Just because we hate the administration doesn't mean this wasn't real

[WilliamPitt]

This sounds to me like an attempt to follow through on an old project by Ramsi Yousef. They called it Project Bojinka, which means "Loud Bang," it was hatched in the early 90s, and it was aimed at blowing up 20 or so planes over the ocean at the same time. The fall-back plan was to crash planes into buildings. We knew all this after 1995, when we caught Yousef in the Philippenes and sweated this out of him.

Yousef, it should be said, is the real deal. He wasn't a Muslim fanatic, unless the Koran has special dispensations for strip clubs and booze. He was a soldier, and he was effective. The first WTC bombing was no LIHOP. He did it, and looked to do more.

Yes, this administration is packed with liars. Yes, this could be a bullshit scare tactic. But it sounds enough like Bojinka to think these guys may have been trying to follow through on a plan that is more than 10 years old.

Some background:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091105A.shtml


EDIT: I am certainly not dogging anyone for doubting this. That's just wise at this point, and they've chucked the Terra! thing against the wall so many times for no reason that doubt is also required. But this just sounds too much like something that has been out there since 1993.

The timing of the release of this information is a whole 'nother thing. I don't doubt they are using this to maximum effect. What do you expect from a pig but a grunt? Doesn't mean the plot itself was fake.

[gully]

1. It has been said that Osama wishes to assist Republicans.

They appear to know our political backdrop huh?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

52. Said? The CIA proved it!

CIA Analysis of the bin Laden tape released the FRIDAY before the Bush Kerry election in 2004 lead to the conclusion that Osama's intention was to help BUSH win re-election.

http://www.anonymousliberal.com/2006/06/october-surprise-revisited.html

[gully]

97. I stand corrected. It has been PROVEN that Osama likes Repubicans

controlling American security. ;)

[Odin2005]

119. Bingo, the tin foilers have it turned around.

OBL wants the Neo-Cons in power because he gets more recruits.

[greyl]

2. Thank you, agreed. nt

[MercutioATC]

3. Thanks, Will.

I've been posting similar statements all morning.

Perhaps the weight of your reputation will get a few people to listen.

[YDogg]

4. Agreed. Not everything we read, see, or hear is false, or some conspiracy.

[McKinneyIsAHero]

5. My sister works for DHS

From my knowledge they don't just make stuff up for fun. Politicians like Bush will say whatever unsubstantiated bullshit they want (I don't see how this terror plot relates to us having to be in Iraq -- that's total crap), but the officials don't usually stage terrorism for the benefit of the politicians.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. This happened in Great Britain

not here, where DHS is.

[McKinneyIsAHero]

21. Which makes me wonder how so many are seeing a Bush conspiracy

Blair is a bush lapdog but still the British government itself seems very much to be independent of Bush. They didn't recoil to Bush's side after 9/11.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. So why is the media giving props to dubya?

He didn't foil anything.

[WilliamPitt]

28. When do they not?

Your question is like asking "Why does rain fall down?"

Because that is its nature.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Yes you are right

How silly of me to ask that question. All this terra alert stuff has my brain clogged.

[McKinneyIsAHero]

35. They're fear-mongering sensationalist idiots controlled by the elite

and made for profit, not peoples' issues.

If you want the short version, that is.

[tenshi816]

63. They're not giving him props over here in the UK!

They know the British public wouldn't buy it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Glad to hear that!

[tenshi816]

75. Don't worry, Shrubbie isn't a popular guy in Britain.

Even my very conservative 75-year old mother-in-law thinks he's an idiot, and she's not really political at all. She just knows stupid when she sees it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. My sister's husband has an office in London

and they spend every July in a cottage somewhere in the countryside outside of London. They have been doing this for 25+ years. She said until 2000, she wasn't ashamed to be an American. Now the locals there just pepper her with questions every summer. Do Americans REALLY like bush? How did he manage to get elected twice? Is he really that dumb? LOL

[mogster]

92. Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x17754

[progressivebydesign]

60. remember that terror plot recently that was broken up in the US?

The one where I think they were supposed to be bombing a major building. It was all over the White House press, all over DHS, all over the media, and it turned out it was a loosely organized, homegrown group, with no resources, only boasting on a website.

That explains why people are skeptical.. too many breathless terror threats have turned out to be much less than advertised and used by the GOP and Fox News. Often these turn out to be much less than hyped. I think it's ridiculous for people to dismiss the threat right away because of their feelings about the untruthfulness of Bush and Blair, but healthy skpeticism is warranted. Bush and Blair have been hanging out a lot lately and they're both conveniently on vacation...

Having said that, I have noticed an increase in air traffic from the nearby AFB this week, as if they were on alert or something...

[McKinneyIsAHero]

62. TERROR TERROR is also a Democrat tactic unfortunately

and I expect it to be used when they regain power, even if not to the fine art Bush has made it.

[acmavm]

Sure, it COULD be true. But how would we know? We've been

lied to so many times before. And at the most conveeeennnnnniiiieeeennnnnnt times.

[WilliamPitt]

8. Convenient for whom?

If you operate under the assumption that bin Laden loves Bush and his tactics (because it keeps OBL flush with recruits), then perhaps the timing is meant to help OBL by throwing a lifeline to George at a moment when he is on the ropes.

[acmavm]

30. I think of that relationship as being rather symbiotic. They

feed off each other. Two of the world's biggest terrorists giving each other what they need to survive and prosper.

