I think this plot was real...and I think a boatload of lives were saved...

[truebrit71]

...But here's my question....why would you blow up 10 jets over the Atlantic Ocean like the talking heads and some in the DHS have suggested? Who gets to see that, a few whales and the odd fishing trawler? I don't want to get morbid here but if you were going to go for maximum impact wouldn't you want them to explode over heavily populated areas? Like, I dunno, New York City, Los Angeles, Washington D.C.........

I think we dodged a HUGE bullet today, and thanks to the work of some dedicated folks that actually ARE looking for the bad guys, were we able to avert a truly horrific and tragic day....

Flame away if you like, but the folks that did the legwork on this (the British Intel folks etc) don't give a rat's ass about Joe Lieberman, the American Mid-Term elections, inflating *'s ratings, or any of the other myriad reasons posited by the "I call bullshit" doubters...They simply did their jobs, connected the dots and prevented an horrendous act from occurring, and thank God they did, because the alternative would have been dreadful.

[bluestateguy]

1. I can accept that it was real

but it must also be stressed that the interdiction of this plot was because of the hard work of the British, not the bumbling Keystone Cops in Washington D.C.

[truebrit71]

2. My point exactly...I understand the obvious skepticism....

...but this was a BRITISH operation...

If it was another announcement from the current mis-administration I would probably be calling bullshit too...

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

37. Didn't they make use of NSA data?

I thought I heard that sometime today...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. I think it would have been a much more tragic outcome

Had they been in charge. I agree.

[cdsilv]

3. Perhaps we did dodge a bullet... I think we may have.

However, we do have politicians trying to get political 'points' from this as we always will have.

Call me a cynic, but politicians of all stripes will always try to 'make hay' out of real or potential tragedy.

I'm tired of it - the 'Cry Wolf' nature of our current political discourse. When the US can allow a major city to DROWN, because it doesn't score anybody any political points, yet we have an around the clock hue and cry because we found out someone 'might' use binary explosives on some airplanes I wonder about our sense of proportion.

Clorox and ammonia.


Think about that.

[Marie26]

4. Exactly.

Props to the British & Pakistani officials who actually tracked these guys done. I think this proves just how ineffective the Bush Ad. policies are. Even w/all the new facist "reforms" the US has instituted, it appears the CIA, FBI, DHS were largely MIA here. The British unraveled this plot w/old-fashioned detective work & connecting the dots. Not torture, not racial profiling, not blanket harassment of citizens, etc. (BTW, a terrorism expert said that they planned to explode over the ocean to prevent recovery of any evidence of what happened.)

[Bobbieo]

5. Had this plot succeeded, it would have totalled the airline industry.

and done a real number on the economy.

[SKKY]

13. That's my vote for understatement of the year....

...it's difficult to get the brain around just how "bad" this would have been.

[Bobbieo]

25. And would have wiped out some 2.000 people!

[Snivi Yllom]

49. far beyond the airline industry, think world economies, politics, war

It would have had a global effect on buisness, tourism, and the economies of all nations.

I have yet to see anyone really begin to discuss the possible response to a successful terrorist attack that brings down 10 passeneger aircraft that kills 2-3 thousand people.

The global impact on politics and any subsequent military response is frightening to comtemplate.

We should be damn thankful this was stopped. The mindless bullshit conspiracies I see here are making me physicall ill. It's sad how far gone some have reached with their distrust and paranoia. Sort of understandable, but not really.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. I agree.

I believe there was a real plot (though how far they had got with it remains to be seen), and it was apparently thwarted by some very good police work by British law enforcement. No argument there. What's giving me heartburn is how the Republicans, with the help of the U.S. media, are spinning the incident to their advantage; and, of course, the predictably absurd overreaction by the rocket scientists at the TSA.

[mmonk]

7. I have the same problem about the planes blowing up over the

Atlantic. These terrorists must be amateurs because al Queda looks for symbolism in their targeting (Cole, World Trade Center, Pentagon, Capital Hill, Embassy, the Building in Saudi Arabia).

