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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:12 AM
Original message
Is Torture Effective?
Or is that important?

It seems like the bulk of the Torture debate is taken up by the morality of torture, not it's effectiveness. Which is a shame, because one of the things that makes Torture so immoral is that it's ineffective at information gathering. TOrture is very good at getting people to tell you what you want to hear. If you want a suspect to confess and don't care if he's actually guilty or not, Torture works. On the other hand in information gathering, that very desire to tell you what you want to hear makes it's utility for information gathering weak.

I was thinking about this in relation to 24, which, while being an enjoyable and exciting show, is also strongly pro-Torture. In the 24 universe, torture always works. I'd like just once for them to torture someone and have them give BS information. Then we could see all the agents standing around saying "Is this the right place? Jack there's nothing here." "Well look around, there must be something." "We're looking but . . . hey what's that flash of light in the distance."

Doesn't seem like they are going to do that story though.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Only if you torture lots of people
Edited on Tue Aug-08-06 08:18 AM by kenny blankenship
and once you start torturing one or two, there is a natural tendency to do it to more and more "subjects" since the wider a net you cast the more you'll be able to cross check what torture subjects are telling you. Torture should always be kept illegal therefore because any regime that indulges in it will soon betray any "higher justifying cause" that would have allowed or excused torture in extraordinary cases. (This doesn't mean torture will never happen, it will just limit its application by exposing the torturer to risk.)
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, I concur that TORTURE works to get the subject to TALK
However, what will come out of their mouths will be information that "they believe" you want to hear. That's not guaranteeing the interrogator the truth, only a vocal response out of desperation for you to stop the torture.

I think that we would all concur that there's NO time sensitive information to be gleaned at GITMO. I wish that the interrogators would have been more humane because, at this point, true Psychological Operations could be applied to befriend the detainees, and just perhaps, glean important mechanisms of how their units operate. That is, given the detainee is actually a bud of Osama bin Forgotten.

The pro-torture right wingers just love to give "the ticking time bomb" example. That is rarely the situation. Once you cross the line from interrogation into torture, WHAT EXACTLY you are guaranteeing that any "acquaintance or friendly exchanges" between you and the detainee in the future will NOT DEVELOP to Fruition.

Once you torture, or even humiliate a subject, you have earned an ENEMY for life. :(
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. The ticking bomb scenario ought to be a joke
Obviously in that case, the interrogation subject is holding all the cards. They know they only have to hold out a short while and that you can't kill them. Their self-worth, which is usually a primary target of the interrogator, will be affirmed not just by the successful execution of the plot whatever it is, but by their personal resistance to torture. By holding out for what will be either a known duration (the ticking bomb has already been set to explode) or at least a short indefinite time (the plot is underway) the tortured subject gets to "win the war" practically single-handedly. The interrogator's chances against that subject are nearly zero.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. yeah, I always laugh at that argument. There is zero motivation for the
victim to give accurate information.

Because not doing so guarantees revenge against the very people torturing them, with absolutely no risk to himself or his side.


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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Oh but can we not sense the RISE in Testosterone ...
that musky manly aura when some chicken-hawk MorAn like O'Reily or Beck start talking tough and strutting around like Bantee roosters. I should be disgusted, but instead, I point and (a deep diaphragmatic, big time) BELLY Laugh at my TV screen and say, "What a Moron! Oh stop Bill, you're turning me on!" :puke:
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. well, I have testosterone and am very vocal against torture.
not sure I agree with the implication. Just as not all men are rapists, neither are all men torturers.

:shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Oh please, it was a quip ... Men like O'Reilly can not
Edited on Tue Aug-08-06 08:53 AM by ShortnFiery
control their testosterone (connecting aggression with sexual arousal). I'm not dissing anyONE poster here. I have tons of androgens (female version of testosterone) yet I don't want to harm anyone either. :hi:
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. That ticking time bomb scenario that repubs
always use is so bogus. What if the victim of the torture decides to give you wrong information? You go check it out, the bomb explodes anyway. So you go back and torture him so more for the fun of it. We know that's why they do it. Because in their sick world, it is fun to torture your enemies.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think it's more about control than anything
I would think the people telling others to torture know it doesn't work in the intelligence aspect. I think it has more to do with finding out how the body and mind work.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. unfortunately, it's not that simple. torture is VERY effective.
at what, exactly, that's the questions.

oh, sure, it's quite useless on the person you're actually torturing.

but they're just the EXAMPLES of torture that the evil empire holds up to everyone else.

so the real question is, what does it accomplish to have it be KNOWN that "WE TORTURE":
does the threat of torture lead others to talk first, lest they be tortured?
does the threat of torture lead others to abandon the fight against us?
does the threat of torture lead others to cooperate with us and betray their co-conspirators?
or does the threat of torture make our enemies more violent and less cooperative, since getting captured hold no appeal?

THAT'S where the real debate lies.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. That FEAR - mongering reputation may work on
Edited on Tue Aug-08-06 08:34 AM by ShortnFiery
underage teenagers busted for drinking, but hardened fighters of the ME who have known Killing and Dying via violence their ENTIRE lives. No, it's not a good reputation, especially of the World's Super Power.

We (The USA's Actions) set the moral and legal tone.

I suggest that we go back to being as much as an honest broker as possible.

What we (and our best buds Israel) are doing now is only increasing instability and terrorism in the Middle East.

No, I don't have the answers save for they are NOT Military in nature. The Answers can only achieved through honesty, genuine compromise and negotiations by ALL INVOLVED PARTIES. :shrug:
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. Ask the Inquisitors...
they got lots of people to "confess" to some amazing bullshit. I don't think they got much truth, but they got a lot of "confessions" and killed a few here and there while they were at it.

