2 Odd Observations On The "Plot"

[ThomWV]

Listening to NPR this morning I note two things that seemed awfully odd to me concerning the 'plot' to blow up the planes.

The first is this, of the two dozen arrested most of the names have been released. However the names were not released by the Government, they were released by the Bank of England. Even if the bank is a quasi-governmental instrument wouldn't you expect an investigative agency of the Government to make the names public?

Second, we are told that the plot was infiltrated months ago. They have been following these folks and were hot on their plans. But here we are a couple of days after the arrests and no one has been charged with anything. It seemed to me that if the bad guys had been under surveillance for months someone would have had at least one charge to bring up to arrest them on. None has been forthcoming.

How odd?

[Mika]

1. 911 911 911 911 911 911 911

fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911

[mtnester]

5. Let me add something to you post - find it if you can

fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 suckers terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911 fear 911 terra 911

[Blackhatjack]

2. Just the beginning of Questions to be asked ....

Why exactly is it that arrests are announced, but charges are not made?
IF there was evidence to back up the arrests after months of surveillance, why not make at least preliminary charges to hold them? --Or are they just going to hold them indefinitely without charges, maybe give them a free trip to Gitmo to help them pass the time??

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

3. Devil's Advocate

Perhaps they got information which truly indicated these suspects were about to start the "testing" phase, and going on airlines in the next few days/weeks.

If they did not yet have the full scope of evidence against them, to know how many crimes and which specific charges to file, but could not afford to wait any longer before arresting these men, then they had not choice, did they?

Because they're able to hold the men 30 days because of their terrorist activities, it was clearly the more logical thing to do, if they thought the men had gone just about as far as they could go prior to commencing their plan, and the police couldn't wait any longer before moving in.

[ThomWV]

6. Maybe - Buy You'd Expect At Least One Jaywalking Charge In There Somewhere

Just to add legitimacy to the arrest. They could always come up with more charges later.

[praeclarus]

9. Devil's Backup Advocate

In that case, why let them get on the plane at all?

Infiltrated for months, plan known, cats arrive at
airport with explosive Gatorade...

Yet let them get on plane and let it fly a while
before bringing it back. If they needed them to
actually get on the plane for a crime to be committed,
then why let it take off?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

12. That Makes NO Sense Whatsoever

I do not comprehend your theory at all. Let them follow through with their plan?

Ummmmm.....that's like knowing someone plans to go on a shooting rampage, and waiting until he gets to the location and pulls out his weapons before arresting him.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. They had no reservations or tickets at the point of arrest...

There wasn't much of a chance of their getting on a plane.

[dipsydoodle]

4. It will be interesting to see if they all are charged

and with what offences. Possession of each of the chemicals, assuming there infact some, isn't an offence. Combining them is however an offence under our Exposives Act.

The Bank of England may have felt obliged to release the names , following instruction from Gordon Brown to freeze their assets, to prevent breaking the other laws as a side issue of following that instruction. The police may well be horrified at the release of their names but as their reason for being is to uphold the law there may well have been SFA they could have done to stop it.

Our news media are all using the terms "alleged" and "allegations". This seems to have been more so since the names were released. Protecting their rears I guess incase not all suspects are charged.

edit - actual Bank of England link on subject : http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/financialsanctions/sanctions060811.pdf

[confludemocrat]

7. Isn't there not a conspiracy until material steps are taken, thus

other than discussing or thinking about an attack-so the Brit authorities say-there isn't any clear violation of the law. Which goes along with your concern: after following them for months they should have had something to charge them with about advancing a conspiracy at least.
Yes, odd.

[dipsydoodle]

8. You may have noticed the emphasis

on the fact that only American owned airlines were to have been used. That is despite the fact none of them , apparently , had booked tickets. This leads me to believe that even if they are not charged here Bushc* may have them exported.

[lyonn]

28. Heard this a.m. that plane tickets had been found for today

and tomorrow at the home of at least one of the suspects. Course we know that we can't believe much of what we hear from the media.

[symbolman]

10. Book'em Danno

Pure "Horse"..

Ah, those were the days, when the bad guys were bad and the good guys were Good. :)

[dipsydoodle]

11. Doncha just love

age related responses. :rofl:

[symbolman]

17. LOL

Reminds me of a movie Steve Martin was in, where they were making a film by stalking Eddie Murphy, and the young woman is screwing everyone on the set, and she and Steve are talking about various films, cartoons, etc in a pathetic attempt to have a conversation, and he mentions Bogy and Becalle.. and she's going, "What?"..

"Nevermind.. You like the Flintstones? I LOVE the Flintstones!" Can't for the life of me identify the film right now..

Sheesh, our whole lives are Media Identifiers.. "Our Song", etc.. every song on the radio hits the recall button in the brain.. Oh yeah, when that song was popular I was dating such and such, and Kennedy was in office... :)

Sometimes us older people just want to see if anyone is paying attention, or still cares :)

Funny how kids still love guitarists like Jimmy Hendrix all these years later, nice bridge between the generations.

At 53 I actually remember IKE getting off a plane as a little kid, about as far back as I can go, and that's before Color TV, ah, those were the days.. LIVE black and White shows written by Rod Serling..

Now all we get are a bunch of jerks sitting on Islands bitching about having nothing to do, funny, eh?

