American visits his outsourced job in India

[Ino]

I just watched a very interesting episode of the "30 Days" series on FX. American man who had his call center job outsourced to India, stays with an Indian family and works at a call center there for a month. He said his lost job is supporting about 16 Indians. One Indian said he just figured the Americans get another job - he didn't realize so many were unemployed.

The wife was studying to get a call center job, but her husband wanted her to stay home like his mother did. He was upset she had failed to bring him some tea. (Get your own friggin tea, I say!)

A riot broke out when a popular actor died, and the American companies lost like $40 million because of it.

Do try to catch this program if it re-runs!

This Wednesday's episode features an atheist living with a fundamentalist family for a month. The preview looked good.

[China_cat]

1. Would have been better if they'd put

a fundamentalist in an atheist family. Most atheists know more about the religion than the fundies do.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. they are doing the opposite of that this season

i believe. Putting an atheist into a fundie family...seem to recall seeing that in an ad for the upcoming season.

sP

[liberalmike27]

39. Another Thinly Veiled

attempt at altering the perception of Americans toward globalization. The show makes light of a very serious issue in America, though I've only seen commercials, it looks like they are attempting to make it funny, and minimize the seriousness of this issue.

While most of both parties support globalization, most Americans would like more of an effort to keep these jobs in America. Even so, there is actually a tax break for companies here, who want to move their jobs to other countries. That is total insanity in my book.

How sad it is that these politicians are so wrapped up in corporate contributions that they are doing their bidding, rather than "protect" the American people with protectionism. Increasingly, as good jobs leave and are replaced with painting, mowing, and flipping burgers, or working the register at Walmart, the clearing house for products that we once made, and are now made in other countries, we will need to ever widen social programs as American pensions, health care, insurance, and even basic rent and utilities are impossible to meet.

All I see is people here with less jobs, and lower salaries, while it seems prices are just going up, up, up...Well, I guess that will give Bush plenty of young Americans to fight the possible WWIII that seems to be looming on the time horizon.

[ERF]

2. Unemployment benefits or a job at McDonalds

Would still give this man a better life materially than his Indian counterpart.

Anyone with some basic knowledge of economics would understand that outsourcing is good for both socities. Sure, individuals are hurt. That is why retraining and education programs are needed. The problem is the safety net has too many holes. Protecting jobs just means fewer jobs for everyone in the long-term. Look at French unemployment.

[flobee1]

4. That is why retraining and education programs are needed.

So why does george cut the help available for it.

How can one afford retraining while working at macdonalds?
And why do we have to make life better for India, shouldn't the Indian gov.be doing that?



Its nothing but corporate profit that you or I will never see a dime of


Look at French unemployment.
Then look at the french riots

[ERF]

6. Do you have any answers or are you just interested in complaining?

Because it sounds like you have a litany of things to complain about rather than solutions to offer.
Additionally, there seems to be a bit of dissonance in your answers, unless what you are actually trying to imply is that you agree with me. Which is just fine and would make me consider you a very intelligent individual.

[Little Star]

30. If someone complains

about having a cold do they have to have a solution in order for their complaint to be valid. None of us have all the answers and that does not make the complaint any less valid. I sorta look at those complaints as a way to help people see the problems and start brainstorming. That old 'you have no solutions just reeks of arrogance. Just sayin'

[datasuspect]

71. that old "you have no solutions" reeks of a rw talking point

vomit

[liberalmike27]

44. And

Retraining for what? You can retrain all you want, but you'll still end up mowing, painting, wallpapering, delivering mail, or working at Wal-Mart. If the jobs aren't there, then retraining is nothing but an exericise in futility.

As long as our system is based on legalized bribery of our supposed representation, then they will be slaves who will bow down to the corporate God of Mammon. Election reform is, and always will be, the most important issue. We need publicly financed campaign, and free air time for candidates, and if people are allowed to contribute, it should be reduced to an amount small enough so all could manage, like $100 for each campaign. But that too, is just another pipe-dream that would once-again make America great, and our Congressional leaders serve us instead of the huge entities they now serve.

[mikeyj84]

5. Economics

Whos economic poliocies do you follow, the economics of corporate greed? The bottom line is all that corporate america knows!

[ERF]

10. The bottom line is all corporate America knows is absolutely correct

If you have ever looked at the facts and figures that make up that bottom line you will see that different things are given different values.

A fairly new phenomenon is that things "intagibles" are now also incldued. This is part of "brand value".

At present a great number of people (including myself) are working to also including environmental and social factors as part of those intangibles. Actually we are working to put values on them, but that is very difficult, but not impossible.

Some companies already see the movement and are making progress, others are not. That is where intelligent regulation comes in.

Also realize that it is not just corporate America. There are no companies anywhere that do anything other than pursue profit.

[annabanana]

7. umm...

retraining and education programs for which jobs, exactly?

