ISLAMIC FASCISTS???

[BooScout]

Sweet god almighty he just insulted every person who practices Islam.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. But the terraists will use any means to destroy Amurka

[jaxx]

2. He's too damn dumb to know....my god will the man ever learn how

to do public speaking?

[sgxnk]

3. no, he didn't

any more than andrew sullivan insults every christian by using the term christian fascists/christofascists

there ARE islamic fascists

people who put murder contracts out for authors, in the name of islam

people who murder over cartoons

people who murder people over religious dissent

people who murder people for being jewish or christian

etc.

get real

they exist

[malaise]

8. Please define the word fascist

using an academic peer reviewed text.
Add.

[sgxnk]

14. i'll use a dictionary

fas·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.
often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control

[aquart]

40. Is Georgie's picture with it?

"Belligerent nationalism." Oh, gosh golly, who does that describe?

Does demonizing Muslims and arresting them in mass roundups count as racism?

Censorship......like in reading our email and listening to our phonecalls? Planting phony news stories?

Socioeconomic controls.....sending our jobs overseas, denying us healthcare, and giving all the taxcuts and wealth of the nation to the already insanely rich?

[CJCRANE]

42. except the people he's using it against

are terrorists who are generally private citizens in small cells not connected to and usually on the run from state power.

[Igel]

That does describe Hezbollah and Khamenei.

To be sure. And the Taliban, at one point.

So what you're saying is that if a group of Nazis don't actually have the power of the state behind them, they can't be described as fascists.

Interesting.

[malaise]

60. How does that describe Hizbollah

unless you're using an American or Israeli MSM interpretation. No one in Europe describes Hizbollah as a terrorist organization. It has long been a resistance movement that helped Lebanon get rid of the Israeli occupation of their country. It is heavily involved in Civil Society and social programmes. Hizbollah has elected members of Parliament in the Lebanese government. Not once has Hizbollah ever suggested that Lebanon be anything but the secular multi-religious society it has always been. There is absolutely no way Hizbollah canbe described as an Isamo-fascist organization although this stupid neocon concept has no meaning in any legitimate social science text.

[Julius Civitatus]

59. Who is the "dictator" of all Muslims?

While I do agree those Muslim extremists are dangerous, I don't think they fall in the category of "fascism". Call them something else, but they are not "fascists" in the traditional term of the word, even by your own dictionary definition.

Religious fanatics, fundamentalists, militants, terrorists, whatever. Fascists? Not really, unless you prefer to ignore what "fascist" means.

Now, the use of the term "islamo-fascism" (coined by right-wing bloggers) is a pathetic attempt to make this "war on terror" seem comparable to WWII. Notice how often they try to make Georgie's war into a WWII epic.

Words mean things.

[malaise]

61. Thanks for that

Religious fanatics, fundamentalists, militants, terrorists, whatever. Fascists? Not really, unless you prefer to ignore what "fascist" means.
Concepts and words have real meaning for rational people and the use of the word fascist is ludicrous in this context.

[sgxnk]

74. the dictator

to the islamofascists...

it is mohammed

or more precisely, their twisted interpretation of his teachings and words

considering that the mere depiction of his image is enough to send these thugs into a murderous frenzy...

of course, his representatives on earth (the ayatollahs etc.) act as a nice proxy dictator for the various legions

[Julius Civitatus]

80. Bullcrap. That's a pathetic excuse for an explanation

And the "dictator" of Italian Fascist was Jesus, according to your explanation? Come one now!

Please give it up. The term "Islamo-Fascist" is inaccurate and silly. A more accurate term is necessary.

[sgxnk]

83. um, no

because the italian fascists did not derive their zeal and their political ideology from their (interpretation of) jesus

the islamofascists DO derive their murderous zeal from their interpretation of the words of the prophet, and the religion that sees him as the great prophet. as do they derive inspiration from the ayatollahs etc. that twist the words (or alleged words) of mohammed to suit their murderous scumbag ends

so, your analogy is pathetic

try again

[Julius Civitatus]

99. Hmmm, yes

You have spent the entire day here trying to convince people that the term "fascism" applies to these terrorists. You even used definitions that outright denied your own assertions. You used pretzel logic to string incoherent and often contradicting explanations. No dude, "pathetic" really applies to your zealous attempt to justify this right-wing terminology.

They are religious fanatics, Islamic radicals, islamist fundamentalist, whatever, but they certainly are not "Fascist." As everyone else in this board has explain to you, "fascism" is a very clear and specific type of political movement.

It doesn't fly. You can try all you can, but your definition is incorrect.

[ktlyon]

101. I don't agree with your definition

because it leaves out an important component of fascism and that is the dictator controlling the industrial complex. At this time in history or the past I do not believe any Islamic country could be considered fascist

[AngryAmish]

76. the caliph?

