France's changes to draft rankle U.S.

[tocqueville]

By EDITH M. LEDERER, Associated Press Writer
24 minutes ago

UNITED NATIONS - The United States and France appeared at odds Wednesday over Arab demands to change a U.N. resolution they are co-sponsoring to call for a complete cessation of Israeli-Hezbollah hostilities and withdrawal of Israeli forces, diplomats said.

France proposed new language on a total cease-fire and Israeli pullout, but the Americans rejected it out of concern that without a robust international force, a vacuum would be created in southern Lebanon, a Hezbollah stronghold, the diplomats said.

While both countries welcomed Lebanon's announcement Monday that it will deploy 15,000 soldiers to the south when Israel withdraws, the U.S. does not believe this force and U.N. peacekeepers can prevent a vacuum without the international force, the diplomats said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the negotiations are private.

U.S. and French diplomats had been hoping for a vote on the draft early this week. But the differences between the co-sponsors meant that a Security Council vote on the resolution to try to end the fighting would be delayed at least until Thursday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060809/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_un

[leftchick]

1. god I loathe him

<snip>

U.S. Ambassador John Bolton refused to comment on specifics of the negotiations but acknowledged in an interview that differences remain.

"We're still pressing for a vote on a resolution as early as we can, but we've got to reach agreement, and there are still a lot of issues that need to be considered," Bolton told The Associated Press. "So, when will the vote be? It's hard to say at this point."

[bryant69]

6. Looking at him makes me think about oatmeal

I don't know why.

I like oatmeal. I mean it's ok. It's not my favorite breakfast food (I prefer something that will cause my heart to not work properly).

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NNN0LHI]

8. Did you used to eat oatmeal when you were a kid and watch...

...Kaptain Kangaroo?

I did.

Thats just might be the connection?

Don

[bryant69]

10. Could be.

He's a lot nastier than captain kangaroo, though.

[Canuckistanian]

11. This is why

Wilford Brimley, former spokesman for Quaker Oats:

[malaise]

9. You're generous

Anyone has the Siniora Op Ed in today's Washington Post?

[Palladin]

12. The French will soon make a deal with the Lebanese

and their French "international" force will come down with the Lebanese army. The Lebanese government, including Hezbollah, will allow this. This force will move down to the border, pushing the Israelis out, including out of the Sheeba Farms. The Hezbollah militia will not contest this. France may say that they will disarm Hezbollah, and may even write it into the resolution, but in practice they won't do it, and Hezbollah will effectively be folded into the Lebanese army. Syria and Russia will re-arm Lebanon. France needs to get more of their naval assets in place as this happens, because they will break the Israeli naval blockade and take "robust" reprisals on Israel if they pull any shit. Lebanon effectively becomes a French and Syrian protectorate again. The US (government) and Israel lose, bigtime. This jackass Bolton cannot prevent this. He has no leverage. The French will tell him to stick his arguments up his derriere. None of this even needs to be done through the UN, and can be accomplished by a diplomatic arrangement among Lebanon, France, Russia, and Syria. Vive la France!

[ERF]

17. You're scenario is a joke right?. France would never do that.

Your scenario doesn't take anything even close to reality into consideration. Do you live in some alternate universe?

[Palladin]

23. Read this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/09/AR2006080900445.html
All of it. Somebody else will post it and discuss it. For starters, it mentions that France wants Israel
to immediately withdraw. Out of Lebanese territory. Right now. The French don't give a rat's ass whether Bolton, Bush, Israel, AIPAC,and the neocons don't like it. It also mentions that the French will go their own way, if the US tries to balk them in the UN.

This is the "international force" that Israel and American neocons are going to get. The Lebanese army, incorporating Hezbollah, re-armed with plenty of SAMS for the future, and the French, and the French navy. It will be plenty "robust". Israel's only chance to avoid this is the heavy gamble of the massive invasion, now, but that only buys a little time. That is the desperate strategy of doubling and redoubling your bets in a losing streak in a crap game, and that's why these Israelis will probably fall for it. There is now no way Israel/Bush/neocons can achieve the "victory" that they arrogantly thought would be so easy. Maybe they can get a very bloody stalemate. Maybe. They truly deserve whatever they get. They have received plenty of well-deserved humiliation so far, and there's more waiting for them and their worldwide supporters.
-------
It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it. - General Robert E. Lee, on watching the
slaughter of Union troops trying to assault Marye's Heights

[ERF]

29. Does "Suez" mean anything to you? France would never do

anything militarily that affects US interests without US permission.

There is certainly nothing in the article that indicates that France has any inkling of even considering your scenario. Your suggestions appear to be mostly in your own head.

Besides, France would likely lose a war against Israel whichis hardly worth considering because it is impossible at the moment.

[Ms. Clio]

24. very interesting analysis

and thanks for the link below.

[ERF]

2. without a robust international force, a vacuum will be created in souther

And that vacuum will be filled by Hezbullah. And then they will attack Israel again. And we end up back in the same place as we are now.

I don't think France and the US really are disagreeing. This seems more like good cop /bad cop diplomacy. Just my gut feeling on it, because the French are going to be the ones providing the majority of troops for this robust international force.

[Dhalgren]

3. The "deal" will mean nothing if it does not require Israel to

withdraw all of its troops first. Arabs are getting tired of being second-class world citizens and they are right...

[ERF]

4. How can Israel withdraw its troops first and there not be a vacuum?

That is the whole point. The Israelis have to hand over the watch. As soon as they pull out, if their patrols aren't replaced b the patrols of another legitimate force, Hezbollah will be right back where they began.

By the way what do you think the route cause(s) of Arab second-class citizenry is?

[Dhalgren]

15. There would be no "vacuum", because, as you say, Hezbollah

would remain in place. Hezbollah is a Lebanese political movement, they are from Lebanon, they are Lebanese, it is their country - no vacuum.