[mhatrw]

83. What does this have to do with Bin Laden? n/t

[displacedtexan]

If it was real, the govts did nothing to protect people flying for months.

Does not exactly make me feel safer, Will.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

11. but people are now dripping with sarcasm about inconveniences

and that's WITH a credible threat. Without one, months ago? People would have flipped at the extra security.

[bowens43]

20. The threat is over .

Why implement extreme security measures after the threat has been neutralized and made public?

It's bullshit. More games from that arrogant piece of shit in the oval office and his lapdog in London.

[Bitter Cup]

78. Exacty

The plan may have been real but the current response to it is still WRONG.

Future generations are going to curse us for passing along genes that were capable of this level of idiocy.

I can't wait for the upcoming "Underwear Terrorist Plot" that'll have us all stripping off our skivies to get on flights.
And amazingly enough...plenty of people will do it.

[AZBlue]

82. How on earth do you know that??

Unless you have some inside information from the terrorists themselves, how do you know they got everyone? How do you know there isn't a cell inside the US planning the exact same thing?

Or, do you have a crystal ball? If so, please give me the PowerBall numbers for Saturday's drawing. Thanks!!

[C_U_L8R]

6. Doesn't mean it was either

the rethugs have offered no proof other than "suggestion"
and the world has gone and pooped it's pants

silly

[eallen]

61. Do you think everyone in law enforcement & intelligence bows to Bush?

One of the most important attributes of the US and of the UK -- still -- is that the agencies that investigate and enforce the laws are staffed almost wholy with professionals who serve throughout a span of administrations, and whose loyalty is to the law before it is to any president or prime minister. Certain managers and leaders get replaced when a new administration enters. But not the body of professionals who actually do the investigative and enforcement work.

The chief problem with the continual but tissue-thin conspiracy theories that are the bread and butter of both the fringe right and the fringe left is that they assume that the opposite is the case, that virtually every law enforcement investigator or officer switches allegiance to the conspiracy, or to the new administration. They also exhibit an extreme lack of understanding of how this work is done, and of how many professional would have to go along with most such conspiracies, to prevent their quick exposure.

[bananarepublican]

121. Yep! This administration must bear trhe burden of proof! n/t

[Beetwasher]

7. Yeah, Since The Bust Happened In Britain, I'm More Inclined To Believe

it's legit. That being said, it's utterly disgraceful how the admin. is handling it and taking responsibility for it (if I were the British, I'd be PISSED since it's THEIR bust and THEIR hard work) and using it politically (yeah, yeah, whatta surprise, I know).

And while the plot may be real, the timing of the announcement and when it happened is certainly questionable. It wouldn't surprise me if the bust happened days/weeks ago and they announced it when convenient.

[tenshi816]

65. Certainly some of it happened yesterday

because the BBC was interviewing some of the suspects' neighbours earlier today who saw the police battering down doors last night.

[maddezmom]

10. good point

My only problem is the timing. Not because of Lamont and other items that have been mentioned. But because if they knew about it, where the hell was the plan?

[bowens43]

12. Just because there was an old plot doesn't mean this was real.

I'm sorry the timing is suspect. The day after a major defeat for the war mongers? Bush knew it about for days yet did nothing to increase security at airports until AFTER the supposed suspects were in custody?

My moneys on "bullshit scare tactic" and I expect to see bullshit scare tactics occurring a regular basis from now until November.

[The Straight Story]

38. As I mentioned on another thread - why not announce before election?

That would have helped lieberman. And if (as he did) lieberman lost no one would care as it would have made 5 min of coverage while we were covering the terror plot.

[buff2]

51. That's exactly right.......

whip the American people into a fear frenzy so the little mental midget and his thugs can "keep us safe" while America burns. So close to the Nov. elections.......we all KNEW something would come up soon,we just didn't know it would be THIS soon. I'll bet the bush bastards are plotting for something really BIG and MAJOR to take place around mid October so the brain dead will vote for the repukes instead of the Dems.This has been too much of a pattern for this to be real. I don't buy it for one second.Seems ironic that every single time Chimpy goes to Crawford on his "vacation" a threat pops up. How phucking convenient. :argh: (I don't trust Blair,either. He and chimpy are joined at the hip)

[JAYJDF]

13. Then why did the feds know about this for days and do nothing

until now? Everything is on schedule.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. I still don't trust them

Sorry, like the little boy who cried wolf, they have cried 'terra alert' a few times too many.

[pdxmom]

15. What is so disturbing is that trust in this government has disintegrated

to the point that we even have to discuss whether it might be true or not. I would rather have trust in the fact that my government has this country's best interests at heart, as opposed to their own personal agenda. If it's a true threat, then our time is better spent handling the threat than having to first figure out if it's real or a political move.

[catnhatnh]

16. On this one I'm ambivelent....

...You're correct-it COULD be Bojinka redux, But at the same time it IS mighty convenient for both Bush and Blair whom, I expect, know something about psy-ops and false flag operations...Hmm, wheels within wheels-think I'll withold judgement on this one for a while...no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should....

[napi21]

17. I agree with you, there are several parts of this story that ring true.

The problem is, this Admin. has cried wolf sooo often in the past, none of us trust them on ANYTHING! Unfortunately, that old story about the little kid who cried wolf too often when it wasn't true, when it WAS, no one paid any attention to him, really fits this situation now!

All the raised "color alerts" during the 2004 Campaign that somehow magically disappeared after the election.