[Julius Civitatus]

82. Please, name the dictator of all the muslim world

then you have fascism, as defined by the dictionary.

[AngryAmish]

86. Islamic Brotherhood

That is the organization that spawned Islamic Jihad, Al Quada and many other Sunni fundamentalist groups. Some are terrorists, many are not.

Anyway the philosophical underpinning of the organization is that the Islamic civilization was the greatest (and was the leading civilization on earth) until 1258 when the Mongols sacked Baghdad and killed the last Caliph who had real political power. After that the Caliphs were varying levels of pawns of secular rulers.

So Islamic Brotherhood and their ilk want to unify the Islamic world (and convert to Shia) and then name a Caliph. The fact that they have not done so yet is because they really don't have even a state to found the empire so naming a caliph at this point would be counterproductive (if someone declares themselves a Caliph or is nominated a Caliph in Egypt, for example, they would be in jail in short order and dead shortly thereafter.)

This is a long winded explanation that they may have a fascistic aspirations. Cheers!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sgxnk]

11. tell it to rushdie or van goethe

[CJCRANE]

10. OK they exist

but why does Bushco do billion dollar business deals with Saudi Arabia which is the primary islamic fundamentalist state?

[sgxnk]

18. ask them

im not bushco, nor do i support that policy

and that is relevant how?

[Zomby Woof]

13. You're referring to fundie extremists

Not fascists. And yes, they are real, but for Bush's purposes, they make GREAT bogeymen too. Very useful Goldbergs for his authoritarianism.

[sgxnk]

21. read a dictionary

they are not 'bogeyman'

they exist, and they are scum.

fas·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.
often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control

[BooScout]

26. And tell me how that applies to terrorist cells?

:shrug:

[sgxnk]

33. nice tangent

while not all islamofascists are in terrorist cells (certainly not those in countries where they operate in the open), there is nothing about belonging to a cell, that takes away from the fact of whether one is or isn't a fascist.

cells are constructs for carrying out terrorism. they are a tactical design, one that suntsu would be admiring of. cause they work

an islamofascist in a terrorist cell is just that.

being in a cell does not stop him from being an islamofascist
]

[BooScout]

39. Tangent???

You posted the definition....." marked by centralization of authority under a dictator".....now tell me how terrorist cells have a centralization of authority and just who this Dictator is running things.

All I did was follow question your line of thought........which come to think of it has not been well thought out at all.

[sgxnk]

52. terrorist cells

don't have a centralization of authority under a dictator, but so what

their overriding organization does. cells don't just spring up organically

they were/are designed as tactical structures within a fascist organization

but they are constructed to be isolated , for tactical purposes

if a group of italian fascists were told to get themselves to a nunnery, hole up, have no contact with mussolini, disguise themselves as nuns (real ugly nuns), and wait until a US military troupe went by, and then activate, strip off their habits, and destroy the soldiers, they would not have cease to be italian fascists merely because they were using a tactical device that isolated them from their leaders

again, that was not my point anyways

the point was that the OP claimed that ***using the term islamofascist insults ALL muslims***

that is patently false. using the term italian fascists does not insult all italians. it describes a common bond AMONG a group of fascists. it does NOT imply or necessitate that all italians are (were) fascists

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Aren't "cells" & "centralization" sort of contradictory?

I know less than you but more than someone who depends on the dictionary to understand complex concepts.

[The Magistrate]

58. Lenin Did Not Think So, Ma'am

A decentralized and fluid form of organization is quite compatible with centralization of aim and direction. In hostile environments, the former is necessary for execution of the latter.

The real question here is simple: are the jihadis totalitarians? The answer, on their record in areas where they have gained and wielded power, and on the evidence of their own statements, is yes, they are. They intend a theocratic order, where dissent ad disobedience is forbidden and rigorously punished when it occurs. Put bluntly, it amazes me there is any real debate over that.

[sgxnk]

72. there is no real debate

just silly sophists

great post btw

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sgxnk]

23. what about it?

this is relevant how?

i made a specific point. you bring up irrelevant tangents

he did NOT insult all muslims by using the term islamofascist any more than you would insult all italians by referring to "italian fascists" in 1945

[enuffs_enuffs]

16. People also exist to...

use fear to usurp rational thought.

create enemies to stoke those fears.

allow those enemies to "escape" b/c people in power need a boogey man.

say one thing, while doing another... and act incredulous when called on it... and label you a traitor or whatever label is getting the most fear mongering at the time to have the most effect.

they exist... get real sheeple...

