Church tells Katrina mom it's time to go

[AngryAmish]

"Moved by the plight of a single mother who appeared on Oprah Winfrey's show last year to tell of losing her home to Hurricane Katrina, members of a Palatine church invited her to live rent-free in their parsonage.

St. Paul United Church of Christ has hosted Keisha Moran, 23, and her children since last September, providing them with the means for starting a new life--including donations of clothing, furniture, food and even a car. But the church now says it is time for Moran and her three children--ages 5, 1 1/2 and 4 months--to leave and get on with life on their own.

"Our commitment was to provide housing for you and to give you an opportunity to become self-sufficient after the losses you experienced from Hurricane Katrina," the church's Executive Council told Moran in a letter. The council said that it is time for Moran to take "the next step" by herself.

One problem: Moran doesn't want to go. She said she is being kicked out prematurely and for no good reason."

[MercutioATC]

1. Lemme get this straight...

A church provides housing and thousands of dollars to a family without a home and the recipient now complains that she's not ready to leave?

I can sympathyze with her plight, but her behavior toward the organization that supported her is atrocious.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lusted4]

259. Delete

[Warpy]

19. She's got two kids in diapers, ferkrissakes!

Trust me, that makes a woman pretty helpless when it comes to going out to forge any sort of a career.

Yes, I think she probably should have been prodded toward organizing day care and a JOB, but consider one of those kids in diapers is only 4 months old. Much of the time she's spent on assistance has been pregnant time and recovery from childbirth. There are few day cares that will take kids in diapers, and fewer still that will take infants.

It's a shame nobody recognizes the very special needs of single parents of very young children.

[valerief]

22. Looks like you and I are the only ones with any sympathy for this

Katrina victim and her babies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Oh I sympathize

This church is who we should be critizing.

[Warpy]

64. I'm not sure that's the case, either

but clearly his mother needs help for more than 11 months.

Unfortunately, we have a system that has been looted by the rich and there is no longer much of anything for her.

I just hope the church has managed to light some sort of fire under her butt and under the local welfare department's aggregate butt to try to work something out. She needs to get one kid out of diapers, at least, before she considers trying to make it on her own.

In the meantime, the sperm donor needs to be tracked down and his ass thrown in jail if he can't see fit to support his children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. She can get TANF for 5 years

Why in the world is it the church's responsibility to light a fire under her butt? And how do you know there isn't a fire there already? The article says she did have a job.

[bobbolink]

269. I"m not surprised.

I've seen this sort of attitude up close and personal.

It's so easy to judge another.

It's what we've become as a society, and liberals are not immune.

Very sad, indeed, and very depressing to witness!

[MercutioATC]

24. As I said, I sympathize. That doesn't excuse her behavior.

She was in need. An organization provided for her for 11 months and asked nothing in return.

Now, that organization needs to remodel the space it gave her to live in and she complains that she's not ready to stop taking handouts from them??

Atrocious behavior.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. That is the same line

the conservatives use when they complain about welfare queens.

[MercutioATC]

30. So, tell me, how is the church at fault?

...and how is this woman justified in demanding that they continue to support her and her children?

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Good question!

Why should anyone get welfare? It's a boot strap society, damnit! Everyone should just have to fend for themselves!!

Damn welfare queens! Let's sterilize them all!!

:sarcasm:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. where again was the curch at fault

for giving this woman and her family 11 months of support?

Oh...forgot who I was asking...

sP

[bigluckyfeet]

296. Let Me Add

It's not the work of the church to take care of that family,members of the church can help them,but its not the work of the church.Read your Bible.

[MercutioATC]

Care to answer it, or are you more comfortable making generalizations?

I asked a specific question.

How is this church at fault?

They provided her with free lodging for 11 months and at least $3000 cash. Why are they at fault?

Taken from another angle, is there a point at which you would feel they'd fulfilled their "obligation" to this woman or do they have the responsibility to support her forever?

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

62. I see, you don't want to address the question. That's fine.

You're under absolutely no obligation to support your contentions.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elehhhhna]

135. also a car etc.

[Rosemary2205]

59. Your reply is totally uncalled for.

The point made had nothing to do with whether or not Ms Moran or any other single mother "deserves" community help. The point made is that this church isn't responsible for her children. They heroicly stepped forward in a time a need and have given her ample time to figure out a longer term solution. Asking these church members to raise 3 kids for a lifetime is just unreasonable.

[Critters2]

123. So they could move in with you, then, right?

I can give you the church's phone number and we could start the process to move the family out to Kansas toute de suite! That way, they wouldn't have to fend for themselves.

You're very generous to do this.

[AZBlue]

264. How many unemployed mothers of three do you having living w/you?

nt

[Critters2]

270. My church is helping several

Yours?

[liberalhistorian]

319. If I weren't living in a small studio

apartment that has just enough room for me, I would be very happy to have them come here and stay however long they needed. I've been a single mother in dire circumstances, and I know exactly what this woman and her children are going through; it really sickens me to see comments like this against her on this board, of all places. It's called simple human kindness and Christian charity, something this church needs to learn.

[MercutioATC]

327. Do "real" christians put conditions on their charity?

You say you don't have room for them. I'm sure a very little room would be better than no room at all. I'm not questioning your sincerity, just your eagerness to blame this church that's provided for this woman and her kids for 11 months. If "Christian charity" is completely selfless, there should be no problem with you (or any other person blaming the church for this situation) housing, feeding and clothing this woman and her children (don't forget to give her a car and cash, too).

[valerief]

32. Applause, applause, applause! n/t

[liberalhistorian]

318. Bullshit!

A true Christian church would put the needs of human beings, ESPECIALLY innocent young children, far ahead of any material benefit for the church, such as remodeling a church room. A single mother of very young children who's suffered such a horrible physical and emotional trauma of losing everything in a hurricane should be far more important to a church than remodeling a room. IF it's a TRUE Christian church, that is. The CHURCH'S behaviour is atrocious, and not the woman's.

[MercutioATC]

326. And a "true christian" would be grateful for the charity...

...they wouldn't say "I want more"...

[progressivebydesign]

76. So she should live in the church until the kids are potty trained?

PLENTY of women raise kids and work... she did nothing to help herself, and now she needs to get it together. 4 months more is more than generous. I bet thousands of homeless mothers with kids would have LOVED to have a free car, free housing, gifts, etc. for a year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

280. Read the article - she DID have a job

[AZBlue]

260. From the article itself:

"Day care and job opportunities have been offered"

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. How about their behavior towards HER??

"Here, stay here. Oops, now you have to leave!"

[valerief]

29. Yeah, we carried you through the worst of your pregnancy. The

youngest is 4 months old already. What have you been doing all this time? Fighting with FEMA? Taking care of your children? Trying to get the babies' father to help? Where are your priorities? The preacher needs her summer home!

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Can I get an AMEN??

[EFerrari]

113. AMEN!

:nuke:

[LittleClarkie]

103. A parsonage is not a "summer home"

A parsonage is where the preacher lives, generally.

Was it supposed to be indefinite?

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. She lost everything in a hurricane

and has 3 small children and no job. And moved far away to restart her life.

Go ahead, put a time limit on rising out of poverty. Here's a hint - it won't happen in a year.

[Critters2]

196. So, let her move in with you

ad infinitum.

[proud2BlibKansan]

278. No I think your house would be better

:)

[uppityperson]

199. They had an agreement.

But Ryan said the church had a verbal agreement with Moran that she'd be able to stay until June 2006, when everyone would meet to "revisit" the matter. The church said in a statement Friday that members tried multiple times to meet with Moran and create a lease that "reflected the verbal agreement."

"She never responded to our numerous requests for that meeting," the statement said. "For that reason, there was no written, signed agreement."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. that's right...they only let her stay there 11 months

not for the rest of her life...ASSHOLES. :sarcasm:

A church does something good for someone...decides that they can no longer keep doing it...and you bash...

figures...

Would you have been more or less upset if they had turned her out 11 months ago and never taken her in at all???

sP

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I want more information

before I judge her.

[uppityperson]

43. reply#32, should be criticizing the church.

how about getting more information before critisizing them either?

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. I think kicking her out is heartless

She is a victim with 3 small children. How many more times is she going to be kicked?

[uppityperson]

52. did you read the article?

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Yes especially this part:

Moran's predicament is similar to that of other Katrina victims who remain unprepared to fend for themselves, say experts who have counseled evacuees.

Although many of them have pulled their lives together, getting jobs and adjusting to a new way of life, there are just as many who have not, said Pam Cordier, statewide coordinator of the Illinois Department of Human Services Katrina crisis counseling program.

"We are finding many who are stuck in limbo," Cordier said. "While a year seems like a long time, it really isn't when you've lost everything you've owned--especially a single woman with three children."

[uppityperson]

67. This part too? It sounds like a hard situation for all.

McNamara said hosting the family has been "an incredible blessing." But the church community has provided all the help and resources it could muster over the past 11 months to help Moran get on her feet. Day care and job opportunities have been offered, McNamara said.

