Is there any value in seeing the other guys point of view?

[bryant69]

I'm not talking necessarily about people here at Democratic Underground (where we largely share the same views (although the difference are most of what we talk about)). I'm talking more about seeing the point of view of people you really disagree with and even hate - like the Neo Conservatives or the Dominionists or White Supremists and so on and so forth.

How much value you would place on taking the time to really understand Bill Kristol?

Or to put it in the current context of debate (without limiting it to that), if you support Israel, is it worthwhile to understand the objections of those who do not share your views? And if you support Lebanon, is it worthwhile to understand why others support Israel?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Marie26]

1. Totally worthwhile.

If you can't understand it, you can't effectively fight it, IMO

[upsidedown]

2. Exactly. n/t

[mcscajun]

3. Seeing the other person's POV is, to my mind, precisely the thing

that separates liberals from the right wing.

We can (and do) see the whole picture, we stop, we analyze why the other person has a particular view, maybe we even incorporate it into our overall view. We don't see black and white, but a continuum of black to shades of gray to white. We take a fair amount of heat for that from the absolutists of the world.

[OnionPatch]

9. I'll second that

Refusing to even contemplate the other-side's point of view is arguably what causes most of the problems in our world.

[Democrats_win]

4. William Kristol? Puleeze people! he's a Straussian professional liar.

We are witnessing what happens when politicians follow myths. Leo Strauss, whose ideas Kristol follows, advocates politicians telling "noble lies" and using myths to give "people meaning and purpose to ensure a stable society."

Why pay attention to liars? Especially when the purpose of those lies is to confuse and weaken. They KNOW that they are lying and they do it to make us weaker. Democrats must organize and defeat these liars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kristol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

[Swamp Rat]

5. It's not just totally worthwhile, it is absolutely necessary.

Know thy enemy.

[novalib]

6. A TOTAL and COMPLETE FUCKING Waste of Time

"I'm talking more about seeing the point of view of people you really disagree with and even hate - like the Neo Conservatives or the Dominionists or White Supremists and so on and so forth.

How much value you would place on taking the time to really understand Bill Kristol? "

Look, if I hate someone. it's for a REALLLLLLY good reason -- like they are conservatives of any flavor, neo or otherwise, or they are dominionists, or white supremecists, or supporters of the current cabal of thugs in the regime in the White House, or they want to put restrictions on my right to do whatever the hell I want to do.

So why in the fuck would I want to waste one second or one of the cells in my grey matter considering the point of view of someone who is obviously evil and hateful??!!!!

It's just a complete and total fucking waste of time and energy!!!

[hfojvt]

28. how do you know it is for a good reason?

and where do you live that you have a right to do whatever you want to do? If it's America, then you'd better not want to drive a car without wearing a seatbelt. That, apparently, is not an American right.

"So why in the fuck would I want to waste one second or one of the cells in my grey matter considering the point of view of someone who is obviously evil and hateful??!!!!"

Maybe to avoid becoming hateful yourself. Nobody on this planet manages to be perfect, and nobody manages to be perfectly evil. If you can find some good in them, perhaps it can be watered and nourished, and it will grow.

"Now if your leather jacket means to you
what this hat means to me
then I guess we understand each other
and we'll just let it be
but if you still think it's funny
man, you got my back up against the wall
and if you touch my hat
you're gonna have to fight us all."
"This Cowboy's Hat"

[unpossibles]

7. I always try to know my "enemy" or at least to be able to understand

their motives - it not only helps me understand and communicate my own beliefs, but also how to counter their arguments.

I think the only way to combat something is to understand why it happens, and that doesn't mean I condone it - for instance, I think terrorism is wrong because it hurts innocent civilians but I can understand how it happens when people are backed into a corner and feel they have no legitimate recourse to "fight the power."

It's such an important yet seldom learned history lesson; "For it is the doom of men that they forget!"


Sadly, I often am completely baffled how often and how strongly people believe the RW lie-machine.

[Armstead]

8. Totally Wrothwhile and Essential

Ultimately thart's what good stuff like democracy and peace are all about. Absolutism and refusal to understand others' perspectioves is the cause of rotten things like fascism, war and fundamentalist rigidity of all varieties.

It's important to understand and emphasize with other views and goals on many lavels. For one, you have to understand what you're challemging, so you can argue in a way that addresses the concerns of others.

It's also the only way conflicts are resolved.

