Exactly How Stupid Are the Obscenely Wealthy?

[Demeter]

First a definition: the Obscenely Wealthy (OW) are those who have accumulated (by quasi-legal versions of misappropriation of community and personal property, if not outright criminal methods) more cash than even their over-indulged and profligate grandchildren can get through. Not a tremendous number of people, but powerful in their own ways. They put Dubya in power, so as to be clear whom I am discussing.

But in putting Dubya in power, in declaring an open state of Class War, did the OW forget the lessons of the French Revolution? Did they think that they could buy loyalty forever, and forget that it's only rented, paycheck to paycheck?

Are they ready to reap their own personal whirlwind? Because that's where we are heading, and at an accelerated rate. It's become a matter of them, or us, and frankly, even with bare hands, we outnumber them. Iraq will look like a picnic when their personal comeuppance arrives.

So, just how stupid are the OW? Will they see the brink in time, or go hurtling off into ancient history? Will they sue for peace, or find it only in the grave?

This is the Apocalypse they ought to be contemplating.

[eallen]

1. You mean, like John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, George Soros, and Warren Buffett?

All of whom are Democratic?

Do you have any statistics that show the party affiliations of the OW? Or does that matter, before accusing them, as a group, of putting George Bush in power? Of course, if you want to dislike them just for being OW, that's fine. But if you want to claim a particular political fact, how about some evidence?

For example, there are good statistics that show how white evangelicals voted, for the most part, right down party lines. And there are more of them, by several orders of magnitude, than there are of the OW.

[Atman]

3. Does party really matter?

I mean...really. I don't read the op as an "anti-republican" rant, rather, and anti-obscenely wealthy rant.

[acmejack]

7. I see you require education in the worst possible way!

Please take a look at this & learn what the term "obscene wealth" actually means!

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3115

[eallen]

9. Yes, and other OW folks, such as Buffett & Gates, are on the other side.

[Demeter]

16. These Are the Folks I'm Talking About

Thanks for the link.

[Double T]

8. You mean like Warren Buffet and Ted Turner........

that donate significant portions of their wealth to the greater good of others. You won't ever find any RW greedy neocon doing anything of the kind. The OW sure didn't want the working poor to have a minimum wage pay increase if they could not keep ALL of their greedy accumulations ONLY for them and theirs. The RW OW sure are the bush backers, but we all know what happens to greedy robber barons in the end.

[w4rma]

11. Where do those four stand on illegal immigration? Did they support the

Senate bill?

[Demeter]

17. If You Can Show That These Families Promoted Bush, Add Them to the List

Would it trouble you to read to the end of the rant, please? We don't all deal in two word soundbites, like Karl does.

[JVS]

24. Down with the plutocracy, regardless of their slight political differences

May their fortunes and power all be destroyed

[stepnw1f]

48. No... Just Republican Pricks

who hoard all their wealth to themselves while lobbying to dump their fair-share on the poor and middleclass.

[valerief]

2. I'm sure they have unmapped islands in the sea and space to

escape to. They can always change their identity, too. They can do anything they want to anyone they want. They own the world.

[leveymg]

4. They're liquidating America and fleeing offshore with the assets

They're not stupid. Just traitors.

When and if real progressives ever come to power in America, it will be fun to hunt the superweathy down and attach their assets -- no matter where they've holed up.

First, I want to see the Delta Force rappel down from helicoptors into the Carlyle Group world headquarters at 1001 Pennsylvania Ave and arrest the Board and executives.

[acmejack]

5. None of those four make the list!

We're talking Timken, Mars, Cox, Koch, Wegman, Walton to name a few. Think big! Check the attached list and learn something!

Here is the report detailing who thinks you are stupid: http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf

[Warpy]

6. Since I've met a few socially

I can tell you they're not stupid at all, just utterly clueless.

They are concerned with preserving what they have and in making their own surroundings as pleasant as possible. They are not concerned with yours and have little curiosity about how you and I live. Most deplore the ostentation you see with new money, although if they travel, they do it by private jet from private airport. They do not wait in line.

They are affable enough, but myopic.