[sgxnk]

25. again, relevant how?

the point is that islamofascists exist, and they are murderous scumbags

[CJCRANE]

31. they are

but they are enabled and facilitated by the neocons. The neocons don't give a f*ck about protecting americans.

ed: grammar

[sgxnk]

34. again, relavant how

i made the point that islamofascism was a valid term, and since you have no argument, you devolve into more tangents

i made a point, and you either agree or disagree, but your above point is an irrelevant tangent, but im glad you agree with my initial point, so that's good

[CJCRANE]

38. I disagree with the term -

it's a rightwing construct. "Islamic fundamentalism" is sufficient.

[sgxnk]

49. fine

i don't agree or disagree with a term based on who constructed it

i agree based on its semantic validity.

as far as i know, andrew sullivan invented, or at least popularized the term "christofascist"

so what?

it's a valid term

similarly, so is islamofascist

fwiw, that wasn't my point

the OP said that using that term insulted all muslims

clearly, that is false. similarly, using the term christofascist does not insult all christians, or italian fascists does not insult all italians

the first part of the term is descriptive and describes the "belonging" characteristic AMONG these fascists

italian fascists are fascists who common bond is that they are italian, etc.

[malaise]

63. You don't have a clue about the use and

misuse of the term fascist. islamo-fascist is a neocon construct with no meaning in political science. More than a few people on this thread have graduate degrees in political science. If you can't find a peer-reviewed use of this bogus concept, give it a rest.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jwirr]

51. I would guess that you can find murderous scum in all races and

countries. What is going on with *ss is hate propaganda to keep his base wired. And while he may not have insulted all people of the islam faith they may not all know he only meant a "few rotten apples".

[Dhalgren]

20. The term, then, is wrong. It would be "Muslim Fascists", like

Saddam and the Bathists are fascists and they are Muslims - so they are Muslim Fascists. Mussolini was a Christian Fascist. Using the term "Islam" in this context only shows that the person using the term doesn't understand the word. There isn't a thing "Islamic" to which the term "fascist" can be logically attached and have any meaning...

[sgxnk]

28. false, but nice sophistry

try looking up the meaning of the word "islam"

the term "islamofascist" is completely justified

so is christianfascist too.

the latter are just not murdering people over cartoons, killing women for adultery, calling for the extermination of all jews (well, a tiny minority are), carrying out fatwahs, blowing up the world trade center, etc.

[Dhalgren]

35. Here is Juan Cole's take on the issue.

And I will accept Dr. Cole as authority enough on matters of the Middle East and Islam, thanks.

"there are other problems with what Bush said. He contrasted "Islamic fascism" to "democracy," presumably a reference to the Lebanese Hizbullah.

This point is incorrect and offensive for many reasons.

It is a misuse of the word "Islamic." "Islamic" has to do with the ideals and achievements of the Muslims and the Muslim religion. Thus, we speak of Islamic art. We speak of Islamic ethics.

There can be Muslim fascists, just as there can be Christian fascists (and were, in Spain, Italy and Germany, and parts of Central and South America; the Spanish fascists and the Argentinian ones, e.g., were adopted by the United States government as close allies.)

But there cannot be "Islamic" fascists, because the Islamic religion enshrines values that are incompatible with fascism.

Fascism is not even a very good description of the ideology of most Muslim fundamentalists.

www.juancole.com

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. The paragraph that starts right after is worth repeating:

Fanboys of RW terminology -- read this and get it through your thick skulls:

Fascism is not even a very good description of the ideology of most Muslim fundamentalists. Most fascism in the Middle East has been secular in character, as with Saddam Hussein's Baath Party. Fascism involves extreme nationalism and most often racism. Muslim fundamentalist movements reject the nation-state as their primary loyalty and reject race as a basis for political action or social discrimination. Fascists exalt the state above individual rights or the rule of law. Muslim fundamentalists exalt Islamic law above the utilitarian interests of the state. Fascism exalts youth and a master race above the old and the "inferior" races. Muslim fundamentalists would never speak this way. Fascism glorifies "war as an end in itself and victory as the determinant of truth and worthiness." Muslim fundamentalists view holy war as a ritual with precise conditions and laws governing its conduct. It is not considered an end in itself.

[Clark2008]

54. That was beautiful and gives the most accurate definitions

I've ever seen.

I HATE the term "Islamic" when referring to people because it's incorrect. The people following Islam are Muslims. Any group of people following any type of Islam, no matter how perverted are MUSLIMS - they're not "Islamisists" or Islamic or Islamo-what-the-fuck-ever.

Great post.

Thank you!

[Clark2008]

55. That was beautiful and gives the most accurate definitions

I've ever seen.

I HATE the term "Islamic" when referring to people because it's incorrect. The people following Islam are Muslims. Any group of people following any type of Islam, no matter how perverted are MUSLIMS - they're not "Islamisists" or Islamic or Islamo-what-the-fuck-ever.

