ABC says most CT. polls use lever machines.

[napi21]

Lever machines will dominate in today's primary, with a smattering of optical scan voting places. And here is a chart, courtesy of the excellent folks at the AP, detailing the timing of the reporting of results on election night in 2004 to use as a guide for tonight. p/b]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TheNote/story?id=156238

My parents voted on lever machines when I was a little kid, and I'm 62 now!

There's no paper trail on them! Why were we never concerned about those machines and we're all so distrustful of the new touch screens?

I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest with this question. It's just that as I read that ABC article I thought about those old machines and that weird noise they made when you hit the button, and I also realized that there's really no way to recount THEM either!

[rpgamerd00d]

1. I was an election observer, lever machines are very secure.

Its virtually impossible to cheat with them. Since they are mechanical, and the numbers are verified before and after voting by multiple individuals, they are basically hack proof.

[Peace Patriot]

2. How do they work? Could you compare them to punchcard machines?

I don't think I've ever seen lever machines. Is there a card? Could placement (wrong placement) affect the count? (EDIT: I mean, as happened in Ohio, ballots with a particular lineup of candidates taken to another venue, so that the votes changed--Kerry votes became Bush votes, via placement.)

Also: Mexico has an insecure paper ballot system COMBINED with centralized electronic tabulation, and that's where the problems lay. Stuffed (or empited) balot boxes, sealed, with false totals reported to central tabulators. Does Connecticut have central electronic tabulation? And if so, is it run on trade secret, proprietary software (and whose, if you know)?

[rpgamerd00d]

5. Lever Machines - Explained (in detail)

First, these machines have basically two "odometers" (like your car odometer).

1: Total votes on machine throughout history - never, ever resets, ever. (like your car's main odometer)
2: Current votes on machine today. Starts at 0. Verified by multiple people prior to election start. (like your car's trip odometer).

Second, the levers are mechanical, small switches about the size of a light switch. The start in the flat, horizontal position. To vote, you swing the lever down.

So, they go from this:

0---

To this:

0
 \
  \
   \

The candidates names are under each lever, and there are tons of levers in broad banks across and down. The only levers that are physically unlocked for the election are the ones with names under them. Also, physical mechanisms PROHIBIT you from selecting multiple levers for a given race. If one is down, the other becomes locked.

To vote, you grab a huge mecahnical arm, and swing it to the right. This closes the booth curtains, and unlocks the machine. You can then switch levers to your hearts delight, up and down, changing your mind, until you are ready to cast your votes. You then crank on the mechanical arm, which casts the votes and opens the curtain.

[Atman]

3. I've been a machine tender and Assistant Registrar of Voters in CT...

There IS a paper trail, inside the machine. Each vote is recorded on a piano-roll of paper, and archived after the results are tabulated. Each machine has THREE redundant counters which must match exactly at every minute of the day. The counters are checked about every 15 minutes and signed off on by the registrar that they all match. It takes a set of duplicate keys on seperate sides of the machine to open it (like the nuclear trigger requiring two people with the correct keys turning them simultaneously). Once you open the back of the machine, it locks out any further voting and the machine must be locked down, sealed and retired, and replaced with a new machine which must be certified and run through a check and test vote before being brought online.

They are very secure. I've tried and tried, but I cannot think of any way one of these machines can be rigged. You can't skim off votes...it is a simple mechanical crank. A flip of the lever will always return the same vote until someone opens the machine and resets the cams. Which cannot be done discreetly.

I just don't see the paper trail being an issue with such machines.

[Junkdrawer]

6. How are precinct results sent to the Counties/State SOS?

There's been concerns that precinct totals can be changed before their added to the statewide totals.

[rpgamerd00d]

7. Not possible to tamper with totals, they are recorded in public.

The news and anyone from the public can enter the room and hear the reading of the totals, which are being read aloud and verified by multiple people (from different factions).

Anyone with paper and a pencil can write them down as they are read, or even tape it.

[Atman]

9. Unless you're in Ohio. Then the laws don't apply.

;)

[Junkdrawer]

11. I was going to say "We've heard that tune before"...

On paper, everything's on the up-and-up - until it isn't.

[Atman]

8. I honestly don't know.

My position has never given me access to "the back room." All I know is that at the end of the evening, the registrars know immediately who "won" on any given machine because that is evident when the machine is opened. I believe the registrar removes the paper rolls and seals them before sending them to be officially tabulated, but I honestly don't know how this is done, or where.

