Support for Israel

[SeaBob]

The US has been providing Israel financial and military support from day 1. My question is why? What possible benefit can we derive form supporting Israel? I am not being facetious, cynical or derisive when I am asking this question. I hope someone with international relations expertice can provide me with a realistic answer.

[cali]

1. I know you're asking this in a respectful way

but allow me to reference the rules for posting:

1. ORIGINAL POSTS MUST BE ABOUT A CURRENT EVENT, AND CONTAIN NON-INFLAMMATORY, SUBSTANTIAL CONTENT
If you wish to start a thread in the General Discussion forum about the Middle East situation involving Lebanon, Israel, and the surrounding countries, it must be based on a current news story. The moderators may lock threads which are started with substance-free posts (for example, nothing but a link), or threads started with posts which contain inflammatory rhetoric.

2. DEBATE THREADS WHICH ARE NOT BASED ON A CURRENT NEWS STORY WILL BE MOVED
If you start a thread in General Discussion which is not based on a current event or news story, it will be moved to the Israel/Palestine forum where the thread will be subject to the special rules of that forum. (Yes, we know the name of the forum isn't entirely appropriate, but that's the least of our concerns at the moment.)

3. KEEP IT CIVIL
If you decide to persist in calling people who are attempting to have a reasonable discussion about these issues anything along the lines of terrorists, Jew-haters, Jew-lovers, neo-cons, Nazis, or any other red-hot rhetoric, then you may face further disciplinary action. There are plenty of other places on the Internet where you can have discussions like that. But not here.

We are giving the Moderators wide latitude to enforce these guidelines in the interests of keeping the peace. If you don't want your thread to get moved or locked, we suggest that you think carefully about it before you post, rather than complaining to the Admins afterwards.

As always we appreciate your understanding and patience during this difficult time.

[Double T]

6. We also need to be careful of 'censorship' in all its forms..........

there is always at least two sides to an event, situation, issue etc. and it is important to discuss and comment on the different view points as long as there is no 'hitting below the belt', regardless of how sensitive the issue might be.

[SeaBob]

10. Support for Israel

The moderatrors are free to move this post to where ever they think is most asppropiate. But you still did not answer the original question.

[cali]

46. Sure, here's my answere

The support for israel is a confluence of elements; the power of AIPAC and Institutional Memory, figure highly in the mix, as well as a certain amount of identification on the part of lawmakers with the Israeli state.

[dwnforthecount]

17. ummm... what?

Maybe I'm confused but why are you throwing the book at this guy? He asked a simple question I'm sure most of the people who visit this website want to know.

I mean, since when have we become less of a free-debate site and more of a neo-con think tank?

[LWolf]

24. Ok. Let's check it out:

1. The U.S. is currently supporting Israel's military action, which is a part of the established historical pattern. The OP's questions were asked respectfully. No violation here.

2. U.S. influence on, and interaction with, Israel, is a current event. My front page, both paper and cyber, referenced it today. No violation here.

3. The OP is civil and respectful. No violation here.

Do you pop in to recite the rules on every thread about Israel in GD, or is there something special about this one?

:shrug:

[RagAss]

33. I hear ya....isn't it the right of an American to question where his/her

tax dollars are going......????

[The Stranger]

53. Why can't we talk about support for Israel? What are you trying to hide?

There is NOTHING MORE CURRENT than the CURRENT BOMBINGS of innocents going on.

[malaise]

2. Watch Exhibit #3

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1832685

[L0oniX]

3. I wonder about that too

Let's make Israel Americas 51st state and be done with it!

:sarcasm:

[savemefromdumbya]

4. The US wanted to keep a middle east base

now it is expanding to Iraq, then Iran, then Syria and so on. Get those pipelines still running.......Reagan had a prioroty to do so and now Bush II is.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. In general terms, because it is a similar culture

A democracy, theoretically liberal in both cases, that has a strong military, and is willing to cooperate with the USA, with little chance of a popular revolt. There are good reasons for supporting the continued existence of the Israeli state, from the US point of view. The support has continued, both from many US voters to whom it matters and from the US government, despite Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories, because withdrawing support is held to look like weakness in international relations, and people get ideas of 'solidarity' which override good sense.

What I've never been able to work out is why the majority of Israelis go along with the settlements in the West Bank. They get far more hassle out of them than any benefit. Can anyone say why the settlers aren't just told to suck it up and return to the true bit of Israel, the experiment having failed?

[question everything]

35. The sad reality is that during the Oslo Process

of the 90s most Israelis supported the complete withdrawal from the West Bank and from Gaza, supported two states living in peace side by side.