Should we aspire to having as many homeless and starving as India?

just askin'

[ERF]

11. Is it really that hard to find a job in the United States?

The facts and figures do not appear to indicate that there is mass unemployment. It isn't great, but it has been and could be much worse.

[fasttense]

17. What facts and figures are you using?

Because if you are relying on the government to provide those figures you can bet they are rigged. There is mass underemployment and unemployment but the government hides it the way they hide the inflation rate.

You need to get out in the real world and look around. Do you see homeless families? Do you see people with advanced degrees working at menial jobs? Do you see people taking two and three menial jobs in order to provide for their families? It is everywhere. These are only the symptoms of an insolvent country.

[ERF]

21. In a large nation you can probably find both

I generally rely on the figures published by The Economist and The Financial Times. Two highly respectable, non-partisian, non-American sources.

Since I am in Germany, I also rely on what my friends and family tell me.

They struggle, but no more than expected. Some are dong great, others so-so.

In a nation of 300 million people with a $12+ trillion economy, "getting out and looking aroung" is like the tale of the 3 blind men and the elephant.

There are huge systematic problems that need to be addressed which aren't and there are large regions of suffering and poverty. But the US is still the world's richest country, it just happens to be the one with oneof the worst distributions of wealth.

[demnan]

27. IT Jobs in this country that are left

continue to decrease in wages. I'm a web programmer and I have more skill, but make 25,000 less in dollars than I did two years ago. I had to change jobs and that is how the market is. I'm not the only one and I count myself lucky it wasn't more. On the other hand, other expenses in this country continue to go up, such as housing, taxes, etc. And health care for many is a major expense. I have two brothers who have no health insurance whatsoever and they are in the mid-fifties to 60 year range. I barely make it paycheck to paycheck any more but at least I have health insurance.

[liberalmike27]

47. I can agree with that

We do have one of the worst distributions' of wealth.

By the way, advocating globalization with other countries with massive unemployment, and idle populations who work for less, and also have massive wealth disparities will only worsen this problem we have. George Soros has recommended only trading with countries in like situations, like Germany with the US, and perhaps the South American countries with African countries.

Certainly we, nor Germany, can ever compete with microsalaries. And by the way those magazines are certainly catered to the stock ownership class, and the top ten percent own about 87% of all stock. The lower 50% own almost no stock, and in addition to losing their jobs, they can't afford to buy stock, and will more likely be the ones who lose their jobs. It is lose, lose for the poor, and win, win for the richest.

By the way, our wealth disparity is now greater than just before the Great Depression in 1929. Certainly the fact that so much of the wealth of our country was in the hands of so few people was one of the causes of the depression, though that is always downplayed. Simple really; less people with money to spend, and masses with no money to spend spells doom, dystopia, and disaster to an economy. It then steamrolls, jobs are lost, and the situation worsens.

About the only thing that will rescue us then is another World War, wait,...have we found the devious plot!!!!! I couldn't resist that, but one wonders if Bush isn't manufacturing this so we can have plenty of poor suckers to fight his global war on Arabs. After all, Arabs are the new Jews, the hated ones, the ones discriminated against, and being attacked full-on by all media outlets. Sounds familiar; now where has that happened before? Oh yea, Germany in the 30's. What happened then?

[Sadie5]

26. I disagree with you

Mass unemployment? I guess not if you are counting all of those low paying fast food jobs. Corporations are sending our work to India, what is the Indian government doing besides sitting on their butts and cozying up to Bush? The Corporations are doing away with health care and pensions, not to mention slashing wages nearly in half. Take GM for instance, they are doing the buyouts. To fill positions that the buyout will create they are hiring contract workers at less than half what they paid the union workers. They have no benefits, pension nor much of anything else except the $10 per hour job they desperately need. This will kill two birds with one stone as they want to abolish the unions too. They will like what you have to say over at the freeper board, but you are not making much of an impression on me.

[knitter4democracy]

37. It depends on your area.

For example, where I live in Michigan, it's darn difficult to find a job with a living wage. Employment here is higher than the nation's average, and good, hard-working people are hurting.

You say you're in Germany. That might explain why you have trouble understanding some things. First of all, you have a national health care plan. We don't--it's employment based. Secondly, you have industry there. More and more of our factories are shutting down for good and moving to other countries without unions and living wages. We've lost literally thousands of jobs in just the last few years in this area, and it shows in how many need food from churches and the food bank.

[ERF]

40. I live in Germany, but

Certainly understand the United States having been born and raised there.

To be honest, the German system works pretty darn well except for the labor market.

The 10% unemployment here, however, is mostly a result of the legacy of incoroprating the East. But, there are simply too many benefits and loopholes for people to be lazy. People work on the "black" market and still receive their unemployment benefits. They are offered jobs and retraining and they actually say "no".

There is current legislation to allow a person to decline a job or retraining "only" 3 times before their benefits (which are permanent) are cut. And we are just talking about cash handouts and not all of them, just some of them.