[Vinnie From Indy]

8. You may be right

I would love to know why you are so certain this plot was real? Is it just a "gut" instinct? Should the past few years of lies, deception and "fixed" intelligence enter into your belief?

[billbuckhead]

19. Sure does seem like Al Qaeda rides to the rescue everytime Bush stumbles

How many times has "Al Qaeda" stepped up to prop up a sagging Bush regime? A dozen or more? Certainly is an overwhelming coincidence.

Who is Al Qaeda?

"Al-Qaeda evolved from the Maktab al-Khadamat (Office of Services, MAK) — a Mujahidin organization fighting to establish an Islamic state during the Soviet war in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a founding member of the MAK, along with Palestinian militant Abdullah Yusuf Azzam. The role of the MAK was to channel funds from a variety of sources (including donations from across the Middle East) into training Mujahidin from around the world in guerrilla combat, and to transport the combatants to Afghanistan. The MAK was mostly funded by donations from wealthy Muslim individuals but was also allegedly aided by the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and indirectly by the United States, which channeled most of its support and military hardware via the Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate. During the latter half of the 1980s, the MAK was a relatively minor grouping in Afghanistan with no direct combatants; rather it limited its activities to fund raising, logistics, housing, education, refugee care, recruitment and the financing of other Mujahideen."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Queda>

[Marie26]

20. For me

it's cause this was led by the British police, not Bushco. (who seemed to not have a clue). This plot is centered in the same Pakistani community where the July bus bombing was planned. There's apparantly evidence they traveled to Pakistan & received funds from a terror organization to buy the tickets. This isn't 7 random guys in Miami making up stuff in front of an FBI agent. This was real. That said, Bush will take every opportunity to overreact & overestimate just how close it was to completion. I think the TSA reaction was completely hysterical & over the top. That doesn't change the fact that there apparantly was a real plot here.

[seriousstan]

9. Because there would have been no evidence as to how they did it.

Therefore they could have done it again.

[Snivi Yllom]

51. I thought of that too, TWA 800 was a difficult recovery in 100' of water

It's much harder to recover pieces of airplanes from 10,000 feet of water.


Almost impossible to investigate. Remember how long it took to scour the offshore of Long Island for TWA 800? That was only about 100-150 feet deep.

[SaveElmer]

10. I believe it was real...and evidence of Bush's failed anti-terrorist ...

Policy...

We are past the days when the American people are going to rally around Bush everytime we are the target of a potential terrorist attack...instead people are going to be asking why we are still having to endure them...and why do there seem to be more terrorists now than ever before...?

[nam78_two]

11. That occured to me too

When all is said and done though, I do believe that Islamic fundamentalism (like many other types of religious fundamentalism-Christian, Hindu,Jewish etc.) is real.


I think its also fostered and fed by greedy corporatocrats (specially from Big Oil) who benefit from it...

As an atheist and a scientist, who is in a field where religious fundieism of various stripes is being a pain in the ass, I do tend to believe that all religions carry a strain of insanity with them :eyes:
Don't get me wrong..I think the majority of religious people are sane but I have very little difficulty usually accepting that people do nutty things for religious reasons....
Am losing all patience with it..

[Mz Pip]

12. 10 jets

blowing up over the Atlantic would be catastrophic. No need to see pictures. The impact in peoples' minds would be off the charts.

I do not believe the people involved in this cared one bit about who won the CT primary. They are looking at the bigger picture which is terrorizing the US. Sorry to say, our government give them all the attention they need, even if they are not successful.

There really are terrorists. BushCo seems to have a symbiotic relationship with them. BushCo feeds off of this stuff. They use it to boost the credibility of their policies. It's sick.

Just watch the almost gleeful reaction of the Neocons to this. They are happy there was a terrorist plot. They revel in the fact that there are people who want to kill us. It validates them. It gives them ammo to use against us.

It's fake. Dems are not weak on terror. Just because these are their talking points, does not make it so.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Cha]

14. Good for them...and

joe lieberman and his swarmy ilk are just trying to cash in on some fine intelligence by the Brits.