All the lies revealed through the 9/11 hearings.

All the panics and shutdowns in NY that all turned out to be false alarms.

At some point, people just don't believe ANYTHING you say!!!

[Norquist Nemesis]

18. I don't think it's bogus

I just think that they're maximizing the opportunity to scare people more. "Only WE can keep you safe!" It's not necessary to have non-stop coverage of it. On and on and over and over, the same information. BOO!

[The Magistrate]

19. Indeed, Sir

There are certainly people out there who want to do harm to the West. Viewed from certain angles, it is odd how fashions change. Decades ago, it was the fashion on the left to forthrightly acknowledge and support the armed resistance of third world peoples to neo-colonialism and other exploitations. Anyone who suggested the C.I.A. was cobbling together the resistance groups to have an excuse for invasion or for some domestic purpose would have been laughed out of the room if not physically assaulted. Nowadays, it seems there is a new fashion subscribed to by some, in which it is held that whatever the degree of grievance that exists among third word peoples, they never make any attempt to vindicate themselves by violence, or indeed, are incapable of doing so, and that every action of resistance that seems to be conducted by them is, in fact, contrived by some U.S. agency or other.

[Jacobin]

76. Very true

There is an odd disconnect about it all. Clearly, we know that our foreign policy choices, particularly in the past six years, have enraged many in the muslim world. Why some people believe that it is not possible that they would want to strike back is baffling to me.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Show me some evidence

that this new 'group' is real?

Second, if they've known about this for a few weeks already, then the timing deserves to be questioned. It is apparent that the US and Brits coordinate with each other down to when the Poodle and W take their vacations. Supposedly, both Bush and Blair knew about this and discussed it last week. Bush probably asked for the Brits to hold up until after the Tues Primary. What's a couple of days for an old friend.

[WilliamPitt]

23. Show me some evidence it isn't

[DoYouEverWonder]

32. You sound like Rummie?

You want me to prove an unknown, known, unknown?

My only proof is that all the other 'scares' have been bogus. Considering the information available so far, I see nothing that indicates that this 'scare' is any different.


Code Orange: Is it based on an Internet Hoax?

Dec-23-03

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/DoYouEverWonder/1

[WilliamPitt]

45. That's exactly what you asked me to do

Prove they exist?

Well, I do think this plot was real, so there you go. This plot is based on one put together by a true terror expert more than ten years ago, which further convinces me it is the real deal.

I don't blame you for doubting.

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. How can we even start to decide

if this is real or not if there is almost no evidence?

I'm not asking you to actually materialize flesh and bones. I'm asking what evidence have we been presented to even start to make any decision? Very little. So far we have 21 people + or - a few. They might all be British citizens, hence the morphing from possible al Qaeda group to al Qaeda-like group? And there's some connection to the South Asian community. Wow, I'm overwhelmed with information. How many days until the story changes completely and it turns out to be a bunch of Boy Scouts getting ready for a camping trip?

[The Stranger]

57. Whoever is calling the alerts, is the one that needs to show evidence.

It does not fall upon those questioning the calling of alerts to disprove the alert. Logically, if they want to call the alerts, provide evidence for a reason to be alerted.

[Ghost Dog]

59. Well, room to question the TIMING based on these quotes?

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1163182006
Prime Minister Tony Blair is on holiday in the Caribbean, but Downing Street said the police operation was undertaken with his full support and he had been "in constant touch".

A spokesman for Number 10 added that Mr Blair had briefed US President George Bush on the situation during the night. It is believed the covert investigation has been going on for several months and it is understood that officers made the arrests overnight not because they feared an attack was likely to happen today but for other intelligence reasons which meant they had to act quickly.

Mr Reid said: "At 2am this morning the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre raised the UK threat state to its highest level - critical."

He added: "This is a precautionary measure. We are doing everything possible to disrupt any further terrorist activity." Mr Stephenson told a press conference that the major investigation into the plot was ongoing.

"We have been very successful in arresting those we were targeting. This is a lengthy investigation and no doubt there will be further developments.

"This is an operation that's been going on for some considerable time and we moved in because we thought it was the right thing to do in terms of reducing and minimising crime to the public."

/...

Now, for sure, we have no evidence available to us on the basis of which to decide whether:

a). The 'plot' is/was for real (and was not being closely monitored by Intelligence Services);
b). The 'plot' was for real (and was being closely monitored by Intelligence Services);
c). The 'plot' was more-or-less for real and was in fact an Intelligence Services 'Sting' operation;
d). The 'plot' was an Intelligence Services plot;
e)...

But, the above from the Edinburgh Evening News (Scotsman) and this earlier, first thing this morning out of OZ from Sky News vía Adelaide:

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20081563-5005962,00.html
"Sky said the Metropolitan Police arrests were the culmination of a big covert counter-terrorist operation lasting several months.

"It followed a pre-planned intelligence led operation by the Met's anti-terrorist branch and security service."

- without need to mention all the recent surrounding, related history and current events - especially what's going down (and likely planned to escalate) in the Middle East, and possibly in relation to your US November elections - the whole neocon play - leaves room for a degree of (hopefully) healthy scepticism, sorry, skepticism, wouldn't you say?

Above all: WHY RIGHT NOW?

(edit to add emphasis and some spelling).

[Ghost Dog]

90. I should add, the further possibility:

(further down the list, g). maybe:

g). The 'plot' was a complete PR job, behind which there is no real substance whatsoever (but plenty of political substance, that, yes).