As for reaping the whirlwind, unless the religious wingnuttery manages to unleash a nuclear holocaust, forget it. They will lose a few numbers on paper, but they will ride it out. They are survivors.

[elehhhhna]

10. I've met a few , too. In EVERY instance the self-made were

intelligent, thoughtful people...who you wouldn't know were hyper-wealthy by just looking at & talking to them.

It's the inheritors of cash and/or companies that are the real arrogant, selfish, overly self-impressed showoff asshats. EVERY time.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. That has been my experience as well.

Some of those with CEO ships 'handed' to them are the laziest people on the planet, while others, who are actually working and becoming wealthy that way are decent, intelligent folks.

It's the inherited wealth I have an issue with. My husband used to work for Ethyl Corp. The 'owners' are obscenely wealthy and the guy in charge of my husband's division was the son of one of the owners. He was a moran, through and through and all his business decisions drove that division into the ground and the accompanying stock as well.

[fishwax]

29. i've met a couple of self-made jackasses, but overall I agree with

the gist of what you say.

[Warpy]

35. Funny, I've found the opposite to be true

I'm talking about very old, New England WASP money. The furniture was often in need of reupholstery and the antiques came down through the family. The houses were large but lacked the ostentation of the McMansion. A lot of them drove Toyotas when they drove, top of the line Toyotas, but Toyotas. Everything was understated. However, the presence of servants let you know just what was going on if the converation hadn't.

The children of great wealth are generally asshats until they grow up. Some of them, like the Waltons, never seem to grow out of it.

[tbyg52]

51. Just the situation

That the estate tax is *supposed* to correct!

[oscar111]

13. FALSE FRONTS: mull this over as a possibility

Hi, another good post . thanks.

now, consider this... the affable nature you noticed may be a false front.

i have run into this.

One also sees the affable false front in george jr, who blew frogs up with firecrackers.

[Warpy]

34. The people I met weren't psychopaths

They were just clueless.

[Protagoras]

20. That sounds a lot like the Aristocracy throughout history

It isn't that they look down on the "little people" it is more that they don't even realize they are there most of the time.

Saw some creepy thing on 60 minutes last night about the new rush of Mega houses among the mega rich...the developers had a Versailles option?

But then again I suppose that they'd be willing to let us eat cake if we wanted to eat cake.

Funny how some things never change...at least until the peasants grab pitchforks.

[gratuitous]

12. Real stupid -- here's proof!

Every time you read about some overrich guy making heueueueuege donations to some politician or political party, and favorable votes or legislation ensues, you read a quote from the politician about how whatever vote or legislation he's proposing is really some issue he's deeply concerned about, and he would have done it anyway, donation or not.

See? Those overrich guys make these donations to politicians who would have voted for their pet interests anyway! How stupid is that?

[oscar111]

14. genes move to the average over generations, and fast too

called "regression to the mean"

smart parents tend to have less smart kids, and dummies have smarter kids.

all move toward the average.

so a brilliant selfmade, will have dumber kids.

good theory for the fall of empires.

[oscar111]

18. dont celebrate too fast. Kobolds, the "fathers of eruope" are still here

living in palaces.

they seem to be related to all the royals, who as you know, inbred for millenia.

every nation of europe seems to have royalty still rich. Still in castles. And, the french royals/nobles returned , right? For a while.

but longterm, they will go. The length of that term is up to us citizens. I just wanted to correct some history.

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. A most telling analysis -- LOL. nt

[tomp]

28. proof indeed! hard to argue with. nt

[peacetalksforall]

15. By calling it Obscenely Wealthy you are drawing a line. Barons.

By calling them OW you are taking away what I think you are trying to ask? (There will be arguments about who is and is not OW and time will be wasted arguing it).

Call them barons and you define them in a political-corporate-foundation-military-religious way. They are baron-drivers. They are most likekly differentiated from some very wealthy who are what someone already referred to as clueless.

The barons we are talking about are not clueless. Their issues are planet and space, safety, perpetuity, and facelessness.