Great post.

Thank you!

[malaise]

65. Bingo n/t

[leftchick]

91. Thank you Dhalgren

I read this the other day after the chimp's pathetic pig ranch photo op with condi. He is such a dope. I am betting he went off script with that one and now he owns it.

[im10ashus]

You are too tranparent. Good luck to you. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

44. Webster's Dicitonary won't explain the whole complicated world.

Neither will the OED.

[CJCRANE]

48. christian fascists

wholeheartedly support a policy that has killed 100,000 civilians in Iraq and led to 20,000 American casualties (including injuries). They are more dangerous than islamic extremists in my opinion.

[sgxnk]

57. again, relevant how

and of course absurd since the "neocons" are not a christian organization

they are disproportionately jewish, fwiw, although there are plenty of christians, jews, atheists, and agnostics among their ranks. also, it is false that the war in iraq was a policy wholeheartedly supported only by neocons, since tons of people who are clearly not neocons support(ed) it, to include elie weisel, ed koch, rudy guiliani, etc.

the issue wasn't who was or wasn't more dangerous

the issue was that the OP CLAIMED that the term islamofascist INSULTED ALL MUSLIMS

which is as patently false as the claim that "italian fascists' insults all italians

[MadHound]

62. I would suggest that you stroll over to FR

Islamofascist is a deragotory term originating in the RW blogs, a term that was and is being used to describe ALL of those belonging to the Islamic faith. It was concieved as an insult, and it is used as an insult. The fact that you are continuing to shamelessly use it says a lot about you, and none of it is good.

And if you actually would research the geo-political state of the ME, you would see that it is also an inaccurate term. Many of the ME states are secular(like Iraq was until we invaded and occupied it) Those with totalitarian governments are pretty secular in nature, think Libya. Those that are indeed religious totalitarian states are best described by another term, theocracies.

Therefore the term you use is both inaccurate and insulting, as is the term christofascist. I would suggest that you stop using it, otherwise it reflects on you badly.

[sgxnk]

68. i dont care

i don't care WHERE the term derived

and often, insulting terms are the best terms

i could call them scumbags. that would also be insulting

i would say the same of ANY fascists.

there are all sorts of tangential issues

the semantical validity of the term is completely irrelevant as to whether the term AS CLAIMED BY THE OP -- insulted all muslims

i claim it does not, any more than "columbine killers" insults every student who went to columbine, ro the andrew sullivan'ism "christofascists" insults ALL christians

there is no right not to be offended, and often insults are warranted. as to scumbags who murder people over cartoons, who threaten western civilization, who subjugate women (and mutilate their bodies), who murder people over their religious beliefs - they deserve insults

and i don't care who derives a term. that's irrelevant as to its utility

it is also a frequent meme i see here that any departure from imposed orthodoxy automatically means one is some kind of rw shill

spare me. i see this all the time in the israel/hezbollah threads as well

it gets old

try discussing ideas, and not throwing around tired guilt by association claims

fwiw, i have never been to FR. i have been to numerous rightwing sites (national review) libertarian sites (reason.com) and leftwing sites (the nation and mother jones). i read all "religiously"

but not in a fascist way

;p

[MadHound]

75. Wow, you are being rather candid

"Often, insulting terms are the best terms" Gee, so how do you refer to African Americans then? Hispanics? Asians?

And when are you going to get it through your head that these are NOT fascists we're dealing with? Hello, McFly!:banghead: Go look at the definition of fascist that you posted earlier. Does it say anywhere in there anything dealing with being religious fanatics? No, it doesn't, because those of a totalitarian bent combined with a religious bent are called THEOCRATS, whose form of government is called a THEOCRACY! Get the difference, see the picture, understand the meaning?

In fact most fascists have always discouraged well established religions, for the offer ideological competition to the fascist mindset.

And frankly friend, I am discussing ideas, I'm trying to point to the error in your defintion of terms. The only reason that I'm pointing you to FR is for you to see the origin of that term, how it is and always has been meant as an insult.

But apparently you don't give a flying rat's ass about who you insult, you stated so yourself. And apparently you aren't very much into being intellectually honest either, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that the term islamofascist is both correct and proper.

And for what it's worth, I don't think, at least for now, that you're a rw shill. However I do think that you are woefully uninformed, and dreadfully lacking in the motivation to educate yourself. Your posts absolutely scream that, especially with that repeated mantra of "I don't care". Sad really, watching a perfectly good mind go to hell, all because the owner doesn't care.