To quote from here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2448326#2448380

SOS (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-10-06 04:19 PM
15. Stark reminder

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

-Joseph Goebbels
Nazi Minister of Propaganda

Thanks for that, SOS. And yes, as a 'leftist', I have read 'Mein Kampf' - In Spanish ('Mi Lucha'). My girlfriends' people saved a copy (amongst a collection of other seminal books) after their civil war.

[Xenotime]

24. Lie once you can't be trusted...

As they are hugging you, they will shoot your family.

[htuttle]

27. Fool me once...

[datasuspect]

40. you don't get fooled agin

[htuttle]

25. At this point, I'm going to need a little more proof...

...than 'somebody said these guys might be planning something someday."

Did they find any bomb-making materials? A few guns? A knife? How about a pointed stick?

Nope. Nothing like that has been reported yet. Perhaps it will come out later, or maybe not.

I don't doubt that there are real terrorists out there. But there have been so many hoaxes, I need a little more proof of intent than 'we think they had intent' -- ESPECIALLY when they so blatantly try to make political hay with it right off the bat.

[sistersofmercy]

29. Thank You! Reason is also a good thing.

Just because our government is full of incompetent thugs it doesn't mean terrorists and terrorist threats aren't real.
IIRC there is a powder kept in chemistry labs that in small amounts is highly reactive with a common liquid. I remember reading about an accident in a chem lab a couple of years ago. I can't remember what the substance is. Of course this is just conjecture but perhaps they're not releasing all the info for a reason, especially if it is a powder and a liquid and not two liquids.

[sistersofmercy]

42. OOPS! Supposed to be, Reason is always a good thing.

Who would have believed 9/11 was possible? Most people would have never thought about it because they weren't paying attention. But look at the history starting with the PLO in the early seventies and the oozies in front of cathedrals in the eighties, the attacks on the military only got them so far it was threatened for a long time before it happened. Quaddafi (sp?) in the eighties was spouting off about terrorist activity on American soil.

[Iwasthere]

31. The fact that we are discussing whether it is real or or not...

tells the whole story..

Sick and tired of being takin for a ride

[underpants]

33. I agree but I still see them totally manipulating this for political gain

They are scum and we need to keep reminding people of it.

[WilliamPitt]

36. Absolutely

What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?

Still doesn't make this fake.

[Neverarepublican]

34. The basic story is probably true. But

I think that when the Bushies got wind of this they overexaggerated the threat to their advantage.
Whatever happened to Miami thing? You don't hear much anymore on it.

[mike_c]

37. well, the Bojinka plan is out there now....

It's part of the landscape. The question is, do we fold up our tents and live in fear forever, or do we accept that threat as part of the cost of having a free and open society? The Bush and Blair gov't have clearly chosen the former, but I think they will fail. First, people are ingenious enough to circumvent any "security measures" eventually, so trying to achieve safety through security is doomed to failure, and in the interim the attempt destroys the very society we're trying to protect. Second, directing their efforts toward locking down America and the UK prevents them from addressing the real problem-- foreign policy that inspires attacks against us in the first place.

It's one thing to acknowledge that terrorists really are out there, and quite another to believe that the world is suddenly overrun with slavering madmen bent on destroying freedom. That's the impression the gov't and the media is trying to foster and it really is a distraction from the real conflict, IMO. The real conflict is between American foreign policy and much of the rest of the world.

[milkyway]

39. "An' you know what they said? Well, some of it was true!"--London Calling,

by The Clash
http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/London-Calling-l...

Just because the Bush admin are evil scum that will use any means necessary to carry out their plans for never-ending war, it does not mean there are no jihadists trying to kill you.

I posted this earlier today on another thread. That line from The Clash (or, as they were commonly known, The Fuckin' Clash) has always stuck with me. Appropriate today that the song title was "London Calling."

[Imagevision]

43. it sounds enough like Bojinka, I'll give you that much

[IChing]

44. Real or Not doesn't really matter it will still be use to take away

our constitutional rights and our freedoms

[bigtree]

46. yup

folks should be listening to what our Arab and Muslim friends are saying. They are not looking at this conflict as mere victims. There is a real sentiment that a battle has begun for some permanent solution to their struggle against Israel. I'm more inclined to predict a long hard crawl, in peace or war, but there's not much of an embrace by them of any course which would end in their dominance, politically or otherwise.

So, I would say, with sadness, that I believe we will see many attempted reprisals, couched in some nationalistic defense or some faction's assertion of their own liberty from whoever is oppressing them. It has to come out somewhere. Our leaders seem more concerned with victories than with reconciliation. It portends for more unrest, more recriminations, and, unfortunately, more attempted attacks by groups and individuals who believe they can influence events with the voice of their violence.

I do maintain an abhorrence to any and all violence outside of immediate and necessary defense. I hope and pray that the principals in this and other conflicts are able to restrain their followers from such senseless reprisals. Let us hope together (and pray) that there will be an enlightenment that doesn't come about with anyone's 'defeat'. Let us hope together that we will all come to an understanding that we all share the same earth and the same sky for a reason. I believe we are intended to live in peace together, despite the manipulations of those who hunger for greed and power who intend to lead us. May our creator have mercy on us for our inability to understand and embrace our commonality, and for our insistence that we should undo this wonderful creation; life.