Anyway, the healthcare issue is probably the #1 difference. The US is the only industrialized country in the world without universal healthcare. It also spends the most per person and its people are less healthy than nearly every other industrialized country. With those facts it makes it far and away the world's worst system.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Germany has its issues, sure, but it's better off in most numbers.

That ten percent unemployment is probably what ours is. Many economists put our real unemployment around 9-12%. There was a post on DU about that a couple of weeks ago.

[ERF]

48. Perhaps you are right given the number of inmates and those

employed looking after them as well as the underemployed.

Also, some states in Germany, Bavaria and Hesse for instance, have very low unemployment between 4% and 6%. Germany is also the world's largest exporter and the US the largest importer, so Germany relies on America a bit for that.

Also, Germany spends less than 2% of GDP on the military and "only" 12.5% on healthcare compared to the 15,5%+ in the US.

Germany's biggest problems, according to those living here are the labour market, healthcare costs, the demographic time bomb and immigration (obviously linked).

They just passed a law that gives mothers 67% of their previous salary (up to €1800/month) for the first 12 months after they give birth. 2005 was saw the least number of Germans born since 1945 so they have to do something.

[liberalmike27]

52. Certainly right there

Japan, South Korea, Japan, and Germany all serve as propaganda examples of how great Democracy is, yet without American markets they' be far worse off. Japan is a particular example of a country who has terrible trade laws that benefit them, and hurt us, but certainly that is nearly universal. My main point is that those we defeat are certainly benefiting by our market.

[ERF]

54. Agreed on Japan, but the German market is not restrictive

The Germans are just good at making stuff (with added value) that other people want to buy.

It has been like that for a very, very long time. Even before Germany was actually a country. This was rather necessary because Germany wasn't able to produce enough food for its inhabitants, so they had to be able to make something to sell others in exchange.

[knitter4democracy]

68. I'll agree with that. They make great yarns.

Our mills traditionally have made good, standard yarns for handknitting. That's changing now with the mini-mills and all, but it's still true for the majority of American yarns sold here. German yarns, on the other hand . . . *sigh* Now, that's good stuff. Only the Italians can give them a run for their money on the good stuff with Australia a close second.

[ERF]

69. Certainly. Yarns, machine tools and cars.

In fact, that is the order in which Germany lists is main exports.

Seriously, "Made in Germany" has been a sign of quality since the first era of globalization.

[raccoon]

51. The short answer to your question: Hell, yes. For most people. nt

[w4rma]

12. Retraining for unemployment benefits or a job at McDonalds, obviously.(nt)

[JHB]

8. "anyone with a basic understanding of economics"...

Don't you just love it when someone waves "basic economics" around like it was Newtonian Physics to declare a debatable item "self-evident".

[ERF]

14. Can you offer a rebutle to the economic argument for outsourcing?

Also, if you have zero economics training, it takes more than a few paragraphs to explain it.

What do you not understand, maybe I can help.

[TahitiNut]

59. "rebutle"? Oh ... you mean a rebuttal?

When one views "economics" from an ownership point of view, where human labor is regarded as a commodity, then a persuasive argument can be made for slavery. Indeed, that "persuasive argument" (founded in "basic economics," of course) is much of why slavery wasn't abolished in the U.S. fifty years earlier, as the founders foresaw.

The overriding social and humanitarian purpose of all productive enterprise is the equitable economic enfranchisement of the people in a nation (a unit of self-governance), sharing equitably in the fruits of that nation. Stated another way, enterprise is first and foremost the cooperative labors of a nation and "economics" is the dismal science (since there is no morality in it) whereby we examine that activity. When profit (for owners) becomes the sole determinant of 'good,' we have institutionalized the Love of Money, and subordinated human labor (and humanity itself) to a disposable commodity.

When, however, the marginal increase in the 'welfare' of the landlord/owner weighs more heavily than the survival (suffering, disease, privation, and death) of the serfs, slaves, and sharecroppers, we become a Banana Republic oppressed by Banana Republicans.

[liberalmike27]

61. GET

Ben Stein and Robert Rubin in the same room and see if they agree.

[HughBeaumont]

9. Ha ha, I'll handle this one, ladies and gentlemen . . .

The ol' "You're either FOR free trade or FOR protectionism, it's JUST THAT SIMPLE!" argument is hilarious. We should be celebrating the growth of one middle class at the expense of another? Your assertions are both theoretic and unproven in reality.

"Basic Economics", "Economics 101" is a total COP OUT and an RNC talking point. Economic theories often serve the wealthy at the behest of the little guy, and even moreso now. Joe Sixpack doesn't have a nano/bio/whatever-tech lab in his garage to create the next HP or Microsoft as he did in the 80s - new business creation/funding takes a hell of a lot more hoops to jump through, and relies a lot more on technology, funding and tools as opposed to guile and determination.