"I'm certain there are thousands of people in Illinois or anywhere across the country who, if they were given the opportunity to live rent-free in a home the entire year and have their needs met, would seize the opportunity and change their life in such a way that the future would be radically different," McNamara said.

Help is still available

Other agencies are willing to help Moran immediately, McNamara said. The not-for-profit Women in Need Growing Stronger, or WINGS, has offered Moran and her children housing for at least six months.

"My heart is breaking because we have loved this woman and her children for an entire year and have given everything we have," McNamara said. "We've put our needs second in order to put her needs first."

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. They apparently don't love her enough

or they wouldn't be kicking her out.

[uppityperson]

82. Love means taking care of someone forever?

not in my book.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. They didn't take her in because they love her

They were trying to make themselves feel (and look?) good. They saw her on Oprah for Jesus sake! What do you wanna bet they wouldn't have done a damn thing if not for the glory of being on Oprah??

It is just one more example of people calling themselves 'Christians' because the sign in front of their church says they are. This woman with 3 small children will need a lot more than a year to get her life together. How ignorant of this church to assume they could magically fix her up in less than a year.

[uppityperson]

95. You seem to have no idea of what you are talking about here.

do you know this church? Do you know the UCC churches in general? Seems you have an axe to grind with "church" and "christians". I do not know this particular UCC church, but do know UCC and you are insulting us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. I am not insulting anyone

Just calling it like I see it. This church has obviously not worked with many poor people. You don't get out of poverty - after a hurricane! - in less than a year! LOL

[uppityperson]

110. You are insulting. This church has worked with many poor people.

You are insulting in saying that the only reason they took her in was because they were trying to make themselves look good. You are saying UCC does not do good works because it is the right thing to do, because we truly believe that, but because WE want only to look good. This is an insult.

Of course you don't get out of poverty, or recover, in less than a yr. However, if someone helps you, some group helps you, and cannot do so anymore, you take the help they can give and are thankful. You do not demand more than is able to be given.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. Nah you can always live in a car

Sorry we disagree but I honestly don't think this church would have reached out to this woman if they hadn't seen her on Oprah. Now that their rock star status is over, they are dumping her. Let her be someone else's problem. That is what is selfish, not what this woman is doing.

[uppityperson]

118. You are insulting UCC

you do not know my church, what they do, who they support.

[valerief]

120. They offer help to pregnant Katrina victims, give them a timeline,

and break their promise.

[uppityperson]

125. agreement was until June 2006. It is now August.

But Ryan said the church had a verbal agreement with Moran that she'd be able to stay until June 2006, when everyone would meet to "revisit" the matter. The church said in a statement Friday that members tried multiple times to meet with Moran and create a lease that "reflected the verbal agreement."

"She never responded to our numerous requests for that meeting," the statement said. "For that reason, there was no written, signed agreement."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Katrina_Illinois.html
(link that doesn't require registration)

[valerief]

127. Never place a period where God has placed a comma.

In 2004 the United Church of Christ began using paid commercial advertising to reach potential members, joining the United Methodist Church and others who have also begun such efforts. The multi-year "God Is Still Speaking" identity initiative was themed around a quote by Gracie Allen warning, "Never place a period where God has placed a comma."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ

[uppityperson]

133. what does that have to do with their agreement until June?

[valerief]

143. assured her she would be allowed to live in the parsonage until Dec 31

Moran acknowledges a debt of gratitude to those who have helped her, but she feels deceived by the church. She says it assured her that she would be allowed to live in the parsonage until Dec. 31. The church has asked her to leave by Aug. 31.

[uppityperson]

145. Verbal agreement was until June.

But Ryan said the church had a verbal agreement with Moran that she'd be able to stay until June 2006, when everyone would meet to "revisit" the matter. The church said in a statement Friday that members tried multiple times to meet with Moran and create a lease that "reflected the verbal agreement."

"She never responded to our numerous requests for that meeting," the statement said. "For that reason, there was no written, signed agreement."

[AZBlue]

263. She's the only one stating the Dec 31 date.

She's had almost a year with clothing, food, housing, car, and job and day care offers. She wouldn't be living in the lap of luxury by now (who is?) but she should be able to fend for herself some. She's gotten a lot more than most of the Katrina survivors got and she's done a lot less with it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

277. Yep that's what I see here too

[proud2BlibKansan]

203. Oh so this is YOUR church?

So tell us, were you watching Oprah when this woman was on? Did you help her move in? Are you on the committee that decided she needs to leave now?

No wonder you are defending this church. It is YOURS.

[Critters2]

207. What church is yours? And when wil it take over the aid of this woman?

[proud2BlibKansan]

275. Since I live about 1000 miles away that would be kind of silly

[LittleClarkie]

215. They mean the UCC denomination

I don't think this poster belongs to this congregation per se.

[Critters2]

217. Okay, proud2belib, what denomination is yours,

and when can it take this woman in?

[uppityperson]

222. I am UCC, yes. And yes, I know more about them than you do.

That is why I can defend them from false accusations you make against them.

I do not watch Oprah. I went to the gulf coast to help in September and April. I have donated much money, much stuff, sent many volunteers to help. I have helped my community prepare for disaster since we will be on our own. Yes, that is what I have done. And yes, I am a UCC member so am able to defend it against false accusations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

276. The problem here is not with the UCC

but with just one church.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

96. yeah...YOU know their motives

They actually do something christian...and you STILL slam them for it...

good grief...they weren't trying to fix her...they were just trying to help for the time that they could...

sP

[Critters2]

129. How many Katina victims are you housing? nt

[spacelady]

291. Oprah should take her in, it would not be a hardship for Oprah.

[MercutioATC]

328. Yeah! Damn that uncharitable, godless Oprah!

:evilgrin:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

89. they loved her more than most

by giving her ANYTHING...but all you see is that they had to stop...talk about missing the forest for the trees...

sP

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Did they think they were magically going to lift her out of poverty?

Do they get extra points to get to heaven now?

Yep, there is a forest here alright.

[Critters2]

136. Most UCCs don't believe in that kind of "heaven"

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. Oh yes I have spent many many years working with the poor

I know exactly what I am talking about.

[uppityperson]

188. Your reply makes no sense to what you are responding to.

Most UCCers don't believe in that kind of heaven. What does that have to do with your working with the poor?

[proud2BlibKansan]

197. And all you are doing is attacking my posts

[uppityperson]

214. calling you on your nonsensical answers. Not attacking.

You are insulting UCCers, this church in particular, saying they do good things to get into heaven. we respond that most UCCers don't believe in that sort of heaven. You respond to that by saying you have spent many years working with the poor. This doesn't make sense.

I do not think you know enough about UCC to be saying what you say about them. I am UCC and know that some of what you say is wrong about them/us. None of us know enough about this case to judge either the church or Ms. Moran. It is a difficult situation, based on the article bits. There were verbal agreements, assumptions, we do NOT know who all has done what all for whomall.

I will not judge Ms.Moran except to say it seems a very difficult thing to go through. Having 3 small kids must make her extremely tired, overwhelmed by that AND by being hurricaned and what all. UCC church took her in, with an agreement of helping through June. That was a very good thing to do.

That is what I can tell from the articles I have seen.

[proud2BlibKansan]

282. How do you know about this particular church?

Unless you live in this community, you don't know anything about them. To judge one church by an entire denomination is silly. I was raised Catholic and I can assure you there are VAST differences between parishes, depending on the communities they serve.

[MercutioATC]

313. ...and yet you're convinced you know their motivations. How "silly".

You stated that they only helped this woman to "look good".

If judging one church by an entire denomination is "silly", how silly is it to judge the motivations of one church with even LESS understanding of the denomination?

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

315. Which part of they are kicking her out

do you not comprehend?

[MercutioATC]

316. I understand that part just fine. What part of "until July 2006" gives

you difficulty?


...and none of that has anything to do with the fact that you said it was "silly" to judge one church by the denomination as a whole, yet you have no problem "enlightening" us to this church's true motivations, never having been a member of the church yourself.

[uppityperson]

141. Most UCCers don't believe in that kind of heaven.

you are showing your ignorance again.

[MercutioATC]

90. Was that a serious comment???

If you offer to help somebody who's fallen on hard times you're responsible to completely support them indefinitely? Is that what you're suggesting?

I can understand being upset about people not getting adequate support after Katrina....but blaming the church that took this woman and her children in for 11 months???

Where the hell does that come from?

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. How's that no grey area thinking working for you?

[MercutioATC]

122. You think MY thinking is "no grey area"???

I'm stating that this organization supported this woman for 11 months and while I sympathize with this woman for not being ready to mave on without assistance, it's atrocious to blame this church for that fact.

Actually, neither the woman nor the church need to be blamed.

You seem to be the one claiming that charity must be an all-or-nothing endeavor, which hardly shows any "grey-area thinking".