[Bumblebee]

47. I have little doubt it's true -- I also have little doubt that Bush and Co

will try to milk it for all it's worth and the congress will try to pass more draconian measures. It will also further fire up the building fences on borders groups. If Democrats had the backbone and the smarts they would easily turn it against Bush by posing real questions to which the answer should be obvious. Are we more loved/respected in the world after 9/11 when so much sympathy and compassion was expressed towards us from every corner of the world? If not, why? If we are more hated as a result of stupid and irresponsible policies and rhetoric does it make us safer or less safe? Whose fault is that? If we had used even a small amount of money we have wasted for no good reason on Iraq to strengthen the procedures at airports by investing in sophisticated technology and hiring competent people would that have made us safer or not? What about our seaports? Should we reelect the Republicans because Osama is still at large and capable of plotting whatever he wants to plot and we are loathed all over the world and more vulnerable and insecure than ever? Lamont would say all that -- and has said that already. Reid sort of issued a statement along these lines this morning -- but will they become vocal and truly counterattack and throw all these valid, legitimate and actually impossible to argue against rationally accusations where these accusations belong instead of whimpering out because the party which has royally screwed it all up will say that the Dems are soft on security? As Condi likes to say, this is a challenge and an opportunity...

PS And while I have no doubt that Osama wants to keep Bush in power because it's so great for his recruitment, I think his effect on the 2004 election has been largely exaggerated, esp. if one believes, like I do, that the election was rigged in Ohio.

[ComerPerro]

48. Real or not, the only reason its news at all

is because Bush was too incompetent to stop 9/11.

[lostnotforgotten]

50. Assume The Plot Was Real - Plot Foiled - Why Publicize Now?

Answer!

Bush enabler Lieberman - defeated!

Bush poll numbers in the toilet!

BP oil pipeline closure raising pump prices!

Everything is designed to distract the American public.

[SammyWinstonJack]

58. So true! nt

[tenshi816]

68. I honestly don't think anyone in Britain

was thinking about America when this news broke, not the British media or people who live in Britain. Strange as some of you might find it, we in the UK really don't wake up every morning thinking "I wonder how <fill in whatever UK incident here> is going to affect the Americans". Today's events happened in the UK - no one here asked the American media or American politicians to put their two pennies in. It's nothing to do with Joe-fucking-Lieberman.

Edited for grammar

Edited again to add that I'm amazed that something that happened in Britain, and has affected mostly British people, has now been somehow turned into an American issue. Once again, it's all about America. Un-bloody-believable.

[lostnotforgotten]

98. It's Because We Know Blair Is Bush's Lap Dog

If Rove told Bush to hold the information so the propaganda could be coordinated, Tony would oblige.

[tenshi816]

106. Tony Blair doesn't have the final say in everything.

He's the Prime Minister, not the President. There's a big difference. He's hanging on to his job by a thread and could be removed by his party in a second if he goes too far out on a limb - if you don't believe me, look at what happened to Margaret Thatcher. There are people gunning for Blair and he can only take his lapdog act so far before his own people take him down and he finds himself sitting on the back benches in Parliament again.

Since this was a terrorist plot by British nationals uncovered by British intelligence, I don't see where American propaganda fits in anyway, and in any event it's not being reported on our news. The British coverage is about what happened here in Britain, because that's what's important here in Britain. It happened here, to us, and I wish Americans would stop trying to turn it around and make it all about them as if the only important thing is what's going on in the United States, because it isn't.

I do find it insulting that you appear to believe the British people are stupid, and that you also appear to believe you know more about what's going on in the UK than the people who live there.

[lostnotforgotten]

109. We Also KNow That Bush Was "Briefed" Over The Weekend

That suggests collusion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1872373

[tenshi816]

115. Collusion in what, exactly?

So Bush knew about the arrests. So what? It doesn't mean he was in charge of what was happening in the UK. Despite what you might think, Britain still isn't the 51st state.

[lostnotforgotten]

118. Collusion Over The Release Of The Information

That is a timing of the news to suit the Republicons in this country.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Note that is a question not an insult!

Mods: note the prior exchange before anyone insinuates a personal attack in this discussion.

[tenshi816]

122. Of course I'm not obtuse.

I just don't see conspiracies in everything that happens. Seeing government conspiracies in everything is just as wrong as refusing to see them in anything.

I'll continue to watch the news as it plays out here in the UK, because there's no point in watching American news. You're only getting a fraction of the information we get anyway.

[lostnotforgotten]

127. Proof Positive Of My Original Points

Source: U.S., U.K. at odds over timing of arrests
British wanted to continue surveillance on terror suspects, official says

By Aram Roston, Lisa Myers, and the NBC News Investigative Unit
NBC News
Updated: 8:13 p.m. ET Aug 12, 2006

LONDON - NBC News has learned that U.S. and British authorities had a significant disagreement over when to move in on the suspects in the alleged plot to bring down trans-Atlantic airliners bound for the United States.

A senior British official knowledgeable about the case said British police were planning to continue to run surveillance for at least another week to try to obtain more evidence, while American officials pressured them to arrest the suspects sooner. The official spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the case.

In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.

Snip ......

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452

'nuff said!

[CJCRANE]

131. I agree with you.

I'm in Britain and it's pretty obvious that Blair bends to B*sh's will on just about everything.

Blair is on 67% disapproval, most of the Labour Party don't like him, and even some of his own cabinet diagree with him.

But he's in charge and it's obvious he has cronies in the security services to do his bidding for him and provide the required bit of "intelligence" when convenient (or pressured by the US to do so).