"Re-train", the freep-traders all say. To quote a line from Ed Wood: "It's horseshit, Eddie". Say you get laid off of a career and have to go and re-train for a new one. What are you going to pick that can't be offshored/inshored? Do you got a few years to put your life on hold while you GET this training, as in enough cash to pay the bills, put food on the table and a roof overhead? And how can you predict that the career you choose won't be following it's predecessor overseas? Indians and Chinese have access to the same universities we have. They can get the same degrees we have and they will always, always ALWAYS be cheaper.

Do you seriously expect the corporations and the "I got mine" elite that run them to all of a damn sudden become benevolent, stop masturbating to pictures of bank vaults and start building plants and hiring HERE and start filling up those vacant downtown offices anytime soon?

Also, America doesn't NEED 130 million nanotechnologists or business owners. What do we do for the people who just aren't MEANT for college? Do they not deserve a better living than "Hi, welcome to fucking Wal Mart?"

What do you say to people like my cousin, who works at Packard (who's hand in hand with GM, I believe) and after August he has to take a buyout, which will last him only so long, or risk getting laid off for good because the plant will close? He has nothing other than a high school diploma. It's naive to think that at 35, he and his SO can just go to community college and start over. What would they do? Where would they get the money, go into more debt? Where would the experience come from?

They didn't used to have to worry about this sort of thing before. It used to be that we were able to gainfully employ people who aren't meant for college; these people were our industrial and manufacturing base and they built the quality products we used and bought. A strong economy should be capable of employing EVERYone at a fair wage regardless of education level, and when you cannot do that, all the talking points in the world aint'a gonna mask the reality that you do NOT have any such economy on your watch.

It's no longer enough for businesses to make a profit. Their business plan, long term and short term, only includes one group of people and one philosophy - the Upper Echelon and what can be done to make them HAPPY. Workers and their concerns are no longer addressed or cared for; having been reduced to mere moving obstacles, a means to an end, not location sensitive and certainly advantageous to be as cheap as humanly possible.

The topic of job offshoring is a particularly sensitive one to me. I stick people on ignore for two reasons - unwarranted flaming and support of this crapola, anti-worker practice. I've seen too many lives, families and professions ruined (particularly my father's and co-workers') to even consider any other part of this issue, and it's only going to get worse as corporations continue to strangle everyone for their needs. I can't believe that there are so-called progressives who buy into this mantra of "a rising tide lifts all boats" and play the "xenophobia" card from the bottom of the deck when you disagree with this short-term pillaging. This isn't about hatred of anyone; Indians are simply embracing the opportunity given to them by our companies. It's not about "exploring emerging markets", it's about dumping the American middle class for cheaper, exploitable labor.

About the "competition" ruse: It's not competition when Indian workers are always going to be cheaper. It's not competition when you're giving them the R&D future that we should be getting our hands on. It's not competition because we don't MAKE anything HERE anymore. It's not competition because they're already getting the jump on sciences such as nano- and Bio-technology while were trying to destroy science to believe a story and appease a bunch of toupeed wackjobs with crosses. It's not competition when you enable corporations to displace thousands of American workers either by offshoring or inshoring via tax breaks and loopholes. It's not competition when you have nothing on the near or far horizon to replace the outgoing jobs.

What it IS, however, is the destruction of the American middle class, exactly as the well-monied Robber Baron Republican'ts want it. Offshoring helps NO one but the rich and drives down wages in every job they can ship over or bring here. "Everyone in their station and have the good sense to STAY there." A fearful, low paid, divided and powerless middle class is an OBEDIENT middle class.

Companies aren't even addressing the issue or treating it as serious, nor is anyone in our government or corporations providing the much-needed assistance for fired workers to re-assimilate back in the work force. It's just slash and "good luck" while the suits buy another yacht, and the number of white-collar professions immune from this practice is dwindling every year. Yap yap about "lower prices", but have the prices REALLY gone down on anything that's made with quality? I haven't noticed it. There are several things I would like to have but can't because I simply cannot afford them. The American worker keeps way less than ever because everything costs more, and the quality of our lives have plunged thanks to longer hours and fear. How good do we really have it when it's accepted practice to assume the new MINIMUM retirement age is 65?

Witness the distribution of Linux laptops to Third World countries via the OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) initiative. First off, why aren't these companies offering OUR children this luxury? Oh that's right, because since it costs way too damned much to live here, the American worker has too high an asking price. They're creating the next wave of offshore beneficiaries now and they're not fooling ANYone.

Come to Northeast Ohio and the ghost-towns that litter it sometime and look at the cost. Go to any of the small towns in America that used to thrive, but now have boarded up weed-infested everything. Look at all the vacant office space in most mid-market cities and tell me how "progressive" it is that this dickhead presidope and the corporations he enables care more about the events and markets of countries that start with an "I" than they do our own.