[bling bling]

107. Well you apparently don't love her either.

Or you'd offer her your own home.

See how it works? NO DIFFERENCE.

The church isn't the welfare system. The church is comprised of people like you and me who donate their money, food, clothing, furniture, whatever to people because they think it's the right thing to do. They can do as much as they want for as long as they want. It's not a contract. It's not an endless commitment.

I adopt a family every Christmas but I'm not able or willing to adopt the family for the rest of the year for the rest of their lives. Does that make me heartless too?

You're attitude about it is not only irrational and unreasonable but completely ridiculous. People don't have to do anything for anybody. But to call the ones who do heartless because they've done all they want to for someone is as wrong as me calling you heartless for not letting her live with you in the first place.

Why do I have a feeling you're not going to get it. Probably because I've found that people who look down on and only see the negative in everybody and everything, are generally the type of people who project their own issues onto everyone else. Until people like that find peace with themselves, they won't get it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. They are heartless for kicking her out

They gave her hope, now they are snatching it away. If poverty could be cured in 11 months, we wouldn't have many poor people in the USA. Think about THAT before you judge me or my motives.

And sure, she can live with me. You don't know me or you wouldn't have said that. I walk the walk AND talk the talk. And I don't do it to make myself look good.

[uppityperson]

114. That is good. Let us know how it goes please, having her live with you

or would that make you look good, make it look like you were taking her in to look good rather than to do good? hmm

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

128. Indefinitely?

Would you let her live at your place free of charge, including groceries and such, indefinitely?

They didn't have to help her at all, actually.

Why do you think they did it so as to look good? Do you know this church? Do you know this woman? As others have said on the thread, we don't know enough to condemn either one yet.

[Critters2]

138. Good

because right now, you don't look good. No matter what you're doing (and I doubt you're doing much, or you'd know how difficult it is).

[elehhhhna]

144. Perhaps they should have just let her stay in her tent? Jeez.

[proud2BlibKansan]

187. They could have just bought her an air conditioner then

or even sleeping bags for her kids maybe.

[Critters2]

Instead, they gave her free housing, food and a car

and it's not enough for you.

[valerief]

53. I agree. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. then no one should ever take someone in...

lest they stay forever and take all you have. You help someone...they decide to leave (for whatever reason) and you are now OBLIGATED to continue support? I guess only the rich can go that way...


sP

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. You help someone like this NOT because of what it costs you

but because you are a human being. There is no time limit on poverty. This church should never have taken her in in the first place, if they were thinking it would be a short term deal. You are talking to someone who has spent 30 years working with the poor. I DO know what I am talking about. And unfortunately, in bush's america, I can tell you this church is not the only one I have heard of to treat the poor in such a callous manner.

It could take her YEARS to rebuild her life. Now it will take even longer. My heart goes out to this woman.

[uppityperson]

71. I bet the church would appreciate your calling and offering to help her

maybe your church or group or just you could take her in and help her get back on her feet.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. We are helping many Katrina victims right here in my community

and yes, I am a part of those efforts. We also don't believe in kicking anyone out.

And you bet if I lived closeby, I would be calling this woman to offer my assistance.

Some of us really do put our money where our mouths are. :eyes:

[uppityperson]

86. That is good that your community is involved. Are you saying I'm not?

you realize she has 4 months left at the UCC church?

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. I am answering your command that I should get involved

Don't you read your own posts?

And no, the article says she has to move out at the end of the month, not in 4 months.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

92. it is not neo-con thinking that you are talking about

it is that people have to be able to make decisions to give or not to give without regard to timeframes/resources. You and proud2blib are simply saying that unless you can give FOREVER, then you better not start...otherwise we will hate you. And hate you do...

Another person missing the forest for the trees...

sP

[valerief]

98. I never said that. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Yes it is repulsive

but explains why so many don't last in social service professions. You have to learn to move way beyond selfishness. You also absolutely can NOT impose your economic and social values on the people you serve. That is exactly what is happening in this thread. It is also why conservatives don't ever understand the poor. They are too busy judging them.

[valerief]

101. I never realized there were so many DUers angry with Katrina victims.

What a charmed life they must all lead.

Edited to add:
I certainly think most DUers would sympathize with this woman. I was only referring above to the DUers who expressed anger over this woman's plight.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. It's an American trait

Hear about a disaster, write a check, then forget about it. Move on to the next cause du jour.

[Rosemary2205]

119. You both are totally out of line.

This group of church members didn't "write a check and move on". They fully and totally supported Ms. Moran for a full year. A WHOLE YEAR. And they've made sure she has a place to go for another 6 months. (WINGS) -- There is absolutely no basis on which to slam these church people. No basis whatsoever.

[valerief]

130. "Never place a period where God has placed a comma." n/t

[Rosemary2205]

139. A meaningless reply.

[valerief]

146. Tell that to UCC then. It's their saying. n/t

[uppityperson]

148. no, it is an advertising thing. Not our saying.

people should not assume things about churches they do not know about.

[valerief]

152. It's advertising UCC, isn't it?

[uppityperson]

154. advertising slogan for UCC. Not UCC saying. There is a difference

[valerief]

155. What's the difference? If it isn't UCC approved and paid for by UCC,

why would UCC allow it?

[uppityperson]

160. You do want to pick a fight don't you?

Advertising slogans are UCC approved, paid for, allowed by UCC. However, advertising slogans are not UCC sayings. "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "welcome" are UCC sayings. I have used these as a UCC member. Never heard anyone say that comma thing. See?

[valerief]

163. I don't want to pick a fight. I'm not angry. I wanted to understand

your point. I still do not.

[Critters2]

181. Why don't you contact the church and offer your place

since you're a better Christian than them? And remember, you have to let her stay forever. Otherwise, you're a hypocrite.

So, when can she move in?

[valerief]

190. Not a Christian. n/t

[uppityperson]

195. So? Bet Ms. Moran and kids would be happy to take you up on a place

to stay and help to get back up and going. Don't need to be Christian to do good works.

[Critters2]

204. What difference does that make? nt

[Critters2]

246. They've found her another place to live for another 6 months

That seems like a "comma" to me.

Or...she and the kids could stay at your place ad infinitum. That seems fair!

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. They are kicking her out!!

She isn't convenient to them anymore. I stand by my opinion. We aren't out of line; this church is.

[uppityperson]

182. they had an agreement. This is what it was.

But Ryan said the church had a verbal agreement with Moran that she'd be able to stay until June 2006, when everyone would meet to "revisit" the matter. The church said in a statement Friday that members tried multiple times to meet with Moran and create a lease that "reflected the verbal agreement."

"She never responded to our numerous requests for that meeting," the statement said. "For that reason, there was no written, signed agreement."

[proud2BlibKansan]

206. I'll bet they put it in writing from now on

Signing a contract with a poor person to offer help. Hmmm. Is that in the bible somewhere?

[uppityperson]

322. I bet they do too.

Taking advantage of an offer for help. Hmmm. Is that in the bible somewhere?

[MercutioATC]

97. Have you sold all of your possessions to help these people?

Your house? Your car? Your blood?

If not, you aren't doing everything you can to help them.

You set the standard. I'm just exposing its hypocrisy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. Oh give me a break

What have YOU done? You seem to know all the answers here.

[MercutioATC]

112. I'm not the one making the claim that charity must be limitless.

Once again, have you sold all of your possessions?

If not, what makes your version of charitable acts (which obviously have limits) any different than this church's?

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. When did I say THAT?

I have said repeatedly that a person doesn't rise out of poverty in less than a year. I have also not given a time limit. Try reading instead of putting words in my mouth.

[MercutioATC]

201. You've condemned the church for not providing more support

and declined to answer at what point the support they provided would be considered acceptable to you.

IS there a point at which, regardless of the actions of the recipient, one that's given support can be free from blame if that person then ceases to offer that support?

[proud2BlibKansan]

209. No I don't think you can or should put a limit on helping

someone in this situation.

How long will it take to rebuild New Orleans? I would say it will be at least that long before all the Katrina victims are back on their feet. And how long that will be is just a guess at this point.

[MercutioATC]

218. "Without limit" is the definition of "limitless", is it not?

Your disagreement with my statement was what, exactly?

