What does it take for them not to want to kill us?

[Bake]

This is a serious question; I'm not being flip. We (i.e., the US) have an enemy in the extremist militant Islamic groups. Clearly, they want to see "the Great Satan" destroyed. So my question is simple, although the answers are likely quite complex. What must the US do for the enemy to walk away -- no more hijackings, no more bombings, no more "let's knock down some airplanes bound for the US." Normally, you would think that when you have an enemy, it might be wise to talk to the enemy and find out what the root of the problem is, what can be done, etc.

If the answer is, "Well, you can just DIE; that would end it," then there is no solution and we have perpetual war.

If the answer is something like (a) pull your troops out of (pick a spot), or (b) stop propping up and arming Israel, then we have a starting point.

What things do you see that would stop this problem of people wanting the US dead?

Bake

[tridim]

1. We need to stop living up to the label of "the great satan"

The one thing we do that will guarantee more terrorism is to keep killing more brown people.

[WatchWhatISay]

10. Abolish the term collateral damage from our vocabulary

or better yet, publicly admit that the term has no place in describing mass death of people from other cultures. It shouldn't describe human accidental (or careless) killing at all, and certainly not huge numbers of people, as if it is acceptable FOR ANY REASON to kill (by conservative estimates)50,000 civilians in a four year period.

Also, we must never again utter the phrase "fight them over there, so that we won't have to fight them over here". Especially when coupled with the idea that unavoidable "collateral damage" is part of the result. It's as if we are so insensitive to the rest of the world, that we don't even understand how it makes them feel that we find it acceptable to bomb their cities and villages, and accidently kill their children and innocent civilians, so we won't have to deal with such inconveniences here. Of course if it happens here it isnt an inconvenience, its an atrocity for which we must exact overwhelming revenge.

[chascaz]

2. The Bush plan: Make the U.S. a third world country...

Once we're not a super-power anymore, they'll go after some other perceived enemy. What made us a super-power wasn't military might, though. It was our industrial and economic strength that once made our country great. Also, our ideals of equality, justice, truth and fairness and the rule of law once made us great. Now that Dumbya has thrown all those things by the wayside, it won't be long before we're fully owned and operated by China, the Saudis and the UAE. Once the (former middle-class) masses in America are living in corrugated tin shacks, and living in their own filth, Al Queada will have to go after China, after declaring their victory over the U.S.

Peace - :)

[mad-mommy]

15. great post

[paparush]

3. We could stop killing their children and grandmothers, we could stop

bombing their schools and churches. We could stop calling them "Islamic Fascists". We could get out of their holy lands.

Most of this would be accomplished if the US were energy independent. How nice it would be. Leave the Middle East and let China and Russia fight over the oil.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. We might start acting like grown-ups. The US State Department and a

real US president should become the agents of lasting peace in the ME...by negotiating a true Palestinian state and forcing Israel back to its own land. We must listen to moderate Arab states and respond with aid. We must stop vetoing any UN resolution against Israel. We have to demonstrate that we truly believe Arabs/Muslims have the right to live, decide what to do with their oil reserves, and run their governments without the 'American model'. We need to show respect to other cultures and peoples of the world.

[shadowknows69]

6. I fear the next generation (if there is one)

will have to figure that out. We've made enemies to last at least another 50 years.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. It's like trying to end all murder.

It'll never happen. Unless, of course, the US becomes a small and irrelevant country. People will want to kill us as long as we're big and important. Every celebrity gets death threats every week. It's the cost of doing business.

We could be very, very nice to everyone and there would still be terrorists. If we're very, very mean to everyone, there will be more terrorists. We should try to be nice because it's the right thing to do, not because we are scared of terrorists.

Terrorism is a threat, but a small one. Climate change is 100% certain; dying in a terrorist attack is about as likely as winning the lottery. For the much more likely event of a car accident, we just take reasonable precautions and move on with our lives. So why should terrorism even be a national priority?

[Rosemary2205]

7. It will never happen - humans are violent.

I doubt there will ever be a family on the planet who's kids never had a fight with each other much less a whole town, state, nation, world.

[wurzel]

8. Respecting their genuine grievances would be a start.

First they seem to want Western military out of their countries. What is wrong with that? They don't have their military in the West. Second they want a solution for the Palestinians that treats them like human beings. Since the Palestinians have been as badly treated as any people since the holocaust they have a point. Get All settlers out of the West Bank. It is a cheap price for Israelis. Tell the Palestinians that while it may not be just they can never return to what is now Israel. Have Arab oil profits used to build Palestinian economy. It may not work. But it has to be better that what is going on now. The Islamic lunatic fringe would still be around. But there are lunatic Christianns and Jews too. It is up to governments to deal with them

[John Q. Citizen]

9. Eventually more and more people will want the empire dead. This is

the same as it's always been.

