'Pakistani Scum'....

[BooScout]

That's how a poster in another forum I post on has described the 19 suspects in the UK. She's insisting that it is not racist for her to describe them this way since she didn't come right out and use the word 'Paki'. My argument to her that it is indeed racism since 1. They are British Citizens and residents not Pakistani citizens or residents 2. she lumped the enitre culture of Pakistan in with the 'scum' label when she prefaced her comment with 'Pakistani' and 3. one doesn't have to be blatent to be a racist.

Am I being too harsh? I know it's hard to formulate an opinion without the post but I think the comment pretty much speaks for itself.

[MercutioATC]

1. You're on firm ground.

By classifying them as " Pakistani scum", she's choosing "Pakistani" as the defining characteristic.

A simple question to ask her...

If an African-American terrorist was caught, would it be appropriate to refer to him as "That black bastard", or could that be considered racist?

[Broken_Hero]

2. Good response, agreed....nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. BooScout is definitely right

but I fear the kind of person who made the 'scum' remark would also say "that black bastard" without a second thought, and would think it perfectly justified.

On edit: Boo, perhaps inverted commas round the phrase in the title would help make it apparent it's someone else's phrase, to which you object, rather than the start of a rant on DU?

[BooScout]

4. Thanks ...

Good idea Muriel. Will change it.

[BooScout]

5. I need some help with this....

It's been argued that I am stretching for my argument that the term 'Pakistani Scum' is racist by the reason being that she is calling them that name not on the basis of their origin but because they planned to blow up innocent people.

[Blue Belle]

12. She could have said "Terrorist Scum" and achieved the same goal.

By saying "Pakistani Scum" she's painting an entire culture with a broad brush. Ask her how she would like to be lumped together with the likes of Tim McVey, when someone not of this country were to react with "American Scum" after hearing about his actions.

[elehhhhna]

13. Ask her what she calls the Pakistani-decended neighbors who

TURNED THEM IN.

[eachsmallcandle]

6. ironically...

many of these assholes were british-born pakis.

might i add that the word "pakis" is not racist (at least, in the US). of course, i didn't need the disclaimer, but it seems the idiom police are out in full force on DU these days.

[BooScout]

7. I have been trying to explain that.......

Unfortunately the people I am arguing with are British and they can't see past the suspects nation of origin (either their's or their parents). The fact that 2 are anglo-saxon and one from the caribean seem to be irrelevant.

I beg to differ. 'Paki' is a racist term. Even in the US.

[eachsmallcandle]

8. well,

good luck with that. :)

[Blue Belle]

14. Welcome to the DU Eachsmallcandle!

We look forward to hearing more from you!

:hi:

[karlrschneider]

16. What's your opinion of the term "japs"?

...?

[eachsmallcandle]

22. japs?

outwardly, outdated as a racist insult. then again, i don't know how it's used in other countries.

i seriously cringe when i hear that word. my history teacher in high school referred to the Japanese as "Japs." i'm pretty sure he wasn't a racist -- maybe his dad fought in the war, or something.

[BooScout]

26. 'Japs' is the same as 'Paki'...

Just because Paki & Japs are shortened versions of Pakistani and Japanese does not legitimize them as descriptive terms. They are both racist terms, both in the States and abroad.

[eachsmallcandle]

29. if you say so.

i'm not one to define what is and what isn't a racist term. i guess it's all in the eye of the beholder?

[LostinVA]

30. I grew up with a bunch of Japanese-Americans

ALL of whom had parents and grandparents put into internment camps. All of them would be knocking the teeth out of anyone who called them "Japs." I expect they still would.

[globalvillage]

9. Wasn't it the Pakistan govt who tipped off the Brits?

If it wasn't for the Pakistanis, isn't it possible this plot by British citizens wouldn't have been discovered?

Are they scum, too?

[eachsmallcandle]

10. considering their human rights record

and their exportation of Islamic Jihadism to India, i'd say it's a resounding "yes."