[Rosemary2205]

74. "The church should never have taken her in"

when people bite the hand that feeds them, that is exactly what happens. Next time a crisis happens these church members might just decide to let someone else do it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

87. so if you have to set a limit on what you can give

then you should give nothing... nice.

sP

[azurnoir]

239. It seems that

Bushes America (really Reagan's America on steroids) has taken hold, what I've noticed is that most threads on poverty go uncommented, deafening silence. But I'll ask a question how many of you who say this women should "get herself together" what ever that means to you anything from suffer to find the no good fathers (she has a whole 3 weeks) to give her children up!!! are under 35? The reason I ask is if so then you were raised in an America were homelessness is the norm and the homeless no matter who they are deserve their condition, as to the poor- "A poor man in America shames us all" is taken to mean the polar opposite of what it was meant to. This is not age bashing, it is bash the culture you were raised in.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

283. Yep, because, being a church, they are automatically bad people.

Those people supported her for 11 months, she didn't even try to get herself on her feet. She just kept using their hospitality. She was avoiding. She's at fault here. Quit blaming the kind people who took her in. At some point, they have to take care of themselves, and maybe they can't do that and take care of her anymore. I don't see why that's such a bad thing.
Duckie

[ProdigalJunkMail]

44. but you judge the church right off...

never mind that they did an incredible service and gave a wonderful GIFT to this person and her family for the last 11 months.

sP

[valerief]

38. She just had a baby 4 months ago and has two other babies. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

41. and they need the space

for WHATEVER reason...it is the church's space. Should they allow her to stay forever? You are critizing them for ending support THEY NEVER HAD TO OFFER and certainly not for 11 months.

sP

[MercutioATC]

40. She expected them to support her forever?

They gave her support without asking anything in return. How are they in the wrong by saying that she needs to find another place to live after they've been supporting her for 11 months ?

[progressivebydesign]

81. IN FOUR MONTHS.. they are giving her FOUR more months..

That's the issue, they are giving her yet another four months to get her shit together.

[valerief]

2. Yeah, why can't she get one, two, or even three full time jobs

even though she has those babies to take care of?

Bootstraps. Self-sufficient. Ownership society. What a load of crap those lip-service churches pass out.

Wonder if Oprah will have her on again.

[GrumpyGreg]

5. In 11 months she should have got her act together. I don't blame the

church. I'm sure they can use the resources to give others a temporary helping hand.

The babies must have fathers---let them help !

[uppityperson]

7. Did you read the second page of article?

McNamara said hosting the family has been "an incredible blessing." But the church community has provided all the help and resources it could muster over the past 11 months to help Moran get on her feet. Day care and job opportunities have been offered, McNamara said.

"I'm certain there are thousands of people in Illinois or anywhere across the country who, if they were given the opportunity to live rent-free in a home the entire year and have their needs met, would seize the opportunity and change their life in such a way that the future would be radically different," McNamara said.

Help is still available

Other agencies are willing to help Moran immediately, McNamara said. The not-for-profit Women in Need Growing Stronger, or WINGS, has offered Moran and her children housing for at least six months.

"My heart is breaking because we have loved this woman and her children for an entire year and have given everything we have," McNamara said. "We've put our needs second in order to put her needs first."

[Lars39]

14. Sounds like the preacher wants to move back in.

[valerief]

15. Sounds like that to me, too. n/t

[Lars39]

65. I bet they also pay the utilities and insurance for the parsonage.

And they can get by with not paying the preacher as much if he gets free housing.

[Critters2]

147. Nearly all clergy get housing provided

and salaries take this into account.

Why shouldn't the pastor (who may not be a "he" in the UCC) not have a place to live? S/he has allowed this family to live here for 11 months. How many other clergy have done the same?

[cigsandcoffee]

12. Three babies she can't afford...

She might want to think about adoption, or asking a relative to care for them until she can get her life back together.

I can understand a person having an accident, and falling in to a situation where they have a child that they can't afford. But three of them? Where the hell is the father here?

[uppityperson]

16. as above, read the article

" Thompson, the father of Keziah and Kaedin, does not live with Moran and can't support them at this time, she said."

[cigsandcoffee]

23. I'd say he'd better figure out a way to support them.

They're his responsibility.

[valerief]

17. He dumped her. Men do that, you know. n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

21. Dumping her doesn't alleviate his responsibility to the kids.

He needs to get his act together, and support the kids he was apparently happy to create. What a jerk.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. What if he is in prison or dead?

How ludicrous to judge him.

[uppityperson]

46. please look to post #44

Who can judge this woman, the church, the father? Who can critisize based on the info in this 1 article?

[cigsandcoffee]

61. If he was dead, the article would have said so.

If he's in prison, he should have thought of his family before breaking the law.

How the hell would going to prison excuse him? Are you kidding?

[Freedom_Aflaim]

116. If he's in prison wouldnt that be HIS fault ???

btw, I reserve the right to judge anyone I choose. I suspect that you do also.

If the father is dead, Im imagine that would be quite newsworthy for the article.

Except for the highly unlikely sceneraio that the father is dead. He is a deadbeat and a bad person for not supporting his children.

[Critters2]

151. He's done NOTHING to help his own progeny

and you don't think he should be judged. The church, otoh, has helped HIS family for 11 months, and you can't cut them any slack.

Smacks of paternalism.

[Critters2]

184. Doesn't make it anyone else's reponsibility nt

[MercutioATC]

329. SOME men. There are those of us who don't, you know.

...just objecting to the generality, not the fact that some men are irresponsible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Yes all these welfare queens should just give their babies away!!

Mass sterilization!! Write your congress critters.

How dare these people breed!

:sarcasm:

[valerief]

56. Especially the ones that got pregnant before Katrina hit! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. And I need another AMEN!

[uppityperson]

60. snort.

almost took offense here, then saw who/what you were responding too.

[cigsandcoffee]

68. Sorry, I didn't know you were offering to pay for her kids.

That's big of you. When will you be sending the monthly checks?

[stepnw1f]

268. Maybe When Poor People have Children They Can't Afford

they can sell them off to pay for their debt. Then the child can be an indentured servant. :sarcasm:

I believe what the Church did was nice initially, but this story really makes you wonder what the Church's real spiel is... do them mean what they preach. Interesting and tragic....

[Critters2]

271. How much help are they required to give her?

And don't those kids of a father?

[stepnw1f]

273. Why Does it Matter

I thought God wanted his flock to practice unconditional love...?

Nah kidding.... maybe they should have found a way to get her on her feet again? Seems a bit cruel, especially for a church. You don't think they took her in because she was on the Oprah Wimphrey Show do you? I mean... would the Church benefit from such a PR stunt, and if so, wouldn't that be considered shameful and unchristian?

I don't know... it all seems very interesting to me. A bit of reality has sprung through for all to see a church in it's finest. That's why so many are so defensive.... it's pretty obvious to me. I'd be ashamed if my church did this. Bad move, politically speaking...

[YellowRubberDuckie]

285. People who can't afford children should not be having them.

I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it's too easy in this day and age to not get pregnant.
Duckie

[spacelady]

308. Well, you said it, she is 23 years old with 3 children, don't these grown

women bear some responsibility for their choices? Or maybe they aren't grown yet and should take advantage of the very effective birth control available? How dare she keep breeding?

[uppityperson]

3. Complicated issue here

Sounds tough for all, hard to tell what is going on with it all. UCC is a good church, good to put her up, wonder what has/is being done to help her move on. Wonder what hasn't. Hard to tell from this. Interesting last name she has too.

[elehhhhna]

4. Looks like the church did evrything BUT give her lifetime support.

Last 2 para's:

Other agencies are willing to help Moran immediately, McNamara said. The not-for-profit Women in Need Growing Stronger, or WINGS, has offered Moran and her children housing for at least six months

"My heart is breaking because we have loved this woman and her children for an entire year and have given everything we have," McNamara said. "We've put our needs second in order to put her needs first."

PLEASE read the whole article (both pages) before jumping in , DUers.

[valerief]

8. She just had a baby 4 months ago. She was pregnant the whole

time before with a little baby less than a year old! The father of the kids took off! The church doesn't believe in abortion!

What was she supposed to do?

[uppityperson]

9. You do realize "the church" is UCC, right?

The same ones that put out the ad awhile back saying gays were welcome. Not sure what "the church doesn't believe in abortion" has to do with anything here.

[Rosemary2205]

13. 11 months is long enough to

get signed up with Illinois social services. Her residence at the parsonage is her legal address and she became a legal resident of Illinois after 3 months at the parsonage. There are a great number of Katrina families that have been moved out of FEMA housing because they qualified for social services housing assistance. By all indications this woman definately qualifies.

[elehhhhna]

20. Uh, hate to be cold but track down the fathers

and file for child support, for starters. She's had time.

How was she going to support these kids BEFORE Katrina?

[Rosemary2205]

6. She does have a place to go.

WINGS will take her in for 6 months.

[Lars39]

80. And then what?

Is there a 6 week wait for public housing in that area, or will she be out on the streets?
Will she have free or near-free childcare so that her minimum wage job will stretch farther?

[progressivebydesign]

85. Hmm.. she has 4 months left at the church.. 6 months in WINGS.

I don't know, are you expecting the church to support this woman and her kids forever??

[Lars39]

124. The move to Wings would be another upheaval, another adjustment.

I don't see how that would be in her best interests.

[MercutioATC]

140. 6 more months of a roof over her head, maybe?

Without knowing the specifics, I'd have to say that a roof is better than no roof.

[TexasLawyer]

10. Cautionary tale

The saddest thing of all is the message this story sends to other church groups, organizations and individuals that might think of lending someone a helping hand--

Don't offer shelter lest you run into a grasping ingrate who you will have great difficulty getting rid of.