Rather than continously shooting off your mouth on a subject that both I and others on this thread have shown how very wrong you are, why don't you instead go do some research, and then get back to us, OK. You mind find out some things you didn't know before. Or do you still not care:eyes:

[sgxnk]

81. yes, i am candid

i refer to african americans as ... african americans, etc.

african american isn't a morally bankrupt scumbag ideology. it's a race

there is no analogy, despite your weak attempt to play the race card. islamofascism isn't a race. it's an ideology. also, unlike race (or sexaul preference) it is a choice. one can choose to be or not to be an islamofascist. but it is a bad choice to be one. cause they suck. do u see the distinction, or are u a woefully uninformed freeper? (sarcasm...)

as to the "woefully uninformed" claim

this is another classic elitist meme. i see it similarly in strong ideologues of the left and right

translated simply it means that "if you don't agree with me, you must not be educated"

i could sit here and give you my bona fides, but suffice it to say i suspect i am at least as well informed as you when it comes to political philosophy

i have tried to read all the great (and some of the not so great) philosophers, and have even read derrida and foucault in the original french. and kant, hume, neitzsche (cue: fish called wanda), hegel, burke, hayek, mills, etc. look how kewl i am. ph33r my big brain

regardless, i don't think that being insulting is "bad". it is insulting to call a scumbag a scumbag? yes. but i will do it

islamofascists, or whatever YOU choose to call them ... you can call them a ham sandwich for all i care... (and don't start on dietary restrictions please) DESERVE insult

this has exactly ZERO to say about muslims qua muslims. it is not an insult to islam any more than referring to christofascists is an insult to christianity

the insult to islam is the islamofascists themselves who use a religion to serve their nefarious means

but again, spare me the elitism. it is so common among ideologues (left and right) and so tiresome. "if only the poor huddled masses were as enlightened as i am, clearly they would agree with me"

it reminds me of that smarmy line from goodwill hunting (a great movie btw) where he makes that line about how reading zinn will 'knock you on your ass'

um, no. but whatEver. ditto chomsky.

why i said i don't care is that the fact (assuming it's true) that lord imperial poobah freeper evul wingnut person (tm) invented or popularized the term islamofascist OR that it is insulting should somehow mean I won't use it

i will use it. and i don't care in re: above. because it's irrelevant to the descriptive utility of the term

and yes, i am candid

i'm soaking in it

[MadHound]

87. Why should I fear your big brain?

Nothing to fear if you're not putting it to any sort of use. And it is obvious that instead of exercising your "big brain" you are instead letting it be a couch potatoe. Otherwise you would realize that fascism is a *political* term, one that has nothing to do with religious fundementalism. You would also realize that religious based states are theocracies. You say that you are well versed in political philosophy. Well friend, it certainly doesn't show, since you don't even know the basic terms, and instead prefer to resort to derogatory terms that insult all Muslims, and also resort to ad hominem attacks to berate those who disagree with you.

Yes, it seems that in your world, anybody who disagrees with you is an "elitist" That's a laugher friend, especially if you knew me. But you don't, so instead you throw insults around simply because somebody disagrees with you. That friend isn't the actions of a "big brain" Those are the actions of somebody who is intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt.

And islamofascism isn't an ideology, it is a contrived form of hate speech originated and used by those on the right to belittle Muslims in general. Apparently either you don't get that, or you don't care. Again, very telling statements about your character. Again, I strongly recommend that you do some research on this term that you are so blithely throwing around. It my save your ass from getting stomped by a bunch of Muslims that you pissed off by inadvertantly using it in public.

So I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You refuse to believe a different POV, I refuse to believe in anything other than the truth. Such is the way it goes, have a nice life:hi:

[sgxnk]

92. your elitism knows no bounds as shown by your last post

the difference between an elitist like you, and us "common folk" is that i am humble and open-minded enough not to refer to my political conclusion as (cue impressive horn music)

THE TRUTH

as you do

you know nothing about me, but you love to make assumptions

disagreeing with me is not elitist. thinking that your conclusions are the only right ones and clearly evidence of your superior intellect/learning IS elitism

that you fail to understand the distinction is telling

you do not have superior learning. you only have self-satisfied smug certainty. in that way, you are an almost exact analogue of many religious fundamentalists i have met

oh, the irony

you evidence the exact sort of ideological rigidity, narrow thinking, closeminded elitism that i see in ideologues of the left and right

if only the poor huddled masses were as intelligent and educated as you, then they would know the one and only truth (tm) that you are so certain of

in a way, you are much like the religious right, oh so convinced of your great holy text that you cannot be open minded about the possibility that in all your getting, you got no understanding

[MadHound]

94. OK then, since you are so convinced that I'm wrong, and that you're right

Let's see you break down the origins, and the etymology of the term islamofascist. I'll be waiting. Oh, and I wouldn't use the dictionary entry that you used upthread, it totally undermines your case.

And please remember, deal in facts only, not your own spin or speculation. Thanks.