[DistressedAmerican]

15. Hundreds killed would scare the shit out of us.

They do not need pictures to scare people. They do not need pics to fuck up the airlines. They do not need pictures to get their goals accomplished.

The other thing, no emergeny landing over the ocean.

Not a mystery at all.

[DemInDistress]

23. I don't buy it,, why use jets from Britain for a trail run why not

Cairo,Athens or Rome? Where intelligence is not as sharp as MI5. It stinks. Came just in time to wipe out the momentum from a Ned Lamont victory. Think about it, for the last 2 days its been almost all Lamont and that
loserman lieberman and now suddenly it "ALL TERROR ALL THE TIME" just like on Aug 1 2004 after the Democratic
Convention in Boston we had a "TERROR ALERT" FROM NYC of all places. Its one good way to kill any bounce Democrats might have had.

It just smells of politics. If MI5 knew of this plot in Dec. why now? Did these perps have a working liquid bomb? I'd like to know..

[Marie26]

24. That's so self-centered

We care about Lamont, therefore the entire world, British intelligence, Pakistani police, & the airline industry also care deeply about the CT election, & have oriented their entire operations around stymieing those liberals. The world is so much bigger than that. There are other actors beyond Bush & Rove in the world. They launched this from Britain cause they're British citizens. Just like Richard Reid, just like the people who carried out the London bombing last July.

[DemInDistress]

32. have you seen a working model of this liquid bomb? has anybody?

[DistressedAmerican]

45. Since they actually used one in the test run for the Bojinka Plot,

I have no need to see plans or pictures of such a device.

They have used one and it has killed. They do exist and they do work. What more do you need to know?

Denial out of your own lack of info is not much of a case.

[Iowa]

39. I disagree...

"Hundreds killed would scare the shit out of us."

It wouldn't scare me - not in the least.

We must get beyond this business of being frightened by bogeymen. How may people die in car accidents every day? How many from cancer? How many from lack of proper health care?

There are many things to fear if we dwell on them. Terrorism is just one among many. The only real difference is all the drama associated with it.

If we ramp down the fear factor, we minimize its value as a tool for those who would use terrorism for political gain.

And seriously... there are many things we should fear more than terrorism.

[FiveGoodMen]

40. That really needed to be said!

:applause:

[DistressedAmerican]

44. You maybe. America Would Be Reshocked.

If you think that is the attitude shared by most Americans, you should look around you. The fear still hangs thick from 9/11.

[Iowa]

58. Nah, I don't believe it...

Not real fear. It's more a matter of "group-think", attention seeking, and people wanting to coalesce around a common experience. It reminds me of Columbine. Half the teachers in Podunk Iowa were feigning "fear" over that one. Every five-year old with a squirt gun in his backpack was considered a big threat. It was ridiculous.

A couple of years ago there was an episode of "Rescue Me" that nailed it. A NYC fireman was having problems dealing with the loss of co-workers on 9-11, so he reluctantly decided to go to group therapy. When he got there, he listened as all the people described their terrible struggles with "fear". Eventually it became obvious that he was the only one who had actually been at ground zero - and the only one who had lost someone. He went ballistic because they were using the tragedy to seek attention.

There are a relatively small number of people who were killed by terrorists on 9-11. There are roughly 40,000 deaths EVERY SINGLE YEAR by auto accidents alone (200,000 since 9-11), yet few seem to fear getting into a car. Why? No drama.

I think it's long past time that progressives recognize much of this "fear" for what it really is, and call bullshit. It led to the Patriot Act and the erosion of our freedom.

[fishwax]

56. we have nothing to fear but fear itself

[Iowa]

59. Exactly, fishwax!

[fishwax]

64. what you said resonated with me

and I think that we need leaders to stand up and say what FDR said, while pointing out that our fear has already cost us so many of our precious freedoms. Our country has sold out to fear on a massive scale, and it's really unfortunate.

[C_U_L8R]

16. I don't know if it's real or not

but the republican exploitation and profiteering off this is truly SICK.