But when the last Camp David agreement in 2000 failed, and when Bush did not pick up the threads after Clinton, and when suicide bombers started... many Israelis started wondering about whether they made it too easy for bombers to enter Israel.. this is how the idea of the fence came about.

As with every culture, it is the extremists that ruin it for the population at large.

[SPKrazy]

7. Israel Is An Established Democracy And Ally In The Region

in other words, they are our friends

whereas in that region we don't have many friends

having Israel as a friend is sometimes hard. Israel isn't a subject of the kingdom of *, they seem to do what they want to.

also, our friendship with Israel makes it hard for those whose hatred of Israel keeps them from being our allies.

And yes, I believe it is hatred of Israel related to the fact that it is a Jewish state, not the issue of the piece of land only.

[jpkenny]

12. So is Turkey and Lebanon was well on its way to becoming a

respected, though infant, democracy. That answer simply isn't good enough for me. The answer I think lies somewhere around money, power, access, and control of our government officials.

[JackNewtown]

30. Lebanon has no AIPAC of its own

Look at how much its democracy, which is more important to the US's interests in the region, means to the American government...

[question everything]

36. Lebanon first has to have a government

that can control its borders and its people.

When a militia runs a large section of a country, uses that part to attack another country and causes the ruin of its country - one has to wonder who is running Lebanon.

The irony is that until last year, when Syria was controlling Lebanon in iron fist, Hezbollah was quiet.

[heidler1]

56. Does the US control it's borders?

That is spin to keep Syria and Iran military and other aid out. IMO the truth is that most people in Lebanon believe that the Hezballoh are locals and are an asset. Remember the Hezballoh were the cause of Israel going home the previous time they occupied Lebanon.

[Xeric]

13. keep in mind the fact that

the "holy land" is considered just as holy to Muslims as it is to Jews and Christians, so to some extent it is mostly about the land and who controls it. Some of the states surrounding, while certainly by no means non-prejudiced about Jews, had Jewish populations for hundreds of years. Iran still does, and in fact their consitution guarantees religious freedom to minority religions, a fact that unfortunately is not adhered to by the government. Before the creation of Israel there were good sized Jewish populations in Iraq, Egypt, Syria, and Yemen. So it isn't necessarily a gut hatred of Jews that drives the present situation. It is a complicated situation. The hatred of Israel is more about what Muslims perceive as a continuation of the Crusades than hatred of Jews per se.

[dwnforthecount]

19. Israel is not an ally of the US...

Israel was the largest source of misinformation leading into the Iraqi conquest. If that is not enough, now Israel is beating the drums of war to Iran and the current administration is marching to the beat. No, Israel is not an ally of the US. Israel is only supported by the US because of the popular belief of Israel being HQ for the second coming of Christ. That's it. Years upon years of wars and countless numbers of dead are all based on the twisted belief of some Americans.

No I do not hate the Jews, I respect the Jews as a hard-working intelligent people. It is the actions of the Israeli government that I can not support. Last time I checked, the Israeli Government has a SECULAR government,which means that it acts separate of Judaism. My criticism is to the evil of a government and not the respected religion of it's people.

"Criticizing the policies of Israel is not Anti-semitic"- Colin Powell

[adriennui]

20. israel gains nothing from the iraqi war

iran was exporting terrorism, saddam kept it in check. i've come to the conclusion that you'll say anything as long as it agrees with your worldview.

you do not know what you're talking about. who are YOU being paid by.

[JackNewtown]

26. Except the elimination of a sworn enemy of Israel? nt

[adriennui]

49. iraq was all bark. no bite

iran is the avowed destroyer of israel and financer of terrorism.

[dwnforthecount]

58. Iran is the result of US intervention.

By the sounds of your message, most of your knowledge of the Middle East comes from either Fox News or your local ultra-conservative newspaper. You make claims but your not supporting them.
Ok, first, Iran has suffered so much internal damage from years and years of wars AND demonstrations against an unpopular theocratic government. Believe it or not adriennui, not all arabs (or a-RABS as you must know them) enjoy an over controlling, ultra-conservative, theocratic government. In 2003, several THOUSANDS of students in Iran stood in the streets of Tehran protesting the theocratic government and calling for reform. The Islamic revolution that took hold in the 1970's is slipping, and perhaps a middle eastern nation MIGHT decide for itself that it wants a democracy WITHOUT US intervention.

In an earlier message you said that I'd change a story so that it'd fit MY political view, or something along those lines. Here's something for you to think about: Iran was never a supporter of the Tali ban (HUH?) Iran OPENLY supported the northern alliance (sound familiar? Those were our allies during the conflict in Afghanistan) and nearly went to war against the Tali ban in 1998. Here's your <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Iran|proof>, scroll down to 1979-Present.