If the US would stop financially, culturally and militarily dominating other countries then i suppose that might help.

It has nothing to do with "The Great Satan," and "The Enemy," those are but sound bites from the leaders of our empire and some other countries to rally the peasants.

It has to do with the dynamics of empire. Look at Rome. Look at Britain. Look at Imperial China. They all had their ascendancy and then they had their declines, usually a death of a thousand cuts from many many sources who finally got fed up and bled them dry.

[Alacrat]

11. I have the same question

If we were to withdraw from the ME completely, let them take over Israel, would they stop? These are the things they want, but would it completely stop the world wide violence? Would they hold us hostage with their oil? Would they fight any ME country that supplied us oil? Do they have a hatred of anyone who isn't a Muslim, and continue the violence in the name of religion? Has anyone ever asked what would it take for the world to have peace and harmony? IMO, we may gain peace and not have to live in fear if we got out of the ME, and abandoned Israel, but they would continue to fight within themselves, sunni, shia, the other sects, they would have regional civil war for years, or until one side is completely wiped out. Fighting within the Islamic sects has been going on for centuries, since the foundation of Islam, each sect hates the other, but all of them hate us more, and for now that unites them, with Iraq being the exception ie..sectarian violence/civil war.

[Bake]

12. Lunch conversation

Eight lawyers sitting around the table at lunch; I posed the same question as here. After the flip responses ("We could all convert to Islam ..." etc.), the consensus seemed to be energy independence. If we didn't need Middle East oil, we would have far less incentive to get involved in its politics, start wars, etc. And I do think that would be a helluva place to start.

That doesn't, however, solve the "Israel" issue. I'm not sure there is an answer to that, at least not one that the US would realistically ever implement.

Bake

[John Q. Citizen]

18. Oil politics is a symptom of the problem, not the problem. While I

strongly favor conservation and development of alternative energy, oil in and of itself is not what's driving US empire building.

[CJCRANE]

13. With the neocons in power

that will never be addressed. They don't want a "peace dividend", they want a Long War to replace the Cold War.

However, if the neocons were out of the way some of the suggestions above might work, or at least make htings better.

[Marie26]

14. Well

Honestly, for a certain percentage, I think the answer is - nothing. By being Western, secular & modernized, we've already offended the true religious fanatics who want to force everyone to turn the clock back to 700 A.D. That's the nature of fundamentalism. We could certainly improve things by withdrawing our troops, acting w/fairness, & stop bullying other nations. But I think for the core Islamic fundamentalist, simply being who we are is enough.

[earth mom]

16. You need to figure out who the REAL TERRORISTS are. nt

[EstimatedProphet]

17. We need to quit treating the ME as our personal gas station attendants

If you've seen Syriana, it brings this up quite nicely. We promote governments in the ME that live in astounding luxury. Princes that spend thier lives in $10,000 a night hotels, their own personal jets, etc. If they started investing that money in their infrastructure, they could develop lasting economies that would benefit all their people.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

19. I think it can be summed up in 2 words.

Foreign Policy-
Underneath our cover of Foriegn Policy is rampant multi-national corporatism. The corporations drive the foriegn policy. Corporations are in control of much of the worlds natural resources, so we can have out "American way of life"
I think if most people realized what went on in our name in foriegn countries they would be outraged and ashamed. :shrug:

[Shakespeare]

20. We can't stop it, but we can mitigate it.

There is a tiny bit of truth to the "they hate us for our freedoms" thing (though it's been hideously exploited by the bushies), so yes, extremists will always take issue with certain aspects of enlightened western society.

We could make their recruiting much more difficult, however, if our foreign policy were a little less driven by imperialism and a thirst for oil. Unfortunately for the whole world, I don't see that happening any time soon, even if our party retakes control of the government. And that is one sad fact to realize.

[RethugAssKicker]

21. TOO LATE NOW !!

We destroyed too many lives to turn back the clock now.

[maxsolomon]

22. OBL's "letter to america" directly answers your question

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

[46and2]

26. So we should trust OBL...

and throw up a blind eye as they massacre and destroy Israel? Would there then be the same humanitarian outrage as the Israeli people are rounded up and exterminated or will it just be something they have had coming to them for years now?? I don't think there is any easy answer to this but I'm pretty sure appeasing OBL is not the best way to go... My opinion.

[maxsolomon]

29. ? the OP asked what it would take

there is a ready answer easily available. in no way did i endorse OBL by posting his words. "it is permissable to learn, even from an enemy".

how you get from that to the west standing by as israelis are 'rounded up' i don't know.

OBL & Al Q are not Hezbollah. In fact a Sunni Wahhabist is quite likely to view Shiites as apostates & a natural enemy.

[46and2]

31. Point taken re: the OP

But in OBL's letter he does single out the US support of Israel and implies proper revenge is due:

"(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone."