It's a sickness... these rightwing creeps just don't know right from wrong.

[MadMaddie]

17. I think the plot was real because British Intellegience was

in charge of the investigation....it's that simple.

If this would have happened on US soil with the political positioning the * cabal is doing....I fear that the results might have been different.

[soothsayer]

22. unless their 'insider' to the terra cell was anything like ours (i.e.,

ours actually CREATE terra cells and tell them to do things like blow up planes and offer to sell them stuff to do it, then when they say 'ok I guess' we go "AHA! Got you, al qaeda!!"

[NNN0LHI]

18. Look at the bright side. No Brazilian electricians were shot in the head

How do we know some people weren't tortured into confessing to what they were told to confess to?

Sure wouldn't be the first time.

I would be more assured this was the real deal if we didn't torture people all the time.

Don

[eridani]

43. How many is a--

--oops, sorry, bite my tongue!

[AnnieBW]

21. I Wholly Agree

Just because the Bushbots are creaming their jeans about this doesn't mean that it was a bullshit threat. I do think that we dodged a bullet today, thanks to the Brits and their patience. If it was the FBI, they'd have charged in weeks ago and blew the whole operation. The Brits have a LOT more experience in dealing with this stuff than we Yanks do - unfortunately, because of their escapades in Northern Ireland.

Like you said, the Brits don't care about American politics. They all pretty much hate * and the Poodle. But they care about the people on those airliners, and everyone else that has to travel through Heathrow. I'm glad that they were on the job.

Cheers to the lads and lasses at MI-5! :toast:

[Oleladylib]

26. Great posting..totally agree!

[TayTay]

27. Exactly. They took the threat seriously and did their jobs

I wish the American President and Congress would see to it that law enforcement in this country had the money and resources to make sure that they can do their job on this end. We had a debate in the US Senate last month about Homeland Security and wound up with a report that said that a quilting festival or a petting zoo was a 'terrorist target' but that New York City just didn't have that many landmarks that warranted protection.

Congratulations to the professionals in he UK who did their jobs and probably did save a lot of lives. That is how it should be done and this is how you fight the proponents of terrorism. I really hope that Congress pays attention. We need to fund this kind of effort in this country and stop funding things like the Iraq War that make the threat of terrorism worse.

[Telly Savalas]

28. Weren't those planes schedule to land at some point?

Why couldn't terrorists wait until the planes have nearly reached their destinations?

[-..__...]

57. Out in the middle of the Atlantic...

and at max altitude, forget about any chance of survivors or rescue effort.
And in the event an explosive device causes minimal damage or fails to bring the plane down, it's
along way to make it safely to the nearest airport. There's also more fuel onboard.

[BushOut06]

29. Is this the same British Intelligence that stands by the "yellow cake"?

I'm just wondering, is this the same MI5 that to this day continues to stand by the Iraqi 'yellow cake' story? We're also talking about a country that squelched the Downing Street memos.

It might be a real story. But do you find it impossible that Britain wouldn't help out its primary ally?

[kitty1]

30. As to why planes would be blown up over Atlantic ocean....

as opposed to a large city for impact. For one thing, the shock value of 10 jets exploding in midair almost simultaneously would be more than traumatizing enough without having to crash in some city. Another consideration might be the probability of someone noticing something going on as they're landing. On approach to the airport, attendants are putting items away, making sure trays are up etc.,,so a person's behaviour could be more conspicuous. If something goes wrong with the first attempt too, they wouldn't have that extra time for an alternate plan B solution if there was one.

[leesa]

31. Some people will believe anything.

[raysr]

33. Think about the timing.

This is bullshit just like the Osama tapes just before election 2004. But if your an Xian, what'd ya worried about? The Rapture, the rapture!

[colorado thinker]

34. Isn't it interesting that it has been the Metropolitan Police,

Scotland Yard, and British Intel that break the plot, find the bombers, etc.? All without 2600 dead soldiers, $300 billion dollars, thousands of dead civilians, etc?