Planet involves where we're at. They want the earth resources that are under the feet of people who are in the way. They don't give a damn about rights. They do believe in the Sham Of Rights. That is when they pretend and go along with the crap that you and I are stupidly believing we are living under in the U.S. The roots of what we believe in are genuine in their origin - our ancestors created them - rights to vote, having the vote count, fighting for the right for everyone to vote, protection from lynching mobs, wrongful imprisonment, etc. These are the people who can fund the theft of votes.

Barons want none of that except the myth of it because it keeps us in place.

Now they are manipulated to justify killing, theft, debt, and an increasingly screwed up legal system.

They operate with politicos and operatives.
They operate inside and outside the U.S.
They are international, not national.
Their issues are CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL.
Control of earth and space resources. Control of people.

They operate through operatives:
> lawyers who are actively destroying our Constitution
> control of media
> a military who operate with corporations for them
> reverends (so-called) who control (in turn) their voting base
> partnership with key wealth controllers in many other countries
> gifts of wealth to key people in and outside the U.S. who will work with them

Their think tanks told them how to do it. They have politicos, military brass, ceo's, and reverends who get it done form them.

The control plans have been underway in this country for a long time in a very orchestrated way that involves thousands and thousands of operatives. Their followers have moved into local school boards, judgeships, police forces - under delusions of American superiority, American isolation, Christian superiority, race, gender, and class politics. They want unions busted, they want two wealths - the haves and the have nots. Have nots will always think they are moving up and will buy something if only food and water. They don't want a middle class. They will happy with three gas companies, three airiines, three credit cards - all to keep track and control, but still maintaining the illusion of choice. They want a world wide low wage so they can reduce costs and improve profits. They need war, perpetual war to attain their control agenda.

PNAC is not at the top - they are only enablers for the barons.

CEO's alone did not figure this out. Nor did Cheney. Nor did the Pentagon. Nor did the House of Saud or the Rockefellers or the royalties of various countries.

Why are there so many entities that we know little about - Tri-Lateral Commission, IMF, World Banks, Federal Reserve? Do you have one say in their control over us? Do the barons?

[tabasco]

19. Pretty stupid, because you have to be smart to get along without much $$$.

I'm talking about people who inherit money.

People who never have to work regress in intelligence.

No motivation, no achievement.

Not true in all cases but true as a general rule.

True in GW Bush's case. No real debate that he is stupid.

"Lazy, idle rich" is not just a smear, it is true.

Unearned enormous wealth is the same thing as royalty.

No place for it in my perfect society.

I support pretty high estate taxes for the greater good.

Capitalism is not inherently stable.

[Demeter]

21. If You Ever Had Any Knowledge of Monaghan, of Domino's Pizza

He's first generation: and batshit crazy.

[elehhhhna]

31. He was raised in an orphaage. Blame the nuns.

[fasttense]

22. Well, isn't Paris Hilton their spokes person? n/t

[mtnsnake]

23. Many of them are way more greedy & self serving than they are stupid

I know a few of them, and the more money they get, the more they wanna make. One millionaire I know who can't possibly spend all his money in his lifetime is spending what little free time he has by planning on how he'll become a billionaire.

Ever notice how seldom the obscenely wealthy smile or laugh?

[Sinti]

26. They think they have the guns and tech to keep you commoners

in your place. So far it seems to me it's working. I don't see many peeps marching in the streets... though they should be. They control the horizontal and the vertical, and everybody is just plugged in ATM. If it gets out of hand, they have that laser boil the water under your skin weapon and other similar devices... for the time being they own humankind.

[Fovea]

30. Back to the Fifties!

With the 90% top tax rate!
Actually, I'd be happy to see a 75% top rate with no exemptions.

[Yupster]

37. That's the problem

The truly wealthy like the Kennedys and Rockefellers and Perots and Soros don't make much taxable income so you can make the income tax rate 99 % and you won't hit them. What they have is wealth, not income.

The income they do get is largely not-taxable so worrying about the tax rate misses them completely.

[Fovea]

47. How about a 60% tax on earnings regardless of type

Stocks, interest, property re-valuation, you name it?

