A couple of interesting loose ends on the bombing plot

[MadHound]

I've yet to make my mind up concerning this bombing plot. I can easily see something like this happening, it is, after all, the times we live in, and lord knows, the US and UK have pissed off enough people who would pull this sort of plot off.

However I'm also a deep skeptic, primarily because my government and corporate America has lied to me time and again throughout the years, with the pace picking up drastically since Bushco has come to power.

Therefore I've withheld judgment on this bombing plot, waiting for more information. And as more information has come trickling in, some distinctly odd loose ends have shown up.

The first one was yesterday evening. It was finally confirmed that the liquid explosive that was supposed to be used was TriAcetone TriPeroxide, TATP. Having a large background on hazardous materials/explosives both through my current work and from past work as a firefighter, this struck me as a bit odd yesterday, since TATP is a *very* unstable substance to just be carrying around. It is as unstable as nitroglycerin, if not more so. Thus least bump, shock, heat, etc. can set the stuff off.

Granted, it can be refined down to an explosive powder and used safely, as happened with last years London train blasts, however all news reports are stating that the explosive to be used would be in *liquid* form. Hmmm. OK, perhaps they were to mix it up on the plane, as certain reports stated yesterday. However, after chatting with a biochem friend of mine, I realize that this would require some serious equipment, that it isn't just a matter of mixing contents of bottle A with the contents of tube B and voila. This was confirmed this morning as news reports stated that the plotters planned to *assemble* the bomb onboard, ie connect the already viable TATP explosive with wires to a watch as a timing device, all carried on separately. This gets us back to the fact that the plotters would have to carry on the explosive which again, is highly unstable. Just seems like it would be too big a risk that the explosive would blow up prematurely in the airport, or the taxi ride over. Hmmmm.

Then this morning at 5 am I heard another snippet of information on NPR. Apparently most of the suspects that were picked up yesterday are married. Odd, since every single terrorist profile states it is highly likely that a terrorist will be *unmarried*<http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/frd.html> In fact these suspects seem to defy a lot of the typical terrorist characteristics. They already had, or were expecting children, decent jobs, a few were even wealthy, and were surrounded by family and friends. And apparently their actions and day to day lives didn't arouse the suspicion of their neighbors, who were actually quite shocked and in disbelief concerning the whole matter<http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_objectid=17544939&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=suburban-suspects--name_page.html> Again, Hmmmm.

And then there is the fact that their names were released. It seems, at least according to NPR, for suspects' names to be release at this point. Even odder is that it wasn't Scotland Yard or the London police who released the names, it was the Bank of England, on the authority of Chancellor Brown. Hmmm.

I am still withholding judgment on this case, it is still too early to come to any conclusions yet either way, there is simply not enough information. This entire situation could be on the up and up, exactly as the various new agencies are reporting. Almost any sort of plot like this is bound to have strange odd coincidences. But how far and how many coincidences do we allow before we call bullshit? I suppose that is up to each of us individually. And like I said, it is really too early to pass judgment one way or the other. But strange oddities and loose ends are already piling up, and cracks in the official story are starting to appear. So all I will do for now is wait, watch and wonder. Hmmmm!

[wakeme2008]

1. Very good questions and a post (NOM)

What I am waiting for is to hear THEIR attorneys tell their side of the story... Was this another Miami case with the undercover police officer doing all the planning and these were just go along married guys.

[MadHound]

2. Yes, the trial is bound to be interesting.

Hopefully it will be in public, it should be. I don't think that Britain has gone as far down the path as the US and is dealing in "military tribunals" Let's hope not.

[karlrschneider]

6. There was a report yesterday an "agent...infiltrated" the gang

but I haven't any more about that since.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1879978&mesg_id=1879978

[bluerum]

You know, if it smells like terra-crap, it probably is. I have heard

enough to have formed the opinion that yes - a suitably motivated and funded effort could pull something off - but - this smells.

I look at the flim flam jobs in Canada and Florida and see similarities to the London scam. Infiltrate a group, and encourage them to develop a terra plot. Then bust'em and wave the terra-flag. It is starting to smell.

I would appreciate quiet, effective, police work. No need to trump up a bust like this. It is similar to sticking a bag of heroin in someones pocket and then arresting them.

However like most people - I am concerned about being blown up while inflight. But I think that if efficient detective work and airport screening was in place that hazard would be greatly reduced. To date I do not see that happening.

Detective work appears to be of the set'em up and knock'em down type and airport screening has improved little since the pre-9/11 days.

[MadHound]

11. I agree with your assesment of our current detective work

During this War on Terror. It seems much more akin to the detective work used in the War on Drugs. Plant evidence, pump up minor drug users into major drug dealers, all in order to bust them and be able to claim big numbers on your resume. Set 'em up, knock 'em down, yes, it all seems very familiar.

Meanwhile, real security and detective work is sadly going by the wayside. People are inconvienced, airlines suffer, and all for what, security in name only? Oh, that and another chance for Bushco and the lapdog media to pump the public full of fear again:eyes:

[halobeam]

3. Well thought out questions and post....

I too, K&R!...