As for the second-class citizen status, IMO it is because of the European/Western colonization of the Arab world (of course, with the help of the Ottoman empire - who were Turks, BTW). Couple that with the whole ideology of the "white man's burden" and you have Western "leaders" like Bush, Rice, Bolton, and Blair who speak to and of Arabs as though they were children. That is a disgusting humiliation that no people would relish...

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dhalgren]

18. Speaking of showing "true colors" - nice job.

Failing to recognize "victim-hood" in those you have victimized is a very real part of the Western attitude toward non-white peoples. It was apparent in the treatment of the Native Americans in this country, the Filipinos after the Spanish American War, and any number and groupings of Latin Americans for over a hundred years, the treatment of Indians and Arabs by the British and French and we won't even go into how terrible has been the suffering of Africans at the hands of Westerners.

It is true that in many Arab societies the status of women is a shame and an abomination (to borrow a phrase from the fundies), but in the two Arab societies where women have been accorded some semblance of equality, the West has gone in and destroyed the country - Iraq and Lebanon. There are all kinds of "excuses" and "reasons" the warmongers can come up with to justify the murder of Lebanon, but they are all bogus. Israel's current aggression against the Lebanese people has little to do with "self defense" and everything to do with a "Greater Israel"...

Good luck to you with your Israel First thing... :hi:

[Ms. Clio]

25. outstanding response

rational, reasonable, and restrained.

Yep, your true colors are showing.

[tocqueville]

5. the "vaccuum" is already full of Hezbollah

saw pictures today of retreating wounded IDF soldiers that had been only a couple of kilometers last night inside Lebanon. It's obvious that they get a bad beating.

All this is just US rethorics to win time and expand the agression on Lebanon. The Hezbollah has said that it will immediately cease fire if the Israeli soldiers pull back. And they have all to win in keeping their word. They can then wait for an International force and declare "victory".

I don't give a rat's ass about the Hezbollah. But I am really concerned about the destruction of a whole country and the murder of its civilian population in the name of "self-defense". 90% of the Israeli targets are not military targets, they are targets of pure hate.

Besides all that theory of "attacking again" is pure BS. The squirmishes at the border with rockets and kidnapping of eachother's soldiers have been going low scale in 10 years. And the latest original rocketing and abductions weren't any different from the previous ones. They were no reasons for starting a war on that scale.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

7. it is about the cease fire

Israel needs to destroy lots more infrastructure and people more before that nasty ceasfire goes into effect...

<snip>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060809/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

JERUSALEM - Arab satellite TV Al-Jazeera reported that 11 Israeli soldiers were killed Wednesday in heavy fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas near the border in south Lebanon. Meanwhile, Israel's Security Cabinet debated a proposal to vastly expand its ground offensive in Lebanon, with key ministers arguing the military must deal more blows to Hezbollah and score quick battlefield victories before a cease-fire is imposed.

[ERF]

14. I agree. They need to destory a lot more terrorists and their

infrastructure to keep this from happening again.

Israel cannot trust its neighbours and it is taking a chance by agreeing to trust an international force at all - which will probably only result in a repeat of the early 1980s.

Ultimately this war will probably prevent more killing and death on both sides - especially if Hezbollah ends up severly weakend.

[tocqueville]

19. the Hezbollah's "infrastructure" is the same than the

insurgency in Iraq. And we know how efficient aerial bombing or even artillery is to get at that kind of "infrastructure". Yesterday they went in 3 km (6 miles !) into Lebanon and came back with eleven dead (at least officially).

The "infrastucture" is only a pretext to kill "arabs".

[leftchick]

20. they are destroying Lebanon and have killed over 1000 innocent people

not terrorists. They are detroying innocent peoples' homes and businesses and their lives. The israelis justify it in the most far fetched of reasoning. Just like the US does when they commit war crimes in Iraq. Oh look! Here is a baby terrorist!



A man carries the body of a baby ,killed during an Israeli raid on Monday, during the funeral held in Beirut August 9, 2006. REUTERS/Eric Gaillard (LEBANON)

Bombing a funeral? That is what the 'terrorists' in Iraq do!

If you think this war of agression by Israel will turn out any better than the last one you are sorely mistaken.

[ERF]

21. What would you suggest Israel do?

[leftchick]

22. quit killing innocent people and stoking the fire for a greater Mid East

war would be a start. What they are doing is not getting rid of Hezbollah. Taking pot shots at Palistine at the same time is breeding terrorism. It isn't stoping anything! It is starting something though....

It is clear that peace and safety is not their objective. If you pull up the PNAC plan, the long range goals of "A Clean Break" including involving Iran and Syria? Well it is all going according to the Real Plan.

[JackNewtown]

26. We are not Israelis. We need to look after American interests

We are only fueling more hatred and hence more terror against us by sponsoring Israel's atrocities in Lebanon.

[JackNewtown]

27. A little less conversation, action needed from France

France has been the leader for peace thus far. However, I would hope they would finally take real action instead of merely uttering great words. France is the world's 5th largest economy in the world and would have substantial leverage over the warring parties, particularly Israel.

[Selatius]

28. If the goal is dislodging Hezbollah, then immediate cease-fire is in order

Hezbollah support has simply grown stronger each day with more civilian casualties. This is going to have negative long-term implications for Israel if Hezbollah ends up with even more support and members after Israel bombed them than before. In fact, it would represent a Hezbollah victory not in a tactical sense but in a symbolic sense.

A force should be sent in while Israeli troops are leaving but only AFTER a cease-fire is in effect. Do NOT expect the French to send their own sons into a bloodbath. They are tired of this kind of adventurism after being being bloodied and defeated in places like Algeria and Indochina.