[Yupster]

65. So if a person's house goes up $ 40,000 in value

one year, that family will have to declare that $ 40 k as income and pay tax on it? Does that seem reasonable? It's hard enugh paying the extra property tax each year because of valuation gains. Adding an income tax to the gain just seems oppressive.

And what about municipal bonds? You want to tax people on their tax free bond interest? That will seriously drive up the cost of new schools, water treatment plants, etc.

[converted_democrat]

32. I don't think that's a fair assessment..

I date a guy that fits your description, as do many of his friends, but I don't think they are anything like you describe.. My guy gave over 2 million to charity last year, besides the numerous foundations he has started in his name.. He, and most of his friends are worth between 20- 30 million, with the exception of two of them, who are worth even more considerable sums.. They all give massive amounts to charity, and they are all good people.. I don't find your assessment at all accurate.. My guy made all of his own money, and he is one of the most thoughtful generous men I've ever met..

Oh, and the "super rich" aren't as stupid as you think.. Who do you think is buying up all of the private security companies here in the US? Why do you think the demand for armored vehicles is rising so rapidly? (For non-military use.) I think it's sad though.. Why should they have to fear for their safety, just because they worked their asses off and achieved something? Why should he have to fear for his safety, and the safety of his loved ones just because he made a bunch of money?


on edit- Up until I met my guy, I thought badly of most that had such huge sums of money, but I realized very quickly that these people are human just like you and me.. My family always had some money, but nothing like this, and I had many false presumptions about the issue. When I was lucky enough to see the situation for what it really was, I realized how wrong I really was..

[misanthrope]

55. I'm sure he didn't...

...claim those donations on his taxes either, since $20-30 million+ would give him plenty of cushion to absorb such a gift given for purely altruistic reasons.

[converted_democrat]

56. And? Did you give millions to charity last year, or pay millions in taxes?

This thread has been a big eye opener.. So many petty jealous people that aren't able to be happy for others when they succeed..

[misanthrope]

60. Rest assured...

...had I that kind of jack to give away, it would most all be gone with no deduction claimed. I've never claimed charitable deductions before and that wouldn't make me start.

I don't like money or what it does to people. In fact, it reminds me of a type of cancer. For some of us, success is having enough to take care of yourself and your family and leaving a positive mark in the world via your personal relationships and the way you spend your time. Hording wealth until you accumulate tens of millions of dollars goes beyond that, in my opinion.

And for the record, most people with that kind of wealth were born with advantages that they refuse to see. "Owning a fortune" is so-called because there is so much fortunate circumstance built into its existence. Granted there are some who still used the "bootstraps" to get there, but they are a lot fewer between than most would like to believe.

[misanthrope]

61. Further info along similar lines (link)...

...America's rags-to-riches illusion

[lonestarnot]

33. They are in the time dual.

[AZBlue]

36. I'm disgusted by such stereotyping and over-generalization on this board.

It's called <i>Democratic</i> Underground - does no one remember that anymore?? Name some examples and you might have a point. Otherwise you're just lumping the good with the bad with the indifferent. Sounds to me like a case of jealousy more than anything else.

[stepnw1f]

49. Lumping? How Many Obsenely Wealthy People Are There?

What kind of person accrues so much wealth, while so many die in poverty? It's disgusting greed and it directly effects millions of people.

[TahitiNut]

38. Allyn-Soderberg Family (Welch Allyn Inc.)

Allyn-Soderberg Family (Welch Allyn Inc.)

The Allyns and Soderbergs own Welch Allyn Inc., a $650 million privately held medical device manufacturer based in Skaneateles, N.Y. The company was co-founded by Allyn family patriarch William Noah Allyn in 1915. Peter Soderberg, who resigned in early 2006 after six years as CEO of the firm, is married to Elsa Allyn Soderberg, granddaughter of co-founder, William Noah Allyn. The privately held company publishes little financial information, but its annual revenue has grown from $200 million to more than $600 million since 1993. The company has purchased four other businesses since 1994, one for $145 million. In January 2006, the firm announced plans to build a factory in Mexico and over the next two years, to close plants in San Diego, Calif., and Chicago, and to consolidate its operations at facilities in Skaneateles and Beaverton, Ore.

