Hizbollah says they shot down an Israeli helicopter (CNN)

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very bad

[NVMojo]

1. not surprised as Israel was rushing troops and weapons in today

in spite of the pending cease fire on Monday:

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=191979756&p=y9y98x46z

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2. both sides were going at it hard

Israel, like you say, was pushing troops in. I don't think that's the greatest strategy ahead of a cease-fire aggreement.

Yet, they want to position themselves in a way that they look like their efforts have done enough to Hizbollah that would justify their airstrikes, assaults, and invasion.

There's also the pesky matter of Hizbollah and their weapons . . .

Can they put a lid on this?

[cal04]

3. Hizbollah says downs Israeli helicopter in Lebanon

Hizbollah guerrillas shot down an Israeli helicopter in south Lebanon on Saturday, a Lebanese security source and Hizbollah said.

The Israeli army had no comment on the report. The helicopter was shot down in the southern village of Yater, Hizbollah's al-Manar television and the security source said.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12223341.htm

[Beelzebud]

4. Everyone wants ceasefire except Hizbollah and Israel.

Both sides won't stop until they "win".

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5. you got it

a 'win'. whatever the fuck that is.

the longer it stretches on, the more . . .

[acmavm]

6. I would find it hard to want a cease fire all the while the opposing side

is filling the country with troops and weapons.

That would kind of make me wonder how honest the other side was being.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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8. easy now. I just heard the report without commentary

It's bad for the cease-fire agreement looming

the longer they wait to ratify it, the more chance someone will have to commit some massive atrocity that generates momentum the other way, back to continuing, unending violence.

[WiseButAngrySara]

9. Right! A cease-fire is announced, and once again, all favors Israel, and

how does Israel respond? Oh, like the 'moral' fighters that they claim to be? NO. Let's let push right on up to the the (?) River and destroy more human life and infrastructure in our greedy bloodthirsty paths, because that our their initial plan. And damn world opinion! What Israel wants, Israel gets, and for those of us who disapprove, we are anti-Semite. Israel is anti-World!

[The Magistrate]

10. What Do You Expect From People At War, Ma'am?

The U.N. resolution at this point obliges neither side to stop fighting. It sets conditions for the eventual cessation of fighting that will work to the greater advantage of Israel the further north its ground forces are established.

The object of Israeli operations on the ground in southern Lebanon is the destruction of Hezbollah gun-men in battle. These have been obliging the Israelis by staying in the south to fight, both in the face of the advances, and from substantial concealment bypassed by the spear-heads. The logical closing step of such an operation is to throw a line across the rear of the Hezbollah battle zone, to the north of the positions these men are ensconced in. This sets up a situation where men attempting to retreat must fetch up against a line of soldiers, and the Hezbollah gun-men have very little offensive power by which to fight through. Those who do not seek to retreat will remain within the Israeli perimeter, and any activity by them can be replied to forcefully under the self-defense provisions of the resolution once it is fully in place. There will be a period of delay in assembling the U.N. force that the Israelis will turn over their positions to, and during this, die-hards will be winkled out, and stores and fortifications located and destroyed. The greater the area in which this is done, the greater the gain for the Israelis from the over-all operation. There is little point in expecting people to act in any way other than their obvious self-interest in a situation like this. One way or another, the military capability of Hezbollah is going to be neutralized, at least to the limit of the ability of Israel to contrive that neutralization.

[WiseButAngrySara]

13. Thanks The Magistrate. I had tried to read this earlier and came back

to it. I so appreciate reading your posts, as they always seem so lucid and rational. I must confess though, I've read Thucydide's History of the Peloppon. War two times, and I always skipped over the military battle details, but a bit of it sunk in. I preferred the speeches (which were Thucydide's thoughts about human nature; his ideal in speech seemed to be Pericles, but reading between the lines of his historical accounting of the deeds of Pericles, I came to the conclusion that Thucydies despised Pericles as he was responsible for the War) and all else in The History to the military accounts. You sound like a military planner!

Simply stated, you're saying that Israel wants to force the Hezbollah up against a river, where they can have no other escape, except to flee into Israel, where they will be captured. And that this is 'fair' as it is war. I say that their plan is to actually extend their borders to include South Lebanon up to the River, which I'm sure they can claim they won justly. I see their actions as avarice and cruelty to other human beings. You see their actions as self-interest and self-preservation. And I'm sure we are both correct to some degree. But Sir, to use your own sig line, when the word 'moral' loses it's meaning, what happens? What happened to the words 'freedom' and 'uniter' under B*?

I do appreciate your wisdom, and your words always have a calming effect on me. Perhaps you should post more in the I/P Forum? I'm not kidding. Rational, respected, peacemaker posters are needed there!

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12. I've been floored by the refusal* of the US to restrain them

I don't know how I could have been mistaken in believing that all of that money we spend on aid and weaponry for Israel should amount to more than a wink and a nod. No collusion there at all. None whatsoever :eyes:

It's not the UN that's broken as Kofi Annan said, its our moral leadership which has been thoroughly abandoned by George Bush that's rendered the entire process down to nothing more than an empty promise hanging on the whim and pleasure of the Ogres who would be our leaders. They throw us all into the dirt while they posture and preen, crowing about their bloody rampages; as if in the carnage there could ever be some 'victory' that anyone could be sanguine about, even for a moment.

[WiseButAngrySara]

14. This post is so sad! And I can't quite understand it. Are you voicing

the opinion that I've heard expressed here before (and don't know whether to believe or not) that Israel is a 'set-up' for the neo-cons grander plans, and is being used as a scapegoat to blame for the "bloody rampages" while keeping their own hands clean so to speak?

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15. why is it sad if you can't understand it?

Sara, all of the 'leaders' at present have shown themselves willing to throw their soldiers and citizens against each other instead of resolving their differences peacefully. I don't know if they're neo-cons (there are some) or not. I just see their willingness to sacrifice the lives and livelihoods of others without much reservation or afterthought. I think Israel and their very real oppression of the Palestinians is used as 'scapegoat' for countless acts of senseless violence, as if, as I wrote, in the carnage there could ever be some 'victory' that anyone could be sanguine about, even for a moment. Nothing of any lasting value has been achieved by most of the violence in that region, and I can't imagine anything of lasting value coming now. I do think it's amazing, if it happens, that the combatants can stop fighting and work things out diplomatically now, after so many senseless killings. Why can't we just assume up front that war and violence produces killing, maiming, and destruction, and little else? Then we could stop these death dances before they start.

[WiseButAngrySara]

16. When I read your post last night, I thought that you were making apologies

for Israel. I can now see that was not the case. Bloody aggressive war on innocent civilians has no excuse, and never will have; not in my eyes, not in the eyes of most of the world, and not in the eyes of God (not even for his "Chosen People"). Read my sig line. I'll stand behind it.

[breakaleg]

11. Israel clearly kept up their offensive attack in an effort to inflict

more damage on Hezbollah / Lebanon while they could. I wonder how they will be perceived at home with every Israeli casualty over the next 2 days. These deaths would be for nothing.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749479.html