I owe an apology

[WilliamPitt]

to the gay and lesbian community here at DU.

Last week, I got into a pretty nasty argument in a thread. I don't remember what the thread was about, but the fight basically revolved around someone here antagonizing me with Rove stuff. What this person did was rude, but my response at one point was beyond the pale.

The whole exchange got deleted, and I'd honestly forgotten about it, until a DUer today reminded me of it. Specifically, they told me that one of the remarks I made was insulting to the gay community. I apologized in that thread, but that was buried in a long thread about something else.

So, I want to apologize here.

[cali]

1. Didn't see the thread

Don't know what you said, but it's quite nice of you to make this apology.

[bigwillq]

2. I didn't see the thread either

but it takes a real man to apologize.

Thanks Will.

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

3. I didn't see the thread...

but you are far more courageous than many here...despite what we all say about you behind your back. ;) :hi:

[alfredo]

4. Well, I'm still pissed off

Not really, just wanted to make sure you are paying attention.

I missed the thread too, but thanks for being big enough to apologize for something most may not have seen.

[im10ashus]

5. Not sure what transpired, but it's honorable to admit you were wrong.

Just my 2 cents. As you were. :hi:

[Ian David]

6. I missed it, but you pissed me off, too

I'll still probably buy your book.

Asshole.



:P

[Warren DeMontague]

7. C'mon, Pitt. You're not foolin' anyone.

We all know what a huge "Fredhead" you are.



(with deepest, deepest, deepest apologies to Owsley Stanley)

[CrushTheDLC]

24. Ow, my eyes!

You gotta warn people before you post blasphemy like that :puke: :rant:

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Sorry.

There is no excuse. I'm a bad man.

[Rex]

55. Just a misunderstood sock puppet, in a crash helmet looking for some

hot action! Is that so wrong!?!?!

[cboy4]

8. Thank you for writing this Will.

:)

[Elidor]

9. Given all that's gone on over the last few months

Maybe you should put an apology in your sig line. You know, for the next time. :evilgrin:

[Bluebear]

10. 'my response at one point was beyond the pale.' Is that you, Mel Gibson?

;)

[JuniperLea]

11. It's hard not to get caught up in the passion here

I know from experience that it's easier to hold your tongue than to hold your fingers.

Didn't see it, didn't hear about it, but happy to see you being a stand-up guy.

[gratuitous]

12. {Best Captain Picard voice}

Not good enough! Not good enough, dammit!

Wait, what were talking about? (If anything.)

[cboy4]

14. If you're not gay, then with all due respect, it's none of your business.

He's not talking to straight DU'ers who think this is all a joke.

He's talking to gay and lesbian Du'ers . . . and he's saying he's sorry about something important to us.

Your flippant post ("Wait, what are we talking about? if anything) is insulting and it isn't cool.

[Duncan Grant]

18. Got Hegemony?

:eyes:

[IChing]

13. self delete... sorry I didn't read the other thread that started this..

I didn't mean to cheapen the apology or meaning.

[ruggerson]

15. I recognize that

as one who witnessed the thread in question, it takes courage to step up to the plate afterwards and own a mistake. I appreciate that you've done that, Will.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

21. No it was that Will Pitt character.

Why assume that Will's homophobic remark is the fault of a gay DUer???

[Susang]

26. !

:yourock:

[Catherine Vincent]

46. I dont' know, I just did.

[madokie]

17. always remember Will it takes a real man to admit mistakes.

it would do wonders for our country if one little dispicable POS would take a cue and make like Dick Nixon, apologize then get the fuck out of dodge.

[Duncan Grant]

19. Apology accepted.

It's surprising how deeply ingrained those biases can be -- thanks for the post, Will.

[trumad]

20. And that makes how many apology threads since you've been on DU?

;-)

[WilliamPitt]

23. As many as it takes

Duante Culpepper sucks at reading opposing offenses. The Patriots will clobber him.