Using a family-controlled entity called the Allyn Family Real Estate Company (AFRE), the Allyn-Soderbergs paid at least $30,000 to Patricia Soldano’s Policy and Taxation Group to lobby on the estate tax in 1998 and 1999, before Soldano’s group ceased to disclose its donors. Welch Allyn is also a member of the Advanced Medical Technology Association, which, in turn is a member of the Tax Relief Coalition, a group that has put particular emphasis on winning repeal of the estate tax. Former Welch Allyn CEO Peter Soderberg has also personally given money to the Advanced Medical Technology Association Political Action Committee.

It is not possible to estimate how much members of this family would save if the estate tax were repealed because information on the family’s net worth could not be obtained.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf

Profiting from human suffering. Check.
Off-shoring jobs. Check.

[TahitiNut]

39. Blethen Family (Seattle Times Co.)

Blethen Family (Seattle Times Co.)

Through the Blethen Corp., sixteen members of the Blethen family hold a controlling interest in the Seattle Times Co. That company, in turn, owns assorted real estate properties in Maine and Washington state, in addition to publications including the Seattle Times, Walla-Walla Union Bulletin, Yakima Herald-Republic, Issaquah Press, Sammamish Review, Newcastle News, Portland (Maine) Press Herald, Maine Sunday Telegram, Kennebec Journal and Morning Sentinel (Maine). In 2000, Knight-Ridder, which owns 49.5 percent of the Times, offered the Blethens $650 million for their 50.5 percent share of the paper.

Frank Blethen is the fourth generation Blethen to run the company. Ryan Blethen, son of Frank, was appointed a regional editor of the Portland Press after accumulating less than two years of reporting experience.

Frank Blethen is one of the most vocal advocates of estate tax repeal and has exploited his control of a prominent newspaper use it to promote his cause. The Times has sponsored at least one of Blethen’s annual “Death Tax Summits” – in May 2005. Also in May 2005, the Seattle Times ran an editorial titled “Death Tax Squeezes Smaller Companies,” which argued that “the supporters of the death tax portray it as an egalitarian measure that taxes only the rich. But its effect in the real world of business is to squeeze middle-sized companies into selling out to bigger ones.”

The Seattle Times Co. has lobbied Congress on the estate tax in every year since 2000, during which time its lobbying bill has been $600,000. In three of those years, the estate tax was the only issue the company lobbied upon. The Times is also a member of the Newspaper Association of America, which, in turn, is a member of the two of the most prominent organizations pushing for repeal of the estate tax: the Family Business Estate Tax Coalition and the Tax Relief Coalition. The Newspaper Association of America has lobbied on the estate tax in every year since 1998.

Based on an estimate of that the Blethen family has a net worth of $650 million, a minimal estimate derived from Knight-Ridder’s offer to buy the company’s share of the Seattle Times, the family would save approximately $253.9 million if the tax were repealed.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf

Ain't a "Free Press" wonderful? :eyes:

[mmonk]

40. Old money tends to be liberal. New money tends to be republican.

[TahitiNut]

41. Cox Family (Cox Enterprises, Inc.)

Cox Family (Cox Enterprises, Inc.)

The two Cox sisters, Barbara Cox Anthony and Anne Cox Chambers, inherited Cox Enterprises Inc. from their father, James Cox, who died in 1957. Cox Enterprises Inc. owns 17 daily newspapers (including the Atlanta Journal-Constitution), 25 weekly publications and shoppers, 15 television stations, a 62 percent stake in an 80-radio station subsidiary, and one of the country’s largest cable systems (with 6.6 million subscribers in 22 states.) The firm also owns Manheim Auctions, the largest U.S. used-car auction business, which sold 10 million vehicles worldwide in 2005, and a majority stake in AutoTrader.com, an Internet auto classifieds marketplace that claims to carry 2.8 million vehicle listings from 40,000 dealers and 250,000 private owners.