[AZBlue]

35. No flames here!

I think you're spot on!!

[Stinky The Clown]

36. Thanks for a sane post - K&R

There are really two issues here - fact and spin.

Like you, I believe this was real and it was thwarted by good police work. I can also understand the skepticism of those who hold the opposite view. I don't agree with them, but I understand. However, both the believers and the skeptics will have to wait (maybe forever) to get the actual, irrefutable facts.

The spin is a whole other issue. It is constant and it is drowning out all semblence of reason. It also begets the skepticism. That said, I think the skeptics and the believers can agree - the spin is a real problem.

If the believers are wrong, then they've cried wolf once too often for some of us and next time we may put ourselves at risk simply because they caused us to mistrust even more than our healthy skepticism allows. If the skeptics are right, then we are already past that point and closer to 'well and truly fucked'.

[tinrobot]

38. Totally agree... but why did the plot get this far at all?

It was a real plot and it was really dangerous.

But... if Bush really went after Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden five years ago... this plot may have never even been hatched.

This is not a victory, it's a very clear indication that this administration has not mitigated the real threat of terrorism. I know one thing for sure - I don't feel safer.

[treestar]

41. It may have been real, but had no real chance of suceeding

Like many such plots may be.

And none of it was a threat to "our freedom" or "our way of life."

That's all just Bushit.

[Snivi Yllom]

52. No chance? Ask Haruki Ikegami's family if they had no chance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bojinka

In 1994, Yousef and Khalid Sheik Mohammed started testing airport security. Yousef booked a flight between Kai Tak International Airport in Hong Kong and Chiang Kai Shek International Airport near Taipei. Mohammed booked a flight between Ninoy Aquino International Airport near Manila and Kimpo International Airport near Seoul.

The two had already converted fourteen bottles of contact lens solution into bottles containing nitroglycerin, which was readily available in the Philippines. Yousef taped a metal rod to the arch of his of foot in place of the detonators. Yousef and Mohammed wore jewelry and clothing with metal to confuse airport security.

On December 11, 1994, Yousef built another bomb, which had one tenth of the power that his final bombs were planned to have, in the lavatory of the aircraft and left it inside the life jacket under his seat, 26K, after he got off the plane from a flight that arrived in Cebu. Yousef had boarded the flight under the assumed name of Armaldo Forlani, using a false Italian passport. The aircraft was Philippine Airlines Flight 434 using that aircraft on a Manila to Narita route. Yousef had set the timer for four hours after he got off the aircraft. The bomb exploded while the aircraft was over Minami Daito Island, near Okinawa, Japan. A Japanese businessman named Haruki Ikegami was killed after the bomb detonated. The Boeing 747-200 safely made an emergency landing in Naha, Okinawa. None of the aircraft's other 272 passengers or any members of the crew were killed, although 10 passengers in front of Ikegami were injured. Yousef then planned which flights to attack for Phase I.

[seabeyond]

46. using investigative techniques? like police do. that will never get

the terrorists. oh no, the only way is to start wars in countries

they did their job. good that they caught them. this is our world. will get 99% of them and 1% gets by to release a bit of hell on earth

now we dont take bottle water into airports? all gels out of carryons and thrown into a trash bag. oh ya, the threat of bomb is there.

no i dont think this has to do with lieberman either. but was is this an impression. can it be what bushco's have created over the years. can they be responsible for this attitude from we the people. i think so. i will say shame on bush

[Snivi Yllom]

47. you are much more likely to destroy the plane w/ no survivors over water

think about it

Video of the crashes would be nice from a terrorists point of view, but I recall the TWA 800 floating wreckage, especially the burning floating piecesand the obvious TWA logos as pretty memorable.

What they really want to do is crash the planes, cause global fear, and ground the airline system worldwide casuing maximum damage. Crashing 9 or 10 planes at the same time would do that. Who would want to fly after that?