[Democrats_win]

11. Yes, but he's not giving his true feelings. He's lying: Not worthwhile.

His true feelings are that he is better than you or I and we don't deserve what we have. Furthermore, he is too good to pay taxes to support his war and the laws of this country don't apply to Bush or any other neocon. That's his true beliefs but he'll argue any BS with you and tell you any lie to make you weaker. Is that worthwhile?

I'm not picking on just you, this is for all the people on this thread who associate worthwhile with any neocon. Worthwhile & neocon = oxymoron.

edit: punctuation

[Armstead]

17. Are your true feelings that we're better than them?

When it comes to the bottom line, I am as dogmatic as the next guy. If only the world would just adhere to my values and beliefs we'd be a lot better off....I think at heart every human believes that.

But I was also raised to have the ability to shift my frame and try and be able to see things from an objective framework, as well as through the eyes of people I don't necessarily agree with. I strive to always have that open-minded side too....It's both a blessing and a curse sometimes.

But the point is that the Neo-Cons really do believe as they do just as fervently as you and I believe what we do.

They do envision some flourishing of democracy and happiness and prosperity will unfold in the Middle East if they are just able to impose their utopian ideas on the region....And sometimes you have to break a few eggs to mske an omlette.

I'm not defending them. I believe their version of democracy is far from utopian, and I also believe that they are stupid and unrealistic in terms of not recogniing the comple and muddled obstacles that exist.

The hard core Neo-Cons will never be convinced otherwise. But there are shades of that among the broader population. And unless we recognize the valid concerns and hopes that drive many more moderate people in that diorection, we will not be able to make persuasive arguments against it.

[bryant69]

10. One interesting bit - so far it does'nt seem like there's any grey area

Either it's essential or totally worthless.

[Oversea Visitor]

12. If we do not try to understand the problems

Then we never solve the problems.

[quinnox]

13. I was just talking to my friend

about this yesterday. He is a "family values" republican and he was saying the "Demo-rats" love gays and stuff and
I told him he needs to at least listen to some progressive radio from time to time so he can try and understand the other side. I said that on occasion I will listen to Rush Limbaugh for this reason from my point of view although I usually disagree with everything rush says.

Anyway, yes you should have an open mind when it comes to other points of view especially those that are opposite of your own.

[porphyrian]

14. Somewhat worthwhile.

Understanding an opposing point of view enables you to better debate it or to develop some form of forgiveness, if you are so inclined. However, it doesn't make any difference in changing the minds of people who "know" they're right, making seeing their point of view only more frustrating and useless.

[marions ghost]

30. I agree with your answer on this

it's not always simple. It depends on the circumstances of the exchange and if there is any percentage in debating at all. Easy to say that we all should be open-minded and fair and consider the POV of someone who has the extreme opposite point of view but a lot of progressive people get trampled when they attempt to do that. Because the other side will not spare an oz. of consideration for them.

Some days I can manage compassion for conservative extremists, but it's the kind of pity you have for the severely brain-damaged. I feel I am able to look at what they believe objectively and get a feel for why they think that way, but I don't give their opinions too much time. I know they aren't going to come around in response to arguments from hardcore liberals. Just reinforces their positions.

[porphyrian]

32. "...the kind of pity you have for the severely brain-damaged."

Heh, I find myself there on occasion, however it tends to get in the way of my anger at their enabling, consciously or not, our current crisis.

[marions ghost]

35. oh yeah

you can have forgiveness ('they know not what they do') --but still have a healthy anger and resistance at the same time. Anyone who thinks like an extreme (extreme) conservative has been abused or twisted somehow, and that is sad. The problem is giving the twisted ones too much power and having no effective controls on that. It is a mistake to be too lenient. There are a lot of Democrats and moderate Republicans who have made that mistake. In an effort to "consider the other side" we have given too much rein to criminals and other idiots.

Maybe that's partly why many Americans (not at DU) seem to be having a hard time summoning up a strong rejection to the abuses the leadership is heaping on us. Why so many Americans were willing to go fight Saddam's abuses so we don't have to face the abuses going on over here.

[porphyrian]

36. Very good observation.

I'm convinced that there is a whole lot of scapegoating and misplaced problem-fixing going on. You can only contradict reality so much for so long before heads explode. "Stop...Dave..."