In closing, Iran is not an open threat to the US. If you need it, here's more <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Iran|proof>. Iran is not planning on developing nuclear weapons, nor is it the right of the US of stopping Iran if they seek to own them.

Sadly sir/maam, YOU appear to be the one modeling new stories to fit your political agenda.

[newyawker99]

51. Hi dwnforthecount!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[dwnforthecount]

59. WOOT WOOT!!!!

Giving my love for my DU big sis's and bro's.

:loveya:

:dem:

[JackNewtown]

29. The US didn't care much about Israel before the 70's

So obviously the official reason that Israel's democracy (ask the Palestinians how democratic Israel is...) is not why we are willing to choose good relations with one small state over good relations with 1.3 billion people. It is very telling no other democracy has the US position on I/P. Why is that?

[The Stranger]

54. Lebanon is a democracy and an ally in the region.

Everyone would love to be our friends. Why can't we be theirs?

[SPKrazy]

57. Hizbollah=Lebanon? n/t

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tocqueville]

9. the primary reason is geopolitical

US (and other Western Nations) supported Israel because they saw it as the "hangar-carrier" of Western interests in the ME in face of raising concerns with nationalistic, Russian oriented Arabic movements that could nationalize the oil (Nasser, FNL, Baath etc..).

Another reason that was more or less anti-semitic is that after the war, nobody knew what to do with the Jewish question after the Holocaust. Having these masses piloted by terrorist organisations like Stern, Irgun, Lehi etc on Arabic soil was "far better" than having them inside Europe.

That's the sad truth. The rest is propaganda. I think that the West didn't anticipate the outrage it caused among the Arabic masses, and didn't anticipate that the new settlers would throw out 600 000 Palestinians directly or indirectly. The rest is history.

[SeaBob]

11. Tocqueville

many thanks for the illumination

[question everything]

37. While 600,000 Arabs fled their home during the 1948 war

a similar number of Jews fled Arab states.

The difference was, the new Israelis were absorbed in the new state to become equally contributing citizens, while the Palestinians were kept in wretched refugee camps to provide the release valves for the other countries in the region.

[Onlooker]

14. Actually, your question is Republican

Republicans have traditionally favored a more isolationist approach, though the neocons changed that. The progressive reason for supporting Israel is that it is a progressive nation in a reactionary part of the world. Israel has women's rights, gay rights, and minority rights. The fact that the current government is conservative doesn't mean that the state of Israel is conservative like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Jordan, or even Egypt. Let's remember that only a short time ago, Iran hung two gay teens and that Hezbelloh is a reactionary fundamentalist group that is allied with the Iranian fundamentalists. We should continue to support progressive governments. At the same time, we should be using our might to stop Israel's wanton aggression into Lebanon. That was our approach in the past, but the neocons have turned everything upside down.

[SeaBob]

15. Support

I was just curious as to why be behave as we do towards Israel

[JackNewtown]

31. It is "progressive" to rule 3 million people against their will?

I wonder why the Iraqis didn't greet us with flowers and candy...

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. That is one of those myths in criculation

for the first ten years I Isreal received very little support from the US, which feared it was a communist country... full support came during and after 1967 and that was a geopolitical decision

[Meshuga]

25. There was even a US embargo...

...on arms sales to Israel at one point.

[JackNewtown]

32. Yes, but such truths have been deleted from the official story

You will never hear of the lack of US support of Israel in the corporate media or from any major politician.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Or even many locals at DU

[JackNewtown]

40. Edit: I meant the lack of support from 1948-until the 70's nt

[Reckon]

18. The truth is, we have become them...... n/t

edit: comma

[bridgit]

21. ibtl...

[TomClash]

22. Additional reasons

Campaign contributions from supporters of Israel, American Holocaust guilt, a partially Eurocentric culture.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. If it weren't for the oil in the region, Israel and the ME woud be ignored

Much as most of Sub-saharan Africa is now.

We aren't pals with Israel because it's a "democracy". It certainly isn't an island of "stability". It's an idealized "ally" only because it gives us some leverage in a region rich in oil.

Look at how many of our supposedly "democratic" allies we now ignore, or have abandoned, since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

In example:

Total aid to ALL of sub-Saharan Africa, population 622,000,000, in 2004 was $3,990,000,000

$6.14 per capita

Total aid to Israel, population 6,287,000 in 2004 was $2,687,000,000

$487.40 per capita

[The Straight Story]

27. To keep em from using nukes.

Posted a research paper from the military about that a few days ago.