[BooScout]

11. So you think all people of Pakistani origin are scum?

What about America exporting our Brand of Democracy to Iraq? Are all Americans scum too?

[eachsmallcandle]

15. sorry?

i'll never understand how people can make such a leap -- oh wait, this is the internet. :)

i do believe the post i was referring to mentioned the Pakistani government. and yes, i do believe that government can be labeled scum, as i do believe this government deserves that title, etc etc etc.

scum, in my opinion, are people who hijack good institutions for their evil agendas.

[BooScout]

18. OK.......

I thought you were referring to people of Pakistani origin in general. Governments are a whole nother ball of wax. Thanks for clarifying.

[globalvillage]

17. I'm pretty sure the woman described in the OP

wasn't calling them scum based on the Pakistan government's human rights record.

Certainly, that is a topic worthy of a separate discussion. I merely pointed to the fact that it was Pakistani intelligence that led to these arrests.

[eachsmallcandle]

19. oh.

when you say "the Pakistanis," it obviously (to me, anyway) was in reference to their government.

[eachsmallcandle]

24. ah,

i'm pretty sure of that too. :)

[LostinVA]

20. My UK friends tell me "Paki" is a nasty insult in the UK

towards Indians, Pakistanis, etc. So... to me this is the same kind of thing.

[BooScout]

21. My point to her exactly...

She thinks because she didn't say 'paki scum' but rather 'pakistani scum' she's free and clear of the comment being racist and others do as well. My point was why preface 'scum' with any description denoting their ethnic background?

[LostinVA]

23. You're 100% right

[eachsmallcandle]

28. and

either way ("paki scum" vs. "pakistani scum") is obviously a dig at their supposed ancestry (i can't say ethnicity, because we don't even know what unites all those plotters -- aside from their "religion"). anyway, i'd expect to see her doing some backpedaling sometime soon. :)

[eachsmallcandle]

25. funny,

if someone called me a Paki, i'd just laugh.

those racist Brits are a weird bunch... hey, come up with some better insults, will ya?! :)

[BooScout]

27. I know people in the States who are Pakistani...

They would not laugh. It's a racist term in both countries.

[eachsmallcandle]

31. well,

it depends in context and situation, i suppose. i had a Pakistani friend who referred to his people as Pakis. i'm sure many others do, too (takes away the power from actual racists to use "Paki" as a racist word; kind of like the "N" word). it's an unintended consequence of assimilation - a blurring of labels.

of course, i'll plead ignorance -- i had no idea Paki was considered an insult. i'll still use it, though. who am i to let a racist decide what words i can and can not use? :)

[BooScout]

33. Excuse me?

Ignorance is not an excuse. I'm sorry, I don't get you very well at all.

[eachsmallcandle]

34. actually,

i can't think of a better excuse than ignorance that i haven't gained the knowledge that "Paki" could be an insult. i'm merely defining the word "ignorance" in this context.

[BooScout]

35. But you have gained the knowledge....

Here in this very post. Your chosing to ignore the knowledge provided to you doesn't make your use of the word any more acceptable.

[petronius]

32. From a technical, disingenuous, grammatical perspective

she may be correct. In this case, "Pakistani" is just an adjective, and an accurate one - she can argue that she was just describing the scum, and there is no difference between what she said and any other descriptive modifier (young, tall, educated, etc.)

In reality, however, people use adjectives when they think they're relevant - so in this case it is very likely that she saw a relationship between these guys being scum and these guys being Pakistani. So, in a bigger, more real sense, your interpretation is correct.

As an analogy, when someone calls Dick Cheney a 'fat, balding fuckstick' the adjectives are technically correct, but the overweight and the less-hairy may reasonably ask why they were included...

[cigsandcoffee]

36. If they really were going to blow planes out of the sky...

...then "scum" is probably too kind of a descriptor. But "British scum" would be more appropriate, as they were only (mostly) of Pakistani descent.