[B Calm]

18. The saddest thing is the cons will label her as a liberal!

[uppityperson]

26. another sad thing is people will pass judgment without knowing enough

they will read this story and make judgements on her or the church based on the little bit the story says. That also is sad.

[B Calm]

34. True, but with my life experiences with people, she's acting like a Repub

-lican..

[Fleshdancer]

137. she's acting like an overwhelmed woman....possibly depressed

the signs are there but once again, people refuse to see them.

[B Calm]

309. Hell I'm depressed too. Under Bush I now work for 1986 wages.

But I'm not on my ass, instead I'm out there working.

[Rosemary2205]

36. I'd think the saddest thing is

a woman with 3 kids she doesn't know how to support. How scary that must be.

[Jacobin]

73. Yep.

People are not 'entitled' to be helped by a church beyond what they are willing to do.

I suspect there is more to this story and that the church thinks she may be abusing her situation by not seeking other avenues to support her family

[uppityperson]

39. WHO KNOWS ENOUGH TO PASS JUDGEMENT?

really DUers, this is amazing. Reading everything from the father dumped her, to she is taking advantage of the church, to the church doesn't believe in abortions, to the church is horrible for kicking her out. Who here knows enough about this woman, the father of the kids, the church's offer and obligation, what who has done for whom, or not?

How about: I read the whole article and think this was a really nice thing for a church to do. I hope the best to them all. I wonder if she has gotten registered with (fill in the blank)? How about doing any of that and not just jumping to conclusions?

argh. rant off.

[blonndee]

45. Thank you! I don't know enough to pass judgment. I wish her well. nt

[Hawkowl]

132. Why don't you take her?

Why don't you take her in, if you feel this strongly? Or maybe she can come to your church?

[blonndee]

149. Are you speaking to me? n/t

[blonndee]

169. Since you didn't respond, I'll assume you meant to reply to

someone else, since my statement, "Thank you! I don't know enough to pass judgment. I wish her well" can hardly be described as "feeling this strongly." :eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

49. STOP THAT RIGHT NOW

people might start to think before responding...

sP

[uppityperson]

55. I LIKE TO TYPE IN CAPS WHEN ANNOYED!

thanks, sigh.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

70. please don't take that as a shot at you :-)

I was simply shouting at you to make sure you realize that thought is not required to post here and you were challenging that precept.

sP

[uppityperson]

77. no problem, I didn't, I agree

read a little bit of something, jump to a conclusion and defend it forever, while mxing in whatever a hot button issue is for you. Hey, did you hear about Mel?

[Jacobin]

78. The church, more than likely

They are there. We are not.

They have no obligation to assist her family any longer than they wish to

[progressivebydesign]

84. I know enuff to see that she has been there a year..

the church gave her a free car, free housing, free everything.. and she has not gotten her shit together enough to function in the world. They are giving her four months to get it together. What's so hard to grasp about this?

[valerief]

51. Doesn't the Bush admin and his Congress give all kinds of

religious funds to churches so that they can help people? Maybe that was just a bad dream I had.

[Critters2]

158. Not to UCC churches it doesn't

I just read a study last week showing the vast majority of that money goes to Evangelicals.

[valerief]

174. Interesting. I didn't think the denomination would matter. n/t

[uppityperson]

177. I think UCC is too librul to tie itself to what bushites want them to do

Go UCC

[progressivebydesign]

72. A year sounds like enough time to get back on your feet..

especially with all of the freebies. I don't see this as particularly cold... it gives a bad name to people in need, when she's been given every opportunity.

[Fleshdancer]

94. there's no such thing as a lazy mother of THREE KIDS.

Could anyone here do any better in this situation?

In 11 months she has endured losing everything, the birth of a third child and the healing time that is involved post labor, moving to a new town, getting a new job and taking care of three young children. This is assuming she isn't experience post-partum depression given the fact that she has gone through just about EVERY major life stress in less than a year.

It's easy to just assume she's lazy but much harder to consider that she may be dealing with depression or other issues that she can't handle on her own. Could you do it? Could you do it in just 11 months?

She was told she had until Dec 31 and now her only support system has changed its mind and is ending their support on Aug 31. Sounds like passing judgment on this young woman is just too easy and too tempting. God help us all if this is the "faith based initiative" we all have to look forward too.

[Rosemary2205]

102. Passing judgement

Oh, no doubt Ms. Moran needs community support. I just don't understand why the church supporting her by giving her a place to live for a year while she works out more permanant resources is a bad thing.

[Fleshdancer]

121. the signs of post-partum depression are staring right at us

There are so many red flags in this article and my fear is that something will go terribly wrong with this woman and/or her children and we will look back and think "well gee, maybe depression is the reason why she didn't work out more permanent resources".

I've experienced post-partum depression and it was a hell too difficult to describe. I was fortunate enough to have a solid support system and a husband who was man enough to not abandon his family when he was needed the most. I couldn't possibly have pulled everything together in just 11 months if I was in her situation, even with the wonderful community support.

[MercutioATC]

131. Bill Frist? Is that you?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Long-distance diagnoses seldom prove to be accurate, however.


...but I'm certainly not minimizing the seriousness of post-partum depression.

[Fleshdancer]

150. and yet everyone can diagnose her as lazy? how cute.

Somewhere out there a woman has lost everything and is supporting three kids on her own. So far she doesn't appear to be too successful at it. Let's just all hope that you're right and I'm wrong because the last thing we want is to read another story about a mother who obviously needed help but drowned her kids instead.

[uppityperson]

153. which "everyone" is diagnosing her as lazy?

I don't see that. I see that she is having a really hard time, hurricane, kids, etc. Was helped by UCC church, now time to get other help. Lazy? Not at all. Overwhelmed? Sure as shit should be.

[Fleshdancer]

192. mea culpa, not everyone is doing this but...

there are some who are judging her as lazy in this thread. I still stand by my thoughts that the warning signs for depression are there and I hope she is able to get the help she may need.

[uppityperson]

202. She does need help. My goodness, having 3 kids that young

may be totally sleep deprived at the least. Poor woman.

[MercutioATC]

157. I haven't seen many "lazy" accusations here...just "ungrateful"

Whether she's lazy or not is immaterial.

What does matter are her complaints about an organization that completely supported her for 11 months.

Hell, she may be suffering from post-partum depression. I'm just stating that the article posted in the OP doesn't contain enough information to make that determination.

[Fleshdancer]

211. is she complaining? it sounds more like a misunderstanding on the

time frame.

The article states that she "acknowledges a debt of gratitude to those who have helped her, but she feels deceived by the church. She says it assured her that she would be allowed to live in the parsonage until Dec. 31. The church has asked her to leave by Aug. 31."

[Critters2]

159. WHY is she supporting three kids on her own?

Where are the fathers? Why is this the church's respnsibility?

[valerief]

176. Maybe her religion forbids birth control. n/t

[Critters2]

189. That still makes her, and the father(s) responsible for the kids. nt

[Fleshdancer]

220. I want the fathers to be there too

I have no idea why any man would father a child and then willingly leave without providing even minimal support. It's cruel.

As far as questioning what the responsibility is of the church (of all churches for that matter) we better tackle this question before this administration goes any further with privatizing social services through the churches with their faith-based initiative concept. If churches start to receive federal money for helping the homeless and victims of natural disasters/ etc, what should our expectations be? That's a very good question and I would love to see this discussion in a separate thread.

In this particular case, I think the church and the community treated her very well. It looks like there was a misunderstanding about the time frame though and that's unfortunate.

[EFerrari]

175. Yes, you are. n/t

[MercutioATC]

178. No, I'm pointing out the unrelaibility of long-distance diagnoses...

..there's a distinct difference.

[EFerrari]

198. Okay. Go back to your first post in this thread and see if

it meets your own criteria.

Not trying to upset you, Merc. It just is what it is.

[MercutioATC]

210. I'm not upset and I stand by that statement.

I said it was atrocious behavior to accept charity from an organization for 11 months and then complain because you weren't ready to give it up.


What does that have to do with post-partum depression?

[EFerrari]

221. Coupla things. We don't really know what happened, do we?

And, most healthy women have a 14 month recovery period after giving birth. That means, their moods and energy level and cognitive ability is messed with by this whole birth giving thing.

PPD would add a whole 'nother layer to that situation.

That's all.

[MercutioATC]

241. Again, I'm saying that diagnosing PPD from an article is unreliable.

...not that she does or doesn't have PPD.

[EFerrari]

244. Oh, I completely agree with you on that. n/t

[Rosemary2205]

134. I don't expect her to pull it together in 11 months

I don't expect the church to be financially and emotionally responsible for her and her children forever either. I think it's fabulous they stepped forward in a time of great need to offer a temporary solution instead of leaving her out there in parking lot. I really do not understand why Ms. Moran is slamming them or why anyone on here is either.