[JackNewtown]

28. Israel is a huge liability, especially to our national security

As long as we continue to sponsor the brutal foreign occupation of the Palestinians we are going to be hated by many Muslims, and some of them will turn to terror to make the US "pay". Our economic and political interests are hurt, as well as our budget with the $3 billion a year to Israel, and the $2 billion to Egypt to bribe it to remain on peaceful terms with Israel. We gain very little from blank check "support" for Israel and lose a lot. If it weren't for AIPAC, we wouldn't be the only "pro-Israel" nation on the planet.

[question everything]

34. Not exactly.

True, Truman supported the termination of the British Mandate and the division of the land between a Jewish and an Arab state. His administration was one of the first to recognize the new State of Israel.

However, when Israel joined Britain and France to attack Egypt in 1956, after Egypt's Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal, Eisenhower and Dulles told Israel to withdraw, quickly.

But the Soviet Union supported Egypt and Syria with heavy equipment and with arms, and with advisers, so, naturally, this country supported Israel the same. With the war in Vietnam, any information that Israel gathered about the Soviet-made arms was valuable to this country and Israel was open in sharing this information.

And these special ties continued, especially when the European countries, starting with De Gaulle's France turned on Israel in its time of need, in 1967, cowering to the Arab boycott, depending on the Arab oil, appeasing the influx of Northern African students and immigrants after the ending of France rule in Algier.

Russia still is stirring the pot in the area, as are Iran and China thus Israel is the first line of defense, and intelligence, for this country.

During the 1991 Gulf War, when Iraq was sending SCUD missiles to Israel, this was a real field testing of the US-made Patriot counter missiles (that failed miserably).

Israel and the US have co=operated in developing and testing many military equipment. Now, you may dislike anything military, but if you accept the reality, Israel is a valuable partner.

Oh, about money. Foreign aid in general does have strings attached and most of the aid that Israel is getting has to be used to purchase military and industrial equipment from this country.

I have told this story before: Some years ago, during the Clinton administration, the Israeli national airline - El Al - was in the market for new aircraft and was debating between Boeing and Airbus. The American Secretary of State pressured Israel to give the business to Boeing, which it did.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. Just a slight correction about the Truman administration...

While he was one of the first to recognise the new state of Israel (I can't remember if the USSR pipped him at the post on that one), advisers in the State Department were urging him to sit back and wait before deciding what to do. He ignored them and took it into his own hands....

[question everything]

52. Thanks you for the correction (nt)

[Clarkie1]

38. We assure the continued existence of the only true democracy

in the middle east. That's important.

[JackNewtown]

41. Only "true democracy" in the ME

Can you tell me what election the Palestinians voted to be ruled by foreign occupation? Surely a "true democracy"--unlike the fake democracies in Lebanon and Iraq, in which all adults can actually vote (unlike apartheid South Africa and similar "democracies"), would take into account the wishes of millions of Palestinians before taking their land and brutally suppressing them.

China and Morocco are also illegally stealing other's lands (which used to be called colonialism...) but at least they don't pretend to be a democracy and cite the myth as the reason for blank check support for them.

The notion the US backs Israel due to its democracy, which was refuted earlier in this thread by the real record on US-Israel relations prior to the 70's, has been shattered by US sponsorship of the destruction of one of only two Arab democracies. Lebanon's flawed democracy is far more important to US interests than Israel's flawed democracy, which provides no external benefits to the US.

[question everything]

55. Can you tell me where else in the Middle East

can you have this demonstration?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1838566

[breakaleg]

42. If the a policy of kidnapping, harassment, torture and every other

horrific act Israel stands for is a democracy, then the US should say 'no thanks'.

I'd rather take my chances with the rest of the ME than rely on Israel.

[Just Me]

44. How, precisely, is Israel a "true democracy".

:rofl:

I look forward to your response.

[Onlooker]

47. Your non-substantive comment makes you look ignorant

Israeli Arabs have equal rights under the law and are represented in the Israeli Parliament. Arabs have equal rights in the same sense that blacks have equal rights in the U.S. In other words, there is a significant amount of institutional racism. Further complicating the problem, though is the fact that Israeli Arabs often do not want to serve in the military or fight for their rights through the Israeli courts. A friend of mine who works for the Palestinian cause in Israel says that the progressives in Israel want these Arabs to take their issues through the Israeli court system to establish precedence, but they are reluctant to do so, because to do so would legitimize Israel.

Israel is a true democracy, but like most it is imperfect, and just because the majority rules, doesn't mean the majority always rules in the best way.

[Just Me]

43. Why didn't they give up Texas to give a State to Israel?

We are a HUGE country. Couldn't we give them a "State" here? :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. You want the horrible truth?

From my personal history, the US at the end of WW II wanted them filthy refugess as much as any other country on earth, which is NOT much.

[TomClash]

48. That's why there are millions of Ashkenazi jews living in New York

Your "truth" is incorrect.