Cox Enterprises has lobbied on the estate tax in every year since 1998, during which time the firm’s lobbying tab has been $9.5 million. The family, through its company, has close ties to three other organizations that have lobbied on the estate tax – the Newspaper Association of America, the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) and the U.S. Telecom Association. The president of a Cox subsidiary is a former chairman of the newspaper association. Although neither the NADA nor U.S. Telecom publicly identifies its members, Cox Enterprises is closely associated with both. Its subsidiary Manheim Auctions conducts training for NADA members and Manheim’s chief economist worked for NADA for 23 years before joining Manheim in 2000. Abolition of the estate tax was called a “key NADA objective” of the association’s incoming president. Cox Communications had a role at the U.S. Telecom 2005 convention.

The Cox sisters have a net worth of about $12.4 billion each, according to Forbes. Repealing the estate tax would save their heirs an estimated $9.7 billion.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf

That ol' Free Press just keeps on giving. :eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

42. I hope

whatever occurs the OW are gone and there will be no more OW's allowed to exist. These people with this wealth do not suffer or struggle like the rest of the world. They are not more special than ANY OF US they are not smarter more worthy or more deserving. The OW steal from many this is why they live as they do. The OW are morally inferior people to most average income or below people,because average people still have compassion.Average people will hand over change to a homeless person. An OW pig hides in their gated community in private rides,they never mix with the'plebians'.The OW associate with their own kind and spew hate at homeless poor and working people.Or they skim the bottom to get sex without strings,to act out sadism, or to exploit someone desperate for their own OW kicks.Because everything is handed to them they do not know how much their"privilege" hurts others and they do not have to consider it,because what will make them?.

[TahitiNut]

43. DeVos and Van Andel Families (Alticor/Amway)

DeVos and Van Andel Families (Alticor/Amway)

Jay Van Andel and Richard DeVos founded direct-selling giant Amway in 1959. Control of the company, through their Alticor holding company, is now in the hands of sons Doug DeVos, company president, and Steve Van Andel, now company chairman. The company had estimated sales of $6.4 billion in 2005. Jay Van Andel died in late 2004, but the two families maintain ownership of the company.

Alticor Inc. has lobbied on the estate tax in every year since 1998. Steve Van Andel also represents the family business on the board of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which has lobbied on the estate tax in each year since 1998.

In 2004, Forbes estimated that the founders of Alticor had an estimated combined net worth of $5.9 billion. Since Jay Van Andel’s death in December, 2004, none of his family members has been included in the Forbes list of the 400 richest Americans.

In 2005, Forbes pegged co-founder Richard M. DeVos’ net worth at $3.4 billion. Their family heirs would save an estimated $1.3 billion if the estate tax were repealed.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf

Richard DeVos' son, Dick DeVos, is the Repugnant candidate for Governor of Michigan, opposing Jennifer Granholm.
Dick's wife, Betsy, is the former Betsy Van Andel (convenient, huh?).
The Van Andels are also in control of Blackwater Security - profiting from death and suffering in Iraq.
Amway/Alticor (aka "Scamway") has been prosecuted as a pyramid scheme in some jurisdictions.
Dick DeVos is an extreme right "Xtian" ... whom I call the "Amway Ayatollah."
Amway/Alticor has shipped thousands of jobs to the People's Republic of China. (Gotta love that cheap labor.)

[Winston702]

46. Check your facts - Black water not controlled by Van Andels

The Van Andel family is not in control of Blackwater.

Blackwater was started by the son of the founder of the Prince Corporation. The son being a former SEAL.

[TahitiNut]

50. You're right. Betsy (nee PRINCE) DeVos is Erik Prince's sister.

(I brain-farted the Van Andel connection from somewhere else.)

ERIK PRINCE, 37, Blackwater’s founder and chairman, has deep roots in conservative Republican politics in Michigan.

His father, Edgar Prince, turned a small die-cast shop in Holland, Mich., into a major auto parts supplier with a specialty product: a windshield visor with a lighted mirror. After his death in 1995, the company was sold for $1.4 billion. Edgar Prince was a confidant and financial backer of Gary Bauer, a conservative activist and onetime presidential candidate.