[rpgamerd00d]

12. Ive been present for the totals, they do it like this:

1) Machine is opened by R and D registrars (or, two Dems in the case of primaries, not sure).
2) Each person reads off the totals for each candidate by column/row number, and a recording secretary records and reads back the numbers for verification. Anyone in the public or news media can be there, hearing this process, and recording their own numbers on paper or recording it.
3) Once all the numbers are read off and validated, the machine is locked up again.

After that, not sure where the machines go. But the tally is taken, and thus sent along through official channels at that point. If the tally is altered, anyone in the room at the time can tell, because they have the real tally recorded.

[Junkdrawer]

13. Does the state post precinct results?

:shrug:

[rpgamerd00d]

14. That I'm not sure of. -nt

[Junkdrawer]

15. If they don't (big IF), how would anyone know if the totals were changed?

:shrug:

[rpgamerd00d]

16. All election data is public information

You can always request it. And if you ask me, people should organize groups that do that every election, and then publish it on the internet.

[Junkdrawer]

17. Hopefully, Lamont supporters are watching...n/t

[rpgamerd00d]

20. Results are here:

http://www.statementofvote-sots.ct.gov/StatementOfVote/WebModules/ReportsLink/USSenTownView.aspx?Parameter=08/08/2006-Primary

[LoZoccolo]

4. This is funny because people were protesting the loss of them in NY.

I think they got rid of them in the 2004 election, and as you and I know, they are pretty much the original black box voting machine. The Diebold ones require you to rewrite the source code or open up the database to tamper with the election results, but the lever machines just require you to jam a toothpick or something in the gear to keep it from turning and incrementing the count. But like, all these people were like "bring back the levers", showing me once again that on the Internet, a person can feel like an activist while not actually being one (because that would require them to know what they are talking about).

[akushuki]

18. I'm pretty sure I used a mechanical one in the most recent election in NY

I voted 'yes' on the school budget.

Perhaps I voted on a newer machine?

[HockeyMom]

19. We had them in 2004

and we will have them again in 2006. New York State is in non compliance with the Fed Regulations. The deadline passed and NYS is being sued. I don't know if Connecticut is in similar circumstances.

I have voted on lever machines for 30 years. Only ONCE in all that time did I ever have a problem. After I had pulled my levers, I went to push the big arm back to record my vote and open the curtain. Well, the arm would not go back and the curtain would not open. I crawled out from under the curtain and got the poll worker. They shut down that machine, put yellow tape around it, posted two police officers in front and back of it, and I voted again on another machine. They impound the entire machine, not just the "workings", onto an armed truck.

Perhaps, this the fail safe mechanism? If a "toothpick" is placed in the mechanism, the arm won't go down? As in my situation, you KNOW something is wrong. The only thing I can say, is that everyone at this polling place took this VERY SERIOUSLY.

For what it is worth, this happened not that long ago -- when I voted for Hillary.

[Peace Patriot]

21. You make it sound difficult to re-write Diebold source code. It's not.

All it takes is a couple of lines of self-erasing code, and one insider hacker. Diebold MANUFACTURES the machines, and does the servicing and upgrades. WE never get to see this code--not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it. A third of the machines nationwide have NO paper trail at all (touchscreens). Others (optiscans) have a paper ballot that gets dumped into a box-- thus separating the vote from the evidence of the vote--and the actuall ballot is almost never seen again. Recounts are extremely rare. Many states have NO audits; others have very inadequate and manipulable audits.

Made to order for fraud.

Read the descriptions of lever machines above (rpgamerd00d, atman) and below (Hockey Mom). If there is something blocking your vote, you know it. The lever won't go down. It's a mechanical device. Problems are obvious. There is a mechanical counter for the number of voters. And these machines have been used in states for years and years--with no suspicions of machine fraud that I've ever heard about. The RESULTS have clearly been generally in line with expectations (pre-election polls, for instance), and, very important, have long term voter trust. The only part of the system that seems fiddable to me is the paper tape of proceedings that is removed and stored. But if the results are announced immediately, taken from the machine recordings, that would greatly lessen any possibility that the tapes could be altered.

I can see why NY is hanging onto this system. Sometimes it serves to be CONSERVATIVE and to do things the way they have always been done, because it's always worked well.

Trade secret code is a RADICAL change--and one with a no-brainer, INHERENT flaw. That it's SECRET!

--------------------------

Many thanks to rpgamerd00d, atman and Hockey Mom for enlightenment about the lever machines. Do you know if electronics are involved at the point of centralized tabulation? Do people actually attend to the machine results announcement (write down the results and compare to electronically tabulated totals)?

[Nutmegger]

10. Uh better thand DIEbold. [nt]