(That's not to say there wasn't some kind of plot going on but the political interference in these matters is obvious).

[LSK]

53. so Project Bojinka would be known by the Govt too

- one of the loony nutcases.

:tinfoilhat:

[Throd]

54. It can be both at once

That the plot is real, and that the administration is exploiting it, are not mutually exclusive.

[Imagevision]

55. With this adminstration it doesn't mean this isn't real either

[leesa]

56. It's possible, but given the track record, highly unlikely.

[electron_blue]

64. At this point, it doesn't matter. Whether real or not, it advances Bush's

ability to control through terror. If he (or his cronies) weren't behind it and were totally "innocent" of it, he will still use it to take even more powers.

[shadowknows69]

66. I agree

with as much hate as we have sown I'm sure there are people lining up to mess with us eventually. It's the ones they won't catch, or probably even try to, that should frighten us.

[texas1928]

67. I would not doubt that it might be real...

But given what has been going on, and Bush's* failing poll numbers. It just seems all to convenient.

[Atman]

69. Will, I don't think The Plot was fake, either.

No doubt, in fact, that they did break up something. The questions I have, though, are these:

If they broke this up in the planning stage, even in the advanced planning stage, then it wasn't operational. So why all the panic at the airports? It doesn't make sense. It tells me that either someone actually got passed them and they're trying to cover their asses, or they're just playing it up for effect. But I can't see why you disrupt the stock market, the tourism industry, air travel, reek untold havoc on international business and commerce just because you found a plan.

It doesn't make sense unless the plan was actually in process. So, which one are the lying about? They're lying about SOMETHING here.

Which brings me to the timing. They've already said they've known about this for some time. Bush and Blair probably even discussed it while he was here. But again, if it was only a plan why did they not at least attempt to avoid the obvious skepticism which would arise by another terror alert just as Bush gets bad news? I don't see what the urgency is/was if this was only a pre-operational plan.

Again, unless this disaster was much, much closer to being carried out than they're letting on.

[kentuck]

70. Very true Atman...

It sounds like it was in the planning stage at best. So why all the panic? Unless there is a lot they are not telling??

[bigtree]

77. this whole reaction makes them look so inept . . . I wonder,

would they bring all of this on just to wag the dog? I think they're spooked about something.

The problem with these 'agencies' that they've built up after 9-11 at the head of all of this is their political appointees who run them. Thes clowns aren't seasoned enough to recognize when to react or when to sit tight. THEY run scared because they know they're incompetent. They know our 'defenses' against any real threat are crap shoots which depend on their sorry asses. All of their responses after 9-11 have been paranoid, reflexive slapfights with eyes closed.

All of that, though, doesn't mean someone's not out to get us.

[Imagevision]

95. But if you wanted to get rid of iraq civil war, middle east probs

even the bad news for GOP november elections, This terror in the sky bit would get Bush's problems off the front page.

(If they broke this up in the planning stage, even in the advanced planning stage, then it wasn't operational. So why all the panic at the airports? It doesn't make sense.)

[OregonBlue]

71. Isn't it sad that we have to question whether they are lying to us

about something as important as this?

[Midlodemocrat]

73. I think there is a better than average chance it was real.

What I despise about this terra, terra, terra stuff is the fear factor aspect. I know they are mostly crying wolf, but then 9/11 comes to mind and I lost two friends that day.

When my husband gets on a plane, I will worry. When my brothers get on a plane, I will worry.

I'm so sick of worrying about things over which I have no control. It seems to me that a little diplomacy would go a long way.

Maybe I'm naive, but I still believe words trump war.

[H2O Man]

74. I agree.

The issue of it being true or not is distinct from the administration's use of it.

I believe the name has to do with the percussion. When the fellow with the shoe bomb attempted to light it from his seat, a number of people asked why he didn't simply go to the rest room. The answer was the intended percussion.

[wisteria]

80. It may be real, but the outcry should be that we are not any safer

after more than four years of war and death, and in fact, we are not fighting them over their so they don't attack us over here. We should be demanding another direction- not the same old course.

[AZBlue]

81. Excellent point. It's stupid to doubt the existence of plots like this.

It's also stupid not to doubt the misuse and spin of the Bush administration.

I agree - it does sound like Loud Bang. It's a favorite of al qaeda. There are many who say that Loud Bang was also the genesis of 9/11 - that Yousef took it to Bin Laden after it was foiled and they came up with the 9/11 plot.

Doubting the existence of plans such as this is stupid and cowardly in my own opinion. Yes, it's a scary thing to face reality, but what would be even scarier is if we just laughed it all off as a product of the Bush admin.

[marions ghost]

113. nobody's laughing

nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(
nobody's laughing:(

[Generator]

84. I want to know

how Du'ers will argue over and over again (and I agree with them) that Bush's policies, Israel's policies, war in Iraq most defintely are creating MORE terrorists but believe they will never attempt to harm us.

When are all these new terrorists supposed to strike? When a Dem is in office-then you will believe there is a real threat? Much of the shit they've talked about in previous "terror alerts" of the last few years WAS bogus. It was obvious. It was political. Countdown did a good job covering that. But someday it's going to come home again. And I am scared. Because I have no faith in this govermnent to do anything.

[FearofFutility]

87. I agree with you and the OP

We are more hated than ever due to our actions. It's only a matter of time. Healthy skepticism is, well, healthy, but some of the knee jerk reactions are predictable and frustrating.