[maxsolomon]

35. well, he's a delusional fanatic

and he should have been dead 4 years ago.

he could give a fuck about Palestine. his main motivation is to stop modernity.

[One_Life_To_Give]

23. Adopt Sharia Law and everyone convert to Islam

If you want the militants to all go away and stay away. There are some who will leave us alone, at least for now, if we left the Middle East alone. But there appear to be many who are as determined to bring the blessings of Islam to the world in the same way it was brought to Europe in the 7th century.

In a few centuries the fundamentalists may evolve to a more tolerant view, just as the Christians in Europe did. But our dependence on their oil would make it near impossible for us to live in total isolation from each other.

[BuyingThyme]

25. Name one instance where anything like this has happened.

All pertinent instances of which I'm aware have come in the form of what the attackers saw as retaliation. Nothing about religious imperialism.

Any evidence at all? Anything to support what you're saying here? Did you get this from Rush? Hannity?

[One_Life_To_Give]

33. Somalia

Afghanistan, Iraq

[BuyingThyme]

46. Man, you're ridiculous. You're under the impression that terrorists

attacked these places and converted them to Islam? Is that what people are teaching you?

[One_Life_To_Give]

54. There are none so blind

as those who will not see!

Keep teling yourself what nice people all of the terrorists are. That they will beat their swords into plow shares just as soon as we change our foreign policy. OBL will retire as soon as the infidel troops are out of Saudi Arabia. Oh wait I guess they are now, so we have nothing to fear.

[BuyingThyme]

56. You live in Bush World.

[theanarch]

24. "They" don't hate US for who we are, but they DO hate US...

...for what we do: overthrow government's we don't like; impose dictatorships that oppress (jail, torture, kill) critics and dissenters by the tens and hundreds of thousands; impoverish their countries though IMF/World Bank "loans" (see John Perkins' "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"); steal their resources; build US military bases in their countries; and above all, provide unlimited and uncritical support for Israel. As quaint as it may sound, George Washington was right: the best security the US will ever have is by having strictly commercial/trade relations with the rest of the world, and avoiding military "entanglements". Americans have to understand two things: first, that our form of "democracy" is NOT exportable; and second, that it's cheaper to pay a fair market price for, say, oil, than it is to pay (in taxes) for the military control over oil-producing countries (either through arms transfers, tech-support; training and equipping proxy armies--or outright invasion/occupation) that gives US access to oil at an artifically reduced price. I saw somewhere (a few years ago) that yes, Europeans pay more per gallon/litre at the pump than we do, but when you factor in what we're paying in (military) taxes to get that reduced rate, the actual price per gallon/litre is (or was at the time) about $3-4 MORE per gallon/litre than what European's pay. It is only because we don't pay that at the pump that we think we're getting a better deal.

Personally, i don't think "They" give the proverbial dead rat's ass about how corrupt, materialist, greedy, sex-crazed, or immoral Americans may or may not be; they just want US out of their countries and their lives...and when we see the wisdom of that, and enact a foreign policy that reflects it, the threat of "terrorism" will begin to subside. Until then, it's only going to get worse, no matter how much (Chinese? Saudi? Japanese?) we have to borrow to throw at it.

[Initech]

27. We could stop electing white fundamentalist Christians

Certainly hasnt been tried yet.

[Bake]

28. Fundamentalists??

I'll grant you that on *, at least on the surface, pretends to be a fundie. But Carter, though Southern Baptist, was hardly a fundamentalist. Neither was Clinton. For that matter, I don't know that Poppy Bush was a fundie.

So it's not like we've been electing a long string of 'em.

Bake

[Initech]

32. You forgot Reagan.

And yeah Poppy Bush was indeed a fundamentalist. His last major address in 1992 was to the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta.

[Bake]

37. Addressing the SBC does not equal being a fundamentalist.

I believe I recall that Poppy is Presbyterian, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, his admnistration was not driven by and did not cater to the fundies the way Junior's does.

Hell, Jimmy Carter didn't just ADDRESS the SBC, he was a Baptist Sunday School teacher (wish I could have been in his class!), but he was not anywhere close to being a fundie.

Bake

[Initech]

43. You're right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bush_Sr#Ultraconservative_Opposition_to_Bush_and_Bush.27s_Perceived_Liberalism

[Greyhound]

30. Very simple and impossible (from our perspective), dismantle

The Empire. Get the fuck out of everybody's business and quit imposing our will upon and enslaving people around the world.

But that ain't gonna happen.

[leesa]

34. Stop invading their countries, killing their people & stealing their stuff

It's not rocket science.

[Bake]

42. I'm not sure at this point that would be enough.

There are still bombings elsewhere in the world. Plus, do we not have some responsibility to be engaged with the rest of the world?

