Can we all agree with these two ideas re: US/Cuba policy?

[Ken Burch]

1) In the event of the death or permanent retirement of Fidel Castro as president of Cuba, the United States should NOT, in any way, attempt to overthrow or cause the overthrow of the existing Cuban government?

2) In the same instance, the United States government should NOT allow the Miami exiles to return to Cuba or otherwise intervene in its internal affairs?

[yurbud]

1. a radical change in our foreign policy, but the correct one.

[EFerrari]

2. Ever since Castro seemed to be ill, all I could think was how

stupid Junior is and how Cheney thinks he can take it all with him.

:(

[dipsydoodle]

3. I agree entirely with both points

but that don't change the fact I'm equally sure there will be interference in Cuba's affairs.

[Missy M]

4. I agree with those two ideas wholeheartedly.......

If the Miami exiles returned to Cuba it would be with the urging and backing of the Bush administration.

[flordehinojos]

5. i stand with you.

i vote with you.
i support both your points.

bush doesn't and neither do the diaz-balart brothers, ileana ros-lehtinen, the CANF, ninotshka perez. alina fernandez etc.,
why! they will even probably exhume jorge mas-canosa's body, take it down to cuba, and bury it in a national monument that they will probably build down there for him.

[Disturbed]

6. Why can't American citizens travel to Cuba?

Why can't American busineses conduct business with Cuba?

[flordehinojos]

13. somehow the HELMS-BURTON law rings a bell in my ears (but i may be

wrong about the precise BILL/LAW which prohibits Americans from Conducting any business in Cuba...a law which was pushed into sponsorship and existence by the famed diaz-balarts/ros lehtinen nobody-is-more-cuban-than-they-are and their claim that businesses in cuba would only benefit fidel, not the people there...and they really want fidel out of cuba so that businesses in cuba can benefit them, not fidel.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Travel and trade with Cuba should be normalized.

What the folks in miami do is up to them and the government of Cuba. If you meant we should not try and sponsor another Bay of Pigs event, don't worry those guys are in their 70's and 80's and their grandchildren are not exactly ready to die for the cause.

[cgrindley]

8. We can agree all we like but the worms will return

immediately and absolutely ruin Cuba. They'll turn it into a despotic right wing hellhole in under five years. Mark my words.

[DocSavage]

9. Yeah

because Cuba is a land of milk and honey now. Wouldn't want to change that at all. Tell me again about that illegal immigration problem that Cuba is having?

[cgrindley]

11. Cuba may not be the land of milk and honey

no place is.

But mark my words, when the worms take over, they will turn what little there is in Cuba into a blasted miserable hellhole of corruption, crime and racial tension. Within thirty five minutes, give or take, it'll be a Putin-quality kleptocracy flavored with bossism, death squads and astonishing despair.

[RagingInMiami]

22. You are underestimating the Cubans in Cuba

They're not going to bow down that quickly.

[Yupster]

27. crime, corruption and racism

has been growing in Cuba ever since they decided to accept dollars and cater to tourism again.

Fidel knew it would be a problem, but had no other way to replace the Soviet largesse.

Venezuela is starting to take up the slack, so maybe soon they can clamp down on the dollars that are messing up their economy, or I should say economies as there are basically two now, one for those with access to hard currency and another lesser one for those without.

[Ken Burch]

19. No, Cuba isn't Utopia. But it goes without saying that the exiles

will just make everything worse. They have no positive motivations.

[Yupster]

26. The worms?

Is there another group of refugees around the world who have left everything behind fleeing a non-democratic government that we insult, or is it just Cubans?

And why is it okay to insult them?

Seems pretty uncaring to me.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. 1 yes, 2 no.

Americans have no right to interfere in the government of Cuba; Cuban ex-pats have as much right as anyone other Cuban. It certainly isn't the US government's place to stop them doing so.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone who left Cuba because they didn't want to live under a dictatorship (or, indeed, for other reasons) is a raving right-wing loony.

[Bridget Burke]

14. Most of those who left Cuba are very old now.

Unless they were children, brought over with their families.

I've known several second generation Cuban "exiles." They are interested in traveling to Cuba but have good lives here--they don't want to relive any family fantasies.

Good luck to the toothless veterans of the Bay of Pigs--that first, failed attempt to retake Cuba. And to the members of the younger generation who've been failures in the USA. Will Elian's American relatives lead the way?

Since most of the gusanos are now US citizens--does this mean the US will let the rest of us visit Cuba?

[RagingInMiami]

23. The Cubans have never stopped coming to the U.S.

You might be referring to the original wave of Cubans, but they are still arriving. In fact, 130,000 Cubans arrived in Miami since 2000. And most are young.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Are the younger "exiles" dreaming of their easy life back in Cuba?