[JerseygirlCT]

85. I tend to agree. They'll USE it for every bit of terra they

can squeeze from it, though.

[mogster]

86. There may still be an attack, if it's real or not

They do warn about that, don't they?

Anyho - they will jump at the possibilities for exploiting this terror-alert like they always have before, but this may not be enough pretext for more wars (Iran), there has to be a more visible threat.
I exposed a somewhat similar plot here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1874132&mesg_id=1876355

That shows:
- it is possible to plant controversial materials at suspect location even with the UK police involved
- the MIHOP use of terror as weapon of information, for political purposes
- a huge number of arrests, and even a trial made possible, even though the 'terror-weapon' in question turned out to be illusory

I only have Norw. links but have translated some of the text. Brit DU'ers feel free to add info ;-)

[mogster]

93. Danish paper says arrests were made in Pakistan

And that the operation to take out the plot was a cooperation between Paktistani, US and UK intelligence services
(DA):
http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=470184

[screembloodymurder]

88. I don't doubt it's authentic.

Here's how I think we should respond.

First, we must resist any attempt to limit our freedoms.
Second, we must point out that if "they hate us for our freedoms" than anyone who suggests that we surrender our freedoms is working with the terrorists.
Third, we need to deal with the real issue of why they hate the U.S.

[DoYouEverWonder]

89. CNN - Plane plot involved sports drink, MP3 player, official says

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I rest my case.

[mogster]

91. Yes

From the BBC about 'liquid explosives' - now a new keyword:

"Specialist knowledge or equipment needed to make?

If someone wanted to obtain a solid high explosive in a liquid form, it would not be difficult for a trained chemical technologist.

But if someone was using a backyard laboratory it is more likely they would go for the two component approach.

Not a lot of experience is needed, the principles are quite simple but it would be a hazardous process of trial and error.

I would not want to be messing about these things. It has been known for schoolboys to go home and attempt this and blow their house up."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4780391.stm?ls
'It has been known for schoolboys to go home and attempt this'
In Norway, an article said it could be made from ordinary household stuff.

What if the household stuff wasn't even mixed together, just placed around in various cupboards? :shrug:

Note the Ipod and Gatorade, very modern stuff, like. Banned now.

An Norwegian officer in the Defense ammunition and EOD school, Even Mølmshaug, says:

"- I know a couple of elements that may be usable, these are nitrogen-rich elements, liquid methylnitrate you might get an explosion out of.
He mentions slurry as a way of blowing up dikes, but that is a thick porridge.
He don't know a sure way of making a thin liquid with enough explosive power to destroy an airplane.
- If you mix explosives in alcohol, you need a booster to set it off. A cell phone or an iPod wouldn't be enough."
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/08/10/473563.html

[WilliamPitt]

94. You're a couple of hours behind

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1877630

[Ghost Dog]

96. (Cough, Cough).

(Nice to listen to some girls explaining how they sometimes like to be thoroughly explored, though).
- not sure if :-) or :-(

:silly:

[DeepModem Mom]

99. Thank you, Will. We look like fools here. nt

[Catfight]

100. Both Tony Blair and Bush are in cahoots. This is just another attempt

to get the base back under their control. We won't hear anymore about this gang of 21 or whatever. Three or so will be thrown away in gitmo never to be heard of again with no access to a lawyer and never charged. It's the MO of America now. Both Blair and Bush have low approval...or now it should just be called what it is, disapproval rates that this helps justify both of their insane views that all the oil in the world is theirs for the killing. This administration is pathetic and it's going to get so much worse. Economic collapse is on the way for America...just wait... And diebold will keep repugs in control for many years to come, hell, they really only need to gain control of congress this time around and watch the circus really begin.

[tenshi816]

107. What makes you think

that the "gang of 21" (or however many they turn out to be) will be handed over to the United States? I would think that Britain has jurisdiction in this case and there's no reason to think they won't be tried in Britain, assuming it ever comes to a trial.

People seem to forget that Britain is not a territory of the United States, no matter how much you want to believe it is.

[MoseyWalker]

101. It doesn't mean it wasn't, either

I have read so many conflicting "reasons" and "thoughts" and "ideas" over the past two hours that it leaves me to believe it's another shit story.

Remember when the news didn't have to make up stories? When they followed the information and reported on it? Remember when they didn't put out 29 different possibilities for a non event?

Let's remember. No one was killed, and, importantly, the only information out there looks and smells like just more psyops.

The past 6 years have taught me something. I no longer play their game.

[DisgustedTX]

102. Like the ROVE INDICTMENT?

:puke:

[TornadoTN]

114. Bravo!

Well played, and quite accurate I might add.

[Malikshah]

103. True--but the administrations (*s and Poodles) are neck deep

responsible.

1) They've done jackshit to deal w/ terrorism except to
2) Create more support for it worldwide.

I blame the terrorists AND this regime equally for ignoring the sanctity of human life. They hypocrisy of the regimes makes it all the more vile.

[jpkenny]

104. Already being reported that a Brit infiltrated the group...hmmmm

is this going to be like the last entrapment terrorist plot where everyone had to be released?

[OneBlueSky]

105. true . . . but it also doesn't mean it WAS real . . .

the problem is that, given BushCo's record for truthfulness, everything and anything they say is immediately and automatically suspect -- and assumed to be untrue . . .

they have less credibility than OJ's search for the real killers . . .