Bake

[MadJohnShaft]

36. Education, jobs, less royalty, happiness?

[BlooInBloo]

38. I could care less if they *want* to - just as long as they don't *try* to

... for which, in general, 2 things would seem to me to be helpful:

1) Remove/minimize the number of legitimizing reasons they have for their desire, and

2) Ensure that the consequences of acting on their desire are unacceptable to them.

[FlaGranny]

39. It would take them believing

that we are not and will not interfere in their lives and countries unless asked to help and then to believe that we would actually help.

[The Stranger]

40. They don't hate the U.S. -- they hate the U.S. FOREIGN POLICY.

Those that do actually have some psychotic hatred of the U.S. are buoyed by the effects of the U.S. foreign policy -- the invasions, occupations, shocking and awe bombings, killing, raping, torturing, exploiting, burning.

They must have really amped up the "They Hate U.S." program because it is leaking through to these boards.

[El Fuego]

41. The extremist Muslim cannot tolerate the existence of the West

They cannot achieve the ideal Islamic state until Islam is the only religion and the infidels are destroyed.

[treestar]

45. Silly

We've had long stretches in history where we did not fight them.

They have no chance of undoing the west, either.

Just silly. They will live in peace with the west if the west gets out of their business.

They even do business with us. Starting with the Saudis and the Texas oilmen.

[El Fuego]

47. Remember the Crusades?

Maybe you don't, but they do. Every schoolchild in the Arab world is taught about the Crusades and the evil European invaders as if it were recent history. Eight hundred years after the fact they still carry the grudge. bush's escapades should be worth another 1000 year grudge.

You said: "They even do business with us. Starting with the Saudis and the Texas oilmen." You're using the bush family's cozy relationship with the Saudis as a example of successful US-Mideast relations?????

Saudi oil barons are not the same as the so-called "Arab street." You have a naive and simplistic view of Mideast politics.

[treestar]

48. Yeah I've heard of the crusades, but they were in the medieval period

and that was over a long time ago.

We have been able to get along with the middle eastern Arabs over time and could do so again if we chose.

As to the Bush family connection, it goes beyond them and still goes against your original post. It's not like we can't get along with them if we choose.

[El Fuego]

52. There are ordinary people everywhere who want to

just "get along" and live in peace, it's the violent minority of Islamic extremists who are the problem. This is the group I was referring to.

[Bake]

44. So there seem to be two opposing ideas here

1. It's too late, we can't change enough, they're always going to try to kill us. One poster said we have to make the consequences of doing that unacceptable to them. Isn't that what we've been trying to do, without notable success?

2. Withdraw from the world, leave them alone, change our foreign policy, etc. I tend to think this hits a little closer to the truth, although there are limits to what we could or should do to pacify "them." We cannot abandon our traditional Western allies. We cannot allow them to overrun other democratic countries with the goal of establishing Islamic dictatorships.

So, unless we start thinking outside the box, we're going to be dealing with this for the foreseeable future. Hell, we will be doing so anyway.

Bake

[Lilith Velkor]

53. We've always been at war with Eurasia.

:eyes:

[kiahzero]

49. Nothing

It pretty much does come down to "You can just die," sadly, which means that it's not something that's going to completely go away. It isn't really like the IRA or the situation in Palestine where there's an end-game.

With that said, there are things we can do to reduce it. For one thing, not let the terrorists win by panicking. The reaction yesterday was completely inappropriate and gave the terrorists a victory. Overreacting to terrorism is as bad as underreacting, because it demonstrates that you don't even have to be successful to scare the crap out of people and advance your cause. You can also not do retarded things which do nothing to make you safer, but do a lot to piss people off and make them more likely to want to kill your citizens. Following this rule, you probably wouldn't invade Iraq or Lebanon.

[AngryOldDem]

50. We must stop insisting that everyone else follow our lead...

...in terms of our culture, our form of government, etc.

The old saying applies just as much to this situation as it does to anything else. To get respect, you have to give respect. And face it, we've been acting like the world's "Father Knows Best" for far too long, too often for our own selfish and self-serving ends.

Bill Maher, I think, said it best. "They hate us because we don't understand why they hate us." But I would amend that to read, "we don't CARE TO UNDERSTAND why they hate us."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. Those That Seek To Cause Terror Will Always Want To Kill Us.

Better policies that could be put in place with Dems in office could definitely minimize that threat and reduce the numbers that strive for such result, but the risk itself will never be extinguished completely as long as they have their extreme religious interpretations and we still have a society that that is almost the complete opposite of what that extreme interpretation states.

[WinkyDink]

55. Capitalism, particularly the brutish and vulgar U.S. brand, would have to

be made extinct.

It is deeply offensive to the social and religious mores of MANY of the world's peoples.

[Radiophile]

57. Be Careful!

Some jihadist may lop off your head while you're contemplating your navel wondering why they don't like us.