[sgxnk]

96. i;m not

im not convinced you are wrong

i am saying that i don't care who invented the term islamofascist, in that its "creator" has no bearing on whether i choose to use it

i am also saying that i don't think that the fact that islamofascist is insulting is a bad thing

it insults islamofascists. they SHOULD be insulted. they are a scummy ideology

i disagree that it demeans muslims on the whole, if that is your point

as to whether the political philosophy of islamofascists is "fascism" in the dictionary sense, imo it is

are there SOME differences between the original italian fascists and islamic fascists

um, plenty

but it certainly walks like, talks like, and smells like fascism

this particular brand of fascism happens to be based on a twisted and evil version of islam, which is why the descriptor "islamo" is added to the fascism

in that they are doing these things (which is indisputable) in the name of islam

again, their twisted version of it

so, i;m not sure exactly what you disagree with here. we both agree the term is insulting. do u think it's insulting to ALL muslims? i totally disagree

for all u know i am a muslim. but i never speak on the internet as to stuff about my family, or my race, or my religious beliefs (longstanding policy), so i can't answer that question :)

i really hate semantical wanks. if u choose not to use the term islamofascist because u think it is semantically unsound or has unholy derivations from the evul freeper universe (tm), then don't use it

what i think is more important is what one thinks about this group of people whatever name you choose to use to describe them

fwiw, the term anti-semitism is technically also problematic, in that it is used to mean anti-jew, but the word semitic actually includes non jews. but it has agreed upon meaning. everybody knows what u mean by antisemitism

similarly, you know what i MEAN by islamofascists. i mean those that kill people, in the name of islam, for all sorts of nefarious reasons like 1) they aren't muslim 2) they were insulting the koran 3) they were drawing pictures of mohammed etc. etc. etc.

what is important is that these people are nefarious scum

what u choose to call them is of little import to me.

i am more interested in your myopic elitism that assumes that those that choose to use terms like islamofascist are less educated and enlightened than you, etc.

that whole elitist thing that you have THE TRUTH (tm)

yenta, heal thyself

open up your eyes. look around

mebbe if you see all the left AND rightwing ideologues who subscribe to that same (if only the dumb middling hordes knew what i knew they would realize the truth) silly elitism, it might open your mind to alternative ideas, and also to your own prejudices, assumptions, and bogeypersons :)

[MadHound]

102. Whoops, there it is!

That phrase that says it all about you and your attitude. "I don't care."

You don't care that you are insulting an entire group of people.

You don't care about facts.

You don't care about what other people think.

Nope, you. . .just. . .don't. . .care.

OK then, a little lesson in reality for you, since it seems like you are too intellectually lazy to go find out for yourself.

"Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term. And wartime propaganda is usually, if not always, crafted to produce hysteria, the destruction of any sense of proportion. Such words, undefined and unmeasured, are used by people more interested in making us lose our heads than in keeping their own."<4> —Joseph Sobran, syndicated columnist.

"Others argue that movements characterized as "Islamofascist" are dissimilar to fascist movements of the past. According to Roxanne Euben, a professor of political science at Wellesley College,

"Fascism is nationalistic and Islamicism is hostile to nationalism. Fundamentalism is a transnational movement that is appealing to believers of all nations and races across national boundaries. There is no idea of racial purity as in Nazism. Islamicists have very little idea of the state. It is a religious movement, while Fascism in Europe was a secular movement. So if it's not what we really think of as nationalism, and if it's not really like what we think of as Fascist, why use these terms?"<5>

"Juan Cole, professor of modern Middle East and South Asian history at the University of Michigan, argues that the term is offensive and tantamount to hate speech, because it is a desecration that is profoundly insulting to Muslims.

"It is hard to see the difference between the bigotry of anti-Semitism as an evil and the bigotry that Medved displays toward Islam. It is more offensive than I can say for him to use the word "Islamo-fascist." Islam is a sacred term to 1.3 billion people in the world. It enshrines their highest ideals. To combine it with the word "fascist" in one phrase is a desecration and a form of hate speech. Are there Muslims who are fascists? Sure. But there is no Islamic fascism, since "Islam" has to do with the highest ideals of the religion. In the same way, there have been lots of Christian fascists, but to speak of Christo-Fascism is just offensive."<12>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism>

"Islamofascism
Used to compare the ideological or operational characteristics of certain modern Islamist movements with European fascist movements of the early 20th century, neofascist movements, or totalitarianism. Organizations that have been labeled Islamofascist include Al-Qaeda, the current Iranian government,<1> the Taliban, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hezbollah. None label themselves fascist, however, and critics of the term argue that associating the religion of Islam with fascism is both offensive and historically inaccurate. See: Islamofascism (term), Neofascism and religion#Islam
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_epithets>

And again, I must point out that your very own definition of fascist, as listed above, does not contain any mention of religion in their definition. In fact, if you will read your history, especially political history, you will find that *no* fascist state is based on religion. A state that bases its governmental systems on religion is known as a *theocracy*.