[knitter4democracy]

324. I agree.

I saw that in the article, too. She was preggers when Katrina happened, which had to be amazingly scary, and she probably lived in fear of losing her baby and her other babies. Sheesh--I think only a year isn't long enough for her. She needs time to heal.

What's with the time limit anyway? Is there a time limit on God's grace or something?

[valerief]

105. Well said. n/t

[EFerrari]

117. Exactly. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BEING

THE LAZY MOTHER OF THREE KIDS.

11 months? Most women don't even have their CHEMISTRY back in order by then.

What is the MATTER with people?

The most disgusting thing is, a competent social worker or advocate or even HUMAN BEING could probably help this lady find a workable solution short and long term in the time this thread was written.

edit.

[Llewlladdwr]

323. You apparently never met my ex-wife.

n/t

[Bake]

142. Some apparently just like bashing churches ... any church

I am appalled at the "then they shouldn't have taken her in" attitude. This church is one of the GOOD ones. It PUT its money, property, heart, and compassion "where its mouth is."

Some people do need a little incentive to start taking responsibility for their own lives. This church gave a hand up when the lady had no place to turn.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Bake

[EFerrari]

162. Some well meaning "helpers" should get a clue about

what women go through PHYSICALLY the year after giving birth.

While losing everything they have in a disaster.

Geezus.

[EFerrari]

172. And, question: is the word "Katrina" used as a preface

now code for "people we vilify because we're too effen irresponsible to deal with"?

I love these free, privatized United States of Amnesia.

[Critters2]

191. The church helped her for 11 months

which is more than anyone else did.

[EFerrari]

200. Yes? And? n/t

[spacelady]

317. As in everything changed after Katrina?

[Rosemary2205]

173. Next time they might think twice about helping.

After this kind of response it would not surprise me if they leave people out in the parking lot next time. -- which would be a real tragedy.

[EFerrari]

216. After "this kind of response"?

:wtf:

I work in the homeless community. I do it because it's right. I'm not looking for a "response".


Are you really "helping" if you're doing it for a reward?

How should traumatized people "respond"? The whole point of having an advocate is to help you out while you can't do for yourself. Not to dictate to your traumatized self when you *should* be better.

Help me, God.

What if I told my schizophrenic husband today: "Honey, you're time is UP! On your feet! My arbitrary timetable tells me so."

:eyes:

[Critters2]

219. They DID help her

They had no obligation to her, but they gave her free housing, food, and a car for 11 months. Now she needs to look to other sources for help--and the church has even done some of that looking for her. What would be enough to satisfy you?

[EFerrari]

225. When did this become about me?

I thought we were talking about a post partum, traumatized mother who was being asked to take a hike by a clueless church group?

:)

[uppityperson]

226. did you read this?

But Ryan said the church had a verbal agreement with Moran that she'd be able to stay until June 2006, when everyone would meet to "revisit" the matter. The church said in a statement Friday that members tried multiple times to meet with Moran and create a lease that "reflected the verbal agreement."

"She never responded to our numerous requests for that meeting," the statement said. "For that reason, there was no written, signed agreement."

[Critters2]

228. It became about you when you started judging others

Something about a log in your own eye.

And where does she use the word "traumatized" in describing herself?

Paternalism is really an ugly thing to behold.

[EFerrari]

230. That's hilarious. Paternalism?

Have you ever given birth? That's trauma.

Have you ever been flooded out of your home? That's also trauma.

I love it when "paternalism" is drug out like a stinky rug when simple common sense observation would do just as well.

:hi:

[Critters2]

232. Common sense says 11 months of free housing, food and

transportation is beyond generous. And the appropriate response to generosity is "thank you", not "I want more".

And it is paternalistic to assume this woman can't get on her feet when others have.

[EFerrari]

Nope. Go fish on the recovery time from a delivery

for women who don't develop PPD.

Really. Get a fact in hand, get a clue before you lunge at these conclusions.

[Critters2]

240. I've never known any woman who took 14 months to go back to work

get back into activities, etc after giving birth. Not one. I guess they should all have had churches footing their bills.

[EFerrari]

243. I believe that you have never known what it takes for women

to resume their normal life after giving birth.

[Critters2]

245. Again, I've never seen a woman take that long to resume activities

after giving birth. Do I just know remarkably strong women?

[uppityperson]

247. could be. There is no 1 right answer most of the time

Everyone is different. Most my friends worked until the day they gave birth, some didn't and felt bad but figured out that was ok too since we each do what we must. Having 3 small kids, having been hurricaned, hard to tell.

[Critters2]

249. My contract, and that of my colleagues

allows 2 months of family leave after giving birth. I don't know of anyone who has asked for more. Why is this woman different, and what difference does it make in the church's kindness in helping her for 11 months?

[EFerrari]

248. Maybe if you haven't seen it, it isn't true?

:shrug:

[Critters2]

250. Or it is true just because you make the claim,

is that it?

[EFerrari]

252. Well, now there's a good point.

I left my youngest at 6 months to feed our family, felt like hell for months and he didn't do well, either.

But, that's just our experience. What's yours? And, what can you report from your research?

lol

[Critters2]

253. You should have found some church to give you everything you

needed for a year. And if they wouldn't you could condemn them as unfeeling.

But, instead, you dealt with it, apparently. You missed your chance!

[EFerrari]

254. There's a compelling argument. n/t

[Critters2]

256. I must admit

I'm curious as to how many Katrina evacuess you're housing, feeding, and clothing.

[EFerrari]

258. I sprung for one website which was about what my recently

out of homelessness family could fund.

And I am curious as to how many women you have tracked post partum, because it sounds as if you think babies are found in cabbage patches.

:)

[Critters2]

262. I actually know real, live women

The kind who have children, AND careers, and do both, somehow.

And as for your snide remarks about my not being a mother, there are still physical reasons why some of us aren't. But I know women like you, who believe you're REAL women because you have.

[EFerrari]

265. I have made no snide remarks about you.

And to the contrary, fertility isn't my measure of womandhood.

Sorry to dash your stereotype.

[spacelady]

320. Yes, it can be true in rare cases, why do you think it is true in this

case? Perhaps you can visit and make your diagnosis from facts. Or if you can't why not spring for a psychotherapist to make a determination so that you will know how to prepare to let the church know how to deal with this situation?

[uppityperson]

234. you answered below, thanks.

I think you mean assuming that someone cannot take care of themselves, are not capable of being a responsible contributing adult, hence being paternalized, being taken care of by daddy. I think this is what you mean by the term here? I understand what you mean if this is what you mean.

[EFerrari]

227. I'm sure it will be a learning experience all the way 'round. n/t

[earth mom]

156. 3 kids Under 5?! That's a FULL TIME JOB!

Wow, I'm really shocked to see the replies on this thread...far too many of them remind me of the rethuglican meme about people pulling themselves up by their boot straps etc. :eyes:

I mean OMG-THREE KIDS!!! Under FIVE YEARS OLD!!! Do people even get how damned difficult that is for a stay at home mom who has the other parent around to help out?! Let alone trying to do it by yourself after being washed out of your home and displaced thousands of miles from family or friends who care enough about you to help out on a daily basis?!

Jeez, I'm really disgusted with the holier than attitude I'm seeing here. I really am. You can't judge any person until you've walked a mile in their shoes! That so called "church" and it's parishoners should be ashamed of themselves! When they took this on, they owned it to that mom to help her get a new start. PERIOD. They FAILED completely and totally. I do not see any "Compassionate Christianity" at work here! :grr:

[uppityperson]

164. do you really feel you know enough to judge either the woman or church?

Do you really believe you know all of what they have done to help her? Do you really believe you know all of what she has done? Do you really believe you know enough about the situation to judge either this woman or this church?

[Critters2]

165. So, she and the kids can stay at your house?

If not, you are in no position to judge this church. They gave her food, housing, a car for 11 months. More than most--even most churches--would have done. She should say "thank you" and start looking up the father(s) of those kids for support.

[Lars39]

168. So you and your 3 kids under 5 have been homeless?

[Critters2]

171. If I had 3 kids under 5, their father would be taking some responsibility

for them.

And, if I were offered free food and housing for 11 months, my response would be a polite and sincere "Thank you!".

[Lars39]

179. You don't know why he isn't.

You don't know what kind of pregnancy and delivery that this woman has had to recuperate from.
You don't know what kind of trauma from Katrina she is still trying to get over.
There's a lot that you don't know about her,
yet you are determining that she should do things the way that you would or have the capabilities of doing.

[Rosemary2205]

186. None of that matters when judging the church.

they did a nice thing. For that they are being trashed. I really hope the next pregnant woman that needs help doesn't get left out in the parking lot.

[Critters2]

194. I do know that she was given 11 months of free housing, food and a car

Which a lot of women in her situation have not had.

[Bake]

170. No compassion? Get real!

They took her in, gave her a place to live, and supported her for a year. The US government sure as hell didn't lift a finger to help.

Like I said, no good deed goes unpunished.

