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Just had a "Road to Damascus" moment about how to discuss the war

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 01:13 AM
Original message
Just had a "Road to Damascus" moment about how to discuss the war
Against all common sense, and probably because I've been sick lately and thus sleeping irregular hours, I found myself engaging in an idiot-fest known as "Yahoo Answers" on the Yahoo corner of the web. Then some girl there posts a question online if anyone has lost someone in Iraq.

Whoa. Reality intrudes into my pleasant cyberlife again.

She said her uncle just died over there. Her question was short on details, but obviously this is a kid dealing with a lot of pain. My response was about a couple of ex-students of mine who've gone over there--they've been changed by Iraq, but none have been hurt, thank God. But it occurs to me that the whole question about Iraq is a human question.

Those who support a different viewpoint than me tend to dismiss the human aspect of it. They talk in platitudes about "fighting them over there instead of over here" and "defending freedom" (of which Iraq is such a bastion now) "striking back at terrorism"--all vague ideas with no real appreciation of the human costs of all that hardware and ordinance.

And the flip side is us here at DU. Too often, I think we speak in scornful terms about the war--we call it fascism and imperialism and blood-for-oil. Some of us even label all of our troops for the atrocities of the small minority who cross the line and betray their country's values. I don't think any of that sort of thinking helps. Ignoring reality or indulging in condemnation of ordinary troops is not productive. It does not solve the domestic political mess that this war has become.

This country is not a democracy because we vote. Hell, people voted in Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia and Saddam's Iraq. It's a democracy because we the people are responsible for the decisions our country makes. We can only change things if we talk with each other and if, in talking, we change other peoples' minds.

From now on, whenever I talk to someone about this war, I'm going to do so pretending that someone who just lost a family member in that conflict--someone who cannot deny the human costs of it the way senators do--is standing right over my shoulder. I'm going to acknowledge first off that honorable people are dying in a war created by madmen, that every life lost is a tragedy, that I have not lost anyone in this war because of dumb luck and because no one in my own family is in the service right now.

The human costs, the human tragedy is why I fight. We always get bogged down in ideologies and name calling when we dismiss the human side of our politics. The Republicans benefit from a debate that avoids specifics and ignores real world responsibilities and indulges in Rambo-like fantasies of solving problems with violence and bulletproof supermen.

I told that poor girl on Yahoo:
Whether you believe in continuing the occupation till peace is won or you think that it's time to bring the mission to an end, fight 100% for what you believe.

I cannot imagine what she lost, what the empty seat at the next family get-together will be like. I cannot imagine that scene happening at a 3000 American dinner tables this coming Thanksgiving. I cannot imagine that scene happening at 30,000-100,000 Iraqi tables. But I can and must remind everyone I speak to that this is the reality we are all responsible for.

I cannot get that poor girl's loss out of my head. I'm a damn lucky person who can come home to my kid at night and sleep in a peaceful neighborhood and only have to worry about gas prices and keeping my job and affording college. Someone's uncle died in Iraq to make all that stuff easier for me. I would never have chosen that, but it's the reality that my country has created. It's my job now to stop it, if I can.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great post and very enlightening...
I find that most RW people I talk with have a real disconnect, and use a lot of propaganda rhetoric to support their views...very good response to that poster on yahoo....
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. can you even believe they still say
"fighting them there so we do not have to fight them here" Absolute arrogance to speak as though another country is an appropriate battleground, that their deaths are collateral damage or something in our war on terror.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The very phrase presumes that others are somehow inferior.
If a US citizen dies, it's a terrible human tragedy.
If 25 brown children die, it's just "collateral damage".
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Quote:
"Some of us even label all of our troops for the atrocities of the small minority who cross the line and betray their country's values."

I don't even know what that means. It sounds like the 'spitting on 'Nam Vets' routine.

In general, I blame none of the troops. I blame those responsible for orchestrating the attrocities. And, it's not the troops in 125 degree heat.

And just what constitutes this "country's values" now?

This country now stands for death, destruction, torture, stolen elections, endless lies and a One Party Criminal State as our Official National Policy. I don't think that kid's Uncle died for that.

I think that kid's Uncle was ground up in Bush's meat grinder for reasons that I can only guess at. However, I am certain it had nothing to do with you or me.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. If only THEY had to TRULY sacrifice!
:grr:


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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Good questions
I don't even know what that means. It sounds like the 'spitting on 'Nam Vets' routine.

I've seen several posters here lump all troops into the category of war criminals, or say "they must be sickos or killers at heart to even sign up to join the army." Besides being wrongheaded and inaccurate, it's also bad politics to say everyone who is a vet is a sicko. Yet I've seen precisely that sentiment expressed by at least a few squeaky wheels here at DU. That's what I meant by "some of us even label our troops for the atrocities."

And just what constitutes this "country's values" now?

I do, and our values are not defined by Bush and his fellow oil-pirates. Nor are they defined by Abu Ghraib. Our values are defined by the many troops at the beginning of the war who reported that they didn't return fire on some Iraqi positions because the Iraqi defenders had taken shelter behind civilian housing. Our values are defined by Jessica Lynch who, when the media tried to play her up as a hero, honestly admitted that she did nothing heroic, thought that the whole rescue thing was hyped beyond reality, and reminded us that several of her fellows deserved equal attention--and that several more died and were being forgotten altogether. Our values are defined by peole who speak out against this pointless war, and even by those who support it but refuse to attack their opponents as unpatriotic.

I could go on, but you know what's right about this country. And you know who's wrong.

I think that kid's Uncle was ground up in Bush's meat grinder for reasons that I can only guess at. However, I am certain it had nothing to do with you or me.

Yes it's Bush's meat grinder. But like it or not, it's our meat grinder too. That's the price we pay for living in a democracy. The government is our animal. If we win a war, WE win a war. If the army commits atrocities, it reflects on us and it's our job to police the army to make sure it doesn't commit them. It's our responsibility. Protesting against the war does not exhonerate me from the moral responsibility of atoning for what my public servants did.

The blood is on our hands too. That's not a fun thought. It's worse than frustrating. But in a democracy, you have to help carry the cost, even if your side lost the debate. I keep going back to the loose dog analogy. If your guard dog gets off the leash and bites the neighbor's kid, you don't get off the hook just because you yelled "Fido, sit".

The government is our dog and we let it get off the leash. We failed to control the animal and it's now killed a lot of kids. We have not yet begun to pay this failure. But some day, we will.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think it helps to try to humanize the casualties of this war
Try to seek out news stories of the people living on both sides of the border. Find out the names and stories of the victims. And realize that many people in both countries don't support their government just like we sometimes don't support ours.

In truth, all of that is easier said than done.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. THAT is the lesson of Vietnam
If you're going to fight, fight 100%. If a war isn't worth 5,000 lives, it's not worth 1. That is what Republicans don't know. They're the ones who half-ass their wars and don't have the stomach for real sacrifice. So they end up with politically driven wars instead of militarily driven, that cost more lives in the end.

And if it isn't worth one more life, then you fight like hell to end the mission for all.

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-08-06 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
9. Very enlightening and succint. What I think about everytime
some new horror is dealt out of Iraq is... how many new terrorists that we must kill were created by what went down at Fallujah, Haditha and other events we will never hear about.

In other words, "we're fighting them over there because of what we have done over there."
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