Erik Prince’s sister Betsy, a former chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party, is married to Dick DeVos, billionaire son of the founder of marketing giant Amway and this year’s likely Republican candidate for governor of Michigan.

Erik Prince went to private schools in Michigan, earned his pilot’s license at 17 and attended the U.S. Naval Academy. He later joined the Navy and was deployed with a SEAL team.

Prince was living in Virginia Beach when he founded Blackwater in 1996. He now runs the Prince Group, Blackwater’s parent company, from an office in McLean, Va.

His first wife, Joan, died of cancer in 2003. He has since remarried, and has six children.

Prince is a board member of Christian Freedom International, a nonprofit group dedicated to helping persecuted Christians around the world.

Since 1998, he has made nearly $200,000 in contributions to Republican committees and candidates, including President Bush and indicted former House leader Tom DeLay, according to Federal Election Commission records.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=108028&ran=144012

[mainer]

44. oh, great. Another topic encouraging class warfare.

There seem to be a lot of threads like this on DU, encouraging us to eat the rich, or burn them all at the stake -- and burn their mansions too. It makes me wonder if some of them aren't posted by rightwingers trying to make us look like a bunch of raving Bolsheviks.

[TahitiNut]

52. How about just fixing an inequitable economic system?

When the people who benefit the most from that inequity act (naturally) to increase the systemic biases and abuses that benefit the already-wealthy while increasing the burdens on the working poor, we either fix it or look forward to blood in the streets and bodies in mass graves.

[Demeter]

62. We Don't Have To Encourage Class Warfare--It Exists

Say rather that instead of being polite, we acknowledge class warfare is in progress, and that our side is losing, and that it's time to fulfill the American dream which includes no inherited nobility nor de facto princes.

[Ciggies and coffee]

45. My guess is that they have stakes in each of the two "teams"

Not stupid.

[npincus]

53. you mean dumbos like Bill Gates?

[Dark]

54. I'd be more worried about what the industry moguls are doing to the

environment.

No one can survive on an uninhabitable rock, regardless of wealth.

[Guy Fawkes]

57. I thought the "American Dream" was to make it big in a capitalist world...

Many wealthy people get where they are through hard work, intelligence, and determination. Just because there are a few bad apples (the Enron bunch, for example), doesn't mean that are wealthy people are bad. Consider this: without wealthy backing, the fight on AIDS/HIV, cancer, poverty, world hunger, etc. would all be very far behind where they are now. And while I'm sorry that the Bill Gates's of the world do see fit to write you a check for a million dollars, that is no reason to feel such animosity toward people who have applied themselves and made it big in a free market society.

[converted_democrat]

58. Thank you for adding some common sense to this debate..

This thread has been a big eye opener to me.. I had no idea there were so many petty jealous people..

[porphyrian]

59. They're not stupid. They have all the things we don't, and they...

...used us and our ancestors to get it. If anything, we're stupid for letting them keep more at our expense, for letting them punish us for the poverty for which they are, in part, responsible in creating and maintaining. And, really, who can blame them? Wouldn't you rather do whatever you wanted to, whenever you wanted, without having to feel bad about it? Sure, I'm generalizing, and generalizations are inherently false (gotcha), so of course this doesn't apply to everyone with money. However, it is a truth today that money is power, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of it being used effectively to stop the unnecessary and illegal war in Iraq (which really benefits no one other than a handful of stock holders, corporate interests, Muslim extremists, and the neocons) or the three consecutive wartime tax cuts to funding things such as veterans' benefits that have effectively allowed the rich to steal so much of our country's wealth that a record surplus was turned into a record debt in less than a single Presidential term. I mean, who is more stupid, the successful theif or the dupes that continue to accept or even defend him after the theft?

[Demeter]

63. The Stupid Thief Is the One Who Keeps Robbing The Same Victim

in the belief that having got away with it once, he can contiinue to do so with impunity. It's time to show these habitual offenders the error of their thought processes.

[Xenotime]

64. Tax the OW.