[trumad]

27. perhaps---but wouldn't he be reading opposing defenses?

LOL

[WilliamPitt]

30. Durr

Me dum.

He lose.

Go smash.

[Jawja]

22. I didn't read it, Will,

but apology accepted.

I can't wait to read your new book.

[OzarkDem]

25. We all get "baited' now and then

AlGorem & I are STILL banned from the Ohio forum for defending Sherrod Brown :shrug: (I wear it as a badge of honor)

At first I thought you were apologizing about the platypus gonads thingy. Do you owe the platypii an apology? I'm not an expert on these finer points of ettiquite.

[Bluebear]

28. Everything aside, when I am 'baited' I don't sprout new biases

that weren't there before. Just sayin'.

[OzarkDem]

29. Clarify please?

I don't get your point.

[Bluebear]

33. Make me as mad as I can get...

...I still would not unleash a stereotypical tirade about Mexicans, for example, becuase those feelings aren't in me. Being baited would not unleash a bias that wasn't there to begin with.

[OzarkDem]

34. Sorry, I missed it too

but Will has apologized, please try to find some forgiveness in your heart.

[Bluebear]

37. When you are gay, sometimes forgiveness is not that easy

Particularly vile things said about what you are burn deeply.

[WilliamPitt]

31. I was baited

but that isn't an excuse.

[Sapphocrat]

32. Thank you, Will. n/t

[Bucky]

35. Only one way to atone: Dig up a GOP scandal and beat the crap out of 'em

I mean, don't beat all the crap out of 'em. That may not be humanly possible. But do what you can. Actually I'm not gay, but my daughter is and she's still a minor, so my opinions about how you should atone are jimmied up on her behalf. Also, they're not relevant. Nor are these current comments relevant. Actually, you should have quit reading this thread 20 seconds ago.

Peace.

[readmoreoften]

36. Let me explain why this matters.

Thanks for the apology. I know that apologizing can be hard.

Let me explain why it matters to me and why such comments don't always feel trivial.

First of all, I know that the comment was something along the lines of "shove it up your ass" and then "you can even go to Massachussetts and get benefits for it" (sorry if the paraphrase is off.) There are a number of reasons why it's offensive to us. The first is because it conflates our relationships into specific sex practices. Homosexuality is, in general, symbolized by anal sex. When many straight people look at gay men, anal sex is all they see. That's why two men can't cry into one another's arms on TV. The conservatives see it as anal sex. That's why two men can't hold hands in public. It's a public prelude to anal sex.

No one looks at a straight couple holding hands and thinks: anal sex! And yet I know that anal sex is a large part of many heterosexual relationships: the women getting it AND the men getting it. No one looks at a middle aged straight couple holding hands and says in their minds: oh my god, I bet he's going to go down on her later! If they notice them at all, they wonder about their families, their jobs, how they met, and the struggles they've gone through. If two old men are seen holding hands, it's anal sex. If two old married heterosexuals are holding hands, straights smile at one another and say "honey, that's going to be you and me someday."

Women are 51% of the population, but lesbians never figure into the equation. Unless we're butch, we're pretty invisible. We also carry the "taint" of "anal sex" by the fact that we are "gay", even though we are probably no more likely to be interested in it as straight women. But what we are represented as, almost universally, is oral sex. When we hold hands in public, conservatives view it as a public prelude to oral sex. We are always labelled as "perverse", even if we are engaging in the same "perversions" that straight people do every day. For us, standing too close to one another at the grocery store is seen as an act of vile perversion that has the potential to become a violent situation if the wrong person walks by.