When an economist can come up with a benevolent model that truly lifts ALL boats, then I'll start listening and believing them. Until then, I just see them as puppet defenders of the Republican agenda who's sole M.O. is to drown the middle class in favor of a low-paid and forever fearful populace that the elites are "destined" to rule over.

[ERF]

15. That was passionate and interesting

What are your recommendations for solutions that don't themselves cause greater unemployment and suffering?

Which model do you suggest? What policies should be enacted?

[DiverDave]

19. Did you read the same thing I did?

How can you even ASK those questions?

How about the model of getting the workers in the U.S. BACK TO WORK??

How about a policy of jail for mega rich assholes that offshore jobs, for THEIR GAIN??

Don't you realize that tax bases ALL OVER the country are suffering so that a few can "Get Theirs?"

I find your questions insulting.

One last question for YOU, how has the current policy affected YOU?, Your family? your community?

I'm VERY interested in hearing YOUR answers to those questions...

And Hugh, I'm gonna save that piece, that is some of the best written stuff I've ever seen here, BRAVO!

[HughBeaumont]

20. First of all . .

The indignity of training your replacement as a requirement for severance should be made illegal. This isn't "knowledge transfer", it's corporate nose-rubbing, demoralizing and pointless frat-boy-esque hazing horseshit.

Secondly, it isn't as black and white as simply passing a law to stop it. Several measures need to take place not only in government, but in education and the business world as well.

First, American companies have to concede that outsourcing indeed represents a problem for the worker. Simply brushing aside the argument as "you're either free-trade or protectionist. It's THAT SIMPLE" is foolish: offshoring has clear winners and losers that need to be defined not based on hypothetics and theory (which is how everyone is doing it now), but reality.

Next, the US government needs to begin to measure the magnitude of the problem. Currently, no one really knows how many jobs have actually been offshored because corporations either refuse to report it, period, or announce proposed offshoring at a later date after the cuts happen, which means either more or less jobs will be leaving.

US visa policies should also be reviewed with an eye toward protecting America’s labor market. Too many corporations exercise loopholes to get around the current Visa restrictions, particularly regarding L-1s. Visa abuse is rampant within many corporations in the race for cheaper labor here and abroad.

Meanwhile, the US should put more effort into helping and retraining workers displaced by offshoring. Our country has an atrocious record when it comes to redeployment of US workers at a comparable salary and skill set. We don't give near enough help that is needed for the cruelly downsized, and this especially holds true for blue collar workers. The worker has to completely fend for his or herself once fired, and this usually means developing a skill set for which they aren't fit or able to afford training for. Unemployment insurance is painfully inadequate. We spend billions on pork, corporate welfare and oil wars yet we shit on the very people and resources that makes the nation work.

Asking the worker to figure out for themselves what the "next big thing" will be and get training for it is so patently absurd, as is the "re-training" canard. The average person doesn't know what's going to happen a YEAR, let alone five to TEN years, down the road. Progress does NOT have to be akin to bloodletting.

What I'm saying is that there should be far less emphasis by business leaders to adopt the destructive and short-term way of thought. Just because it's "good business" doesn't make it "right".

From Outsourcing America's authors:

"As for the offshoring of government work, while falling short of calling for a prohibition, the writers point out that public agencies need to be more judicious in striving to keep taxpayer-supported jobs in the states. "We should recognize the enormous value of keeping certain types of government procurement onshore, especially in a time when we are far from full employment. In terms of high technology, creating strong preferences for American workers not only is in the national interest but is in the interests of national security."

In the long term, the writers feel that tomorrow’s workers need to be trained to have lifelong marketable skills. "If, indeed, our young people are facing a future in which they will have five careers rather than five jobs within one career, then adaptability is the desirable attribute for students." That means developing transferable skills that can be applicable to a new career, whatever it might be. "

One Free-Trade apologist lamented "People, we HAVE BRAINS." Doesn't mean a hill of beans if you ain't got the capital or resources in which to use them.

[Bridget Burke]

22. What sort of retraining would you recommend?

Be specific, now.

[ERF]

28. I can be only as specific as this general discussion allows

Obviously the question begins as to the level of education the person we are talking about already possesses.

Thereafter the question of whether they are willing to move or not.

If not, it will depend on locally available opportunities. What jobs are being advertised? What industry is growing? What might the individual wish to do?

Retraining should be as flexible as possible and based upon individual needs and circumstances. If it means a grant/loan combination to attend a community college or 2-year training than sobeit.

How could I possible be more specific? That is why although federal funding should be there, at least state-level control over the implementation would probably be necessary.

People need a safety net, not a crutch.

[liberalmike27]

63. It won't take much

to learn to drive a truck to deliver the products produced in foreign lands to Wal-Mart, or some other big-box company. You could explore the field of security guard, a fast growing occupation. After all, as unemployment increases, people will resort to various criminal enterprises, and you can work in this growing field as our country melts down into dystopia. The rich will of course need personal bodyguards to protect them, and their kids and grandkids. It will become increasingly apparent that the wealthy people and corporations who control all politicians have sold us all down the river for more profits, and people will be looking for a little revanche.

