HOW IT IS

[Mythsaje]

Every time they refer to us as the "extreme left" they are, in effect, calling us Communists. That's what extreme left IS, is it not?

They can't use the word communist too overtly, because people won't buy it. So they say the same thing in other words. Joe (I've lost my) Momentum is slamming US for being far left when he knows damn well we're not. Just playing to the right (wrong) side of the playing field.

Communism = Extreme Left

Socialism = Far Left

Modern American Liberalism = Center Left (Mainstream)

Joe Leiberman = Center Right

G. W. Bush and Co. and, for that matter, Islamic Radicals = Extreme Right

As usual, the right is framing the issue the way THEY want, and the Democratic leadership doesn't know how to respond...

It's this easy. "Are you calling me a COMMUNIST?"

The response will be "Well, no."

"Communism is extreme left. If you're not calling me a communist, stop using that term. You can't even call me 'far' left. That would be socialism, and while I DO share a few ideals with the socialists, I'm not one of those folks either. I'm a mainstream liberal...just a smidge left of the REAL center. You, and others like you, are only confused because you're standing on the extreme right with people like Pat Robertson, G.W. Bush, and the leadership of Iran."

"If you continue to use that terminology, you're deliberately lying to the American People. So knock it off."

[helderheid]

1. Word.

:thumbsup:

[porphyrian]

2. It's all framing, it doesn't have anything to do with actual...

...representation or numbers. Don't bother analyzing it further than that, and don't play their game - they've defined the parameters. Just laugh it off as stupid. We need to frame it the way we see fit, ours is the majority opinion.

[Mythsaje]

3. Yeah, so far ignoring their framing has worked SO well...n/t

[porphyrian]

5. Which part of "We need to frame it the way we see fit, ours is the..."

"...majority opinion," suggested to you that I was saying we should ignore it?

[Mythsaje]

7. They've been better at it, so far...

So, yes, we need to counter their framing and come up with some of our own. But it's two-pronged. We can't just ignore what they say and say what WE want people to hear. It doesn't seem to work that way, especially with the complicit press. We get airtime when we respond to their framing (sometimes) but we DON'T get so much airplay when we want to set our own frame.

[porphyrian]

8. If we are reacting, they are in control. If we use their language...

...they are in control. You are the only one who has said anything about ignoring them. I said we should reject their game (by laughing at their stupidity in thinking we'll just play along) and that we should frame ourselves however we want, such as with "ours is the majority opinion," (which also happens to be true). I'm right, if you can understand what I'm saying. That isn't meant as an insult, I just don't think you get it.

[Mythsaje]

12. WE may know that what they say is bullshit

but they have the means to spread that bullshit far and wide. We can't afford to blow it off or laugh it off, if it's continually painting us into a corner. They attacked Kerry's service record and it seemed HE blew it off. He shouldn't have.

"Reacting" rather than "acting" is a good point, but it depends on HOW we react. We need to put THEM on the defensive when they throw out obvious bullshit. Call them on it. EVERY time.

[porphyrian]

13. You are still accepting their framing...

...if you are still accepting that media time is the biggest/best/only way to sway the opinions of the masses. There is growing empirical evidence that this really isn't true - people are waking up. We can and should laugh at their framing, because it is ridiculous and inaccurate, however we need to insert our own frame at the same time, since ours is the majority opinion. That's not the same as blowing it off.

We agree on the second point.

[elehhhhna]

16. Now that voters are being called "insurgents", there's no place

lower for the Cons & NoMentum to GO.

[porphyrian]

17. Really. I guess, in the sense that we're exercising our rights...

...as members of a Democratic society, we are insurgents to those tyrants. And I'm proud to be one if it means bringing Democracy back to the government they've attempted to usurp.

However, saying that would be allowing them to frame the conversation, and I'm for rejecting their framing entirely.

Edit: Omitted my final sentence for some stupid reason.

[elehhhhna]

20. Yep. Definition of "Insurgent" :

insurgent<1,noun>insurgent<2,adjective>

Main Entry: 1 in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: -j&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise -- more at SURGE

1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent *
2 : one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=insurgent

Okay, so we ARE insurgents.

* Main Entry: bel·lig·er·ent
Pronunciation: -r&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: modification of Latin belligerant-, belligerans, present participle of belligerare to wage war, from belliger waging war, from bellum + gerere to wage
1 : waging war; specifically : belonging to or recognized as a state at war and protected by and subject to the laws of war
2 : inclined to or exhibiting assertiveness, hostility, or combativeness

[Mythsaje]

18. I wouldn't take Lamont's victory as an example of what to expect in Nov...

it's a good sign, yes, but the majority of Americans STILL get their news from the mainstream media sources. And countering their framing on national television would be a good strategy, regardless of what else we're doing out on the net or on the streets.

We have to be aware of their framing, have ways of countering it, and get our message out.

[porphyrian]

19. I think you're overemphasizing the power of the media today.

Things aren't the same today as they were even a year ago. As people get disgruntled, they get cynical, and they start calling bullshit more often, especially when the message doesn't change as the viewers know reality has. I'm not suggesting we ignore the media, I'm saying that, if we frame the debate properly ourselves, we won't have to worry about media coverage.

[RedStateShame]

4. Real translation: Extreme left = Political threat

[Ignoramus]

6. The left/right sham

The left vs. right paradigm is designed to imply that sanity is in the middle. The left or right wing of a bird, is the analogy. What is that bird? It's more like a parasite. Which flavor of totalitarianism do you prefer? I'm anti-left/right.

The difference between liberal and totalitarian isn't left vs. right,

The left vs. right paradigm also comes from the perspective of how you fit in people's perceptions, as opposed to what your philosophy is. It is determining your politics on what is "common sense", as opposed to what your principle is. If it is "common sense" that cannibalism is good, then your are left or right depending on what amount of cannibalism you support. That's idiotic.

I am for principles and authenticity, rather than marketing, so I don't define myself in terms of the false center biased left/right analogy.

I'm not left-wing I'm out-tentacle.

[SutaUvaca]

9. "Out tentacle" !!

I love that!
Plus I get to choose which tentacle I'm out on for any given day.
Flexibility is close to open-mindedness.

Nevertheless, the "Hey, you calling me a communist?" rejoinder is what I will use on my repuke siblings next time the opportunity arises, and it will.

[elehhhhna]

15. or testicle. We finally grew some!

[Mythsaje]

11. I consider any form of extremism dangerous...

And I DON'T consider myself an extremist of any stripe and resent it being flung at me without any kind of response from those who are allegedy representing me.

[elehhhhna]

21. Dammned well said.

[Cleita]

10. They've been talking doublespeak since before Bush

took over. They turned liberal into dirty word. They claim moderate Democrats are somewhere a little left of Rick Santorum. Every word they propagandize is a code word that they carefully put out with a new meaning. They repeat it over and over in the context of the new meaning so that now, it comes out of the mouths of the emptyheaded like a very bad thing. This is why in retaliation I don't mind calling them Nazis, because it is closer to the truth that any code word they put out.

Incidentally, if you want to test this out, get a copy of "Mein Kampf" and check out everything that Hitler had to say about propaganda and you will see that they are following his play book. Also, Hitler claims to have learned his propaganda techniques from the British and Americans in WWI.

[elehhhhna]

14. NoMentum is Rove's pooch and Bush's lapdog. This will get worse

before it gets better.

[Junkdrawer]

22. You see, it's the responsibility of Democrats...

to locate the Republican position, no matter how far Right, and move exactly 1 inch to the Left of that position.

Anyone who does not do that is a Left Wing Wacko.

Thus sayeth the Corporate Media.

Amen