[ProfessorGAC]

15. I'll Vote "None Of The Above"

Your question presumes too much. Your example of someone like Kristol illuminates why! You presume i don't understand his point of view in the first place. I do! I don't like it. Therefore, it does me no good to understand his POV. I think he's a silverspoon lunkhead and his opinion is valueless. I need to understand no more about ANYTHING he thinks, or why, because i've enough awareness of his writings and his TV appearances to know his opinion is valueless.
The Professor

[Quantess]

20. So you understand his POV,

but, wouldn't you like to understand his appeal?
Why does anyone give a shred of merit to him or Ann Coulter, or Rush Limbaugh, or Rich Lowry, or any right-wingers, for that matter?
Why do their viewpoints appeal to certain people? It's a completely worthwhile question.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. I Understand That Too

It's easier to understand uncomplicated, undernuanced positions. So, given that people will often take the path of least resistance, those viewpoints will take on some appeal. That doesn't mean i have anything to learn from understanding that.
The Professor

[Quantess]

37. It says something about people, though.

Sorry if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse, but I think there is a shred of brilliance in the stupidity. Maybe it shows that Dems should uncomplicate their messages when addressing this specific audience.

We need to figure out how to appeal to the not-so-bright, as well as the brainiacs. So far, Repukes have cornered the market on the dullards.

Edit to add: Not-so-bright folks, and lazy thinkers, are good people too. We need them to vote Democratic. They will, when they figure out it's in their best interest.

[bryant69]

24. It's kind of clear sometimes when someone doesn't like

the implications of the question.

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Meaning What?

I see no implications of the question. Don't overstate things. Your poll is hardly that nuanced.

I have no value for their POV. That's what i answered. I understand it, i don't value it, and won't learn anything from it. What's so "unclear" about that? Instead you attempt a veiled insult.

If you don't want contrary opinions, why post a poll?
The Professor

[bryant69]

27. I don't mind contrary opinions; I like them actually.

But your statement makes it clear that you think the poll presumes too much, which I don't entirely understand. I'm not sure what you mean by that; it seems like you want to say "I do understand what Bill Kristol thinks, but I see no value in that understanding."

You have an opinion, and your opinion is that you see no value in understanding Bill Kristols or others over on that side of the fence; but you didn't seem to want to say that clearly. You have since said it more clearly, so perhaps it was me reading too much into it.

Bryant

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Fair Enough

Friends again! We just see this differently. I think you might be reading too much into their points of view. If you don't, we can be agreeable, although we disagree on this.

The Professor

[Sinti]

16. Necessary, but you have to understand their true motives and intent

not just the garbage they spew for public consumption.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. You can't effectively combat it

if you don't make a genuine attempt to understand it.

Does anyone think they'll be able to cure cancer or AIDS without understanding them; without understanding, in a manner of speaking, the "point of view" of a cancer cell or an AIDS virus? I see this as being the same sort of thing, when we're talking about fascists whose views are truly evil.

In terms of the current debates among DUers, I also think it's important to understand the other's views. Better to work at genuine understanding than to simply scream back and forth at each other.

Gaining better understanding of the "other" is never a bad thing IMO.

[Igel]

19. Obligatory. Not just 'worthwhile'.

If you just look at a few people say about another group, all you get is the understanding those few people understand. If those few have some point to make or axe to grind, are in solidarity with some group or are opposed to that group, they're easily wrong. Not always on purpose. But the truth may not be as rhetorically useful. Or the range of opinions may not be pertinent. Or some underlying motive may be overlooked, or not completely correctly imputed. Or they may not assume the amount of good will necessary for actually making the attempt to understand what an opponent said, or consider the context.

I like original sources when I can get them, and have time. In context. In the original language, when I know it well enough.

[ChristianLibrul]

21. Republicans aren't teachable

Save your energy.

[Fountain79]

22. In all fairness...

talk to anyone that is far enough on other side and their mind is already made up.

[Fountain79]

23. You can't effectively debate someone...

if you don't have a somewhat firm knowledge of their position. For example by knowing that conservatives supposedly support a less central government and more state control you can effectively point out to a conservative that Bush is not doing that.

[Guaranteed]

31. Yeah, it depends on who you're talking about. The people who are always

wrong? No. Not even worth trying. What happened the last hundred times you tried to look at it from their point of view.....

But the average person on the street? Yeah, it's most definitely worth listening to them.

[mmonk]

33. The first part of your post, no. The second part, yes.

Neo-conservative, Dominionist, or white supremist no way with me (waste of time). There's no understanding those points of view from where I sit.

[JitterbugPerfume]

34. I hope to never be so set in my ways

that I can not listen to a point of view that is different to mine

[karlrschneider]

38. If you're gonna fight somebody, you damn well need to know what

he's thinking...as much information as you can get about -everything-!