Do they remember their fine homes & ranches, with servants waiting upon them? Do they hope to reclaim their former riches?

Somehow, I think the younger ones came because life in the USA looked easier. Why should they take up arms to re-create a Cuba in which life would be even harder--for them--than it was when they left?

[Vidar]

12. Absolutely.

[NewSpectrum]

15. Nope, anyone who fled from a tyranny...

.... has a right to actively oppose that tyranny (especially if they left family memebers behind) and help his fellow countrymen rid themselves of the tyrant. Very simple and ridiculously obvious.

[Ken Burch]

18. Even though most of them supported the PREVIOUS tyranny?

Nobody in Little Havana wants the poor and the workers to keep any of the victories they've won. Those people
want to wipe out the last 46 years and kill a lot of the Afro-Cuban and mixed-race Cuban majority.

They should just stay in Miami, screw the workers there and leave it at that. They have NOTHING to offer Cuba and none of them did anything good for Cuba when they were still living there.

Cuba just needs to add democracy to the gains of the Revolution. It can gain nothing from privatization and austerity. And the United States will never be morally entitled to influence Cuba again. We never brought anything but Lucky Luciano and hookers to the place.

[RagingInMiami]

24. Most of them did NOT support the previous tyranny

Please stop talking out of your ass. You have no idea what you're talking about. Most supported Castro in toppling Batista. That's a fact.

If Castro did not have the support of the middle-class, he never would have succeeded. It wasn't until two years later, when Castro declared allegiance with the USSR, that most of these Cubans fled the country.

And you say that "Nobody in Little Havana wants the poor and the workers to keep any of the victories they've won."?

Miami is third poorest city in the country. Little Havana is one of the poorest neighborhoods in Miami.

You're acting as if Little Havana is a Latinized Beverly Hills. It's non-stop with you, this bullshit you keep spreading.

[Ken Burch]

28. Well, when you see those guys on the news saying

"We'll make it like USED to be", the suspicions of reactionary intent naturally arise.

And remember, a few years ago this entire community was staging protests in defense of the kidnapping of a child.

I hope even YOU would admit that that was wrong.

Also, the Bush "transition" report, which these people basically drafted, calls for a Republican future on the island. That's what mass privatization and market values mean. They'll never be a Cuban version of a liberal Democrat.

Why couldn't those people just let it go at getting away and being in Miami? Why did they launch a 46 year prograof terror and intolerance that included harassing the elderly members of that notorius communist terror group The Buena Vista Social Club?

[Ken Burch]

29. Well, if capitalism has given THEM such a sucky life, it makes it even

less rational that they're so obsessed to re-imposing it on the homeland they abandoned.

These people have never supported compromise or dialogue(which, if you hadn't noticed, Fidel and co. had given some indication of being willing to engage in).
They weren't going to settle for anything short of the END of the Revolution, not its democratic rehabilitation.

And they cheered when an airliner full of innocent people was blown up by one of their own.

Give me one good reason why I should see anything positive in what that community has gotten up to or what they've demanded for Cuba?

They don't want democracy, and you know it. They think what happened in Eastern Europe was the ideal result(despite the fact that the heroic peoples of Eastern Europe were fighting for democracy, not "market values".)

And a lot of them left because they didn't want their little white kids going to school with Afro-Cubanos.

I fully expect that, if they do come back, they'll melt down the John Lennon statue and replace it with a monument to Gloria Estefan and an ATM.

[LostinVA]

16. And, what do the Batista Exiles think they're gonna do???

Go back and claim their old houses, etc., from Cubans???

Most of them will probably be trying to put a Batista back in power and enslave the black Cubans ASAP.

Freakin' nutters.

[Nutmegger]

17. Agreed [nt]

[Selatius]

20. I hate to sound like a weasel, but define "attempt"

What do you mean? Are you talking about "attempt" a la Venezuela where we funnel millions of dollars through USAID and the NED to fund opposition groups even though accepting foreign money may be illegal?

Is that allowable under your terms? Or are you strictly speaking about a moratorium on everything that includes the use of force or violence or terror to achieve goals?

[RagingInMiami]

21. Your two statements contradict each other

I agree with the first one. But if that were true, then the U.S. will have no control over who tries to intervene in Cuba's internal affairs. That would be up to the Cuban government.

If the Cubans exiles want to return to Cuba, the U.S. should allow them as they should allow all US citizens to visit Cuba as we speak. But once the Miami Cubans arrive in Cuba, then they should be at the mercy of the Cuban government.