[Virginia Dare]

4. Thanks for the excellent info Madhound k&r...

I asked some similar, much less informed questions yesterday. My doubting thomas nature when it comes to these things wonders if one could even carry and control a substance powerful enough to blow a plane apart. I'm thinking you might kill some people on board and disrupt the flight, scare people, etc. But to simultaneously blow 10 planes apart over the ocean with simple substances that you carry onboard with you? It just doesn't pass the smell test with me. Why not just plant a bomb in the cargo hold? From what I understand, the vast majority of commercial cargo that goes onto airplanes is still not inspected. Blow a few airplanes apart over some major cities with some remote controlled bombs, and you're talking major destruction.

Good points about the marital status of the suspects. Makes it seem more plausible that this was all a set-up of some kind.

[dpbrown]

5. It's more lying bogeyman bullshit from the neocons

Oooooo, be scared!!!!

[annabanana]

7. Yup. We're just waiting for the facts

to leak out by accident during the hysterical crapfest spilling all over the screens..

It's sad how factual information is never, ever, the point in today's so called "newscasts".

[LSK]

8. K&R

This is the type of analysis that I expect from GD, not the constant attacks that have happened lately. It seems people get attacked lately just for asking questions and that is NOT what DU is about.

[LSK]

9. and here is the list of names

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4782343.stm

[TahitiNut]

24. One of them is 17 years old. They released his name? A minor?

The laws in England must be unusual regarding the privacy of a minor. :shrug:

PATEL, Abdul, Muneem
DOB: 17/04/1989
Address: London, E5

[PATRICK]

10. You are on to the real point

Collect how the plot is being revealed and all THOSE details surrounding the simplistic focus on the actual bomb plot. You are close to getting to a more interesting story than any plot real or fabricated.
All these should be collected like was done for 9/11 by Internet amateurs. It is of pressing concern since the energy of this event is being directed away from the truth and to exploitation serving policy goals even up to war against Iran, Syria and beyond.

Of all the types of posts revolving around the bomb story your approach is the most critically valuable.

[MadHound]

12. Thank you for the compliment

I'm truly a skeptic and cynic by nature. Some might say a tin foil hatter even, but I would have to disagree, since even my darkest, cynical suspicions have been surpassed time and again in this country, especially during the past six years.

It has almost gotten to the point where one can count on the truth being the opposite of whatever the official news story is. Sad, I remember when we had real journalism in this country. Now even NPR is nothing more than a leftist sounding propaganda machine

[Virginia Dare]

13. Couldn't agree more, Madhound.

that is the sad reality we're living in these days. I always watch the spin very closely after these events, very little of the information that comes out in the immediate aftermath turns out to be true, they just throw it out there pounding the hysteria into our brains for days, and maybe a few weeks or months down the road, it will be corrected but never in a very public fashion, it's always very subdued. What happened to those guys in Miami who were going to blow up the Sears Tower, anybody ever hear anything about them anymore? Nope, because it was all bogus.

[OneBlueSky]

14. regarding the supposed terrorists . . .

sure, things could be exactly as they say -- a major terrorist plot could have been foiled . . .

but it is also not beyond the realm of possibility that those charged with this plot are nothing more than dupes who are completely innocent of anything . . . which would be a real tragedy for those involved, to say the least . . . they wouldn't know what hit them . . .

what's the truth? . . . I have no idea . . . I just know that anything that the fascists running "the free world" say is immediately suspect and assumed to be untrue until proven otherwise . . . their track record demands it . . .

[yodermon]

15. Have the boming materials been discovered?

Haven't been able to discern this from what i've read so far. I don't watch any TV news either -- have they mentioned any such thing?

[MadHound]

16. No, I have yet to hear about any discovery of materials

I just keep hearing that the "liquid explosive" was to be made from TATP, or even more generally, a "peroxide compound"

But I seriously doubt that if they have any physical evidence of this that such information would be released they would release it before the trial. The trial(s) could, hopefully, clear up a lot of questions. Then again, they could confuse the matter even more:shrug:

[htuttle]

17. No mention of any bomb-making materials found so far

AFAIK, they hadn't gotten any yet. I did read at least one account earlier yesterday from the UK that said they hadn't quite decided yet on what they were going to use. That later morphed into 'they were going to try a test run with the chemicals'. Not sure where the truth lies in that one.

But in any case, there have been no reports of actual materials found, to the best of my knowledge.

[bluerum]

19. 95% of all homes contain the bomb making ingredients.

Medicine cabinets and entertainment centers are now bomb-making equipment.

Overnight we have all been made into potential terra-ists.

[MadHound]

20. You are so correct

With a little knowledge and common household materials, one can make all sorts of nasty shit, from bombs to poison gas. And quite frankly it would be impossible to control it. Look at meth, they keep pulling meth making ingredients off the market, or otherwise limiting their use, and the tweakers simply find something else to replace it. Same thing appllies to making bombs, pull off one ingredient and a knowledgble person with simply use something else. Hell, you can make a bomb out of vinegar and baking soda, or any other semi-refined acid and base.