I can't help but remember how computer jobs were going to be the salvation. Where are they going now? India, and China, as in the post. Some people there got a job that barely pays the bills in their society, someone here lost a good job, when you call for support you can't understand them at all, and our economy got a little bit weaker.

You are right, there are clear winners and losers, and some of us have been defining who they are quite well. But as the foundation falls, those making at or near minimum, those in the middle class just above them, the country will fall, all classes will drop into the soup of dystopia.

[DiverDave]

70. just as I thought...ignore the question

you dont hide your true affiliation very well...

[datasuspect]

72. bravo

just damn.

good stuff.

[fasttense]

13. You are correct that if this man got a job at McDonald,

he would live better than that Indian family. But is that the goal? To reduce the American middle class to the standards of an Indian lower class family?

That family was not rich, I've seen rich Indian families and that one did not fit the bill. The ones who are suffering form this give away of American jobs is the middle class, not the rich not, not the poor. The ones who are profiting from the give away are the rich, not the middle class, not the poor. Why should the American middle class be the only ones to carry the burden of out sourcing, and why should the rich be the only ones who profit? If out sourcing is good, then why does it not profit everyone equally?

Let's face it, if India got it's act together in about 25 years they wouldn't be willing to accept the miserly pay these companies who outsource are offering. The only reason these CEO's can get away with paying so little is because the country has some serious social problems that it hasn't resolved. So basically these companies are in the position of promoting social problems in order to continue to get their cheap labor.

You recommend retraining and I ask retraining for what? House cleaning? Counter work? Restaurant work? Because service industries work is the only jobs not shipped overseas. There is even talk of outsourcing medical jobs. There isn't a job in this country that can't be shipped to another country except for cleaning up after or waiting on people. How does that make for a resilient economy? To me it sounds like a third world nation.

Anyone who knows a little social science knows that this continued out sourcing will result in the disappearance of the American middle class and the growth of the poor. The US will be like Chile in the early 60's where families lived in cardboard boxes next to wealthy families living in mansions. The two class society has already started.

[warrior1]

16. Saw the show last night

but for clarification, Chris's former job was a programmer, and in India he worked for a call center. A highly regarded job for them. Chris told his host family that in America this type of job was entry level and not so highly regarded.

[Ino]

24. Ah, thanks for the correction, Warrior

I had missed the first 15 mins.

[LostinVA]

18. Oh giggle giggle giggle

[mcscajun]

23. Retraining, Ha!

Tell that to older, college-educated, IT workers who heard Bush talk about "retraining" at community colleges. All the retraining in the world won't let middle-aged, formerly high-paid IT workers compete in a market where younger workers will work for half, and foreign workers, especially Indian workers, will work for a 1/4 to a 1/3 of what they made.

Many account for the long-term unemployed, and the UNDERemployed. Tell your American friends to Look Around, read the newspaper stories, talk to the checker at their local supermarket, the waitress at their favorite restaurant, or the patient intake desk at their doctor's office; chances are, one of them used to work in IT.

[ERF]

25. Once again, what would you actually advocate being done?

Are you complaining about their jobs being outsources or about younger workers?

Are these older IT workers victims of the dotcom bubble? What should have been done so that they could have jobs? Should the government employ them? To do what? Should their companies have been prevented from firing them despite the fact that they might not have been needed?

To much job protection leads to higher unemployment. Look at France and Germany.

[demnan]

31. What would I recommend?

I would recommend that we elect Democrats. And stop the wars. And we need something you have, universal health care. That way the incentive for outsourcing isn't there. That way we could keep some money in this country for social programs. Retraining someone 50 years old with the equivalent of a Master's Degree just doesn't make sense. Just give us our jobs back and let the government do something besides making bombs for a change.

[mcscajun]

32. No, the older workers are not victims of the dotcom bubble.

They are victims of short-term thinking on the part of corporations, of laissez-faire thinking on the part of politicians, and the Republican removal of much of the safety net. Most of the victims of the dot-com bubble were in fact far younger, and more easily mobile in the economy.

Profit-making must be distinguished from profiteering, from bloodletting. The firms that are outsourcing were already making profits, they weren't losing money. They are still making money now. Who benefits? CEOs that are paid hundreds upon hundreds of times more than the average lower level worker in the same firm. Stockholders are just beginning to put pressure on this factor, but I don't hold out much hope that they'll succeed. Other countries don't BEGIN to see the kind of wage disparity we do in this country, and they have more of a social safety net.