If you have the bombs go off midway across the ocean, you put the planes at their maximum distance from an emergency landing if you only managed to damage a plane. The longer a damaged plane is in the air, it gives any surviving terrorists more time to do more damage, or to actually let the plane fail catastrophically. They were going to use TATP. TATP violently expands as it detonates. In a pressurized airplane at 37,000 feet, overpressure in a plane could really do substantial damage via explosive decompression. Could they go for trying to detonate the planes over NYC or DC or Chicago at 5-10,000 feet? Of course, but they have a greater chane of bringing down the plane from a high altitude than at a low altitude.

And forget about a water landing? Did you ever see the footage of the hijacked Ethiopian airplane making a water landing/crash?

[qanda]

48. How many of these threads will we have to endure?

We believe already!!!!! Take me to your leader.

[TheFriedPiper]

50. Well, you can't fool all the people all of the time

but they sure can fool enough of the people enough of the time.

geez.


plots? maybe
plans? possibly

means? not likely
method? none
materials? none
logistical support? none


-shaking head-

[Odin2005]

53. It is real, and show how incompetent * is in protecting us.

All the hard work was done by the Brits and Pakistanis.


What I am concerned about is how both the US and UK are using draconian crap at airports to scare people.

[msmcghee]

54. If your purpose was to guarantee the maximum . .

. . number of American deaths and you lived in England - this is probably how you'd do it. Where else could you be assured of finding so many Americans concentrated in a small vulnerable place as on a return flight to the USA from England in the last month of summer vacation?

Your only alternative would be to go to this country and set up a completely different attack. They could make all the arrangements for this (purported) attack living and operating in their own familiar environment at minimum expense and exposure.

Makes sense to me. It would have been devastating if they had succeeded.

[kentuck]

55. I don't "think" so...

But the logical position is one of skepticism. You do not have the facts and I do not have the facts. We only have what we have been told by our governments. Maybe they are being truthful and maybe they are not? Why should we believe them this time?

[Beelzebud]

60. I think the plot was BS, and fear has once again robbed ppl of reason.

Be afraid!

Go shopping!

[wryter2000]

61. Very true

Flame away if you like, but the folks that did the legwork on this (the British Intel folks etc) don't give a rat's ass about Joe Lieberman, the American Mid-Term elections, inflating *'s ratings, or any of the other myriad reasons posited by the "I call bullshit" doubters...They simply did their jobs, connected the dots and prevented an horrendous act from occurring, and thank God they did, because the alternative would have been dreadful.

*'s timing of the release of the information is BS, for sure. But the folks who broke up this plot did a great job. This is the sort of work that should be done to fight terrorists. And we can hammer home over and over that torture and war did nothing to uncover this plot. In fact, if it weren't for the war in Iraq, this plot would never have been conceived in the first place.

[EstimatedProphet]

62. The plot can be real and this still used to manipulate the public

I don't think that it even matters whether the plot was real or not. What matters is that this administration is using it to scare the public, they are claiming success when they weren't even involved, and they are using it to attack their opponents in a cowardly, lying fashion. Without the media response and the 'impromptu' 2 minute speech from the Fucktard-in-Chief, this story is nothing more than a foiled plot.

[Zomby Woof]

63. British Intel dropped the ball on the subway bombings last year

So pardon our skepticism on this side of the ocean about its effectiveness or competence. Plus, far too many times, supposed terror plots have turned out to be vaporous, and excuses for Bush and his media enablers to ramp up fear and paranoia at opportune times.

My issue isn't the "reality" of the plot, it's the breathless, fear-mongering saturation of coverage. The Lieberman defeat IS important in the larger context that it was a bellweather for American opinion on the Iraq debacle, and so the American media coverage of the alleged plot was ramped up beyond the norm; and whether intentional or not, it was most definitely seized upon by the more openly right-wing media in our country as a way of saying "See? By kicking pro-war people out of office, we're emboldening terrorists!"

So skepticism aside, we more sensible and less fear-prone Americans reserve the right to question the quality of coverage of this whole matter, which is what this is really about for most of us.

[LSK]

65. did the plotters have any chemicals and did they buy tickets?

Nobody can confirm this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1885995&mesg_id=1885995