Bake

[Codeine]

297. They didn't *owe her* shit.

But they helped her anyway, out of compassion, and in doing so probably did more to help a Katrina victim that 99.9% of the denizens of this message board did! Now they've reached the end of their ability to help, but even then they've put her in touch with others that can give her additional assistance, and having the children makes her eligible for state and federal aid.

Let up on these people. They don't have an obligation to house this lady indefinitely -- they've housed and fed her and her little ones for almost a year and gave her a car to help her do the daily tasks she needs to do, she should be thankful that they chose to give her some help.

They've done more than most will ever do.

[kiteinthewind]

321. You hit the nail on the head. What hardened people there are on here.

Jesus loves, and He loves unconditionally.

I see this sort of attitude on a regular basis, but usually from those "Compassionate Conservative" Christians, you know the one's that judge you and tell you why you are in the situation you're in because you just must not be trusting God enough in your life. I am so sad to hear so-called progressives behaving this way. You ARE judging her, no matter how many times you say you're not, you have made a judgement about her and her circumstances. I refuse to argue with some of you, but I just say, I am very sad that you have so much anger in your life.

"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love." Ephesians 4:2
:cry:

[WI_DEM]

161. I think they are right. But they need to give her time

what they should have done is say, "Ok, we are doing this for a limited amount of time--one year" or whatever...and during that time you must prepare yourself to leave. I think what they did was very decent for almost a year.

Never mind I see the verbal agreement was for June of this year--and that she declined to meet with them to "revisit the issue". I wonder if they have child care at that church? if so, they should offer her child care while she seeks a job.

[uppityperson]

166. they did. here is from article

But Ryan said the church had a verbal agreement with Moran that she'd be able to stay until June 2006, when everyone would meet to "revisit" the matter. The church said in a statement Friday that members tried multiple times to meet with Moran and create a lease that "reflected the verbal agreement."

"She never responded to our numerous requests for that meeting," the statement said. "For that reason, there was no written, signed agreement."

[EFerrari]

167. What they did was laudable. That anyone has to rely on

the kindness of strangers in a disaster is a disaster.

Especially a woman recovering from childbirth whose chemistry is out to lunch for most of that first year.

This is what we have been reduced to.

[pooja]

205. hate to flame more... but I was affected by a hurricane.. literally

had to move than less than a week, continue working 2 jobs, and worry about a child... sorry, if I can do it, so can anyone else. Its been a year. Get off your ass and do something for yourself. This is the greatest country in the world. people risk life and limb to get here and work hard to be something. Take the charity, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, but seriously in a year it time to get your shit together. they have other resoponsibilities and other families to help. Everyday she sits there, another family down on their luck is sitting in a homeless shelter.

[blonndee]

208. Um...she did have a job, the article reports.

No comment on the rest of your statement.

[pooja]

223. in a whole year she couldn't find a job? bull shit!!!!!

[blonndee]

224. She HAD a job. Read the article. n/t

[pooja]

233. and she left when her boss was fired to focus on children...

sorry, that doesn't happen at my house. I would love to sit around and "focus on children" just because I hated my job, but then reality sets in and I still have to house and feed those children. And where's the boyfriend now... I don't see anything about them.

[blonndee]

236. Well, good to know you have the moral high ground, then.

I guess you know better than she what she's capable of doing. :eyes:

[Critters2]

238. What you need...

is a church to take care of you!!! :sarcasm:

[pooja]

242. I would not be too proud to take help when I needed it, but making

excuses for people just because they went through a hurricane doesn't fly when you've gone through and dealt with them yourself. Compassion is there. The struggle, the hardship, the heat, the loss, the re-building, the devastation, the feeling of homelessness is overwhelming and nausiating. I've never cried so many tears or relied on my church for so much strength. But thats a huge peice.. We heal, we help each other, we survive and we go on. So, yes I get pissed at people still using the hurricanes as an excuse. Besides, after Katrina, there were gift cards amounting to $2000.oo... I certainly didn't receive something so helpful like that after any hurricane's I have ever gone through.

[Critters2]

212. Thank you for that,

and all the best!

[Lars39]

213. You didn't mention if you were pregnant and had another child

to add to that mix.

[pooja]

229. sorry, I didn't happen to be preggers then, but dealing with a child

2 jobs, a move, and nobody to help is pretty damn hard. And I'm sorry but unless I last checked, human gestation is approx. 9mo. Its been 11mo. since the hurricane. I don't think the church would be throwing her out, had they not tried to help place her. Its time for them to take on other people. I'm sorry for all people dealing with the tragic losses that result from hurricanes. But this is America. Pull your boot straps up and do. We didn't win our freedom by pissing and moaning.. we did. Time to do. Its obvious that govt is not there to help.

[Lars39]

231. Gee and haw!

Drop the baby by the trail and cook supper for the men, next day ride 15 miles on the Oregan Trail.
And you actually said 'boot straps'. :shakes head:

[Critters2]

235. That assumes there's a man around

which, for some reason, there wasn't in this case. So, a church took his place as breadwinner.

[pooja]

237. i get a lot of expressions from my mother... it always shocks the

hell out of people my age... and I learned those in hippy ass Vermont. Yes its called a hard shell. Its called survival. Its called initiative. Its called hard work. Sorry, but it is. Before I let my children suffer, I will work 3 jobs and use babysitters.

[countingbluecars]

251. Quite a thread.

I did not realize there are so many "compassionate conservatives" on DU.

Personally, I think it should be the mission of any church to feed, clothe, and shelter the poor in their time of need. If there was a misunderstanding on the departure date for this mother and her children, the church should give them the benefit of the doubt on the move out date.

[Critters2]

255. Which would require her meeting with them, which she has refused to do

[pooja]

257. There is compassion and help and then there is taking advantage of

[B Calm]

261. Food, clothing and even a car... This dead beat is out to beat

the system, just like a conservative..

[BooScout]

266. READ THE ARTICLE....

specifically page 2. They have and continue to give her the benefit of the doubt. She's ignoring the church. She's had all sorts of offers of jobs, day care, etc. The church has done it's part. Now it's up to her.

[earth mom]

267. You said it-The "compassionate conservatives" abound on this thread!

:eyes:

[earth mom]

272. Bottom line: The church is kicking the mom & her kids to the curb!

First off to those who replied to my other post upthread....I did NOT say that the church should take care of the mom & her kids forever. Nor did I offer to care for them, so don't even go there with such straw man b.s.!

However...

The truth of the matter is that the church failed the task they so FREELY & WILLINGLY choose to take on. And now they want to paint this unlucky woman as selfish and lazy?! Sorry, but that is total Bullshit! The selfish and lazy finger needs to be pointed back at the church and their members who aren't willing to solve the "problem" in an ethical and compassionate way rather than just kicking that "problem" to the curb. :grr:

WWJD? Hmm?

[MercutioATC]

274. The church agreed to provide housing until July 2006. They did that.

That's the task they "so FREELY & WILLINGLY choose to take on", and they've done even more than that.

I'm willing to provide $100 to a charity...let's say Easter Seals. I provide that amount. Easter Seals then asks for more money and I decline (for whatever reason). You're really suggesting that the "lazy and selfish finger" needs to be pointed at me because I made a gift but didn't give more?

[earth mom]

279. Walk a mile in that moms shoes...oops you can't because you're a guy.

So do you have kids? And if so, have you ever been in this womans situation-young, with 3 kids under 5, living far away from everything you ever knew as well as family and friends? Plus faced with having to work and find childcare for kids that young-which is so expensive it's ridiculous?!

I'm a mom and have 1 child. And I will say that it was overwhelming for me at first and I was in my mid thirties with a husband! I can't imagine being so young and having 3 kids under 5 and trying to make it as a single parent with not even a friend or family member in sight! That's why I "get it."

And one more thing. The church took her in for what? To look good? To puff their egos up by saying that they were doing good work? Or did they take her in to actually HELP her?! If they were trying to help, dId they succeed?! HELL NO! They didn't do anything but help her stay stuck in the same damn place she was when Katrina hit! That's ZERO help in my book! And I don't give a damn how much money or stuff they gave her. It wasn't the right kind of help and now they are trying to blame her for their mistake. Screw them and their so called "help". :grr:

[MercutioATC]

286. You seem to be confusing two separate issues.

1) This woman and her children are in need of continued help. That's true. It's unfortunate that they're in this situation, but they are. I don't blame them for this...it's just a fact.

I don't think we disagree so far.

2) This church housed her, provided her a car and gave her at least $3000 over an 11-month period. The original offer was that they would provide housing for her until July 2006. She accepted. July has come and gone. They need the space for their Pastor. They've done more than they said they would and they kept this woman and her children off of the streets for 11 months. Their obligation is complete and they should be lauded for their generosity.

That's where we seem to disagree.

Perhaps the disconnect is due to the perception of their original offer. The article states that they agreed to provide housing until July 2006. You seem to believe that they promised to completely support her until she was capable of, and willing to, support herself. I haven't seen anything to support that view.