In fact, since the people that you talk about base their beliefs and actions on their interpretation of Islam, they too would be better known as *theocrats*, not fascists. In fact, given the dispersed nature of Al-Qaeda's organizational structure, they can't even be classified as fascists really, since fascism relies on a strict, centralized hierarchy of command. Al-Qaeda and other such terrorist organizations group themselves into autonymous cells, with only vague directives about what to do, and few, if any connections to one another or any sort of "leader". They plan and carry out their actions independently.

And yes, islamofascism is an insulting, derogatory term towards all of those in the Muslim faith. If you don't believe me, go down to your local mosque and poll some of themembers. I know a fair number of people who are Muslim, and they indeed *do* find the term derogatory.

But then again, as you say, you don't care. Funny, that attitude. Kind of goes along with labeling people who disagree with you as "elitists". Or ignoring facts and reality.

Yup, pretty much sums it all up for me.

You. . .just. . .don't. . .care.

[ButterflyBlood]

84. nitpick: Mussolini was actually an atheist

Though he was heavily supported by the church at first.

Better example would be someone like Franco.

[Dhalgren]

89. Ok...I'll give you that. what about Peron & Pinochet?

They were at least nominally Christian - and, right, Franco probably made the claim...

[ButterflyBlood]

90. Well, Peron was excommunicated

As for Pinochet, his regime was still rather secular.

What you are talking about is called Clerical Fascism though, and there were many other examples throughout Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

[Dhalgren]

95. What I am really talking about is that there really are people who

are nominally Muslims who are also fascists, just as there are people who are nominally Christian who are also fascists. You really can't use the term "Christian", pertaining to the religion, itself, as a qualifier of "fascist"; it wouldn't make much sense. The problem some people have with the term "Islamic" is that this term only applies as pertaining to the religion. "Christian" is the English form for both the religion and the person who adheres to the religion, whereas, "Islamic" pertains to the religion and "Muslim" pertains to the adherent to that religion. I think that this is why there is confusion (apart from intentional insult) with the use of the term. I think that when most people use the phrase "Islamic Fascist" they mean "a Muslim who is a fascist", otherwise, the phrase is essentially meaningless.

[sgxnk]

97. the distinction

is that the islamic fascist aka islamofascist is committing his acts, and is adhering to his ideology IN THE NAME OF his twisted perception ***of*** islam, and that is why term has descriptive utility

similarly, i think the term christofascist would have similar utility for those that would murder all non-christians, or those that insult christianity, etc. as the islamofascists are wont to do, based on their (twisted) christian identity

see: cartoons. see: salman rushdie etc.

iirc, andrew sullivan has been using christo-fascists (or a close spelling for some time)

[Dhalgren]

98. You have my permission to use the phrases of your choice

whether they make any sense or not. :hi: I do not care what terminology you use when speaking out against those you hate. It is enough that I know who it is that you are currently hating, the why at this point is painfully obvious...

[sgxnk]

100. i hate

the ideology of those who would kill people based on their religion or the color of their skin

correct

[fooj]

27. Oh, they EXIST alright. On BOTH SIDES of the isle.

[milkyway]

45. none of those have anything to do with fascism. Wingnuts made up the term,

probably Limbaugh, to try to confuse the hoopleheads into believing this is the same as WWII.

[malaise]

71. BBC International just carried

a report on his speech and said -'what he referred to as Islamo-fascists'. Reputable institutions do not repeat bogus words without caveats.

[Strelnikov_]

79. "Confuse The Hoopleheads Into Believing . . Same As WWII"

Ka-ching

They are religious fundamentalists, not fascists.

Thing is, calling them religious fundamentalists could shine some unwanted light into corners of our own little part of Hells Half Acre.

[Blue Belle]

64. Yes, they exist...

IN ALL RELIGIONS. I'm getting sick of the media and the president refusing to make the distinction between Islam, and Al Queda.

[malaise]

4. I asked for a definition of this concept

the first tiem I heard it used by Bush. Fascism by definition is authoritarian rule on behalf of the corporate elite so I am totally confused re this ridiculous misuse of the concept. Of course when you are promoting fascism, it suits you to distort its real meaning. I am ready to leave this planet asp.

[Zomby Woof]

5. Not necessarily

I saw him as projecting. Bush is a Christian fascist, which is not insulting to all Christians, just the rightwing Pat Robertson type. Bush has more in common with the ones he was referring to than most Americans would be willing to admit - it hits too close to home.