[radfringe]

108. CRIED WOLF TOO MANY TIMES

While I do not discount the high probability of a REAL terror threat or attack - I do listen to these "alerts" with a healthy dose of skepticism.

We've had many terror alerts - and they eerily coincide with certain "events"

- the main event would be news blather about bush's poll numbers dropping

- second to that is the "election year" syndrome, the number of terror alerts were higher in 2002 and 2004 than in non-election years - and usually "popped up" between august-november

forgive the tin-foil hat - Between late Tuesday night and Wednesday evening the news was focused on Lieberman and what it means for the nov (s)elections. blatherheads were speculating on the "anti-war" candidates VS "pro-war" candidates, the anti-incumbancy mood in the country. Congressional approval polls are in the toilet - especially regarding repubs. We've also seen the repub playbook wanting to focus on TERROR-TERROR-TERROR, and bush is cutting his vacation short for fund raising appearances for repub candidates -- all this indicates an element of panic among the republicans.

wednesday afternoon (8/9) my partner, sister and I were discussing the Leiberman loss. I told them that I wouldn't be surprised if we had a MAJOR terror alert/attack within the next couple of months. They pooh-poohed the notion. Yesterday they admitted I was right.

meanwhile - here's a chart it only goes up to september 2004,

[mtnsnake]

110. Maybe it was real but I dont trust a single thing this administration says

Bush would like us to believe that global warming is an imaginary plot of the Democrats.

[Vinca]

111. I would be more willing to buy into the story if Republican

politicians weren't sitting in a circle salivating.

[mwb970]

112. What about the "fighting them over there" bit?

We've heard it so much we're sick of it: We're fighting the terrorists over there (in Iraq) so we don't have to fight them here (in the US and UK).

Given this, how were these terrorists able to hatch this plot right in the UK itself? Did they fail to understand that having the entire US military in Iraq protects us from attacks originating elsewhere in the world? How then were they almost able to attack us "over here"? Also, in what specific way did Bush's War in Iraq (the front line in the war on terror) lead to the capture of the conspirators?

The Republican line is by this point essentially pure gibberish. Only the stupid and gullible, watching only Fox News, listening only to Rush and Hannity, are still able to swallow this load of bull.

[DemExpat]

116. Not ONE news source here is casting doubt on the credibility of this story

and all of The Netherlands is NOT part of the conspiracy!

But I do understand the suspicion - when I watch Dutch or Belgian news on this thwarted attack, the reasonableness of the reporting is palatable and believable.

As soon as they show US officials and Bush commenting on it, my alarm bells start ringing!

It is HOW this is all presented, manipulated and (ab)used in the US that causes extra alarm, suspicion, and disbelief.

INMO.

DemEx

[kymar57]

117. Just to keep this thread alive. I agree.

I don't see how anyone can doubt there are people out there who want to kill us for whatever reason, right or wrong. I have little doubt this was a real plot although the reaction seems to be a variation of closing the barn door after the cows have gotten out.

I am a little bit troubled by some posters that dismiss the idea that this plan was even possible. It implies the "Ayrabs" were incapable of possessing such an intricate knowledge of chemistry (or physics or whatever)to do this. I,however,have no idea at all of how,say electricity works, but I don't doubt there are people capable of pulling it off.

The thing that troubles me most in this newest episode of "all terra all the time"is the idea that this somehow justifies the trashing of the Constitution. If I've got my facts straight this thing started with the detention of a Brit national in Pakistan who apparently was so overcome with remorse or some-such he gave up the whole plan to the police. From there it went to the UK and the subsequent arrests.

Now I'm hearing nonstop from the bushites and other rw's how this justifies the illegal wiretapping etc they are engaged in. WTF does one have to do with the other.

[eridani]

120. Amateur chemistry is always crappy chemistry, "Ayrabs" or otherwise

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1883785&mesg_id=1883785

The odds of a plan like this concocted by anybody actually going 100% as anticipated are minuscule. Of course had they lucked out and managed to bring even one out of 12 planes down, that would have been very bad by itself, but so was Lockerbie. As you'll recall, they didn't ban all cargo hold luggage after that tragedy.

[InaneAnanity]

123. 9/11 wasn't real

At least, real in the sense the administratiojn portrayed it as.

Why should I believe anything they say??

[bridge_to_nowhere]

124. exactly how I feel!

It is their fault that I do not believe a word they say.

[U4ikLefty]

125. Is it as real as the Rove indictment??? n/t

[bridgit]

126. i flat-out believe that certain components were as serious as a heart...

attack no doubt, other elements seemed less so at least to me; i'm prepared to take it on face value that it was, get the hell rid of this current batch of republican usurpers, continue to be smart & vigilant, progressive & forward thinking/planning about ALL these matters, and then see what happens

bush/cheney & the whole bunch of them have steeped the realm with lies so conclusively that we may never know what really needs to be done without them OUT of the way so we can see it for what it is...imo

[B Calm]

128. Even my republican co-workers think it was faked!

[warrior1]

129. Just because I hate these guys

doesn't mean they won't exploit it to their advantage yet again. And then do nothing to protect Americans in America.

[NNN0LHI]

130. Can you think of any other times when Bush's goons have told us the truth?

I am having a difficult time thinking of one.

The only time I can remember any truth coming from this administration has been in cases where they have lied and been caught red handed and then had to fess up.

Other than those few instances I can't think of one.

Don