[dipsydoodle]

20. That film was Bowfinger

One of my daughter's favorites. Very funny.

"Song on the radio hits the recall button in the brain" - me too and I'm 62. Listening and dancing to music dates stuff for me especially as I taught myself to dance back in 1960. Had a real laugh a few years back when a lady I was dancing with sung the words to herself of a Chuck Berry tune. I said "Kay - to know those words you'd have needed to have been around mid fifties when that track was released". She just groaned and smiled i the knowledge she was the same age as me.:)

People remember Hendrix cos he was so good. There's really only two types of music - well played and not well played. The genre doesn't matter too much. I'm dreadful - hear a track on the radio whatever which I like, find which CD it's on using a German database and then buy it through Amazon it just for that track.

We didn't get colour TV until 1967 and I can remember being fascinated that the Virginian's shirt was maroon !

Rod Serling - do do do do do do etc ............in the Twilight Zone. :)

[tenshi816]

32. Oh lord, Symbolman,

just thinking about reality TV makes me start grinding my teeth, but at least you've now taken my mind off of everything else going on today and that's a good thing.

[craychek]

13. USE SOME SENSE PEOPLE!!!

This is basic infiltration and detective work 101. I'll try to make this real simple...

1) you discover a plot/criminal activity involving lots of people from various diffrent geographical regions

2) You monitor, infiltrate, and gather information on activities/people involved/where the money is coming from, etc.

3) This information helps net more people that are involved and helps build solid case against the group

4) When the plan becomes developed enough, when there is enough evidence, or when circumstances force officials to act, you arrest all those involved quickly and halt the group's criminal activities/plots...


Do you all remember the donnie brasco thing with the mob? They had TONS of information on the criminal activities of several the mob guys, but they did not arrest them and kept gathering information until they had no choice but to act and start making arrests. This netted over a 100 mob guys and effectively evicerated the mob in at least two states as opposed to just stopping a few low level mobsters.

Again, patience will get you more people and allow you to get more criminals that are higher up in the food chain. The officials here did EVERYTHING right in waiting to capture these guys until they had to.

[underpants]

14. DING exactly-they might take you to even bigger fish

Since it involved Pakistan (in this age did they really need to GO somewhere to learn bombmaking?) maybe they thought it could lead them to oh....Bin Laden.


Good points there craychek and Welcome to DU :hi:

I did however think it was strange that the names were listed on the Bank of England's website :shrug:

[Postman]

15. Possibly. Unlike the way the Bush crowd handled Naeem Noor Khan..

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/10/149253&mode=thread&tid=25

Pakistan and Britain are accusing the Bush administration of undermining its fight against al Qaeda by revealing the name of computer expert Mohammad Naeem Noor Khan while he was still working as an undercover double agent

...Unnamed U.S. officials leaked his name to the press in an attempt of the Bush administration to defend last week's heightened terror threat level

[lyonn]

30. Another Bingo!

[The Stranger]

16. There is a real danger here that this group wasn't going to act at all.

It is very possible that after monitoring them for months (or years) and infiltrating them, they realized they had spent all of that money investigating a dead end. So what did they do?

Moved in anyway to make arrests. Sounded the trumpets. Only there does not yet appear to be any real act committed, only "martyr" tapes and an "alleged plot." These are not crimes (at least, not yet).

So there we are.

[ThomWV]

18. Your Argument Fails On The 4th Point

You begin your 4th point with this, "When the plan becomes developed enough, when there is enough evidence, or when circumstances force officials to act, you arrest ..."

And there is where you are wrong. You do not arrest people when their plans become developed enough. You arrest people when they have broken the law. There is a very big difference betweem the two.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Conspiracy to murder is breaking the law

If they thought they had proof of conspiracy, then they had proof of law breaking. Waiting until they've taken explosives on a plane would put the public at risk.

[theHandpuppet]

19. Makes sense to me

Good post.

[LSK]

22. what evidence do you have that #4 holds true?

[shadowknows69]

21. Have any explosives been found?

n/t

[confludemocrat]

27. No, and no substantiation that a liquid-based bomb would be other than

highly unstable and very difficult to handle without blowing up prematurely and almost nothing on how a peroxide in some liquid form could be combined with something in a practical way under the conditions of a crowded passenger plane

[Hubert Flottz]

23. I have reason to believe this plott is reel...

Here is a picture!

[spanone]

24. It was a 'convenient' time to have a test run for early November.

[annabanana]

25. Now you-all know better than to look for facts in the

media shitstorm..You know you're going to have to go fact hunting in honest periodicals worldwide and line up one story with another until a cohesive picture of what's really happened emerges.

The shitstorm is just the starting bell. The journalism is up to you!

[kath]

26. TERRA, TERRA, TERRA, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, TERRA, TERRA,

TERRA, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR.

911!! 911!! BOOGAH, BOOGAH, BOOGAH!

2nd verse, same as the first -- c,mon now! TERRA, TERRA, TERRA...

Let's end with the chorus - real loud now! 911!! 911!! BOOGAH, BOOGAH, BOOGAH!

[karlrschneider]

29. I'd like to know how "they" managed to, in a few short hours

develop, approve and disseminate the new boarding "rules"

stock the security points with plastic bags for carry-on stuff to give out

design, order and print all the new signs, pamphlets, notices, etc.

...for starters...