[jpkenny]

18. Maybe the bloggers will pick up on your points. They are interesting.

The names were released as fast as the 9/11 hijacker's names were released.

[Zodiak]

22. In fairness, that is because they are alive

and in custody. Fingerprints and all that.

The 9/11 hijackers were motes of scattered, burnt flesh when their names were released.

As an aside, I feel EXACTLY as the OP does here about this terror plot.

[MadHound]

21. A kick

For others who are wondering about loose ends.

[marions ghost]

23. interesting...if you pick up on more loose ends

please post

[Cleita]

25. I haven't thought out the questions in detail as you have, but

my gut is sort of telling me it's nonsense made up to keep everyone scared. Many of us have been expecting some manufactured terrorist attack before the election. I don't think they'd dare pull off another 9-11 with the huge loss of life, but wouldn't a thwarted terrorist attack have the same effect of scaring people so that they will vote against their interests because they think they will be safer? I believe they believe this.

[NanceGreggs]

26. Loose end that's bothering me ...

My knowledge of chemistry is zilch, but I've been reading posts all morning about how unstable the types of materials are that were allegedly to be used.

Let's assume that the UK authorities actually believed this plot to be feasible, and alerted airport personnel to confiscate all liquids from passengers as a better-safe-than-sorry precaution.

We all saw the video clips last night - people 'tossing' their shampoo, shaving gels, toothpaste, et cetera, into large plastic bags held by airport personnel.

If you honestly thought someone at the airport was carrying a highly unstable explosive material with them, would you invite them to simply toss their items into a garbage bag in the middle of a crowded airport?

[MadHound]

27. LOL, you are so right

Toss the water in and *BOOM*, big hole in the airport floor.

The stuff they're talking about, TATP is quite unstable, as much or moreso than nitroglycerine. Quite frankly, I doubt that the person carrying it would make it to the airport, much less into a plane without blowing up.

This is just so much BS on so many levels. So much for Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.:eyes:

[NanceGreggs]

28. Yeah, it just struck me as TOO WEIRD ...

... when I was watching the news clips last night. Airport personnel calmly standing there, holding giant plastic bags that were filling up to the top, and full bags scattered all over the place behind them.

You think someone has explosive material, and you're going to leave a bag that might contain it right there on the floor?

If this had really been a plausible threat, IMHO, they would have cancelled all flights yesterday, and issued a far-reaching warning via all media that passengers were NOT to bring these items to the airport when they came back for their rescheduled flight.

[fooj]

29. This is what I think we should SCREAM from the ROOFTOPS!

IMO, this is a complete exercise in CONTROL. Why can't someone bring a chapstick on a plane yet only 10% of our check-in luggage across the country is scanned for bombing materials? That means all of these long lines and "security" checks really mean NOTHING, eh? Who cares if I have a lipstick tube with me if the belly of my plane is FULL OF EXPLOSIVES? Think about it.

[RestoreGore]

30. But yet ,our port freight isn't inspected

I just want to know if these "suspects" had airline tickets and bottles. I mean, it isn't as if the UK and US are batting a thousand in credibility on these socalled terror threats. The UK police not too long ago murdered an innocent Brazilian electrician in a subway in cold blood. And of course, 90% of the freught that comes into our ports isn't inspected AT ALL. Something is just too fishy about all of this for me.

[mhatrw]

31. None of the initial Scotland Yard reports about 7.7 mentioned TATP.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/London-Bombs-Military12jul2005.htm

[MadHound]

32. No, but numerous other reports I've seen and heard

On both television and radio have mentioned TATP, or the more ubiquitous "peroxide based liquid explosive". There's really only one liquid explosive that you can make with peroxcide, and that is TATP. It is also the explosive used, albeit in solid form, in last year's London train bombing.

[mhatrw]

33. You are correct. My only point was that initial reports from British,

French and Israeli intelligence said that the London bombers used military grade explosives that they placed on the floor.

Later, after they fingered their suspects, British investigators changed their story to TATP made in a bathtub.

The same thing happened with the shoe bomber.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Which means we're just hearing rumours that the media pays "experts" for

The media wants something to say, so they ask a tame 'expert' - probably some retired law enforcement official - to make a guess as to what was going to be used, and then they print that as if it's a fact. That's why TATP, 'peroxide', nitroglycerin, and even fuel oil-ammonium nitrate have been mentioned. One thing to remember: media ethics are far more advanced in the USA than the UK. Many UK papers cheerfully make things up and print them as fact, as long as they think they won't get sued for libel. Since the rules of what the police can say about a case in public are tighter too, to stop evidence being presented in a one-sided way before a trial, the field is free for speculation dressed as truth.

[evox]

34. Excellent overview n/t

[Bucky]

35. hmmm

I'm not commenting, except just to bookmark for later perusal

[Justice Is Comin]

36. Do the "facts" about Katrina

bring back any memories? Harummphhh. ...cough

[eridani]

37. Other chemistry options discussed here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1883785&mesg_id=1883785

Please comment.

[redacted]

38. Liquid explosives? Married patsies? Sounds bizarre. Very curious.