Much of the outsourcing and offshoring was thinly disguised age discrimination designed to shuffle out highly-paid workers with expensive benefits. How do I know this? Because I WAS ONE of these, and I had to perform a "Knowledge transfer" to my Indian counterparts, or I wouldn't get severance, and because one of the papers I had to sign to GET my severance was a legal agreement that I would not sue the firm over my "layoff" (what a quaint word, "layoff"; it used to mean you would be put back on the payroll when conditions improved) including any lawsuit over age discrimination. These firms also sprinkle the "layoffs" around, timing them so that they skirt the edges of federal employment statutes, eliminating the need to report, and removing certain employee protections. The US government has also jiggered the Unemployment numbers to drop a large number of unemployed from reported figures. Our Republican pResident has refused, along with our Republican-controlled Congress, to extend unemployment insurance past the base level of 26 weeks. There's a Lot that could be done, that isn't being done. Telling us to get retraining over at the community college is simply a slap in the face.

Job protectionism, like trade protectionism, rarely works, but there is much the government Can Do to level the playing field, and the Republicans cannot, and will not, do Any Of It.

And you, sir or madam, are either a Bush apologist, an out-of-touch expatriate, or a German national who is talking to the wrong Americans, and buying what they're selling. As I said, tell your American friends to have a hard look around. This economy is listing to one side (guess whose?) and our government is doing nothing but rearranging the deck chairs.

[HughBeaumont]

34. Damn.

Training your replacement as a requirement for severance should be made universally ILLEGAL, end of sentence. Pieces of garbage.

[mcscajun]

35. Yeah, it was pretty awful. You had to do the job properly and

cheerfully; you didn't know who might be watching and listening to report you. The company could then report you as let go for cause, and you would not only be denied severance, you wouldn't be eligible for unemployment.

It was a pretty rotten experience. On the Plus side, management had so narrowly defined the job being transferred that they limited the knowledge transfer to that single function. So that's all I trained them on. :)

[ERF]

36. I agree. How would such a law be enforced?

Or is it more of an imperitive?

[HughBeaumont]

50. Most likely it never will be, but it should be.

Congressional Repugs here, who are bound by their corporate whipmasters and most of whom have a disdain for the labor of this country, would never pass such a law. It's pretty demoralizing, but since it falls under their grey-area definition of "knowledge transfer", they'll excuse it and the hazing will continue.

[Broken_Hero]

29. sorry

but if you had a job at mcdonalds, you would still be getting benefits from the government, more than likely. With the minimum wage at 5.15 an hour, how far do you expect that wage to stretch? I have seen countless families, who were making more than 10 bucks an hour, still recieve help from the federal government, because 10 bucks an hour wasn't enough to survive on.

A job at McDonalds is okay for a high school kid, who lives at home, but as means to build a future on? Nope, not even close....

[silverojo]

38. Let's outsource your job

And retrain your sorry ass. :mad:

Who pays for the retraining?

Who puts food on the table for their family while the breadwinner is being retrained?

Get a goddamned clue.

[ERF]

41. I currently work and am studying. I also live in a country

with some very impressive benefits and an adequate social safety net.

Still, the unemployment is too high because of the restrictions on the labour market. Thus, the restrictions are being loosened somewhat, the incentives to work (rather than receive public payments) increased and the social safety net is staying in place.

I honestly expected people to say that they think guarenteed health care, and retraining along with adequate benefits during the period would be the answer. This is what works in Europe if you pay attention.

However it seems most of what I seem to be seeing is a combination of desiring indeterminate government intervention or simply attacking the person who dares ask a legitimate question.

[mcscajun]

60. If you've read the responses carefully, you'll see at least half a dozen

references to Health Care as an issue.

We are clamoring for Universal Health Care in this country. We know it is one of the biggest burdens on employers, and one of the worst things the unemployed and underemployed in this country have to deal with.

The questions you pose are certainly legitimate, but the arrogance (and selective listening/selective answering) is what gets you attacked.

[ERF]

65. Fair enough. Also, see my post #46

[liberalmike27]

42. Nope

Is that Economics as taught in supposedly "liberal" universities. Sorry, I can't agree with that. Economics certainly is one of the disciplines where you can find a different opinion with each person you ask that is in the field.

I hope you are being sarcastic, but it doesn't seem so. Unless they have a minimum wage, collective bargaining, the same or better environmental standards, and worker safety rules, and no child labor, then it is, as Jessie Jackson correctly states, a rush to the bottom for the United States. We can't, nor will we ever benefit from competing with foreign labor that earns a buck a day.

For the forseeable future, there will always be another country that will take jobs away from US, and those who've already had them, like Mexico's jobs have now left for China. The only people who benifit are, as usual, those who Congress and the President serve; the upper classes who own the majority of the stock in these companies. And about 87% (at last reading) of all stock is owned by the top 50%. Of course, the higher the income group, the larger the chunk of stock they own.

Add to that the danger of all the ships coming here as just another avenue for a nuclear bomb to be smuggled in, and the fact that we have a global crisis that is aggrevated by shipping stuff all over the world, then you have two more reasons that it is bad for us. We all need to switch back to as much local means of production as possible. It will be good for us, and good for the planet. You need to reexamine anything you've been taught, as the media, and most schools are not at all liberal. The same thing has happened with schools as the media. The perception has been promoted that they are liberal, and nothing could be further from the truth.