When lesbians are young, on top of being nothing more than a symbol of oral sex, we are a symbol of a two girl show that exists only for male viewing pleasure. Straight men claim that they "like" us better because they can fantasize about us having sex. Imagine if someone walked up to you and your wife and said, "I support you folks. In fact, I jack off thinking about you banging your wife every night." Now imagine if a good portion of your male associatiates made the same statement. Assuming that a whole category of people exists for your personal fantasy life is dehumanizing. Now, I'm not saying you don't have the right to fantasize out two women having sex. (Lord knows a lot of lesbians watch gay male porn and I'd hate to see them accused of "objectifying men") But we are real people in real relationships that we protect and cherish. We're not putting on a show for you.

In fact, what you see in "lesbian porn" is not "lesbian sex". It is two women having sex in a style that invites the male gaze. It is an act performed for men. That doesn't mean that the women don't enjoy it. It just means that it's not what lesbians do in their relationships. It is part of the continuum of straight porn.

In short: some gay men don't like anal sex, some straight men do, some lesbians don't enjoy oral sex, some straight women do, some 75 year old straight grandparents are into bondage, some older gay male couples prefer to cuddle.

We are PEOPLE in loving relationships. We are not living breathing walking talking fetishes or pornographic movies. When we're treated that way, it is deeply dehumanizing.

Thanks for apologizing. All in all, it was just a single stupid comment. But comments are all we have to go on around here. :)

RMO

[ruggerson]

38. Bravo

My hat is off to you.

[Bluebear]

39. An excellent explanation.

You are correct, heterosexual men in particular, being 'penetrators', cannot seem to relate to sex in other terms. There are many, many gay men, for example, who never participate in anal sex. Yet one hears all the tittery ass-jokes from folks who don't see love in a gay coupling, only sodomy.

That Massachusetts is the only state where a gay person can, for now, make legal their love, and have it referred to in the terms of getting 'benefits for shoving things up your ass' is EXTREMELY hurtful. The apology is noted and should be accepted, but people should see the full context of what the painful comments are that gay people have to put up with all the time.

[readmoreoften]

41. He he he...

straight men ain't ALWAYS penetrators

Ask any sex shop what the girlies are coming in and asking for... the hot new thing is a strap on to "peg" their boyfriend with. Many many many many (can we add 15 to 50 manys on that?) straight men desire penetration and are deeply anxious about what that "might mean". It only means that you're one of the millions of normal straight guys that want to be penetrated.

But anyway, back to the point. Sometimes I think that hyperreliance on the term "sexual orientation" is part of the problem. It's not just who we have sex with, it's who we fall in love with.

Good to see ya Bluebear! :hi:

[ruggerson]

43. Affectional orientation

it's all about whom you are hotwired to fall in love with.

[readmoreoften]

48. Now that's a great term!

Affectional orientation! I'm going to use it from now on. I hate the constant reference to sex. If my partner were disabled and we were unable to ever have "sex" again, I'd be with her forever.

I was so confused as a teenager in the 80s. I literally thought that if I could HAVE sex with men I wasn't a lesbian. Nevermind, who I fell in love with. So I went and had sex with a guy and I didn't really like it, but it wasn't THAT BAD. I mean-- I could do it. I literally thought that maybe my body would reject the penis. Or that I'd run off vomiting. So I kept at it and kept trying and discovered that sometimes it even felt good sexually--you know, like I could close my eyes and ignore the other person. (What a catch for a man, I was!) Sometimes I even really deeply loved the person in a platonic way and felt emotional intimacy. But what I never felt was romantic love. I never dreamt about them constantly or thought about what life would be like in the future. In fact, it was the opposite. Even though I loved them as friends, I felt like a millstone was around my neck!

I've only ever felt that kind of romantic love with women-- butch women in particular. And that was BEFORE I figured out what to do with them sexually.

Affectional orientation. I like it.

[Midlodemocrat]

40. Outstanding post.

Sex isn't the relationship for any of us, whether gay or straight. Sex is a bi-product of the love that we feel for our partner.

Good work. :applause:

[readmoreoften]

42. Thanks midlo :)

good to see ya :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

50. You, too. I read on a different thread that you guys were in NYC.

We get up there fairly often because I have two brothers who live there.