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. The relevant example would be the Nazis--they were effective torturers
as torturers go. You can believe that the U.S. military has studied their techniques and findings with great interest. Inquisitors General only wanted confessions to fantastic made up crap in the first place (religious subjects like heresy and witchcraft).
The Nazis however got some very principled, courageous and dedicated people captured from the resistance movements of various countries to give true and highly damaging information that led to the arrest and execution of other Resistance fighters, group leaders, and even lovers and family members.
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The Inquisitors also had people admitting to heresy and
naming names of a few of their friends, lovers and family. It wasn't all about phantoms and spirits. Heresy was not just some religious stuff during the day. The only equivalent I can think of right this second, would be admitting to participating in treasonist acts against the state; heresy was treason against The Church; as powerful, or in some cases, more powerful than the state.



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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. The Inquisitor's object was confession before execution
(so the subject could be absolved before death) however, the military torturer in a theater of war wants information. The confession of the Inquisition subject can't be checked against anything--and most of the time the accusation that brought the subject to the Inquisition was based on nothing real in the first place; by contrast, the information that a terror/resistance suspect knows can be checked. It follows the model of a police interrogation instead of an examination of the penitent's conscience. Information derived from police questioning methods can be checked against the information given by other torture subjects for example who are suspected or known to be involved in the same things. If a Maquis cell leader confessed to his Gestapo interrogator that he crawled backwards across a floor to kiss Satan's anus in a witch's initiation ceremony and Black Mass, that might be called detail, but it's not information about the real world that can be checked out. If you invent narratives, while under torture, about a Black Mass at which the Devil presides or is invoked in absentia, no crazy hallucinatory details you might make up can "sound wrong" to your torturers, or contradict what they know to be true about the time, place, the names of persons and demons involved, or the manner of worship, since the subject is purely imaginary and under the rules of evidence for witchcraft trials, one person can be in two places at the same time. That is to say, normal earthly logic that would falsify certain statements as unlikely or impossible, or verify statements as possibly true is not in use by either the tortured or the torturer. Your confession will be accepted even though the whole thing is made up from start to finish, and the torture will stop (it may end in the sweet release of death but it will end). If you just make crazy/incorrect stuff up to tell the Gestapo or the CIA it will "sound wrong", and it may contradict known facts, and the torture will go on and on. Unlike a Witches Sabbath where the whole concept is imaginary, there are real details to be known about a resistance cell--it's acts of violence and composition. Instead of supplying or suggesting the particulars to be confirmed, as an Inquisitor would do, the police interrogator who knows the subject is lying on some key point keeps applying torture until the subject spontaneously corrects the known-false information. As I once read of modern day witchcraft trials in Africa, the goal of the witchhunters is not investigate or punish some specific crime(s), but simply to affirm the continued existence of the world of spirits and demons. Every confession is held good. By contrast the secret police interrogator using torture knows that most interrogations will be shot through from beginning to end with false information. When the lies told by one subject begin to comport well with known facts, or when the lies told by related subjects under interrogation begin to converge, then the torturer knows he's finally on the trail to new and verifiable information. The imaginary nature, as I indicated, of the whole enterprise of religion marks the rules of evidence used by witchhunters/Inquisitors, as well as the goal of their interrogations, and in consequence one sees the "leniency" of their policy towards accepting confessions. Confessions of witchcraft are never turned down as faked or unacceptable.

The French applied Nazi techniques in Algeria (techniques that had been used on them during the occupation) and broke the FLN resistance organization in Algiers (see Pontocorvo's Le Combat d'Algers). Pentagon staff have screened this film to adjust themselves to the scenery and concepts of torture and occupation wars fought against "terrorist" resistance groups.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. Torture only benefits the sadistic tendencies of the torturers
They are the only ones who reliably benefit. Intelligence garnered is unreliable, because the victim will say anything at all they think the torturer wants to hear to end the torment.
Hell, I'd admit to having an affair with Coulter if I was tortured long enough. That doesn't make it accurate information.

However, the people torturing get their jollies, and after a while, that takes on a life of itself and torture for torture's sake becomes the standard. Its a lesson we should have learned from Nuremburg, but sadly, we didn't.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. Peter the Great tortured 1700 Streltsy and got nothing.
I'm reading a biography of Peter the Great. The Streltsy, a sort of Praetorian Guard, mutinied. After a battle, he captured over 1700 of them. He tortured them all seeking information about "ring leaders" and "conspirators". The torture was as barbarous and savage as can be imagined. The majority refused to talk despite whippings, knoutings, burnings, racking, dismemberment, etc. The handful who did talk were found to be those who would say anything required to stop the agony and the information was either false or useless.

Almost all of the Streltsy were executed by hanging or beheading and their bodies were hung all over the Kremlin walls for months.

However, it did "work" in keeping the populace subdued.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. Hey anyone who believes torture works
believes all those people hanged in Salem were really witches.

on note: Even that unindicted war criminal Oliver North says torture doesn't work.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. Torture is really about showing people who has the power. . .
who is the boss.

It is ineffective as a means of obtaining information.

There's an axiom: Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Very Well Put. :-)
I don't know about the rest of you, but I going to tell my torturers up front that "waving the loaded gun around" makes it 100% clear to me WHO EXACTLY is in charge of the situation. :P
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. here is a paper on it
A Consequentialist Argument against Torture Interrogation of Terrorists - Jean Maria Arrigo, Ph.D.

http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE03/Arrigo03.html
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. It's REALLY effective....at PISSING PEOPLE OFF and hardening resentment...
....and creating generations' worth of hatred and opposition.

It's really excellent for that.

I don't know anything else it works for.

enlighteningly,
Bright
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