucky ones.

Yeah, I made a choice that still causes me problems to this day, some 24 years later. My choice was to relieve my parents of the burden of paying thousands of dollars every semester and keeping them from living in poverty. So, now they are older and living on SSI and I am struggling just to get one more paycheck - just to give it all to corporations in order to survive. And now we're all just one paycheck from poverty.

[leftofthedial]

38. to some extent

everyone who has even slightly less money than someone else gets screwed over. The effect magnifies as you move down the economic ladder, so the poor are screwed literally to death by our system. Be poor, get sick, die. Poverty is a prison without walls.

[lostinacause]

47. To the extent that wealth is based on conscious decisions I disagree

with you. To the extent that it is based on systematic discrimination I agree.

I actually believe that having some diversity in wealth is ideal. It provides us with choice and incentives. In particular someone who wants to work harder to acquire more wealth is not a problem. Either is someone who prefers to live a basic existence if they so choose. I must add that this is under the caveat that people get a reasonable choice in their circumstances.

[fishwax]

72. hard work and aquiring wealth aren't the same

I've known people who had significant wealth for whom hard work was a rather foreign concept. Likewise, I've known people who worked very hard who had very little wealth. (With respect to the latter, there were any number of reasons, varying from structural influences to poor choices, to working hard at jobs which don't offer great financial reward.)

Whatever level of wealth, though, and whatever the cause, those without are screwed in various ways, from fewer access to various financial resources, tax shelters, etc., and that's true regardless of the work ethic of the individual, and even if the disparity in wealth is based on conscious decisions. (And, of course, decisions which interfere with wealth acquisition need not be irresponsible.) This is not to say that there should be no diversity in wealth.

[Greyhound]

82. But "reasonable choice" does not, and has never, existed here.

For far more people than we would like to believe, there never was a choice.

[Raydawg1234]

45. always have been

[The Straight Story]

54. Well, you bring up something of interest

Perhaps 'poor' is a poor term :)

My dad raised us all, with a home, used cars, etc, on not much an hour. We were lower middle class. But we had all we needed.

I don't think my dad's standard of living with us kids today would be what it was back then.

But yeah, the poor seem to always be screwed.

In the end, the company he worked for many years went under, though they wanted to keep him (he would have to work 80 miles away though).

In his case, it was a company poorly managed. But then I see other, big companies, poorly managed and the feds bail em out.

Poorly manage your own life? Screwed.

[mvd]

51. Definitely, and it's just what you would expect when..

a capitalist extremist is in power. Their brand of capitalism isn't even real capitalism. It's corporatism, where corporations of choice set the rules and have obscene amounts of control.

[vanboggie]

55. Excellent Rant, SS

This is something that bothers me, too. My stephdaughter and husband have a child with major medical problems which affected their finances. They are paying an exhorbitant interest rate on their house and car.

My daughter is 22 and saddled with a $20,000 medical bill because she quit college and was uninsured. She couldn't get assistance because she worked in a pizza joint making $6/hr. That will wreck her credit and she'll be starting adult life in a horrible mess because she needed emergency surgery and 1 night hospital stay. Now she probably will have trouble finding a decent job because of her credit score. The BushCo system really beats you when you're down.

I wholeheartedly agree with your entire rant.

[Catherine Vincent]

62. Very good rant.

I have a niece that recently married (very young). They have a three month old and her husband is in the military. While on leave, he was in town and wanted to open a checking account. I found out later from my niece that he couldn't get it because of his credit. I thought WTF? You want to open an account at their bank and put money in but they won't accept you because of your credit or credit rating? This guy is only 19 (he may be 20) years old. This is really ridiculous.

[Jed Dilligan]

74. My ex, just turned 18 when we got together...

She had collection agents hounding her for medical bills she incurred when she was TWELVE.

[catmandu57]

64. Poor is all I've ever known

There was a time when I was a child, that we were solid upper working class, but that has slipped away. The only way I see for things to change is to completely tear down the system we're living under. Hit the restart button, and begin again, otherwise it's going to stay the same and get worse.
I'm well into middle age, crippled and living on ssi, I can see the day that it will be gone if things stay the same. I live in fear, I can honestly say that, because I really have no other way of keeping myself alive.
If I'm lucky, extremely lucky, I may have thirty years left in me, at the rate I'm deteriorating, I kind of doubt that there is that much left, the way things are going I've been seriously thinking about what will happen the day I go to the mail box and the sorry charlie letter is in there.
This sucks big green ones, I can't buy some pie in the sky afterlife, I just want to live this one.
I'm putting all my hopes into karma, anybody who can be this uncaring and nasty deserves more than just croaking off and rotting.

[converted_democrat]

71. K&R - One of the best rants I've ever had the pleasure to read on DU. n/t

[MissB]

75. In November, we'll be voting to toss the credit score/insurance tie-in.

I bet it passes. It will help a few people, but it is just one of many things that is tied to credit scores.

I tried counseling my niece not to get into $70k worth of college debt (to become a teacher!) because of the lasting detriment to her financial future. I didn't even thing about car insurance, renting, getting a job or even opening a bank account.

[Greyhound]

81. Does The Pope bugger alter boys in the woods? n/t

[Skip Intro]

91. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

[B Calm]

93. The rich are rich only to the detrement of the working class! The

corporate managment sociopaths who keep our wages low will all burn in HELL!