Maybe the next time, we can get together? I kidded my brother who was so proud to put a Kerry sticker on his car (his zip code BTW, 10024) because I was wearing all these major league, in your face anti-Bush shirts and I live in the great red state of VA.

[readmoreoften]

51. I'll be back in late August.

When you're in town give me a PM :)

[foreigncorrespondent]

57. Brava, girl!!!

You have done the DU queers proud with this post. :)

:applause:

[dsc]

58. astonishingly well said

I wish I could nominate a single post. This is the best one I have read in quite some time.

[Bluebear]

64. 'I wish I could nominate a single post.'

indeed!

[Jazz2006]

61. Beautifully said

Kudos to you, readmoreoften.

(even though pitt's half-assed apology is probably more about touting his book to DUers than any actual apology or anything else, your posts on this thread are truly excellent.)

[lukasahero]

63. BRAVO!!!!!!!!!

What a wonderful, honest and revealing post. This is one of the best things I have ever read on DU. Your points can be applied to so many human issues. Thank you.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Fields]

49. A lot of people around here could have plenty to apologize for,

maybe not so much as to the jist of their remarks, but more to the tone in which they were said. Me included. It has been a supercharged atmosphere.

I think we are suffering undue fatigue and stress from five+ years of Bush Syndrome.

[troubleinwinter]

52. When I 'get into it' with someone

I generally address it in the thread or PM the individual. I don't start a whole new vague thread addressing unknown subjects that were "honestly forgotten about".

What theee fuck are you trying to say? Apologizing for specific matters or vague ones? Spit out what the fuck you are talking about, stop bandying about the bush or just do it by PM.

"I said something once upon a time" would sure as shit not get ME much attention here.

WHO. ARE. YOU. ???

[Mr_Spock]

53. I don't want your stinkin' apology.

I never saw the thread anyway :P

[FrenchieCat]

54. Me too! If I said something that ever offended anyone,

Well, I'm sorry!

Really!

[bridgit]

56. i was in that thread today & you're still a good man charlie brown...

:hi:

[dsc]

59. I honestly appreciate the apology

but that said, I wish you had put in this OP exactly what you said. Many of your supporters clearly took this as some gay person badgering you into an unneeded apology. As Readmoreoften pointed out below this wasn't some unneeded apology. Let's be honest here. You wouldn't have said this type of thing about blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or any other minority group. If you had, you wouldn't have people wondering why you needed to apologize. But all of that said, you did apologize. That matters. If I wrote off everyone who ever said hateful things about gays my universe would be small indeed.

You have many admirable qualities. You are a very gifted writer. You must have been a heck of a teacher. But you have a very real Acheles (sp) heel. Your admirable passion sometimes becomes an unadmirable meanspirtedness when you get challenged. I really hope you work on that. People will bait you continually until you solve that very real problem. Someday you may become as famous a spokesperson for the left as Katrina. Can you imagine her, no matter what provocation, saying some of the very mean spirited things you have been goaded into saying here? If she did, can you see her being invited again to speak on TV?

Neither of us suffer fools gladly. The difference is that I don't harbor ambitions to be in a position where I have to suffer them gladly. You have major league talent. I would dearly love to see you on TV defending the next Democratic President or holding him or her to their promises. I would imagine you would love nothing more. Take some of your more flamboyant moments here as a lesson. Passion is great but uncontrolled passion, like any uncontrolled emotion, is destructive.

Your apology is accepted. I wish you well.

[Skittles]

60. hey dsc

you're a good writer yourself - well done :thumbsup:

[dsc]

62. thanks

but I won't be giving up my day job anytime soon to take up writing.

[Bluebear]

65. You write wonderfully.

Every word.

[dsc]

66. Thanks

but as I said to Skittles not gonna give up the day job. Wouldn't be prudent. I am just not in that league.