[Amonester]

36. Yep. Psychologists call it "Freudian Projection."

"Freudian Projection is a mechanism of projecting one's own unconscious or undesirable characteristics onto an opponent. It's a defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It's likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

[CJCRANE]

6. I was shouting at the TV.

I've had enough. These neocon people are desperate.

The rhetoric gives it away that it's mere political opportunism. They don't give a f*ck about our safety.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. Wow, imagine being able to tick off 1.5 billion people in one shot

I bet he feels like a big boy today!



disclaimer: I'm not sure if my figure of 1.5 billion people who practice Islam is close to correct. I was guessing based on the size of the world and popularity of the religion.

[Xenotime]

12. He does that every time. Is it any wonder why...

the people of Islam hate us?

[sabra]

17. I guess he's been listening to the Michael Savage show?

[Virginia Dare]

19. I'm sure that was the purpose of the statement...n/t

[Endangered Specie]

22. Takes a Fascist to know a Fascist.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

24. Sounds like he listens to RW radio...

...Fascism is what BushCo has ushered into the U.S. and their use of the term as applied to the "enemy" is meant to diminish it's potency/effectiveness when it's so rightly applied to themselves.

[Hubert Flottz]

29. "ISLAMIC FASCISTS"

Has Karl Rove's footprints all over it!

They know they've already wore "Terra-ist" out!

[aquart]

32. They need to use the word FIRST.

So when we, correctly, call these "neocons" by their real name "fascists," they can make it a he said, she said, "No, they're the fascists and you're supporting them."

Of all the pithy things I would think to call Islamic terrorists, "fascists" isn't one of them. It's a planned distraction from the real fascist activity: ie, privatization of all our national resources, for instance. Or the takeover of all our media outlets.

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Only because they can't use "communist" as a bogeyman any more.

"fascist" is the new "communist".

Even when he and the rest of the neocons use the term entirely erroneously.

[alfredo]

46. they are nationalist who happen to be Muslim.

They are protecting their homeland and use religion as a source of justification and emotional strength. You know: God and country.

[nomo]

47. CHRISTIAN FASCISTS!

No shortage of those here.

I say we duke it out to see who is the bad-assest mofo!

[Igel]

53. Hardly.

But that won't keep people from suddenly suspending their usual ways of understanding English noun phrases so that they can feel justified in being insulted.

They're already insulted. They just need a motivation.

[Julius Civitatus]

56. He is fully adopting "freeper-talk"

They no longer make any qualms about it. No shame. They go all freeper in their speech, adopting terms coined by the fascistosphere. Crazy.

[SoCalDem]

66. or channeling Lou Dobbs (he coined the "Islamofascist" moniker)

Namecalling is what this crew does best.; Their supporters are simpletons who cannot grasp a fully formed concept.

[Jed Dilligan]

67. It's all part of the myth that this is a repeat of WWII nt

[sendero]

69. They are just trying..

... to co-opt the word fascist as they are starting to notice too many people are using it to describe them.

Fascism is a marriage between state and corporate power. The "Islamicists" have no corporate power to marry, they are not fascists.

[BuyingThyme]

70. Projection.

[MikeyJones]

73. Not really

Just the wackos who want to make every non-Muslim on the planet a Muslim by forcible conversion.

[Ilsa]

77. I've been hearing this term alot lately.

I think Rushbo has been using it (I don't listen to him), and this knucklehead named bill fallin with a conservative website uses it in his columns in Ga and Fl.

[Fierce]

78. Is that what he said?

I thought he said "Izlamek faschst." Swear to God the man can't pull a word out of his mushmouth to save his sorry ass.

[Hoping4Change]

85. Please explain your assertion.

[slackmaster]

88. No, just the assholes among them

Your statement is not logical. He was referring to a subset of people who practice Islam.

:nuke:

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

[Hoping4Change]

93. "clerical fascism or some close hybrid"

"a good case can be made that the religious ideology of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban is a form of clerical fascism or some close hybrid. It certainly is a form of religious nationalism.

This could help explain the potential for links between Islamic religious supremacists and U.S. White racial supremacists... This is purely a speculative exercise, however, based on ideological affinities.

A similar argument that places the Islamic supremacists in the context of apocalyptic revolutionary millenarianism makes the same point, since most U.S. neofascists can be placed in the same category.

See: The `Religion' of Usamah bin Ladin: Terror As the Hand of God, by Jean E. Rosenfeld, Ph.D., UCLA Center for the Study of Religion. "




http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/third_position.html

[Sydnie]

103. Nihad Awad is taking him to task for it right now on C-Span 1

He is asking the press corp to ask for someone to define that term so that we all know just what it means. He also said that it is painting all muslims and is counterproductive in fighting terrorisim.

[slackmaster]

105. Someone should expel Awad

Just because it would sound funny.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.