Do you believe that somebody who agrees to help another in a specific way deserves condemnation if they fulfill their offer (and then some), but the recipient of that aid isn't able (for whatever reason) to capitalize on it?

[earth mom]

299. No...The disconnect is yours.

The disconnect is yours because you are summing up that a dollar bill and a place to stay as generous and oh so wonderful when it's done NOTHING to improve the moms situation.

The church took a very young homeless pregnant mother in. She is now a mother to 3 children under 5 without a home and without a job. She's still stuck in the same rut she was in when she was living in a tent!

What they gave her is irrelevant because it did not in any way help to solve her problem. They gave her band aids and are surprised when she's still bleeding!

Now the church wants to paint the woman as lazy and selfish and oh so greedy to even protest or object after all they've "done" for her.

What's the saying? (paraphrased) "Give a man a fish and he will starve. Teach him to fish and he will thrive."

Except...
The mom does NOT know how to fish!

[MercutioATC]

307. I'd disagree.

Without more information, we can't determine whether the woman "does NOT know how to fish" or is unwilling to fish.

That's immaterial.

The woman was provided with tools. She was given 11 months of free housing. She was given over $3000. She was given the use of an automobile. She may well have also been given guidance, but the article doesn't specify that so I'm not assuming it.


This organization did not pledge to fix this woman's life. They pledged to provide free housing through July 2006. They did that, and more. That's commendable.


Where do you see the church "paint(ing) the woman as lazy and selfish and oh so greedy to even protest or object after all they've "done" for her." ? I didn't see anything of the sort. I see the woman saying she feels "betrayed" because her version of the offer and the church's version differ. I didn't see one statement from the church accusing her of being either lazy, selfish or ungrateful. If I missed a quote, please feel free to correct me.

[earth mom]

310. Bottom line-The mom is still homeless.

Dress it up however you like, but IMO, the church clearly failed the mom.

BTW- I'm done debating this with you, mainly because my computer keeps freezing up everytime I try to read and post on this thread, not because I'm giving in. :evilgrin:

Let's just agree to disagree.

[MercutioATC]

311. Fair enough. We agree to disagree.

Hope you get your computer issues straightened out.

:hi:

[uppityperson]

293. How do you know what all the church did? How do you know what she did?

How do you know this? I don't see this in the article. I see misunderstandings. I see help given freely, with a time limit on it. I see a woman who is in need of continuing help. I see that she has refused to meet with the church people. I see a lot of things but I do not see what all anyone did here and cannot judge either the church or Ms. Moran.

[uppityperson]

290. Good comparison. Thank you,

Be grateful for the help you get if you get it. Never ask for gratefulness if you give help. Do not demand more if someone gives you help.

[pitohui]

289. good, high time they stopped enabling this crap

what kind of example is being taught to those three innocent children, whose own mother is teaching them it's okay to scam a free ride through life?

i know too many victims and survivors who WORK!

the sooner this woman learns about a little word called "work," the sooner she can turn her life around, but she's never gonna get off her ass and change her life when everything is provided for free

[YellowRubberDuckie]

281. As someone who deals with Katrina "victims" on a daily basis...

Let me tell you guys something. Most of the people I've dealt with have this "entitlement" mentality. They are not going to make a mortgage payment until the moratorium is absolutely done. A lot of these people are almost 12 months delinquent. They hide their income from us because they think that if they make little enough, we'll give them amnesty and let them off the hook on overdue payments. This is not how it works. If you can't afford your house, you need to get rid of it. They are in this gimme gimme gimme state of mind, and it's nauseating. While I'm all for taking care of people who need the help, there are people who are lying thru their teeth just to get all the can from the government, from their mortgage company, and anyone else they might be able to get something out of. It's been more than a year. It's time to move on, get your life together, and pay your damned bills yourself.
Duckie

[pitohui]

288. are you in collections, duckie?

you are seeing the worst of the worst, i'm sure, if that is the case

and i'm certainly disgusted by this woman who took advantage of oprah and a naive church to ride the rent-free, responsibility-free gravy tree

but we're not all like that!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

292. I'm not in Collections.

I'm in Loss Mitigation, where we trying to help the people by putting them on plans to get them current.
And I know you're not all like that. I've talked to some truly wonderful people that I wish I could be friends with. But the majority of them have been greedy, thinking what i'm offering is a welfare type program, and then get pissed when it's not.
Duckie

[pitohui]

304. i'm sorry that so many are behaving badly

i won't pretend i don't know what you're talking abt, as i do have a friend who intends to ride the FEMA trailer rent free gravy train to the bitter end

but there are many more that i see every day who are quietly just trying to pick up and go on

i wish the scammers and people w. hands out would just knock it off, they make it more difficult for everyone

[earth mom]

306. So you expect-no demand-that people be current on a ruined pile of rubble?

You have GOT to be kidding. After all * & Co did to NOT help the Katrina victims, their families or their property?!

:wtf:

I have now truly heard it all. :puke:

[Lars39]

294. "Worst of the worst" because they're losing their house?

I lost my house last year. I guess that makes me 'one of the worst'. :eyes:
I don't understand why you're here on a progressive board. I truly don't.

[pitohui]

302. hundreds of thousands lost their house last year

most are not trying to scam some church for rent free house, food, and car! i bet you're not scamming, i bet you're working to turn things around

may we all agree that there is nothing progressive about diverting resources to professional scammers and con artists

scammers ruined the red cross program, they ruined the FEMA program where people forbidden to return to their homes got $2K without question to tide them over, it just goes on and on -- next time there's a hurricane and there WILL be a next time, as this atlantic hurricane cycle will last at least another 10 years and possibly as long as another 40 years -- people in serious need will go unhelped because of resources that went to scammers

[Lars39]

312. You have a very warped out look.

In case you haven't noticed, the Red Cross and FEMA were both run into the ground by Republicans.

[DanCa]

314. If I could kick and recommend a reply it would be this one.

This is why we shouldn't privitizie social securiity disability people would be at the whim of the "tender mercies" of merciless people.

[pitohui]

284. no good deed goes unpunished

but honestly what sensible person would give up rent-free home, food, etc. and she isn't even pretending to look for a job

bums make us all look bad and it's too damn bad, it really is, but there is always an element that takes advantage

i don't agree with yellowrubberduckie that "most" katrina victims are users, most i've seen are already taking their lives back into their own hands, but it may be a function of the people i meet -- people moving into my area, st. tammany parish, (as they have in their tens of thousands) are people who were always responsible, had savings, had insurance, and now they're picking up and dusting off

the attitude and courage of the people of st. bernard parish, where EVERY residence in the parish was lost, has been little short of amazing

sadly the entitlement mentality of the few can leave a very bad taste, because the obnoxious and the greedy push themselves to the forefront of the pig trough, while the quiet heroes do not try to profit or even to draw attention to themselves...

[Codeine]

298. What a great post.

For reminding us that most of these folks are busting their asses and taking back their lives, the vast majority with far less help than this lady has received. :applause: :yourock: :applause:

[countingbluecars]

305. "the obnoxious and the greedy push themselves

to the forefront of the pig trough"???

Does that apply to the 5, 1, and 4 month old children as well?

[spacelady]

287. Why, oh WHY does her name have to be Moran???? It makes it so hard

to comment.

[uppityperson]

295. I know, I know. I have been trying hard to not comment either.

Why that spelling? Why, oh dog, why?

[DanCa]

300. Well at least they took her in. Who is going to help her now?

Ideally they should have given her notice but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Now who is going to step up and help this woman???

[B Calm]

301. Not me!

[DanCa]

303. I don't have the resources living on a fixed income and all.

Maybe we can get some more fortunate soul to step up and take her in?

[knitter4democracy]

325. What you do unto the least of these, you do unto Me.

The Second Greatest commandment, according to Jesus, is to love our neighbors as ourselves. He also said that whatever we do to the people in the hardest parts of life (the sick, the ones in prison, the hungry, the naked) we do to Him.

Yes, they did a great thing and took someone in who needed it. Now, they're just acting like regular people, kicking out a mother of three under the age of five. Yes, she's been there for a year, and yes, there seem to be depression issues and all, and maybe, just maybe, she is taking advantage of them.

Still, that's not what Jesus said. He said to take care of her. Period. Last I checked, there's no time limit on God's grace, and while many in the church go for the tough love stuff, the Gospels don't back that up. What message does this send her children? They're only loved until it gets hard? They're only worth whatever job their mother gets?

Frankly, this disturbs me. I'm so tired of people attacking the poor and holding them to higher standards than most anyone else could meet. She was preggers when she went through that hell, and we all have a responsibility to her children and to her to get her the help she needs and the home those kids deserve. I'm going to look into this and see if a charity group I trust in the area will be helping out in any way.

[Swamp Rat]

330. This thread is disgusting n/t

[Broken_Hero]

331. Locking

Discourse, and debate has run its course, and become flamebait.