[ERF]

46. If you are talking about redefining wealth, that is a different topic

At the end of the day, my comments are correct based on economics as it is currently practised and understood.

If you want to get into a conversation about what is sustainable and the true cost of goods, the rapaciousness and immorality of a consumer society and the race to the bottom, I am happy to do so as well.

There are three books I would recommend to begin with:
1. Collapse by Jared Diamond
2. Your Money Or Your Life is by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin
3. Following Christ in a Consumer Society by John F. Kavanaugh

You don't have to be religious to appreciate the last one.

You might also want to try "Limits to Growth the 30-year update" by Dennis Meadows.

If you have read any of them, I am happy to discuss.

[liberalmike27]

66. I'd Recommend

That you think for yourself, and come up with your own ideas. Any book you read has its own opinion, and forward their own opinions and biases.

I don't really care what they think, I only know our politicians are not working for us, and we can define our system in any way we want (or they want). People act as if things just "happen" which is patently absurd. They make them happen, they shuffle jobs away, they even give tax breaks for those who want to move their jobs elsewhere. Most of us wouldn't object as much if we did have European systems in place, with health care, unemployment insurance, and I might add, decent wages. You frequently hear those "experts" that you tout talking about how bad that system is, as it does require greater taxes from those who are making all the rapacious decisions that are destroying the lives of real people who live here in the United States.

I don't have problems with say Schwinn opening a factory in India to sell bicycles to Indians or other like economies. I do have problems with them opening a factory there, and then shipping them back to here. I guess Huffy is a better example, since they were more recently downsized.

By the way I don't want you to think I don't read a lot, though I've not read any of those books. But I would be suspect of any book written by anyone in the field of economics, as the subset of the population that lives in that world does not in any way represent what is American labor, so when they speak or promote ideas, the promote their own, the ones that benefit them.

[ERF]

67. Only one of those books I suggested has to do anything

At all with economics. The rest were on redefining wealth as you had stated in your previous post.

They were books that outlined how one can live a life of dignity, comfort and fulfillment without being surrounded constantly by stuff or the encouragement to purchase stuff.

Choosing to read a variety of authors and then digest the information and forms one's own opinions is the mark of someone who is educated. Not the parroting of talk-radio talking points. I am not saying your are, but you seemed to imply that I was.

[raccoon]

49. Retrain for effing what? Riddle me that, Batman.

"retraining and education programs are needed"

[AndyA]

33. Outsourcing is bad for America.

We lose good paying jobs with benefits. Similar jobs are in short supply, so people work for less money, and get no benefits. There is not enough money for training or education, as those programs have had their budgets slashed. So, the employee must foot the bills themselves. How does that happen on minimum wage? It doesn't.

These jobs have horrible work schedules, you must often be at work very early, and/or very late. When is there time for school? Plus, you're on your feet all the time, so you're physically and mentally exhausted when you get home. Not good conditions for studying.

We must realize that we need to protect American companies and American workers. Allowing companies to outsource jobs to India isn't the answer. It costs more to live in America, and those costs aren't going to be reduced by outsourcing all of our good jobs to another country, and replacing them with crap jobs. All that does is increase the number of people living in poverty, which Bush has done with his irresponsible policies.

We need to start putting America first, and fix our problems instead of trying to be the monitor for the world. We cannot do it, and while we spend billions in other countries, American citizens do not have a roof over their heads, medical care, prescription drugs, or any of the other things required to live.

We need to take care of our own before we start sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong. It's disgraceful to have so many Americans hurting and dying because our government doesn't care about them, it's more interested in helping people in other countries. WTF?

[Nikki Stone 1]

43. Amen! Good post.

:kick:

[OhioChick]

56. Great Post! n/t

[The2ndWheel]

58. Too late

We're the world's police, whether we like it or not.

[oc2002]

62. We need to take back our party first, and get rid of the pro-out sourcers

in the Democratic party.

Clinton approved NAFTA outsourcing of jobs to Mexico. and GATT I believe.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2868358

Although the Republicans have been much, much worse.

[oc2002]

53. Outsourcing is supported by the Democrats..go figure..

I feel sorry for India people, but maybe they should practice birth control so they do not over populate thier own country first, then they would not have so many jobless, starving people.

[ceile]

55. Excellent show.

I saw the one about the minute man that had to live with a family of illegals for a month and it was great! I missed the outsourcing one though. I will definitely catch it when it reruns. I don't know about an atheist with fundies. The fundies may drive me to drink if I watch.

[The2ndWheel]

57. But isn't that what the minuteman would've said?

I don't think the show is just for the people on it.

[sadiesworld]

64. More corporate propaganda from Hollywood. n/t